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advocacy of violence alt-right anti-Semitism AntiFa antifeminism empathy deficit entitled babies evil human females evil sexy ladies grandiosity has possibly never spoken to a woman hate literal nazis men who should not ever be with women ever miscegenation misogyny pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles racism rape rape is good actually stacies

“Ethnostate rape gangs” and other treats the “American fascists” in Patriot Front want to bring to women

To be fair, Nazis don’t really understand women either

By David Futrelle

Lefty media site Unicorn Riot, which is doing a bang-up job exposing the so-called alt-right — recently obtained a virtual treasure trove of chat logs and audio files in which members of Patriot Front, a self-described “American fascist” group that split off from Vanguard America last year, talk about how much they hate Jews and love guns and all the assorted other things that the shithead Nazis of today like to talk about.

Some of the most hair-raising discussions in this vast pile of terrible concern one group of human beings that the current generation of Nazis especially hate: women. Nazis and white supremacists have always been sexist, but in the past their sexism always had a paternalistic side to it. Nazis and Klansmen claimed to want to protect and even celebrate white women, and many women found this appealing. In the 1920s, the women’s auxilliary of the KKK had a half million members.

The alt-right of today, by contrast, is overwhelmingly male — and overwhelmingly misogynistic, with an anti-woman ideology not that far removed from your average incel.

Take a listen to how these guys talk about women when they think no one is paying attention. If anything, their comments are even worse than the descriptions below suggest.

It’s probably not much of a surprise that these guys are also violently homophobic.

Check out the rest of this twitter thread to hear the Patriot Front boys’ thoughts on the relative merits of different guns, the alleged racist evil of Black Lives Matter, and their alt-right rivals The Traditionalist Workers Party.

For more on the brief but still pretty awful history of Patriot Front, check out Unicorn Riot’s feature on the group, which also contains links to UR’s archives of the 26,0000 Discord messages they, er, obtained from these lovely lady hating fascists.

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Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

As a Swede, I always point out that the Nordic countries have drifted pretty far to the right if you compare the situation now with the situation in, say, the 1980:s. Way more stuff is private owned nowadays, taxes are lower, welfare less extensive and so on. Unfortunately, I think extensive welfare states and high taxes are unstable as well. Not because they inhibit growth, because we’ve seen that economic growth do just fine under these circumstances. But since the capitalists get a smaller share of the cake than under more rightwing rule, and since the capitalist class is still really powerful under these conditions, they’re gonna keep pushing for lower taxes, less welfare and for more private ownership. And still, I don’t think there’s any better system that has actually been tried and shown to work.
You can imagine a system in which there are no capitalists because all businesses are owned by the workers, but there’s still a lot of areas in which the free market rules and in which the state doesn’t own businesses, and you still vote for a representative government. IDK if that might be pretty stable IF you could implement it? The tricky part would be how to get there I guess. AFAIK it’s never really been tried.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
2 years ago

So, on topic. Anyone who saw my previous posts knows I’m naive in a lot of ways. I was raised upper middle class in The Village in NYC by my white mother and black father so until I got out of college I was sheltered in a lot of ways. The only thing I want to ask no one else has touched on is, is this surreal to anyone else?

In my teens in the late 90s and very early 00s, I really felt like things were moving forward, and we were making progress. I went to Stuyvesant high school in Tribeca, and it was common to see same sex couples holding hands, or kissing in the halls. LGBTQ students were treated like everybody else. Same for race. To be honest, I didn’t notice it at the time, but the most pervasive thing in that that way at Stuy was definitely toxic masculinity(the nerdy version)and male chauvinism.

How did we get here from there in such a short time? I’ve never spent over a month anywhere but NYC so it’s the only place I can speak on, but was I just blind? Things couldn’t have been this bad underneath all along, could they?

I just don’t understand what happened in a single decade to bring our society to this. This is what my breakdown was about in a way. Ok, I’m going to get some sleep. Hi again everybody, especially WWTH,(your name was too long for me to remember with my weed-addled memory, or I would have listed you)Goodnight😃

Shadowplay
2 years ago

I just don’t understand what happened in a single decade to bring our society to this.

Hi Katie – welcome back. We haven’t talked but I’ve read your posts 🙂

To be blunt, what happened was – You’re winning. Acceptance is up – to the stage now where many people are greeting the news that someone is gay, or trans, or sciencing while female with a smile and a “Good on you. Who’s round is it?” Accepting people as they are is so normal that a fuss isn’t made. It’s not needed (as much, OK, I’m generalising).

The ones David tracks though?

As anyone who’s worked in stables knows, if you corner a rat it will go for your face. They’re smart enough to know the only way to escape is attack your most sensitve organs, the ones you will protect automatically.
Nazis and assorted misogynists/ X-phobes also know this and they’d rather like to survive too. So they’re losing, they attack harder.

There’s not more of them. There’s less. They’re just louder and more dangerous precisely because there’s less of them.

