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advocacy of violence alt-right anti-Semitism AntiFa antifeminism empathy deficit entitled babies evil human females evil sexy ladies grandiosity has possibly never spoken to a woman hate literal nazis men who should not ever be with women ever miscegenation misogyny pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles racism rape rape is good actually stacies

“Ethnostate rape gangs” and other treats the “American fascists” in Patriot Front want to bring to women

To be fair, Nazis don’t really understand women either

By David Futrelle

Lefty media site Unicorn Riot, which is doing a bang-up job exposing the so-called alt-right — recently obtained a virtual treasure trove of chat logs and audio files in which members of Patriot Front, a self-described “American fascist” group that split off from Vanguard America last year, talk about how much they hate Jews and love guns and all the assorted other things that the shithead Nazis of today like to talk about.

Some of the most hair-raising discussions in this vast pile of terrible concern one group of human beings that the current generation of Nazis especially hate: women. Nazis and white supremacists have always been sexist, but in the past their sexism always had a paternalistic side to it. Nazis and Klansmen claimed to want to protect and even celebrate white women, and many women found this appealing. In the 1920s, the women’s auxilliary of the KKK had a half million members.

The alt-right of today, by contrast, is overwhelmingly male — and overwhelmingly misogynistic, with an anti-woman ideology not that far removed from your average incel.

Take a listen to how these guys talk about women when they think no one is paying attention. If anything, their comments are even worse than the descriptions below suggest.

It’s probably not much of a surprise that these guys are also violently homophobic.

Check out the rest of this twitter thread to hear the Patriot Front boys’ thoughts on the relative merits of different guns, the alleged racist evil of Black Lives Matter, and their alt-right rivals The Traditionalist Workers Party.

For more on the brief but still pretty awful history of Patriot Front, check out Unicorn Riot’s feature on the group, which also contains links to UR’s archives of the 26,0000 Discord messages they, er, obtained from these lovely lady hating fascists.

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Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@EJ

I have a difficulty switching gears to be honest.

Starfury
Starfury
2 years ago

@everyone who replied to my query

Thank you for the insights. I’ll read those articles now, so thank you for those. I will try to find the specific source of the information, as I recall it was a documentary they were citing.

@dust bunny @female yid

I’m really sorry for the shit you’ve had to put up with pursuing your careers. Sadly, it does not surprise me. I don’t know what I can say except thank you for putting up with horrendous stuff no-one should not have to and telling your stories, giving your evidence, paving the way for future generations to put up with a little less and less injustice over time.

That goes for everyone here fighting the good fight and supporting each other. I don’t post often but the comments here always mean a lot to me and make me feel less isolated in my beliefs

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Is Female Yid Janet Bloomfield’s slightly more progressive cousin or something?

This shit’s getting old.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@Female Yid,

Allow me to rephrase as well, please.

Consider being less aggressive to my friends and my community, or I’ll be requesting the banhammer from David. We don’t need that here.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Most white trash that voted for Trump are economic illiterates.

You’ve been asked not to use this phrase before. And seriously reconsider acting like that to Scildy, she’s very highly regarded here with good reason. No one wants that kind of toxicity here.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@Starfury

That’s just the tip of the sword. Homphobia and racism are rampant, and gay men and men of color have it just as bad as I if not worse.

I run a diversity in oil and gas organization that fights sexism, homophobia and racism in the industry. I’m the bane of bigoted jackasses.

@Scildfreja

Alright then. Sorry. The material discussed here raises my blood pressure significantly. I have to deal with this on a constant basis. Many of the manospherians discussed here are my co workers.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Unlike Andrea Hardie, I’m a productive human being that has a productive job that doesn’t rely on bullying rape victims and acting like a colossal Aunt Tammy.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Maybe you might want to not act like Hardie if you think you’re so superior to her? Because the proud assholery along with the apologia for traditionalist misogyny makes you seem like twins.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Nothing wrong with proud assholery so long as its against the right people. Treating manospherians with respect is utterly futile.

I’m not apologizing for traditionalist misogyny. I’m differentiating it. See my comment about Muslim petroleum engineers.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

What the fuck? No one is saying you can’t be an asshole to manospherians. That’s not what anyone was talking about.

And saying benevolent sexists aren’t misogynists is a form of apologia.

Just knock this crap off.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Blunter wwth

I have a difficulty switching gears to be honest.

