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actual mammoths antifeminism bad science men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny whaaaaa?

We Extincted the Mammoth to Male-Genocide You

The last mammoth

By David Futrelle

So over on Tumblr, some people were having a nice little discussion of how amazing it is that our ancient ancestors were able to figure out some rather complicated sciencey things, like the circumference of the earth, without being able to just look them up on Google.

Someone mentioned mammoths, those oft-hunted beasts that not only co-existed with our hairier prehistoric predecessors but managed to survive, at least in some remote areas, for several thousand years after humans first became civilized.

Then someone called Brett Caton showed up. He began innocently enough.

“I find it utterly bizarre that humans saw these megafauna,” he wrote, before linking to a New York Times story about the last known population of mammoths that went extinct. According to one scientific paper quoted in the story, these mammoths, living on isolated Wrangel island in the arctic sea north of eastern Siberia, had “carried so many detrimental mutations [in their genome] that the population had suffered a ‘genomic meltdown.'”

Then Mr. Caton’s comment took a bit of a turn.

“That ‘genomic meltdown’ is one of the reasons feminism is so potentially lethal,” he wrote,

because they keep pushing for asexual reproduction, or trying to combine ovaries, when the most likely outcome is a population running about – unable to reproduce sexually since the whole “male genocide” bit – with incredibly damaged chromosomes. 

Sex exists for a reason, and no, “because it’s fun” is not the answer, sorry. It works better than reproduction otherwise. Which is why every complex species uses it. 

Intelligence requires a lot of things to be working correctly, and if you have an all female species that is over the tipping point of idiocy, then there won’t be enough people to maintain the technology to continue to reproduce. And humans will go the way of the Wrangel beasties.

Fortunately, feminists are horribly lazy bastards, so i doubt they’ll continue to get their way, but it does made for a decent plot for a dystopian fiction…

Mr. Caton’s comment raises a number of questions, including:

  1. Huh?
  2. What?
  3. What the hell?
  4. Does this dude think the Wrangel island mammoths were, like, the world’s first hairy legged feminists?

As it turns out, I’m not the only one with questions. Caton’s post has so far garnered 154,000 “notes” on Tumblr, and comes trailing a long and ever-expanding string of comments from other people as confused as I am. “Whaaaaaaaa???” wrote one. “W-what??” asked another.

Still another added:

I got to that point … and was like “wait What.” And then it just kept going and I was like “is this actually happening? Am I seriously reading this right now??”

It is. You are. Apparently we feminists extincted the mammoth to male genocide you.

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Shadowplay
2 years ago

@EJ,

Thought you knew! Otherwise I’d have mentioned it here – I tweeted it the night before, but I didn’t bother with here because I figured everyone was up on the story.

It was a little different to a lot of demos – a bit over dramatic (I do hate die ins for various reasons, mainly that a carpet of bodies is something I’m trained to prevent if at all possible! We retreated to a pub around then for a swift half.) and, I dunno, uncynical?
Not innocent, but … they really, honestly and deeply believe that it’ll make a difference.
That were quite refreshing.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

I wonder why it was the Parkland shooting that triggered this political movement? Not the one before it, not the one after it, but that specific one? Just a straw-that-broke-the-camel’s-back sort of thing?

Would that the very first one had been the one to make enough people decide “enough is enough” to get serious about doing something …

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@Surplus
This time the media actually republished what the kids were saying about it on social media. Plus just the right number of right-wingers went just too far enough in their victim blaming and “truther” conspiracy theories that it made people angry enough. That anger was amplified by the voices of teens who were not yet numb enough to it like the adults have become. Just my thoughts on it, anyway.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

Smashing ovaries together sounds extremely painful. I’ve read that a blow to an ovary would be comparable in pain to a blow to a testicle. Good thing ovaries are internal.

About 10 years ago, I had one of my ovaries removed. The reason: Dermoid cysts. Once the morphine wore off, I was in serious pain. Time for a couple of Percocets.

I’m in awe of the young people demonstrating for gun control. It makes me hopeful for the future. Also, it makes me feel a little jealous, and inadequate. It would have never occurred to me, when I was young, to demonstrate for anything. Who would have cared, or even listened? I was way too diffident and unsure of myself. Plus, there’s power in numbers, and mine was a small generation.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

There’s also a general climate of backlash against the right wing. It’s all of a sudden socially acceptable to be outspoken about social justice issues and I love it.