I take it as a hopeful sign.

Sleep well.

(and that has burned out lightside me for several hours. 😛 )

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

Hey Katiekitten, it’s so nice to see you back. I’m so glad things seem to be picking up for you.

As to your query about what’s going on in the world, phew, wish I knew. There’s that obvious rise of populism. Many words have been written on what’s causing that. I think there’s some truth in what shadowplay says, it’s the pushback of a cornered animal. Things started to improve for formally oppressed people, and not everyone is happy with that. To use the language, they fear the loss of privilege, and they’re frightened. It’s definitely a more polarised and fractious public sphere across the west. I suppose the good thing about that is that battle lines have been drawn and people are fighting their corner. It won’t be an easy struggle. But there’s good grounds for hope. You make the very valid point that the shift to right wing populism seemed to occur quite quickly. But that could go the other way just as easily. I take heart from things like the Parkland kids. They represent a mobilisation of the people who will make a difference. They’re forcing a public discourse, and the fact they’re getting so much abuse seems to suggest they’re seen as a real threat; I hope so.

So there’s a long way to go, but it seems we’ve reached a crucial turning point in the struggle. To plagiarise Churchill: “This isn’t the end. It isn’t even the beginning of the end; but it may be the end of the beginning”

(A)utonomist Escapist
(A)utonomist Escapist
2 years ago

I’ll just have to echo my comrade from Sweden up there, the Nordic Model is currently being buried alive by the governments in power, and this has been going on for nearly two decades, with deregulation, privatization and the scourge of New Public Management seeping into every nook and cranny. Couple that with the Danish Social Democrats and Peoples’ Socialist Party joining the band-wagon of pushing racist, segregationist and impoverishing policies at every turn, and it’s looking particularly bleak here, as there seems to be no end to the scapegoating of (muslim) immigrants and refugees, in spite of all scientific evidence and human fucking decency. Sweden and Norway might be slightly less bad at the moment, though I must admit that I only really follow Swedish develpoments of the two.

On the topic, the same tendencies are becoming evident amongst nordic Nazis, the overlap with virulent misogynists is more pronounced than it used to be, and they are increasingly targeting women and LGBTQ+ people that speak up in public than they used to.

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

Some points. (I will go with the more harmless ones, because talking about monsters is not that great)

1. Christians: Here is one point were I have to point out a difference between the US and Germany. If someone says Christians I think of mainline Protestants or Catholics. (a little bit more the later, because I was raised Catholic and live in a mostly catholic area) So my opinion is not so negative than some others. They have their problems but a lot of Catholics are basicly decent people and there are only a few black sheep.

And the Protestants are more to the left normally.

We have some ultraconservative hardliners of course but christian theorists are rare.

Interesting there was one party that was anti-christian in the last election, it was the far-right AFD. So the enemy of my enemy…
(Okay the major parties, we have a lot of small parties that I don’t remember what the did, sorry in many cases I don’t remember that they exist)

2. Countrys between complete Capitalism and Communism: You can add Germany to the list. Here the ofical terme is “soziale Marktwirtschaft”. It is still mostly Capitalism. Not that like most european countrys we have a socialist partys who are pro-democracy: The SPD which is the oldest party in Germany. (Survived a certain time as forbidden underground party)
Our left party is former communist. (There is still a debate if they are completly democratic)

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Moggie,
Today’s Google has a lovely IWD home page. It was entertaining thinking of the “what about the menz?” crowd:
*need to Google something; avert eyes, don’t look at the abomination, ah god I saw a woman getting attention, it burns…*

@Katie,
I imagine you’re asleep by now (still a night owl?), but it’s great to see you, and I’m so glad you’re ok! For the record, I never tried to educate you – in fact, I agreed with you on a lot of stuff; plus, you’re far from having an “ignorant ass”. Hope to see you back soon 💖

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

(sorry for rapid double post)

@Fluffy Spider
I can’t do anything to alleviate your fear, unfortunately, except to say that you’re welcome to vent here if you need to. Also, your cat avatar is gorgeous – one of your kittehs?

Starfury
Starfury
2 years ago

Hi, slightly OT but there was something in the comments that made me want to ask you folks about this

Someone has said to me that in the ‘more equal’ countries (specifically the different Scandinavian models) women gravitate towards more traditional female roles in the workplace, as opposed to countries with greater oppression of women where they go into STEM professions more. The point being made was that where women have greater independence and freedom of choice they ‘naturally’ gravitate towards ‘lady-jobs’. I pointed out legislative equality does not result in social equality (and this point comes up a lot because it seems people think ‘well that’s illegal’ somehow means we’ve done all we can to fix the problem and should not discuss the issue further because, apparently, all the people who are socially oppressed should just ‘stand up for themselves’ – it riles me so much, sorry, didn’t mean to digress)

It seems obvious to me from the world, and what I read, that social pressure would be the cause of those statistics that they cite but does anyone have any specific explanations that would help me understand better?

