MGTOWs: We’re all about crushing women’s egos, which makes us basically Gandhi, if you think about it

@Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger

How can we get incels to “go”? We need as much banning as possible as any website which encourages cult-like behaviour of men who have trouble with romance. Does no good to anyone what-so ever

And I think its a healthy hill to die on. Lots of women and men never become intimate but live very happy lives

@Mish:

(Late reply!) Hello! I’ve been pretty well, yes, just caught up in waves of undergraduate work since we’re getting to the end of the term now. I’ve still been lurking around, I just have so many papers to write in such little time. I also think I caught a mild cold over the past few days. I hope you’ve been doing well too?

I notice this thread has caught some outside attention, apparently –

@An on:

First thing, “don’t feed the trolls” is inevitably bound to fail as a long-term solution. The point of engaging with a troll isn’t, in most cases, to change the opinion of the troll. In fact, this extends to many online arguments in general, in particular of a political nature because you’re very unlikely to change the mind of someone who is entrenched in their views by just arguing directly with them. You’re not arguing to convince them, you’re arguing to convince the people who will be reading from the sidelines, who might not have already come to a conclusion on whatever you’re discussing. In the case of arguing with trolls more specifically, you’re arguing to highlight how ridiculous their positions are and, for some people, to have a bit of fun ridiculing and mocking them.

You might say that it’s obvious a troll’s position will be ridiculous; that’s why they’re called trolls, after all. However, the line between a troll and a sincere believer is razor-thin, and in fact it’s highly unlikely that a troll doesn’t believe in what they’re arguing at least a little. Moreover, when we get commenters like Feministguy here, it points to something very deserving of examination: toxic masculinity. Whether Fguy is sincere or not, his opinions are ones sincerely expressed by many other men across the world, even ones who typically identify themselves as progressive.

To use an anecdotal example, finding this website in the wake of #GatorGrates did wonders for educating me on all the invisible ways the patriarchal system had instilled really shitty views in me when I was growing up. Lurking around here and reading the very insightful posts, many of which were made by people who still visit this website to this day, helped me to reflect upon some of the things I believed and helped me to recognize how when I was younger, I had held some opinions that were very similar to the average Nice Guy TM. Without the people here, it would’ve taken much longer for me even to be exposed to intersectional feminism, and also much longer to recognize just how many ways society privileges me simply for the circumstances of my birth.

As a statistic, perhaps I’m an outlier, but that still isn’t something which can simply be ignored. Everyone who comes to this website espousing ideas like Fguy, or indeed the Gators of a few years ago, shows to people like me how absurd the reactionary perspective can get, and why it’s important to understand and support intersectional feminism.

Now, second part:

I never got the appeal of being “nice”.

If you’ll permit me to take this perhaps to a different context than you were intending, the channer mentality of “fuck your feelings” is one of the worst things the internet has ever perpetuated. Many people have said this before more eloquently than I can, but people who proclaim themselves to be “brutally honest” are almost universally more interested in the “brutal” part than the “honest” one.

There’s value in aggressively refusing to take someone’s shit. The people here on this website display that every time we get a new (or in many cases old) reactionary troll. Which, in fact, plays into the earlier topic of “feeding the troll”. Most of the time, trolls don’t just get bored if you ignore them. In some cases, they’ll even try to call in some of their friends to help them out. On a grander scale than this blog alone this can frequently be seen by the movements of reactionaries on Reddit when they brigade threads in subreddits that make them mad. Their entire modus operandi is to overwhelm the comments section; if the website/forum has a strict policy against derailment, then I suppose you can call the regular userbase engaging with trolls a “victory” on the part of the trolls, though I would argue that’s a victory in only the most Pyrrhic of ways. WHTM, as far as I know, does not have a policy which discourages derailing, and many threads naturally wander off into topics entirely unrelated to the actual post within the second or third page. Thus it’s well within the normal boundaries of a thread for people to engage with trolls when they pop up here.

To go back to the original idea, though, there’s also great value in “being nice” to people. Perhaps not to the trolls since it doesn’t particularly matter how you respond to them, they’ll often eventually start complaining about how mean you are anyway. But aside from that, it just seems like it would be very draining to maintain hostility toward everyone around you, every day. And what do you gain from it? Some people hold the mindset that niceness is artificial, and by being “brutally honest” as I have previously established, they’re being more honest both to themselves and to the people they interact with, but is that truly the case? Or is it simply the atmosphere which online communities like 4chan have fostered?