Learn. Fast.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@Female Yid,

I understand. Working with MRA’s and manospherians is utterly infuriating! If anything is worthy of raising blood pressure and generating anger, it’s their smug, aggressive posturing.

We all work alongside them. We all live alongside them. I’ve worked oil and gas, and now I work with the techbros that claim to have rational-science-reasons for their disgusting misogyny. Others here work in every field that the assholes claim as theirs. They’re our brothers and fathers and uncles.

You work beside them, great. Doesn’t give you special entitlement to offload your frustration on people here. Want to rant? Great, rant about them. Don’t turn your teeth on us.

Point your spear outwards, for fuck’s sakes, or you’re just as bad as they are.

dawnpurityseeker
dawnpurityseeker
2 years ago

Speaking of benevolent sexism, I was trying to find the study where researchers compared how men are viewed when receiving/refusing help in the workplace with how women are viewed when receiving/refusing help in the workplace, and I stumbled across wikipedia’s page on Ambivalent Sexism. I was wondering what you guys thought about it, in particular this part;

“Social psychologists have suggested that sexism may be inherently different from other forms of ambivalent prejudice, in that there is interdependency between women and men in social structures.[11] A central argument to the theory of ambivalent sexism is the idea that there is a complicated balance of power between men and women, such that men have structural power and women have dyadic power (stemming from dependence between two people). Dyadic power reflects the notion that men depend on women to fulfill certain goals, such as heterosexual intimacy and childbearing. Glick and Fiske assert that men’s dependence on women is what fuels benevolently sexist attitudes, leading to idolization and the placing of women on a pedestal.[3] In other words, power relationships between men and women foster an ambivalent form of bias towards women.

Theoretically, each form of sexism is composed of three subcomponents: paternalism, gender differentiation, and heterosexuality.[1] Paternalism reflects views of women as underdeveloped adults, providing justification for men to be authoritative and monitor, protect, and make decisions on women’s behalf. Gender differentiation promotes the assumption that biological differences between males and females justify the strict adherence to socially prescribed gender roles. Heterosexuality—described as the most prominent cause of men’s ambivalence toward women—reflects a tension between genuine desires for closeness and intimacy and a fear of women attaining power over men through sexual attraction.

Within hostile sexism (HS) and benevolent sexism (BS), the three subcomponents serve distinct functions. Dominative paternalism (HS) suggests that men should control women, while protective paternalism (BS) implies that men should protect and care for women. Competitive gender differentiation (HS) bolsters men’s self-confidence (e.g., men are superior to women). Complementary gender differentiation (BS) places importance on traditional gender roles for women (e.g., mother & wife) and assumes that men depend on women to fulfill these roles. Lastly, heterosexual hostility (HS) views women as sexual objects for men’s pleasure and promotes the fear of women’s capacity to manipulate men by engaging in or withholding sexual activity. Intimate heterosexuality (BS) romanticizes women as having sexual purity and views romantic intimacy as necessary to complete a man.”

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
2 years ago

@Yid

Unlike Andrea Hardie, I’m a productive human being that has a productive job…

Let’s not. That way lies bullshit…

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@Scildfreja

What’s your line of work?

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
2 years ago

Female Y*d,

she just told you. oil and gas. it is no need to be specific. what she said is true. her experienced are true.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
2 years ago

Female yid: I can be tactless, so to be clear this is friendly advice, not an attack. Your attitude/demenour are so harsh and forceful, they make me feel uncomfortable. I’m not even sure exactly why. And it seems to be unpleasant to other people too.

I think you’ve made more than 1 interesting and/or valid point, but the way you make them seems to be making a bunch of people feel uncomfortable, offended or disrespected. If that’s not your intent, then please take the advice people gave and think about it. If it is your intent, I think you should take a step back and figure out why before you post here again.