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

Starfury:
Perhaps it is more easy than that.
Society gives us a picture of what is “normal” for a woman or a man for the matter, when we grow up.
When their is less oppression the rebelion against society is perhaps less also.
So perhaps it is more subtil
And their are surly some women (and probably some men, too) that like those “lady-jobs”.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

Someone has said to me that in the ‘more equal’ countries (specifically the different Scandinavian models) women gravitate towards more traditional female roles in the workplace, as opposed to countries with greater oppression of women where they go into STEM professions more. The point being made was that where women have greater independence and freedom of choice they ‘naturally’ gravitate towards ‘lady-jobs’. I pointed out legislative equality does not result in social equality (and this point comes up a lot because it seems people think ‘well that’s illegal’ somehow means we’ve done all we can to fix the problem and should not discuss the issue further because, apparently, all the people who are socially oppressed should just ‘stand up for themselves’ – it riles me so much, sorry, didn’t mean to digress)

Nice observation. It should be noted that Sweden does have one of the highest rates of sexual assault in Europe. And, despite the fact that they have a broad and comprehensive definition of what constitutes sexual assault and/or rape, it’s still proof that Sweden has a lot of toxic masculinity.

Let us also remember that in 2011, the neonazi Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people in Norway. So, it’s not just Sweden, there seems to be a surge of far right extremism in Scandinavian countries and it would be disingenuous to say it just came straight out of the blue.

So, even though they may have a lot of pro-women legislation, that does not necessarily mitigate the impact of society’s expectations towards women, nor the way men view and/or treat women on a daily basis.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

@Starfury: I’d really like to see credible statistics before I began theorizing. In Sweden, at least, women are under-represented in the STEM fields, but they’re not super rare or anything. If there are way more women in STEM in more conservative countries, bring on the numbers, THEN we can theorize.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

Somewhat related I’m a philosopher, which is also a pretty male-dominated field. 🙂 (It’s pretty unique among the humanities in being heavily male-dominated.)

Moon_custafer
Moon_custafer
2 years ago

Agreed that I’d like to see the statistics first – that said, one possible thought is that countries in which women and men are socially segregated tend to require an equal number of male and female doctors as a result, because patients can only be treated by a doctor of their own gender – so that might boost the numbers of women in STEM jobs. Similarly, separate male and female classrooms require more teachers, etc.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

@KatieKitten420

Regarding the rapid rise of regressive Rethuglican revanchism (yes, I do enjoy some good alliteration; why do you ask?), it’s actually been there all along. The Rethugs have spent literally decades undermining the concepts of expertise and truth, and many of their voters have been steeping in toxic racism, anti-intellectualism, and xenophobia their entire lives.

What’s different this time is that unlike for the last 40 years or so, they’ve completely chucked Lee Atwater’s advice about disguising their racism and hatred.

It sounds like you grew up in a wonderfully inclusive and liberal environment – I did too, being a native San Franciscan born in the 60s – but that’s an outlier on the American political spectrum. Fortunately, the deeply racist areas of the country (like the Idaho panhandle) are also outliers. Unfortunately, that means that there’s waaaaaay more stupid bullshit running through “normal” America that either one of us likes.

One final point: hatred is a great motivator, and motivated people are more likely to vote, which is one of the (many) reasons that Rethugs do better in elections than demographics indicate they should. The Boomers are dying off, though, and Millennials are the next largest cohort in American society and will soon be the largest…and Trump and the neo-Nazi crap really seems to be pissing most of them off. So there’s some hope on the horizon.

Personally, I take comfort in the knowledge that our species has been generally trending towards more inclusivity and acceptance when viewed over the course of millennia. That and the fact that only historians are likely to remember or care about any of this shit in a thousand years.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Personalpest and Scildfreja hit it on the head re: the white supremacist extremists sharing a lot of the same goals as Daesh and other Wahabists. At the same time, I think it’s also critical that the ones not this overt not use guys like this for cover.

I was on the Twitter machine yesterday and there was a thread about bearded git Carlgon of Benjamin being shoved a couple of times by some masked Antifa people where trans YouTuber Gwen_No_Fear pointed out that this is part of the alt-right victim narrative. My response was simple: Being /pol/ denizens, Carl and his ilk are the same people that celebrated violent convict Kyle “Based Stickman” Chapman bashing unarmed protesters over the head, so clearly they have no qualms about engaging in violence with their political opponents.

Now, these people are immune to hypocrisy, so I don’t bring this up to think they can be shamed, but it’s important to draw a clear line on values. Carl is very careful not to put his arm around the Richard Spencer types in public, yet one cannot escape the fact that both Spencer and Benjamin hate the same people. Feminists, Muslims, the LGBT community, BLM, Antifa, opposition to all of these groups of people underpins their actions and ideology, being the pure reactionaries they all are. But the Spencer crew and these Patriot Front people are taking that opposition to its inevitable conclusion given the “threat” they’ve perceived exists to white people: violent extermination.