I’ve noticed that reflected in media aimed at young people too. My generation of young people weren’t that engaged politically and the cooler thing was to not care about it all. I’ve never been ostracized for my views because I live in a progressive city, but I always had to specifically seek out people I could about politics with because most people were not interested. On teen TV shows and movies only the nerds and weirdos were political. The cool kids never were. Except I suppose Jessie on Saved by the Bell. But even though she was still a popular kid, she was despite being political and her feminism was of the most obnoxious strawman variety possible. Opposing sexism was her silly quirk. But I think that’s changing. I’ve been watching Riverdale and that show covers a variety of political issues and all the characters are engaged with those issues. All the characters are clearly intended to be seen as cool. If it weren’t early I could probably think of more media aimed at teens that is like this.

tl;dr I’m so glad to see young people getting involved on a large scale like this. I don’t know if it’s down to a change in the media or if the media is responding to a change in kids but whatever is happening I like it.

Hambeast
Hambeast
2 years ago

Surplus and Kupo – Also, I think a big part was that these students were prepared by their school to take their message to mass media and social media to intelligently and articulately tell the world how they felt.

Plus, the right wing/NRA talking points that always get dragged out seemed to have lost their mojo all of a sudden. No one was buying “thoughts and prayers,” “don’t politicize tragedy,” and “it’s too sooooon!” anymore.

re: the right-wingers going just too far enough, I saw an article online about a pundit who said that if it weren’t for these outspoken students’ friends and classmates getting shot, no one would know who they are!

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

@WWTH: There most definitely has been a change in attitude. About teen-oriented pop culture: I was watching some clips from the ’80s movie “Revenge of the Nerds” a few days ago. This film couldn’t, and wouldn’t, be made today. The jocks and sorority sisters would be considered uncool today, and the nerds would be the cool ones.

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

Hambeast, yeah. Colion Noir.

He’s a piece of work.

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

Dormousing: and that’s not even getting into the really unfortunate implications with the rape-by-deception.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

Just thought people might find this interesting.
comment image

(Personally, I can vouch for point 6)

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

Haha, that’s so sad!

Actually, when I worked in nursing way back a 100-year-old lady advised me on how to get as old as she was:
1. Don’t smoke
2. Don’t drink
3. Don’t marry
I only got 1 right.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw: Heh. It’s far too late for me.

Mooncustafer
Mooncustafer
2 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

I seem to remember a quote from the 1930s or ‘40s that referenced #6, so it may have stuck around as a catchphrase for a while.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

From what I understand part of the momentum is that this time it was not an elementary school that got shot up so the people directly affected are the ones making the noise rather then their parents,
I could draw parallels to how autism is handled in the news as an issue that parents should address on their own when the victims of violence are young children (and parents not directly victimized themselves are likely to try to just move on with their lives then do any activism),
but now they have a bunch of politically active photogenic teens making lot of noise in the streets who are going to go away any time soon.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

I’m also seeing more politicization of media directed at adults. Shows like Timeless seem to be leaning noticeably left instead of being “bland centrist neoliberal” like nearly all shows seemed to be until recently (leaving aside, obviously, the Murdoch-sponsored right wing propaganda found on Fox News and every educational cable channel the Murdochs could buy or steal).

It seems a tug of war for control of the Overton window might have developed.

1. Don’t smoke
2. Don’t drink
3. Don’t marry

I seem to have that down pat … unless having the occasional bag of wine gums violates #2.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

#3 sounds like marital advice from Carl Sandburg. What is a Yard-Swiller?

Shadowplay
2 years ago

What is a Yard-Swiller

What it sounds like. Cleans (swills) the yard (not a garden, as you may think, but a space, usually paved, between the house and the outbuildings – toilet, coal shed etc).

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

Bear with me:

So, here’s the situation with the Wrangle Island mammoths. They were isolated, they were comparatively few in number, and they wound up stuck in a out-of-the-way geographical corner of the earth with no exit strategy. The composite result was that their genetic errors multiplied without stint because there was no counterweight or genetic corrective to counteract them. The Wrangel Island mammoths had no way of re-merging with the greater (meaning larger) body of their species. {Feel free to insert elephant pun.} Which was a recipe for genetic disaster. Right?