I should mention at this point that I was a regular user on another website for around seven years until just recently finally leaving it. This website was at the foreground of the aforementioned #GatorGrate “movement”, and its userbase was forever changed by the administration allowing that sort of reactionary ideology to take root in the forums. Over time, I became more and more notorious to the users for being a very mean and militant left-wing SJW (and I will admit, after they put in a sub-forum that was essentially rule-free, I did write significantly more caustically against certain people and ideas). I was often told that if I was just nicer to people, they’d be more willing to agree with me; I would always contend that that perspective was bullshit, because if my ideas were worth agreeing with as many people implied they were, it shouldn’t matter how nicely I presented them. This is all to say that I’m not approaching the value of being nice to people from some wholesome “treat others the way you wish to be treated” perspective. I treat people nicely when I respect them, and I believe it’s respectful to treat people with niceness. Many people will say that it’s not very difficult to be nice to people and while I don’t disagree with that, I’ll state that it’s also incredibly easy to just be an asshole to people. Channers aren’t breaking any new grounds when it comes to social interactions.

(Unfortunately this is not the paper I need to write. Oops.)

Thanks, @EJ (TOO)!

While I’m thinking about it, I should amend the first part to state that some people do hope to convince the person they’re arguing with directly. The more tangible benefit still tends to be in convincing onlooking parties, but of course if someone is arguing a position in good faith, they would want to hope the other person is arguing in good faith as well.

Should be, although that brings into question – who’s values? Mine or yours? 😛

However – “Be nice” seems to too often be a code phrase telling the person with less power (women in this particular case, but you think on it you’ll see it happens to others as well – coloured, children, disabled, and yes, men – in different situations) to sit down, shut up and take whatever crap you’re given.

@dslucia

As a mostly lurker here to that came from the same website you did. I want to thank you for putting into words alot of what I myself would say. We Hunted the Mammoth took me from a somewhat okay guy with internalized misogyny to someone who has cut most of it out with a scapel.

Gamergate was a huge wakeup call for me. Especially the slut shaming my wife received for daring to be a lewd cosplay model (that of course meant she was cheating on my constantly like the beta cuck I was according to them )

And so many gatekeepers… I mean gamergaters hated this site with a passion so I decided to check it out. Now it’s a regular stop on the internet for me while I only check that escaping site when I get bored.

I want to thank everyone in this community for what you do.

@dslucia

That was a damn fine post. When I first started commenting here, I did sometimes think along those lines of “omg why bother with certain people; it’s so pointless” but I came to think differently, particularly when a regular Mammotheer (it was wwth or Paradoxical Intention) noted that their responses were more for lurkers or bystanders than for the actual people they were arguing with. That struck a giant chord.

Take care of yourself – busy end of term is unavoidable, but it can leave you more vulnerable to mental and/or physical ill-health (as I’m sure you know).
I’d love to hear more about your studies when/if you feel up to it 🙂

@DawnPurityseeker, that could be all sorts of things, as simple as dehydration and anxiety or as complex as, well, as nasty things. I’d suggest talking to a doctor about it. (And, uh, no more drinking like that, too)

<3 feel better soon, my duck! Avoid caffeine, try to get some water in you, stay calm and still. I get that way with panic attacks sometime.

EDIT: That was a great post, dslucia. Really good! There’s a lot of value in “niceness”, and quite often when someone says that their meanness is just about being “honest” they’re just using that as an excuse to not put the work in. Considering others when you communicate is important, and there doesn’t have to be any implication of lying when you’re being nice. A good topic to write about, that.

So much great stuff here!

1. kupo, thanks so much for the comment about what feministguy said about the cancer ward. I lost both parents to cancer and found it hurtful and offensive. I also find it telling that feministguy has completely ignored everything said about that here.

2. wwth, I’m so often amazed at the kindness and restraint you show to newbies and trolls. I’m an impatient person and try to emulate your behavior (with mixed results! ;p)

3. Axe, you are just wonderfulness. I’ve made peace with my ace-ness because of you, too. Mine is probably hormonal since it came on during perimenopause and I mentally fought it only because it was different from what the rest of my life has been. Reading you and the other ace folk here enabled me to have a think about it and conclude that it’s okay to feel the way I feel, if that makes any sense.

4. I still have to suss out the comments about being nice. I’ve never considered myself to be nice; I consider myself to be reasonable. Maybe my confusion is between niceness and kindness?

These are what stand out to me today and this is not to gloss over everyone else’s wonderful contributions. I love you all!

Alcohol intolerance is also a thing

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alcohol-intolerance/symptoms-causes/syc-20369211

Although as the link notes, the issue can be an allergy or intolerance to something the alcohol is made with. Like wheat or corn.