There’s a reason Spencer called Carl a gateway to the alt-right. And that gateway only opens up to reveal these “Patriotic Front” jokers.

@Starfury

Came across this article from Wired that offers a good example of these cultural factors that impact women going into STEM fields: recruiting sessions. Not exactly configured for gender balance, and this is first impression stuff.

Talonknife
Talonknife
2 years ago

I’ve been on a school trip to Prague this past week and today we visited the old Jewish Quarter and saw several Holocaust memorials. I just can’t deal with the fucking Nazi shit today.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@Shadowplay

NOT. REAL. COMMUNISM.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@EJ

They’d view me as a threat, though less of a threat than a Palestinian man. I’d still be disgusting and worthy of ethnic cleansing, but they wouldn’t hate me as a woman.

Sexism is designed in such a way in which women are viewed as having less agency than men. They need to be protected and cherished because they’re weak but they’re less dangerous because they’re weak.

Most Zionist propaganda features pictures of male Palesitnians are terrorists. Never women. Why? Because they think women are weaker. Not deserving of hatred, but weaker.

(It is worth noting that due to the fact women serve with distinction in the IDF and have a strong history in the Zionist project, most far-right Zionists are significantly less sexist than most American men. They still wage a religious war on women’s reproductive rights and think we should submit to them, but they don’t think women are intellectually inferior.)

Old nationalism is racism with a side of paternalistic sexism (not misogyny; they don’t hate women per se). Alt-rightism is burning misogyny amplified by racism and vice versa.

Old nationalism is traditional conservatism amplified by national mythos. Alt-rightism is just pure, unashamed hatred of anything that isn’t white, gentile and male for its own sake.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@everyone-defending-communism

Communism is an unsustainable ideology as it replicates the structures of the capitalist system except with shareholders being replaced with state planners and all the good aspects of competition removed.

It also has a history of being colossally racist and anti-semitic. Stalin purged Jews in the 50’s

Socialist anarchism and worker’s control might be the answer, but they have a strong history of failing miserably and careening out of control pretty quickly as the stupidest prole is viewed as equal to the smartest economist.

Let’s hope automation might create a different society.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Paternalistic sexism is just misogyny with a more civil tone. Underneath the whole “women are fragile and need to be oppressed for their own good” thing is a loathing of any woman who is noncompliant. Benevolent sexists are just virulently misogynistic. That comes out whenever a woman puts a toe out of line.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@chief manatee

It isn’t as much hatred as a sense of duty to enforce whatever sexist structure is being challenged. I’ve met some of the most far-right West Bank settlers. None of them seem to hate women.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Anyone who thinks women aren’t full citizens who deserve rights hates women. Anyone who uses violence to enforce the patriarchy hates women. They may deny it to themselves and others but you can be a misogynist without saying “I hate women.”

For fuck’s sake.

And my name isn’t chief manatee. That’s my title.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@WEIRWOODTREEHUGGER (emphasized because of the last sentence)

Believing women are inferior and hating them are two different things. The latter always implies the former, but not the other way around.

Many Ultra-Orthodox Jews love their wives and daughters and treat them superbly yet view them as ideally subordinate. They in fact have a lesser rate of domestic violence than all other groups.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Just because some patriarchal men treat their property (which is how they view us) well, doesn’t mean that the system isn’t misogynistic and doesn’t mean they aren’t. Bigots are often nice to the good ones. Women all around the world are beaten, raped, enslaved, denied access to education and healthcare everyday. All in the name of tradition. The fuck if that isn’t misogyny.

I’m very much side eyeing you for not labeling it as such. This is feminism 101 here.

Between this and Hexum’s pro suicide shit in the other thread I’m getting pissy.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

I am enjoying this discussion, and will comment, but before I do I wanted to pop in with a quick little note. @Female Yid, you’re coming across as very aggressive. You might find that your comments get more traction if you were to take a less authoritative tone with your writing.

Oh yeah, and not SHOUTING SOMEONE’S NAME when they ask you to use it properly. You know, basic stuff like that.

comment image

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

@Mish
Thank you currently Tom-Tom (didn’t make him my grandmother did) is my only kitteh. I used to have a gray one named Baby who was killed by a raccoon and a black one called Midnight who vanished when my old neighbors did (I think they killed him TBH they hated cats). Tom is essentially more my kid than my cat as he follows me everywhere, uses me as furniture and will only come to me when called. I love every minute with him. I even dumped a few guys for them saying they hate cats (I’m a catlady by far)

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
2 years ago

Hey, Moderation Mammoth. New email address, long story. Anyway…

1)Whether communism ‘works’ depends on one’s definition of communism. And fuck tankies
2)Murican Xtians aren’t necessarily fascists. Nor even Murican evangelical Xtians. White Murican evangelical Xtians tho… Only a Sith deals in absolutes, but…
3)I’m black. I’ve literally 0 patience for ‘they don’t hate you, they’re just paternalistic’ 😒
4)Sup, @Katie. To answer your question, it definitely coulda been that bad. And it was. But, this is important, there’s a difference between being unable to see and not seeing. You see it now, so you have the ability, you just weren’t given the right tools/lenses. Nobody, not even black folk, is born woke. And growing up in fuckin Tribeca will keep you sleep for sure 😛

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

OT, but this is an ongoing social justice-y story here in Hogtown: that of alleged serial killer Bruce McAruthur.