Okay, so here’s the situation with the manospherians:

1. They’re isolated (by choice, most of them would argue…but still, they’re isolated).
2. They’re comparatively few in number. (Whenever they condescend to try to hold a rally this immediately becomes apparent.) It’s true that they’re incredibly noisy and that they get more publicity than they should. It’s also true that they’ve garnered more public influence than they deserve (value judgement, but what the heck). Nevertheless, their name is not legion. They don’t fill stadiums. They can’t fill public squares. (For this reason, Trump’s inauguration was their signature shindig — just as they claim — in more than one sense.)
3. They’re stuck (voluntarily, most of them would argue, but still, they’re stuck) up in their own treehouse and they can’t or won’t come down. They’ve got no exit strategy; whenever they’re proven wrong (which is often) their only result is to move further and further out into the Red Pill Boonies.
4. As a result, their errors (not genetic errors in this case, just errors) multiply without limit or stint. Memes coming from the outside may be seized upon and subverted, but for the most part they simply aren’t welcome. There is no corrective and no counterweight is wanted, asked for, or sought. What happens in the long run is that the same bone-dumb notions cycle around and around a vacant center, like clothes in a wash-machine or dryer or water corkscrewing down a drain.
5. Most of the inhabitants of the manosphere scorn Normies. It might be possible for them to rejoin the main body of their kind, but they have no intention of doing it. (That’s the official version, anyway.)

The situation of Wrangel Island mammoths is now acknowledged to have been a genetic disaster. How is the situation of men in the manosphere, self-sought or not, not a memetic disaster? Substitute “memes” in the second case for the “genes” of the first and you’ll come away with a very discouraging view of the future of the Men’s Rights movement as it now exists. (What a pity.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

I always like it when Mammoth gets into discussions about actual Mammoths.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@bekabot

I was completely with you until ” … you’ll come away with a very discouraging view of the future of the Men’s Rights movement …”

Discouraging isn’t the word I’d use. 😛

Side note: love your gravatar. Always makes me giggle.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

Side note: love your gravatar. Always makes me giggle.

I’m glad you like it, but I should replace it for truth-in-advertising reasons: I look older than that now. (No less grumpy, though.)

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Age cannot wither, nor custom stale, her infinte sideeye.

jy3
jy3
2 years ago

@bekabot
A problem with that reasoning is that lethal genetic errors tend to have a smaller minimum safe distance than lethal memetic errors (see: mass shootings, prejudice-based violence), so the latter has less selective pressure against it if the physically reachable population is memetically heterogenous.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

Age cannot wither, nor custom stale, her infinte sideeye.

Aww.

…lethal genetic errors tend to have a smaller minimum safe distance than lethal memetic errors…so the latter has less selective pressure against it if the physically reachable population is memetically heterogenous.

jy3, are you saying that the manospherians are in worse shape than the mammoths were? (Because if you are, I sure don’t know enough to argue with you.)

jy3
jy3
2 years ago

@bekabot
Exactly the opposite. What I mean is that genetic errors tend to only affect the being with them, while memetic errors can affect beings that don’t, so there’s less comparative disadvantage to having memetic errors.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

What I mean is that genetic errors tend to only affect the being with them, while memetic errors can affect beings that don’t, so there’s less comparative disadvantage to having memetic errors.

That’s true of the individual (if I understand you correctly), but is it true of the group? Arguably, genetic errors only affect the organism which is saddled with them, but memetic errors can more easily affect a whole faction or division of people. Does the comparative advantage an individual with a memetic error holds over an individual beset with a memetic error also apply to the group, where the error is that much more widely distributed? If there’s more of a comparative disadvantage to having cystic fibrosis than to having the Spanish Flu, does that make the Spanish Flu less dangerous?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

o_o

So, in considering the mammosphere-manosphere connection, and in considering the manosphere from a memetic viewpoint, we can consider the manosphere an isolated population?

Oh dear

That’s possibly quite true! The “incel” variant of the MRA memeplex seems to carry a weaker transmissive payload than the MRA/PUA variants, and also carries an isolating factor to preserve itself. I think they *all* have that sort of a factor to a degree really, but incels specifically seem to have more of it. Enough that the more lethal and/or deleterious memes could develop.

Related to the tendency to spawn violence ideation and behaviour? Hm.

That’s all really interesting. I’m gonna have to have a think. Thank you!

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Well, obviously group disadvantages would prompt group selection, say of social mechanisms to counteract errant memes. This could take a crude, simple, and generally unpleasant form (e.g. the Bible as received wisdom, and heresy punishable by death) or a more sophisticated form that allows for changes but vets them heavily (e.g. science textbooks as received wisdom, and peer review as the bar to hurdle to get what’s in the textbooks changed … but also e.g. Lysenkoism as received wisdom, and political review by the Soviet politburo as the bar to hurdle. But note that, in the end, both the Spanish inquisition and the Soviet politburo had relatively brief tenures on this Earth, on the order of a century apiece, while science has been marching on for several of those and counting. Both too much truth-relativism and too rigid truth-guardianship seem to ultimately be maladaptive at group level).

