“Ethnostate rape gangs” and other treats the “American fascists” in Patriot Front want to bring to women

I am enjoying this discussion, and will comment, but before I do I wanted to pop in with a quick little note. @Female Yid, you’re coming across as very aggressive. You might find that your comments get more traction if you were to take a less authoritative tone with your writing.

Oh yeah, and not SHOUTING SOMEONE’S NAME when they ask you to use it properly. You know, basic stuff like that.

Hey, Moderation Mammoth. New email address, long story. Anyway…

1)Whether communism ‘works’ depends on one’s definition of communism. And fuck tankies
2)Murican Xtians aren’t necessarily fascists. Nor even Murican evangelical Xtians. White Murican evangelical Xtians tho… Only a Sith deals in absolutes, but…
3)I’m black. I’ve literally 0 patience for ‘they don’t hate you, they’re just paternalistic’ ?
4)Sup, @Katie. To answer your question, it definitely coulda been that bad. And it was. But, this is important, there’s a difference between being unable to see and not seeing. You see it now, so you have the ability, you just weren’t given the right tools/lenses. Nobody, not even black folk, is born woke. And growing up in fuckin Tribeca will keep you sleep for sure ?

A fascinating article.

@ dvärghundspossen

This is probably what they were talking about:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214150132.htm
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

I’m from a Nordic country, generally assumed to be a woman, and in one of the more male dominated STEM fields. I can say I’ve felt the pressure to get out very strongly at times.

I’m convinced all this has a lot to do with the gender divide in politics and values, and the corresponding political and value coding in different fields of study. There are way more conservative folks in tech and physics. The lefties are in environmental sciences, social sciences, and arts. Biology & health sciences, law, and economics & business seem to be somewhere in between.

I’m going to say people choose the groups they think they’ll be comfortable living among and identifying with and whose values they agree with. I’m also going to say that what a teenage person’s interests are has way more to do with these group associations than talent.

And they’re really, really smart to do so. They have their priorities straight and will live happier lives as a result. I envy those comrades who haven’t had to sell their souls to work in their fields (tech is basically Satan let’s face it), and I envy anyone who can say for sure they’ve ever come face to face with another feminist (lean in types do not count) within their work/academic community.

@ Starfury

Someone has said to me that in the ‘more equal’ countries (specifically the different Scandinavian models) women gravitate towards more traditional female roles in the workplace, as opposed to countries with greater oppression of women where they go into STEM professions more. The point being made was that where women have greater independence and freedom of choice they ‘naturally’ gravitate towards ‘lady-jobs’.

I also see this argument a lot (Especially in comments on articles re: James Damore. Uhg that manifesto is infuriating to me and the perfect Rorschach test for how well someone understands privilege)

Taking the claim at face value (I haven’t delved into the data but don’t find it implausible), this probably has a lot to do with work culture and whether or not your country has adequate social welfare. The US is known for strongly associating job title with prestige, and we have a terrible social safety nets. As such women here are motivated to and at times have no choice but to fight gender stereotypes to earn a living wage, because in the traditional gender role they perform much more unpaid labor, and “lady jobs” tend to pay less (lots of studies support this)

In countries with a large social safety net, women can more easily fall into traditional gender roles because there is less financial pressure

Tl;Dr capitalism and patriarchy intersect in interesting ways

@Female Yid: Most reactionaries are quite capable of both claiming, believing and performing love when it comes to their closest female relatives and partners, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t reactionary shitheels, religious or not, just that they are even more cognitively dissonant than those whose actions mirror their ideologies more clearly.

And concerning Communism, a-hierarchical Communists (AKA Socialist Anarchists of all stripes, colours and names), have always denounced the wrongdoings of the Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge and assorted other authoritarians who’ve dressed up their barbarity in Red. Don’t expect those of us who advocate full dismantling of patriarchal, imperialist capitalism as being receptive to being called uneducated or unknowing of the past, because we basically do nothing but discuss the past to formulate a better way into our collective future.