PinkNews has a pretty good rundown of the case. I’d recommend checking out thestar.ca for the latest, but while this story has gripped headlines for the past month or so, it’s had me a tad unnerved for a couple of reasons:

1. This guy lived mere blocks from me. Seriously, in my morbid curiosity, I walked to the murder house with my camera to snap some photos of it. It was just behind the drug store I go to. McArthur reportedly trolled one of the local dives for victims, a place that I’ve eaten at on occasion (but not often; the food at McSorley’s is terrible). I will admit that it is somewhat amusing to see the upper-middle class denizens of Leaside up in arms about all the cop cars in their neighbourhood.

2. I remember the missing poster for one of his victims. It was last summer during one of my urban exploration walks along the Don River and I noticed the missing poster for Andrew Kinsman taped to a post near the intersection that leads to the Brickworks. I took a picture of it just for posterity and it’s still saved on my memory card. At the time I remember hoping that he’d be alright, but you can imagine how shocked I was to see that same face in the newspaper under the list of McArthur’s victims.

It’s a morbid topic, I know, and this is turning into one of my essay/rant comments, but it does raise a couple of questions about the relationship between the LGBT community and the police here in Toronto. Remember that Pride Parade that BLMTO halted and it became an online cause célèbre for edgelords and bafflingly-employed plagiarists to point to as “political correctness run amok”? One of the demands BLMTO had of Pride was better representation of South Asian communities, in addition to removal of the Toronto Police float due to at best police indifference to the LGBT community and at worst hostility to it. Well, lo and behold, McArthur’s victims were overwhelmingly gay men of South Asian descent. Chief Mark Saunders’ tone deaf statement certainly doesn’t help dispel accusations of indifference, either.

BLMTO’s actions were symbolic, but in hindsight, I think they served as an alarm bell that went unheeded and at least six people are dead that may have been saved had certain parties, namely the Toronto Police Services and those members of the LGBT community with connections to them, gotten the hell over themselves and actually worked with the vulnerable minority gay community of the city to catch this predator sooner.

I may be reading too much into it, and perhaps new evidence will change things, but that’s how I see things. And as a bi guy who lived in McArthur’s neighbourhood… kinda hoping the cops have my back going forward.

Micky Knox
Micky Knox
2 years ago

A fascinating article.

Weird (America Where Are You Now? Don't You Care About Your Sons And Daughters?) Eddie
Weird (America Where Are You Now? Don't You Care About Your Sons And Daughters?) Eddie
2 years ago

@ Female Yid:

Believing women are inferior and hating them are two different things.

They might be justifiably referred to as two different degrees of the same thing, but there is no way they’re two different things. We’re comparing human beings, here.

dust bunny
dust bunny
2 years ago

@ dvärghundspossen

This is probably what they were talking about:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180214150132.htm
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

I’m from a Nordic country, generally assumed to be a woman, and in one of the more male dominated STEM fields. I can say I’ve felt the pressure to get out very strongly at times.

I’m convinced all this has a lot to do with the gender divide in politics and values, and the corresponding political and value coding in different fields of study. There are way more conservative folks in tech and physics. The lefties are in environmental sciences, social sciences, and arts. Biology & health sciences, law, and economics & business seem to be somewhere in between.

I’m going to say people choose the groups they think they’ll be comfortable living among and identifying with and whose values they agree with. I’m also going to say that what a teenage person’s interests are has way more to do with these group associations than talent.

And they’re really, really smart to do so. They have their priorities straight and will live happier lives as a result. I envy those comrades who haven’t had to sell their souls to work in their fields (tech is basically Satan let’s face it), and I envy anyone who can say for sure they’ve ever come face to face with another feminist (lean in types do not count) within their work/academic community.

Moon_custafer
Moon_custafer
2 years ago

BLMTO’s actions were symbolic, but in hindsight, I think they served as an alarm bell that went unheeded and at least six people are dead that may have been saved had certain parties, namely the Toronto Police Services and those members of the LGBT community with connections to them, gotten the hell over themselves and actually worked with the vulnerable minority gay community of the city to catch this predator sooner.

I read today that the Pride Committee is negotiating again with the local police (who want to march in uniform again) and everyone I know is just WTF, after everything that’s happened in the last month?!

(I don’t know for sure if it’s true, but remember hearing last year that part of the reason they’re so keen to have a uniformed delegation in the parade is that marching in uniform means they’re technically on-duty, and therefore get paid to be there.)