Also, Scild, if you have time and don’t mind, could you please give me your opinion on the query I posted last night? I really enjoy your takes on things because they are always comprehensive, detailed, and well thought out. Plus, you always bring up at least 1(sometimes a bunch)aspect of the subject that never even occurred to me. Ive always been impressed with the breadth of your intelligence. You seem to know something about everything😊

Lastly, Mish I mentioned you not for education, you fall into the”was always really kind and supportive of me from jump, even though some of my early posts could be kinda problematic, and/or tactless. So thanks for that. You’re awesome. I’m gonna check out some of the other articles I’ve missed, and the new ones now. Goodnight and have a lovely Friday everyone! Xoxo😘

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Fluffy Spider,

*catlady fist-bump*
Tom-Tom sounds adorable. My three are like kids, too (maybe more so than my actual kid, who is not really a kid anymore)
Sorry to hear about the other kitties 🙁

Here’s my baby girl, Mei-Mei – although if you’ve been reading here for a while, you’ll have already seen her, as I tend to over-share!

http://i64.tinypic.com/331n2c9_th.jpg

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@WWTH

WaPo today noted the dogwhistling re “globalist” – so, good call on your part, as usual.

@Female Yid

I’m a bitch. Get used to it.

We don’t actually have to get used to it. This is a community, not a free for all. Also, your constant elitism (& condescension) is really getting on my nerves.

dawnpurityseeker
dawnpurityseeker
2 years ago

@Female Yid

There kinda is a feminist discussion/paradox around “being a bitch”, isn’t there? On one hand, women are shoved too tightly into the “be polite” box, on the other, too much aggressiveness tears apart communities, and makes people afraid to communicate, as Scild mentioned a few weeks ago. :/

I was baptized into a brand of feminism in which “bitch” is a complement, so I know where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, I eventually realized that my pride in my bitchiness, and lack of flexibility with it, didn’t make me the “good, strong, outspoken” kind of bitch, but the “hammer that only sees nails, abusive” kind of bitch. Which was NOT what I wanted, or what feminism is all about.

So where is the boundary between “good” bitchiness and “bad” bitchiness? Hell if I know, but I will say this.

In my case it was hard to switch gears because there was nothing to switch gears to. I was raised by angry, aggressive people, and when I grew up I hung out with angry, aggressive people. I live in an area known for it’s aggressiveness. But honestly, the more I develop a softer side to me, the happier I become, feminist or not.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

@Female Yid

You can’t simultaneously defend your aggressive behavior with “hey, I’m just an asshole to everyone, get used to it” and “there’s nothing wrong with being an asshole to those who deserve it!”

Unless you are implying that either the commentariat here or people in general are ALL deserving of having others be assholes to them. Do you think that we deserve to be subjected to assholery? If you do not, please attempt to cut it out.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Going to stick my neck out and say maybe the point has been made by now? No need to keep hammering it, bar further input by Female Yid, eh?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@Female Yid, I work for a university artificial intelligence research lab right now! Used to do some really interesting work, but times are tough so now I’m doing boring corporate contracts to help the lab pay the bills (while other people do the interesting stuff, of course). Before this I worked in the Canadian tar sands. Miserable work, that, but it certainly paid better. I was working for a wholesaler, providing parts and materials for the constant construction and maintenance that went on up there, plus occasional design work for them. The work itself was fine, but the environment was, uh, not my slice of cake.

@KatieKitten, “how did we get here” is a really interesting question. I don’t have a whole lot of actual evidence for my opinions either, so they aren’t worth a whole lot! But I’m happy to talk about it. You’re very flattering, you :3 Thank you.

I think there’s a bit of a perfect-storm of factors going on here. Others (Shadow I think?) have suggested this is an extinction event. The fascists know they’re in the minority and they’re getting fewer in number, and they’re angry about it. I think that’s probably true, but I think it’s both incomplete and insufficient. That’s sort of the starting point, ’cause they’ve been in that situation for awhile now.

Two other things are factoring in to “activate” that latent anger, in my opinion. First is ubiquitous internet. Back in the early 2000’s, the major newspapers and news outlets saw a huge decline in their profits. People were getting their news, for free, on the interwebs; their efforts to launch online subscription services as promised by the dotcom bubble failed to bring them the revenue they needed. So they broke their central rule, and tore down the wall between marketing and journalism. It started innocently enough – newspapers offering businesses to write articles about them in positive terms for money. It was fairly obvious it was a paid article, so it seemed reasonable enough. But it’s a slippery slope between restaurant reviews being paid-for by restaurants and gas companies paying for climate-denial editorials. In my opinion, this is why the news is so “both-sides’ey” these days. One side’s right, and the other side is paying a pile of money to get equal footing.