@Diego Duarte: Not to diminish the scope of Sexual Assault in Sweden, but it is indeed closely tied to being underreported in most countries that Sweden is usually compared to, and that there is a much more thorough discussion of sexual violence and sexism in general in Sweden than in the rest of the Nordic countries. Indeed, a common dog-whistle for Danish Misogynists and Racists is their insistence on “Swedish Conditions” being a society overly sensitive to exaggerated and outlandish claims by women and minorities, basically a term used to smear feminists and antiracists, basically an older version of SJW’s Run Amok(tm).

Concerning far-right extremism in the Nordic Countries, there’s a lot of common ground, but also significant differences. I won’t include Finland in this, as there are distinct differences culturally, historically and politically, between Finland and the rest of Scandinavia. First, the history differs: Denmark and Norway were occupied by Nazi Germany, and while they were not treated identically, they were terrorized less openly than most other countries occupied. Sweden was never occupied, and enjoyed an uneasy peace with Germany. Although there was a lot of anti-nazi sentiments, there were also alot of business’ who did rather well, and for many, the war represented an economic boon. This in turn translated to a history of resistance against nazism in Norway and Denmark, although the actual participation in active resistance has been wildly exaggerated in the public discourse following the war, as well as trial and sentencing of collaborators. In Sweden, there has been less of a reckoning, meaning that there has been more of an underground acceptance to National Socialist theory. In Denmark, the projected self-image as having been on the right side of the war is very prolific, but ultimately flawed, as most people seemd happy to just get on with their lives, as long as the occupation didn’t affect them personally. This means that many danes are incredibly blind to issues of race, as they believe themselves to be beyond this on account of our history. This may be less the case in Norway, as they were treated noticeably harsher by the occupiers, as the resistance was more forceful in Norway.

In a danish context, this makes it possible for the governing parties and the so-called opposition, to scapegoat muslim immigrants and refugees, while they dismantle the collective welfare that was origianlly spurred on by the Social Democrats and a strong, organized workers movement.

TL/DR: The Nordic Countries are being messed up by regressive politicians, are not as tolerant as you(or we ourselves) believed.

It seemed like he was actually trying to blackmail Canada and Mexico to get his way on NAFTA. Did anyone else get that impression.

Get out of my head, please. That were my exact thought (almost word for word). 😛

It’s pure Mafia business – “nice steel industry you got there, shame if someone tariffs it to oblivion.” The “suspension” of applying the tariffs to Canada and Mexico only drives the point home deeper.

Did anyone watch Trump’s tariff press conference? It seemed like he was actually trying to blackmail Canada and Mexico to get his way on NAFTA. Did anyone else get that impression. He claimed originally that he wanted to get rid of cheating from China, but then he praised Xi Jinping talking about what a great guy he was. He didn’t praise any other leaders. Then he said our allies were the ones cheating us.

Well, not sure you’ve heard about this but México has started negotiating trade policies with Argentina and Perú, ever since Trump got elected. They’re gearing up to give the US the middle finger and go full nuclear on a trade war. They’re looking to be less reliant in regards to trade with the USA.

And naturally, since we’re Latino brethren we’re backing them up. Anything that Trump does is going to come back and bite him in the ass. Unfortunately, many innocent people are going to suffer higher prices because of him.

@(A)utonomist Escapist

Thanks for the insightful comments. It was a very interesting read.

I think to people who grew up in cities, this sort of unbridled bigotry seems brand new, but I grew up in Pennsyltucky, and as a white person who racist white people have felt comfortable showing their racism to, this shit is not rare at all. My school had maybe one black kid in it. One time a black guy visited the school and talked to my teacher, and some kids were making jokes about getting out their white pointy hats. There’s a reason no black people lived in my hometown. Rural Pennsylvania will give the old southern racism a run for its money, let me tell you that.