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

I should review my policy of reading the latest comment first and working backwards. Because I totally misinterpreted “mammosphere”.

occasional reader
occasional reader
2 years ago

Hello.

Well, as Caton the Elder was saying : Delenda est Carthago.
And as Caton the Brett is saying : Delenda sunt cogitatio et scientia.

Have a nice day.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

@kupo

This time the media actually republished what the kids were saying about it on social media. Plus just the right number of right-wingers went just too far enough in their victim blaming and “truther” conspiracy theories that it made people angry enough. That anger was amplified by the voices of teens who were not yet numb enough to it like the adults have become. Just my thoughts on it, anyway.

You’ve got the rub of it, but I think there’s a couple other crucial details that separate Sandy Hook from Parkland. Sandy Hook took place just two weeks prior to Christmas and about a month after America dodged the Romney bullet–it was the perfect time when people are just winding down to relax and turn their attentions to their own families, which couldn’t really be avoided given the culture and zeitgeist. America had just gone through an exhausting presidential election and the pressures of the holiday season bearing down on us meant that all of us had precious little mental energy left to dedicate to a new and even more exhausting fight.

Parkland taking place on Valentine’s Day after the first year of President Dipshit’s rule meant we had plenty of post-holiday energy to devote to the cause championed by people who were there. It wasn’t just an abstraction from grieving parents holding studio portraits of little kids the same way they would after an amber alert, it was the social-media-savvy teenagers who were actually there to describe in horrific detail the ordeal they had just gone through and broadcast it to millions to retweet and retweet and send directly to Congresspeople.

Secondly, the idea of “crisis actors” was a brand new conspiracy concept in 2012 that we weren’t sure how widespread it would be. This was when Alex Jones was just a bit player and a couple of fringe assholes were going around stealing memorial signs to the Sandy Hook kids. We were ready for it in February of 2018 and with Alex Jones’ fanbase basically being the MAGA-CHUDs, knew exactly how widespread that conspiracy theory would be through the right-wing rank and file. And these kids telling in detail their ordeal was the perfect antidote to “they’re just actors.”

It was telling when the NRA spokesghoul’s only retort to the marches this weekend was “nobody would know who you kids are if your classmates didn’t die!” As if attention is the world’s only sensible ambition. As if this is how they wanted to get famous. As if they wanted any kind of national spotlight to take away from their passions and studies. The NRA knows its losing this fight and losing it hard, because that’s the response of somebody who’s got no answer to the Parkland teens. None.

dawnpurityseeker
dawnpurityseeker
2 years ago

@WWTH

“I’ve been watching Riverdale and that show covers a variety of political issues and all the characters are engaged with those issues.”

Not to pick on you, but since you mentioned Riverdale as making political statements; isn’t Riverdale the show that has thrown all kinds of abuse, and now gay conversion therapy, at one of its bisexual characters? Since you actually watch the show, I’m curious as to what you make of that? Personally, I’m trying to withhold judgment until I watch it, but honestly I still can’t help but feel squicked out by it.

@misophistry

dawnpurityseeker all this talk of stamen is making my ovipositors twitchy.

ovipositors

You…you beast! *giggle*

@EJ

“I am a flower who does not want to be fucking cut, so I shall ensure my complete truthfulness, and shall keep my stamen to myself.”

Awww, bee orchards are really cool. Just one more weird, completely messed up way of having sex in this world. 🙂

I honestly would love to see a manosperian try to work bee orchards into their worldview. And why wouldn’t they? If dudebros think that what happened to the mammoths is applicable to human feeeemales, even after we have the technology to produce babies from “smashing ovaries”*, then why wouldn’t the mating strategies of female plants be applicable to us as well? After all, imperfect flowers are solely feeeeeeeeeeemale, and as we all know, feeeeeeemales are completely the same when it comes to our drive for reproducion, right? So why not? 9_9

(Unless “reproduction” means using already invented technology to make babies, like in the OP. Of course feeeemales wouldn’t be able to technology! I guess we’d all just have to die out. ☹)

@Dvärghundspossen

“So we seem to be pretty far from the dreaded point in time where da feminazis have made this the standard method of reproduction.”

More recently we’ve been trying to make sperm and egg cells from the stem cells produced from skin and other cells. This would allow infertile people to produce healthy gametes, same sex couples to produce children 100% biologically related to both parents, and quiverfull people to produce children literally until the end of time. So some pretty powerful technology.

https://medium.com/neodotlife/same-sex-reproduction-artificial-gametes-2739206aa4c0

*Smashing pumpkins all female tribute band, anyone?

Biff
Biff
2 years ago

The red pill is a hell of a drug.