The end result of all that? News isn’t as trustworthy anymore. They do still report honestly, but just as often something untrustworthy is given the same platform and priority as something that is. People can sniff that sort of deception out. The attitude I hear from those around me now is “Yeah, my news sources are biased, but at least they’re honest about it.” (I’ve heard this as a defense of Breitbart, Rebel Media, etc.) As if choosing your news was literally about finding a news source with a bias you agree with. And they don’t see how this might be a problem to finding the truth! Boggles the mind, but there you go.

Second contributing factor relates to this. Right wing groups are actively recruiting right now. Stormfront has openly admitted to using Reddit, the Chans, MRA spaces and others as recruiting grounds. Russian government forces (i.e. the oligarchs) have been doing similar in recent years. Right wing authoritarians have seen the destruction of truth in the media and have pounced on it to gain a voice. Their ideas have seeped into discourse, at first in those spaces, then others. GamerGate has been documented as an attempt by Steve Bannon to weaponize misogynistic gamers; he used Breitbart to signal amplify a small, sexist dispute. And it worked. The same techniques worked during the 2016 presidential campaign. And right now Mueller’s investigating Russian links to both Breitbart and the NRA, and no doubt many other organizations.

I won’t call this an extension of the Cold War, because it’s not. It’s about rich assholes of many nationalities, spending money and influence to get more and more power. A lot of it seems like it’s coming from Russia, but it’d be wrong to say it’s the Russians. There are americans, turks, germans, etc – rich assholes all over the world that are helping this horrible thing roll along, because they are all profiting from it.

I realize that description has gotten really messy at the end there, and sounds sort of conspiratorial. It’s really hard to talk about global forces without sounding conspiratorial, though! I think “rich assholes using social media dishonestly to try to gain more power” is pretty straightforward, though. They’re now at the stage where “more power” means more than just getting money, though. They want the power to do whatever they want. That’s autocracy.

Sorry for the ramble! Hopefully there’s at least one or two good ideas in that mess.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@Scildfreja

*Sigh*

I can understand why there would be so much misogyny.

Privileged white male rationals with a storied history of sexual frustration and the woman-hate that usually acompanies it discussing human intelligence and how they believe women have less of it.

It’s like what neuroscience used to be before the sixties.

It sounds like a more intellectualized version of the pipefitters who used to catcall me.

—-

It’s worth noting that more and more of these rich assholes are women and minorities. They don’t seem to be taking this racism/sexism lying down.

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

@Mish
She’s so beautiful! I don’t mind cat oversharing since they are my favorite animal. They’re wonderful in every way (including as repellent for mra guys which are common where I live)

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

I accidentally screwed up putting my email moderators on my last comment may I restate it?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

My particular slice of the techbro world isn’t too bad at the moment! I work from home, so I only have to deal with occasional face to face and skype. There are other issues, but it’s nowhere near the hell of working oil and gas. Pipefitters can be awful. I started my schooling while I was up there as a way to escape that hellhole, and I’m very glad I did.

Techbro sexism is less blatant, but more patronizing, I find. Aggression gets a lot more respect up there; in the tech world being aggressive just gets you a reputation of being irrational. Same nonsense, different expressions. That’s probably why they think they aren’t sexist – their expressions are more patronizing. More pedestal sexism and less catcalling sexism. I dunno.

Neuroscience is still pretty ridiculous as soon as it leaves the academic sphere! Phrenology is alive and well, it’s just called “fMRI studies” now. Racists and douchebags use the size of brain regions to support their shitty ideologies, just like the Nazis did with skull shapes. In the literature itself there’s generally a lot of statements about not having evidence to link brain region differences with behaviour (because you can’t do that) but the moment it leaves the white papers? Neuroscience becomes basically everything the GamerGaters, MRAs, Fascists, and other assorted assholes believe. It’s utter garbage.

I’m looking at you, Sam Fucking Harris.

And yeah, the rich assholes include women and minorities. I’d probably point out that it’s mostly men, though, and I’d be interested in seeing how many rich women are participating in this alt-right project. Minorities can certainly join the other team, though, if they have the money for it.

@Edit: Fluffy Spider! You can absolutely change your email address, but it’ll have to go through moderation again, and you’ll need to go to Gravatar to reset there, too. Otherwise, yes, you can change that!

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

I saw why it didnt post correctly before finally I typed N instead M at the end of Com
Anyhoo here’s my original comment
@Mish
Your kitteh is beautiful :D. No one could overshare cat pictures in mind they’re majestic purring creatures. She looks sweet too.

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

I’m looking at you, Sam Fucking Harris.