Only now have I had the chance to work with people who are as liberal as me, and it’s great. I’ve been fortunate in that my parents are pretty liberal (my mother is more economically liberal than she is socially liberal, but at least she didn’t vote for Trump and she always rants about him when I’m home). But to see city journalists go into rural places with a mic in hand, dying to talk to and get that “country wisdom” from Trump voters is embarassing. There’s no reason they voted for Trump beyond racism– trust me. And it’s not a “poor white person” thing, because rich white people felt perfectly comfortable voting for him as well. Articles like this one about Johnstown was a great example of how awful journalism is in regards to journalists from liberal cities trying to “understand” po’ white folk, completely ignoring a) all the black people that live in Johnstown and b)acting as if poor white people are the problem, when much richer and much whiter counties, like those outside of Pittsburgh, actually voted more for Trump than the county Johnstown is in.

It all strikes me as so voyeuristic, like rich white liberals are looking into a zoo to observe the poor sad redneck TrumpVoter™, when Trump voters live within their own communities and are probably part of their own families. But becaue these Trump voters are rich white people who don’t live in trailer parks, they’re somehow not as “interesting” to write about. Just like how journalism will look down on the KKK, but will describe Richard Spencer as “dapper”. Same deal, different package.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with these shitty Nazis. I just thought I’d say my two cents about how insular liberal cities are and how we can fool ourselves into thinking conservative white Christian rural people “aren’t that bad”. Oh, they’re bad. Trust me. They’re bad. And once we start recognizing that, we can settle in for a long and prolonged fight without expecting instant change.

“I really felt like things were moving forward, and we were making progress. I went to Stuyvesant high school in Tribeca, and it was common to see same sex couples holding hands, or kissing in the halls. LGBTQ students were treated like everybody else. Same for race.”

I went to a dinky little high school way out in the back of the woods, and though we had early marriage and gun racks and pickups there, we also had what you had: gay kids whom everyone knew to be gay but who were not hounded on that account; open displays of affection between those same gay kids; and interracial couples who weren’t persecuted (what shows up in retrospect as even more remarkable about this was that we had relatively few black kids, though we had plenty of Hispanics and some Asians) but almost kind of looked-up-to in a way. Things may have changed since then, but I can’t see that they’ve changed for the better.

“How did we get here from there in such a short time?”

Drat me if I know. (I’m writing this principally to let you know that the same change in atmosphere you’ve noticed in NYC is also to be found almost 3000 miles away on the opposite coast. IOW, You Are Not Alone.)

“Things couldn’t have been this bad underneath all along, could they?”

The potential must always have been there, otherwise the potential couldn’t have manifested itself — but aside from that, this is a question to which I have no answer. Happy dreams.

@dust bunny

What you said. So. fucking. much.

I’m an engineer working in oil and gas. I was more than aggressively told to f off during my MEng. The men I was told to manage sexually harassed me relentlessly, spoke incredibly degradingly about women and were just overall arrogant jackasses.

I’ve spoken with female petroleum engineers from Muslim majority countries. Despite being in many ways repressed, they didn’t feel their male colleagues were treating them as outsiders. Sure they had extremely old-fashioned views as to how they should behave and discriminated against them based on these beliefs, they never told them to get out. They also had a tendency of ”lowering their gaze” (i.e showing deference) when they passed by and did not sexually harass as much.

Many women from Saudi Arabia also told me that engineering is considered a clerical job ideal for women. Manufacturing trades in factories are considered a man’s job, as they are hot and women’s veils make it uncomfortable.

This is what I mean by hating women and treating them paternalistically being different. These Muslim men certainly view these women as being forced into a certain role, but didn’t disrespect them, at least not nearly as much

Also the Norwegian Gender Paradox is right-wing horseshit invented by men who’ve absolutely no idea what women go through and the cultural differences in gendered labor division.. It is implicit islamophobia, as it assumes Muslim countries are all sexist shitholes. They’ve done absolutely no analysis of women’s experiences and how equality in public is not equality in private.. More often than not, men who promote this garbage are the ones who most make STEM women’s lives miserable and believe orientalist stereotypes about Middle-Easterners, my Mizrahi Jewish self included.

@Scildfreja

I’m a bitch. Get used to it.

I’m a bitch. Get used to it.

I’m not going to tell women that they shouldn’t be as aggressive and forthright as men, but… have you considered not being an asshole?

Okay, let me rephrase:

Have you considered not being an asshole all the time, even to nice people in kind social spaces rather than in a professional environment?