I’ve gotten tremors and vomiting from just dehydration. Also, from anxiety. The symptoms suggest hyper-activation of the autonomic system, and a lot can cause that. Caffeine, DT as you mention, etc.

Don’t panic about it too much! Do see a doctor and tell them. They’ll be able to screen out a lot of the causes right quick. Otherwise? Go drink a big glass of water and chill out a bit; there are no worlds where that’s a bad idea. I like hot water with a bit of lemon in! It helps.

Water is good. Taking some B complex is good too. Alcohol does a real number on your ability to take up and use B vitamins.

Respectfully, my friend, you are talking to an alcoholic here.

respectfully then you should know that DTs is emergency situation and a scarey thing to say. I feel what you said to dawn is scarey and patronising, which I think is not okay because they said they are already panicking. they only asked of others have experienced it before not for any diagnosis, and even if they asked for diagnosis we can’t really give any with so small amount of information. basically, my point is same as what kupo and scild said there is many many things it could be, and already here we have the agreement that we don’t internet diagnose – so I think we should respect that and not say things that can worry people more.

Hello everyone. This thread has been an interesting and informative read. Thank you all! I have some anecdotal things I’d like to add

1. Adverse post-alcohol effects. I used to drink heavily and feel ashamed of how I behaved frequently so when I did eventually stop drinking except on rare social occasions, I felt the alcohol itself triggered feelings of anxiety, even though I had been positively genial and not even significantly intoxicated. Not every time, but often enough that I noticed. I don’t know if it is a thing I am stuck with now or need help with because I never feel inclined to drink so I’m not really dealing with it. Thinking about it or ‘having to’ drink alcohol also makes me feel a bit anxious, as does typing this. I’m not sure what my point was anymore.

2. Incel mind-set as seen here. Before I knew about the manosphere, I saw a commenter lamenting about (‘women don’t like sex so much, they like xyz, but men like sex so it’s unfair’ ‘women reject men but look hot on purpose. It’s an injustice I tells ya!!’) and it was quite clear only one type of woman (the ones they find attractive) is even visible to a hell of a lot of these clowns. I mean, that can be a fairly obvious thing to see when we view society but I hadn’t really thought about it. They literally disregard huge swathes of the female population. The ones who acknowledge ‘unattractive-to-them’ women exist are literally angry at the women for deliberately existing outside of their boner-pleasing parameters

3. Women and ‘their criteria’. Though external factors influence most humans, in similar or differing ways, it is safe to assume that each woman is an autonomous being on their own journey through existence. I considered 5/7 of my boyfriends to be actively physically unattractive until I developed an attraction to them through our interactions and then they became the most beautiful person in the world to me. One of them I realised I suddenly had a crush on when his left eyebrow lifted in response to a near-miss in a computer game about asteroids trajectories we were playing together. These things generally happen by having many interactions and friendships with people who you have no sexual designs on whatsoever. Respecting people and enjoying their company for that in itself is what I recommend to everyone, even if they ARE ‘attractive’ (we don’t really do ‘dating’ in the UK really, unless it’s become a thing without my knowledge). In fact, one of my boyfriends who I did think was a good-looking man, I didn’t feel any attraction towards until after months of knowing him. I’ve known plenty of men I thought were good-looking
but were never even slightly attracted to. They are 2 entirely separate things to me and a lot of other people (including women)

4. Dealing with ‘dangerous incels’. Although I admire the sentiment of trying to counsel people and help them be happy/reduce risk to potential victims, telling someone who desperately wants love/sex that ‘Alas, my friend, that life is not for you or I! Make peace in yourself that thou shall never find companionship, for we are flawed and monstrous beasts, condemned to walk this Earth alone. Be us then stoic! Be us the unsung heroes of the shadows, protecting the women who wish not for our touch, from villainous demons that prowl in their wake!’ (sorry, I got carried away) is not especially constructive. Getting them to acknowledge and accept some of the points I made in part 3 seems ideal to me because it is a deeply flawed (and frankly, insulting, as outlined in this thread) understanding of women to assume that there is no-one who could possibly love you. You need to deal with the misconceptions you hold regarding women (listening to them helps!!) and try to actually understand there is a variety (if you are too heavily focusing on a specific ‘type’) of people who you could find happiness with.

TL:DR
Crushing someone’s bitterness and trying to replace it with stoicism doesn’t solve the root of the problem, the problem being a flaw in their understanding of the world and their behaviour in regards to pursuit of their goals.

I learnt a new word ‘ace’! I’ve always thought Sherlock Holmes is ace. I was wondering if anyone else agrees.