So true. So true.

Sam Fucking Harris is one of the two people whom I am ashamed to say I’ve bought books by (the other being Michael Shermer.) He’s always been awful, but as movement-atheism has become less of a coherent thing, he’s shifted even more towards the awful-people faction.

I think a lot of impressionable, lonely, malsocialised, intelligent young men in our system come into adulthood looking for an older mentor figure who combines a rebellious swagger with an authoritative manner and a set of easy answers. It’s why Harris and his ilk (looking at you, Jordan Peterson) are such magnets for the lost boys of our generation. They suck them in and teach them to be assholes.

A decade ago, someone said that we have a god-shaped hole in our minds. I’m starting to think that we have a priest-shaped hole instead.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It’s kind of funny how misogynists accuse women of being herd animals, followers, slaves to fashion. Not like alpha males who are so rational and independent minded. Yet these so called independent and ultra rational men are the ones who are most likely to get sucked into a cult of personality. They are so much more devoted to Donald Trump, Richard Dawkins, Paul Elam or whoever than any woman I’ve ever met has ever been devoted to anyone.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

@Scild

Interesting input. I hadn’t really thought at all about the impact marketing had regarding the shift on journalism, but it does make sense now that you state it. And as other professionals have put it before, marketing is a more conservative dominated field, so it just goes to show they had an advantage there to begin with.

@KatieKitten420

I’d also like to pitch in some with some thoughts, regarding this brand of misogyny and sexism.

As a person who lived his childhood during the 90s, an era which was essentially a boom for entertainment and in which TVs were nearly ubiquitous, video games were the new rave and anime was starting to make it’s first impression on the West; I can attest that most forms of entertainment, geared towards boys my age, completely reinforced conservative ideas and expectations for boys and girls.

It was always about playing the hero, rescuing some princess, and living happily ever after. In the video game industry, the fact that you often got to play the hero, the “chosen one” offered a specially tempting level of abstraction that wasn’t available previously with books.

My take on this is that this industry boom fostered all these expectations for all these kids that grew up during this era. It also didn’t help that gaming was considered a male activity too. You essentially had a bunch of kids, feeding off of sexist stereotypes, and feeding off of each other’s thoughts on the subject.

Anime didn’t help much, given that it had a visual appeal western cartoons didn’t have, and also because female characters always played some sort of submissive or supportive role. They were also highly sexualized, in ways that weren’t even on par with western animation. There were notable exceptions, but it wasn’t the general rule.

Then these men took these expectations out to the real world, and found out firsthand that they were NOT the hero, they thought themselves to be, they were NOT the nice guys, and they were NOT entitled to women. They grew frustrated.

Then the 2008 crisis happened and, for many, this blew away any chance at affordable housing or even starting a nuclear family (not that anyone in their right minds would go for someone who would, at best, act in the most patronizing way towards women).

These people looked for the first culprit they could find as to why they weren’t finding the sweet, demure, pretty girls they had been promised since childhood, and they found a common enemy in feminism. A movement that, at least in their view, ridiculed their efforts and turned women into assertive and hostile people. A movement dedicated to tearing down the gender roles they had been taught they had been entitled to their whole lives.

If you look at it through the lens, were these people consider themselves the protagonist of their own tragic tale, then the MRA movement starts to make “sense“. It’s always about victimizing themselves and whining how hard men have it, as opposed to women, who only have to play the part of the damsel in distress.

I could be entirely in the wrong here, but I think that there is something that can be explored in that angle.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Diego Duarte
re;anime
I feel like the import filter was a major contributing factor to that problem,
the networks wanted to market to young boys almost exclusively so with only a hand full of exceptions everything that got imported to US television had a male lead Cardcaptor Sakura even got butchered into Cardcaptors and tried to make Sakura a supporting character in her own show.

I mean it feels like overall I have seen more female main characters in anime then in western animation but back in the late 90’s early 2000’s? Well the people sourcing shows for toonami decided a harem comedy (tenchi muyo) was a good after school cartoon.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

@TreePerson

Huh, didn’t know they played it that way in the US. Tbh I did notice a lot of censorship when I moved there, but as far as Tenchi Muyo goes, Latin American countries actually got Ranma 1/2 entirely uncensored on regular broadcasting channels, after school hours. But I would say that the source material itself degenerated overtime.