(formerly) DepressedCNS
(formerly) DepressedCNS
2 years ago

@ Starfury

Someone has said to me that in the ‘more equal’ countries (specifically the different Scandinavian models) women gravitate towards more traditional female roles in the workplace, as opposed to countries with greater oppression of women where they go into STEM professions more. The point being made was that where women have greater independence and freedom of choice they ‘naturally’ gravitate towards ‘lady-jobs’.

I also see this argument a lot (Especially in comments on articles re: James Damore. Uhg that manifesto is infuriating to me and the perfect Rorschach test for how well someone understands privilege)

Taking the claim at face value (I haven’t delved into the data but don’t find it implausible), this probably has a lot to do with work culture and whether or not your country has adequate social welfare. The US is known for strongly associating job title with prestige, and we have a terrible social safety nets. As such women here are motivated to and at times have no choice but to fight gender stereotypes to earn a living wage, because in the traditional gender role they perform much more unpaid labor, and “lady jobs” tend to pay less (lots of studies support this)

In countries with a large social safety net, women can more easily fall into traditional gender roles because there is less financial pressure

Tl;Dr capitalism and patriarchy intersect in interesting ways

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

@Moon_custafer

I read today that the Pride Committee is negotiating again with the local police (who want to march in uniform again) and everyone I know is just WTF, after everything that’s happened in the last month?!

*sigh* You know… I feel like the Toronto Police Services have taken a step back under Saunders’ stewardship. Public relations clearly isn’t his forte, and while he strikes me as less of a blowhard than Fantino was, it felt like Blair had started the TPS on the road to reform, a road that seems to have come to a dead end under Saunders. I chalk it up to Saunders being from the urban street gang and homicide divisions of the service; he strikes me as a hard-bitten professional officer who knows his field inside and out, but didn’t quite hone the diplomacy as much, hence the gaffes and PR issues.

(A)utonomist Escapist
(A)utonomist Escapist
2 years ago

@Female Yid: Most reactionaries are quite capable of both claiming, believing and performing love when it comes to their closest female relatives and partners, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t reactionary shitheels, religious or not, just that they are even more cognitively dissonant than those whose actions mirror their ideologies more clearly.

And concerning Communism, a-hierarchical Communists (AKA Socialist Anarchists of all stripes, colours and names), have always denounced the wrongdoings of the Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge and assorted other authoritarians who’ve dressed up their barbarity in Red. Don’t expect those of us who advocate full dismantling of patriarchal, imperialist capitalism as being receptive to being called uneducated or unknowing of the past, because we basically do nothing but discuss the past to formulate a better way into our collective future.

@Diego Duarte: Not to diminish the scope of Sexual Assault in Sweden, but it is indeed closely tied to being underreported in most countries that Sweden is usually compared to, and that there is a much more thorough discussion of sexual violence and sexism in general in Sweden than in the rest of the Nordic countries. Indeed, a common dog-whistle for Danish Misogynists and Racists is their insistence on “Swedish Conditions” being a society overly sensitive to exaggerated and outlandish claims by women and minorities, basically a term used to smear feminists and antiracists, basically an older version of SJW’s Run Amok(tm).

Concerning far-right extremism in the Nordic Countries, there’s a lot of common ground, but also significant differences. I won’t include Finland in this, as there are distinct differences culturally, historically and politically, between Finland and the rest of Scandinavia. First, the history differs: Denmark and Norway were occupied by Nazi Germany, and while they were not treated identically, they were terrorized less openly than most other countries occupied. Sweden was never occupied, and enjoyed an uneasy peace with Germany. Although there was a lot of anti-nazi sentiments, there were also alot of business’ who did rather well, and for many, the war represented an economic boon. This in turn translated to a history of resistance against nazism in Norway and Denmark, although the actual participation in active resistance has been wildly exaggerated in the public discourse following the war, as well as trial and sentencing of collaborators. In Sweden, there has been less of a reckoning, meaning that there has been more of an underground acceptance to National Socialist theory. In Denmark, the projected self-image as having been on the right side of the war is very prolific, but ultimately flawed, as most people seemd happy to just get on with their lives, as long as the occupation didn’t affect them personally. This means that many danes are incredibly blind to issues of race, as they believe themselves to be beyond this on account of our history. This may be less the case in Norway, as they were treated noticeably harsher by the occupiers, as the resistance was more forceful in Norway.

In a danish context, this makes it possible for the governing parties and the so-called opposition, to scapegoat muslim immigrants and refugees, while they dismantle the collective welfare that was origianlly spurred on by the Social Democrats and a strong, organized workers movement.