There is a common saying that goes “Anime isn’t as good as it used to be”. This is because the market got flooded with harem anime and similar. It got especially bad in the later half of the 2000s and nowadays it’s not like they’re even trying: overly sexualized girls and harem anime are entirely cliché now.

We might be starting to see a pull away from these clichés, but even so, they still dominate the market. It’s like the Uroboros serpent, the trend feeds upon itself. The more sexual expectations these shows foster upon the young male demographic, there more demand there is.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Diego Duarte
It was bizarre they aired tenchi muyo as after school cartoon but only after heavy editing to make it more kid friendly,
at that point why even bother?

Most anime is generic, back in the 90’s/00’s it was all completely new compared to the hanna barbera/warner bros cartoons that dominated the western market so there is something of a nostalgia filter that says the billion episodes of meandering filler that was dragonball z was amazing ground braking work (I liked Gundam Wing better myself).

Its not that there is less good anime these days its that we add up all of the good anime and anime we remember fondly and compare it to the current season which has a few good shows and a bunch of generic fodder,
but yeah the otaku bait fanservice harems are an eye sore.

So far I’ve been watching darker magical girl anime and Gundam shows and stuff by a few creatives I bother to follow.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Shadowplay,

Going to stick my neck out and say maybe the point has been made by now? No need to keep hammering it, bar further input by Female Yid, eh?

Evidently quite a few people (myself included) have found some of Female Yid’s comments to be extremely problematic. I think it’s ok that we express that, and I don’t think we’re dog-piling. Having said that, sure, I’ll move on *shrugs*

Diversion time! Re Sam Harris, Peterson, et al.:
I loved some of Dawkins’ writing; same with Hitchens’ work (I re-read Mortality a lot). So it’s been kind of painful, the last few years. Their rational skepticism never seems to be applied to their own thinking, somehow.
And yeah, as WWTH said, their fans are something else. True paragons of rational, individual, critical thinking 🙄

Stephanie Tohill
Stephanie Tohill
2 years ago

@Female Yid – I absolutely agree with that I don’t view treating women in a paternalistic manner as being akin to the violent misogyny you view of the Alt-Right.

The Alt-Rightists hate women for being women. The traditionalists seem to view it as their duty to “protect” women. I used to travel a lot to some of the more traditional Middle Eastern countries for work and I always saw it as men believing that it was cruel to not take proper care of women. It annoyed me and I don’t appreciate a man seeing me as a child – but I don’t think that is born of hate.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ahem. *taps mic* Anyone listening?
comment image

I am incredibly disturbed that it’s apparently now a controversial statement in a feminist space to label religious fundamentalist sexism as misogyny.

What the actual fucking fuck!?

Seriously.

10-20 years ago it would not have been a controversial statement to label this kind of paternalistic sexism as misogyny in a progressive and/or feminist space.

When you say those people are merely annoying, condescending, or simply trying to uphold tradition, you are letting the alt-right control the discourse around gender issues. It’s ceding ground to them. You are moving the amount of bias against women that is viewed as acceptable further to the right.

That. Is. Not. Okay.

Not with me anyway. And I will continue to push against it. I’m not going to let these fuckers manipulate me into thinking that merely trying to legalize marital rape and outlaw reproductive health care is not really so bad. And I’m not going to let those ideas take hold here.

Traditional sexists who claim they just want to protect women beat women. They rape women. They deny their daughters proper education. They work to keep us second class citizens.

That is misogyny. Full fucking stop.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Radical fringe effect:
the “legalize the rape of unmarried women over 16 by organized gangs of men.” crowed make the run of the mill “women are less then men and ban abortion.” crowed look almost reasonable.

Both are despicable and should be fought with no quarter given,
never cede ground to them and grind them under foot until there is nothing left of misogyny, sexism and bigotry in general.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

The wall goes at the border, and the border is “equal.”

Not “paternalistic compassion”, not “traditional but gentle,” not “understandable bias”.

Wall’s at “equal”. If you’re defending further back, you’re ceding them the bulwark.

No compromises. Whether their belief is born of hate, born of compassion, born of whatever. Doesn’t matter. No compromises.

Your mileage may vary.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
I’m listening loud and clear. And damn we need this more than ever.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@wwth

Five by. Well said. To my mind the paternalistic stuff is worse, because it’s so prevalent (and so insidious – going to make a small bet that any man who comments here with any regularity has to constantly fight the over protective crap within themselves).