TL/DR: The Nordic Countries are being messed up by regressive politicians, are not as tolerant as you(or we ourselves) believed.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Did anyone watch Trump’s tariff press conference? It seemed like he was actually trying to blackmail Canada and Mexico to get his way on NAFTA. Did anyone else get that impression. He claimed originally that he wanted to get rid of cheating from China, but then he praised Xi Jinping talking about what a great guy he was. He didn’t praise any other leaders. Then he said our allies were the ones cheating us.

I did read today that the tariff would actually help China and Russia, but that analysis was from Goldman Sachs who I don’t trust anymore than I trust Trump. But after Trump’s little performance today, I’m inclined to believe them on this.

Then there was the earlier press conference in which Trump sent off Larry Kohn by calling him a globalist multiple times. I have not seen this called out on cable news as an anti-Semitic dog whistle but I’m quite sure it was.

Anyone have thoughts?

Shadowplay
2 years ago

It seemed like he was actually trying to blackmail Canada and Mexico to get his way on NAFTA. Did anyone else get that impression.

Get out of my head, please. That were my exact thought (almost word for word). 😛

It’s pure Mafia business – “nice steel industry you got there, shame if someone tariffs it to oblivion.” The “suspension” of applying the tariffs to Canada and Mexico only drives the point home deeper.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

Anyone have thoughts?

Lots; but none of them repeatable in polite company.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

Did anyone watch Trump’s tariff press conference? It seemed like he was actually trying to blackmail Canada and Mexico to get his way on NAFTA. Did anyone else get that impression. He claimed originally that he wanted to get rid of cheating from China, but then he praised Xi Jinping talking about what a great guy he was. He didn’t praise any other leaders. Then he said our allies were the ones cheating us.

Well, not sure you’ve heard about this but México has started negotiating trade policies with Argentina and Perú, ever since Trump got elected. They’re gearing up to give the US the middle finger and go full nuclear on a trade war. They’re looking to be less reliant in regards to trade with the USA.

And naturally, since we’re Latino brethren we’re backing them up. Anything that Trump does is going to come back and bite him in the ass. Unfortunately, many innocent people are going to suffer higher prices because of him.

@(A)utonomist Escapist

Thanks for the insightful comments. It was a very interesting read.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Female Yid,

Socialist anarchism and worker’s control might be the answer, but they have a strong history of failing miserably and careening out of control pretty quickly as the stupidest prole is viewed as equal to the smartest economist.

the stupidest prole is viewed as equal to the smartest economist

*laughs nervously* there’s um, quite a few problems here. First one: that’s not how equality works.

Wanda
Wanda
2 years ago

I think to people who grew up in cities, this sort of unbridled bigotry seems brand new, but I grew up in Pennsyltucky, and as a white person who racist white people have felt comfortable showing their racism to, this shit is not rare at all. My school had maybe one black kid in it. One time a black guy visited the school and talked to my teacher, and some kids were making jokes about getting out their white pointy hats. There’s a reason no black people lived in my hometown. Rural Pennsylvania will give the old southern racism a run for its money, let me tell you that.

Only now have I had the chance to work with people who are as liberal as me, and it’s great. I’ve been fortunate in that my parents are pretty liberal (my mother is more economically liberal than she is socially liberal, but at least she didn’t vote for Trump and she always rants about him when I’m home). But to see city journalists go into rural places with a mic in hand, dying to talk to and get that “country wisdom” from Trump voters is embarassing. There’s no reason they voted for Trump beyond racism– trust me. And it’s not a “poor white person” thing, because rich white people felt perfectly comfortable voting for him as well. Articles like this one about Johnstown was a great example of how awful journalism is in regards to journalists from liberal cities trying to “understand” po’ white folk, completely ignoring a) all the black people that live in Johnstown and b)acting as if poor white people are the problem, when much richer and much whiter counties, like those outside of Pittsburgh, actually voted more for Trump than the county Johnstown is in.

It all strikes me as so voyeuristic, like rich white liberals are looking into a zoo to observe the poor sad redneck TrumpVoter™, when Trump voters live within their own communities and are probably part of their own families. But becaue these Trump voters are rich white people who don’t live in trailer parks, they’re somehow not as “interesting” to write about. Just like how journalism will look down on the KKK, but will describe Richard Spencer as “dapper”. Same deal, different package.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with these shitty Nazis. I just thought I’d say my two cents about how insular liberal cities are and how we can fool ourselves into thinking conservative white Christian rural people “aren’t that bad”. Oh, they’re bad. Trust me. They’re bad. And once we start recognizing that, we can settle in for a long and prolonged fight without expecting instant change.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Well, not sure you’ve heard about this but México has started negotiating trade policies with Argentina and Perú, ever since Trump got elected. They’re gearing up to give the US the middle finger and go full nuclear on a trade war. They’re looking to be less reliant in regards to trade with the USA.

I didn’t know that, but it makes sense. I’ve got to imagine that Trump sees all of Latin America as a third world dump with no economic power, because that’s how racists roll. I’m sure still thinks Mexico will roll over for him even though Pena Nieto has been pretty hostile to Trump so far.