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@wwth,

Been hearing you crystal clear the whole time, and you’re damn right.
I also get that feeling of “hello? can anyone hear me?” 😒

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Hear, hear. Traditional paternalism is just as toxic and hateful as the blatant bullshit that the alt-righters spew. I’d say it’s more insidious, even if it’s less immediately violent, because it can be couched in “caring” language. It comes in the form of gaslighting and emotional abuse and all manner of things that aren’t quite so easy for society to identify as “holy shit that’s appalling” as the blatant violence of “real” misogyny. It’s something that can be have excuses made for it, as this thread as clearly shown.

On top of that, the paternalistic crap is only ‘protective’ so long as you toe the line they set out (and are the right race to be cared about to begin with). The second you fall into the ‘whore’ side of the whore/madonna dichotomy, you’re a feral animal, instead of a pretty little ornament to keep and “cherish”. At best, there will be ostracism and discrimination, but more often this will result in more direct punishments to “show the women her place”, you know, just like what the alt-right spouts.

I suppose paternalism assumes that the (correct) women are ‘madonnas’ and to be treated like cherished objects unless proven otherwise, while the alt-righties assume that all women fall into the ‘whore’ side of the dichotomy unless proven otherwise.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
2 years ago

In addition to everything else…

It annoyed me and I don’t appreciate a man seeing me as a child – but I don’t think that is born of hate.

Even if it’s not (which I disagree with, because subconscious hate is still hate, but let’s go with it for the sake of argument), ever heard the saying “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions”? It literally does not matter if the intention is “Protection” when the result is oppression, abuse, rape and murder on a global scale.

(… Also, why are we all pretending that Y*d is here in good faith when their username is an anti-Semitic slur? If they’re not yet another Nazi pretending to be a feminist, I’ll eat my favourite hat.)

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

@WWTH:
@Catalpa:

http://media.giphy.com/media/p1chWWGExnuYE/giphy.gif

Just… the whole of both of those rants. That has made my morning.

@Shadowplay:

going to make a small bet that any man who comments here with any regularity has to constantly fight the over protective crap within themselves

Isn’t that the truth?

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

(Apologies for the double post, but M ninja’d me.)

… Also, why are we all pretending that Y*d is here in good faith when their username is an anti-Semitic slur? If they’re not yet another Nazi pretending to be a feminist, I’ll eat my favourite hat.

M, you have better trolldar than I do, but I got the sense that she’s genuine, albeit something of an asshole. I’ve heard a number of religious people say similar things before, torn between being pissed off at patriarchy and being hesitant to fully reject the traditions they were brought up in.

As such, I can see her name as being an attempt to reclaim the slur; it strikes me as the sort of thing that is coherent with the behaviour we’ve seen from her.

Also… could you not refer to Jewish people as Nazis? I’m normally there with you about using that phrase, but in this case I think it might be a little insensitive.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
2 years ago

@wwth et al – YES and thank you!!!!!!!

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

I got the same impression as EJ the other one FWIW.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

I did not catch that but she has been getting the side eye from me,
especially after calling our discussion of the failures of communism to live up to its own ideals defending it.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
2 years ago

WWTH, you said exactly what I was thinking, but much more eloquently😜
Im a lapsed Catholic(but I was raised as a very devout Catholic)My mom was a nun when she met my social worker father at a grouphome. I went to church 3 times a week+sunday school till I was 12.(I got asked to leave Sunday school when I was 10. They said I was disruptive because I asked too many questions🤔😒🙄😡)

Because of the Sunday school debacle, and a few smaller similar experiences+ the fact that I couldn’t get anyone to give me satisfying answers to my questions, I went from devout to disillusioned. Now I’ve come to a happy medium but being constantly at church I knew almost the whole regular congregation(200-250 people)at least to chat with.

My point is(aside from the fact that I need to learn to be concise😝)even as a child and a young teen, the way a plurality, if not a majority of the men(and often, but not always, the more “devout” they were, the worse they were)treated their wives and female family members like they were just less than, in many different ways. Yes most of them weren’t straight up assholes(at least in public)but even things like women disagreeing with them was unacceptable or silly(some would be like essentially ” oh how cute she thinks her opinions are worthwhile.

TL, DR: it’s straight misogyny. I don’t care if they mean well, I don’t care if they’re kind to women in a lot of ways. They do not consider women to be equal to them. Period