Really, in any country standing up to Trump is going to be a good move politically because everyone hates him. He seems to have told himself that the media is out to get to him and is disguising the fact that everyone loves him.

Janis Ian said it best
http://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw757gCu5b1r317bvo1_500.gif

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

I really felt like things were moving forward, and we were making progress. I went to Stuyvesant high school in Tribeca, and it was common to see same sex couples holding hands, or kissing in the halls. LGBTQ students were treated like everybody else. Same for race.

I went to a dinky little high school way out in the back of the woods, and though we had early marriage and gun racks and pickups there, we also had what you had: gay kids whom everyone knew to be gay but who were not hounded on that account; open displays of affection between those same gay kids; and interracial couples who weren’t persecuted (what shows up in retrospect as even more remarkable about this was that we had relatively few black kids, though we had plenty of Hispanics and some Asians) but almost kind of looked-up-to in a way. Things may have changed since then, but I can’t see that they’ve changed for the better.

How did we get here from there in such a short time?

Drat me if I know. (I’m writing this principally to let you know that the same change in atmosphere you’ve noticed in NYC is also to be found almost 3000 miles away on the opposite coast. IOW, You Are Not Alone.)

Things couldn’t have been this bad underneath all along, could they?

The potential must always have been there, otherwise the potential couldn’t have manifested itself — but aside from that, this is a question to which I have no answer. Happy dreams.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Katie, Wanda, et al,

I grew up naive in a lot of ways. My city is progressive. I knew racism still existed but I thought it was mostly subconscious bias type of stuff when I was a teen in the nineties. The only time I ever witnessed homophobia was when I went to a diving meet in Ohio at age 15 and some divers from Indiana called my very flamboyantly gay coach a f** They also sexually harassed one of my teammates. Lovely guys. It shocked me because my block had a gay couple and a lesbian couple living on it and nobody in the neighborhood cared or treated them differently. I thought homophobia was a thing of the past. I wrote it off as an aberration.

Then when I went to college in rural Illinois, on orientation week someone (and we all knew who) wrote “go home n*****s” on the wipeboard of the dorm room door belonging to twin bothers from Ghana. The suspected culprit ended up getting expelled later in the year for making an obscene call to the housing dean’s wife. So yeah, misogyny and other bigotry always seems to go together. Since I was a little more mature this time the lesson stuck. I was privilege blind due to being a white cishet person from a progressive area. If there’d been more of an internet culture at the time, I might have figured it out sooner, but there’s definitely a liberal bubble thing going in a lot of cities.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@dust bunny

What you said. So. fucking. much.

I’m an engineer working in oil and gas. I was more than aggressively told to f off during my MEng. The men I was told to manage sexually harassed me relentlessly, spoke incredibly degradingly about women and were just overall arrogant jackasses.

I’ve spoken with female petroleum engineers from Muslim majority countries. Despite being in many ways repressed, they didn’t feel their male colleagues were treating them as outsiders. Sure they had extremely old-fashioned views as to how they should behave and discriminated against them based on these beliefs, they never told them to get out. They also had a tendency of ”lowering their gaze” (i.e showing deference) when they passed by and did not sexually harass as much.

Many women from Saudi Arabia also told me that engineering is considered a clerical job ideal for women. Manufacturing trades in factories are considered a man’s job, as they are hot and women’s veils make it uncomfortable.

This is what I mean by hating women and treating them paternalistically being different. These Muslim men certainly view these women as being forced into a certain role, but didn’t disrespect them, at least not nearly as much

Also the Norwegian Gender Paradox is right-wing horseshit invented by men who’ve absolutely no idea what women go through and the cultural differences in gendered labor division.. It is implicit islamophobia, as it assumes Muslim countries are all sexist shitholes. They’ve done absolutely no analysis of women’s experiences and how equality in public is not equality in private.. More often than not, men who promote this garbage are the ones who most make STEM women’s lives miserable and believe orientalist stereotypes about Middle-Easterners, my Mizrahi Jewish self included.

@Scildfreja

I’m a bitch. Get used to it.

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@everyone-discussing-the-trade-war

Ever wonder why Clinton outraised Trump many times to one? It isn’t because of the right-wing conspiracy theories about Clinton, it’s because corporate America cares very deeply about its bottom line and is absolutely vicious when it comes to anything even vaguely threatening it. GM and Ford stand to lose close to a billion in profits if Trump’s steel tariffs go through.

Most white trash that voted for Trump are economic illiterates.

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

I’m a bitch. Get used to it.

I’m not going to tell women that they shouldn’t be as aggressive and forthright as men, but… have you considered not being an asshole?

Female Yid
Female Yid
2 years ago

@EJ

No.

You have to be an asshole in my industry or the arrogant male jackasses you have to deal with won’t take you seriously.

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

Okay, let me rephrase:

Have you considered not being an asshole all the time, even to nice people in kind social spaces rather than in a professional environment?