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Why is it worse for women to cheat than for men? “Because Penis,” Redditor explains

Cloudy with a chance of … you don’t want to know

By David Futrelle

From the Unpopular Opinions subreddit, a rather ingenious explanation as to why it’s much, much worse for men (well, cis men) to cheat on (cis) women than it is for women to cheat on men:

Girls cheating on guys is 10 times worse than guys cheating on girls because Penis. (self.unpopularopinion) submitted 15 days ago by OpinionManVIP Practically speaking, the main pieces of equipment involved in the act of sex are he penis and the vagina. When a guy cheats and has sex with a different girl, it’s just another hole. Sure maybe it can be tighter, but it’s pretty much the same deal. When a GIRL cheats on a GUY and experiences a new penis, she experiences something different that her boyfriend can NEVER give her. If the guy she’s cheating with is bigger, smaller, or even just shaped in a certain way there are things every guy has in his arsenal that are his signature strengths / weaknesses. And for females, that makes the experience of cheating so much more to be guilty about.

This was an unpopular opinion even for Reddit, with everyone in the comments arguing against this unique insight from OpinionManVIP, who not only seems to have never had sex but also to have never watched any porn. Seriously, dude, if you believe this you are Very Bad at Sex.

H/T — r/TheBluePill

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Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Oh my gosh not everyone has the day off work, you know. Calm it down there tusky.

Now let’s peel some nonsense apart to see if there’s anything actually in there!

http://oi45.tinypic.com/250ia9t.jpg

Before getting into the nitty-gritty, I gotta point out here – you don’t actually believe in or care about any of the evidence you’re pointing out here. You’re saying it because it supports you, but as soon as it’s shot down (which it has been already) you’ll just shrug and continue on obliviously. Because – as you said earlier – this is all instinct. Intuition. Gut-feel. Duckspeak. You’re not interested in truth, you’re interested in feeling right.

That said, I won’t spend too long knocking over these targets; the work’s been done by others and it’s obvious that it won’t sway you.

First, some things you’ve said:

And of course male and female hearts are not that different, physiologically speaking, but to be psychologically speaking, they are yin-and-yang

There are plenty of studies that show that men and women do react differently to all sorts of situations. Virtually all of them say that those differences are societal, not inherent.

I mean, you do realize that what you’ve said here is sort of counter to your argument, right? You’re saying that the differences between us are instilled by society and aren’t inherent to our biology. Almost everywhere else you’re claiming the opposite.

You argue against yourself. Not a good sign for the strength of your position, my duck.

But the moment a Male mate leaves the Female mate alone, much more often than not , she’s going to stray

Patriarchal honour systems punish women much more heavily for infidelity. Three points are supported. 1) Infidelity, or the perception of infidelity in women damages the honour of men related to her, 2) this damage can be partially corrected by domestic violence, and 3) women in this situation are expected to stay loyal despite this violence.

No such system punishes men, just women.

What you are experiencing is the perception that women are disloyal moreso than men, and punished less for it. This is because of your subjective bias. You think your subjective position is an objective position. It is not.

Vandello, Joseph A., and Dov Cohen. “Male honor and female fidelity: implicit cultural scripts that perpetuate domestic violence.” Journal of personality and social psychology 84.5 (2003): 997.

Human females are addicted to the feeling of being in Love , which gradually faded away after around four years at most

False. I’ll take that down in one of the papers you’ve cited. But it’s wrong.

half of all heterosexual marriages end in divorce and 80% of divorces are unilaterally initiated by the wives and of those that remain married, half of the wives in them are adulterous or wish that they were

And yet, among younger couples – those under 35 – the divorce rate is stable or declining. You know, those feminist, liberalized youths. The divorce rate itself is greatly leveling, and one of the biggest suspected reasons for this is because women are being more selective in their partners, making later divorce less likely.

Women, making choices that are good for them, resulting in happier relationships for all involved. You know, feminism.

Kennedy, Sheela, and Steven Ruggles. “Breaking up is hard to count: The rise of divorce in the United States, 1980–2010.” Demography 51.2 (2014): 587-598.

Second, to the references

As a note, just dropping a link and going “aha! Here’s my source! Read it and weep!”is a pretty big tell that you’re just bullshitting here, not looking for truth.

Because you’ve been here before, you’re just turning a crank that makes you giggle, and we’ve done this before. How are you doing?

Again, won’t spend long on these, ’cause you don’t give a damn about the truth anyways.

In the Brain, Love is Basically an Addiction

Written by a science journalist, not a scientist. Not that that specifically matters, but in this case it does. Because the journalist doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Romantic love activates the “dopamine reward pathway”, it claims, and that’s a true claim! The activity in the nucleus accumbens is the primary culprit of the addictivity, we believe. We see activity there in the use of almost all addictive drugs, and many non-addictive but nice ones.

We also see activity there when a person is exposed to anything they find nice or rewarding.

If you want to have the position that love is addictive, you have to also hold the position that everything nice is addictive.

That’s dumb. Don’t do that.

Two minds
The cognitive differences between men and women

WWTH did a great job of pulling this apart. I’ll only add one thing. Almost all of the structural stuff we know about gender differences in neuroanatomy are from fMRI or PET scan studies of adults or animals. And brain regions get larger with use. If women are told they have to handle all of the emotional work in a relationship, and spend decades doing just that, they’re going to have larger cognition centres responsible for those functions. If they’ve got to manage more people, they’ll have larger brain regions responsible for facial recognition.

The author of this paper, a science journalist, doesn’t link any of the studies, so I can’t critique them directly, but I’m familiar with some- some are quite famous. The rhesus monkey one, for example, that WWTH cites, isn’t “gathering dust” as the author claims. It’s in undergraduate textbooks. And is heavily critiqued for flawed methodologies.

There are likely neurological differences between men and women, but there are no justifications for the behaviours you’re suggesting.

Married Women Who Cheat Have More Secret Lovers and Stray A Year Earlier Than Men

Nice article. Based on the UK Adultery Survey of 2012. It has some interesting things to say that challenge the perspective of women being generally disinterested in sex, for one. It has some serious flaws, though. For example, the survey points out that women are more likely to keep their adultery secret. Take a look up at the source I linked that points out that men are conditioned to believe that domestic violence is a valid response to infidelity and then read your article again.

This survey agrees with the feminist position that traditional marriage is often oppressive. The declining divorce rates amongst younger people is a good sign that marriages are becoming more about partnership than before. That’s a good thing!

It’s a shame this isn’t an actual survey.

Oh, did you not get that part? See, this was written by a science journalist (notice a trend here?), and they again provide no links. So I did some digging. This “Adultery Survey” is a bit of promotional newsmaking from an adultery dating website. It hasn’t been peer reviewed, their methodologies are opaque and likely garbage, and there is zero reason to take what it says at face value. Because it wasn’t done by scientists, it was done by advertisers who want your money.

That’s all I have time for for now – your other links are news articles from literal newspapers, more interested in making people buy their writing than they are in truth. Not exactly the bastion of unbiased thinking these days. You’ve also got some obviously biased sources and – lol – a literal TV Tropes page. You know a Trope isn’t true, it’s a stereotype that makes good fiction.

Why does it always come back to fiction?

You may get more later, I dunno. Work time. Toodles!

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Addenda!

As a I said in my last post —- and this is actually age-old wisdom we’ve all heard before —- to summarise my own position in this matter: human females generally give/have sex with human males in order to get love from them.

Age-old wisdom includes the thought that the world is flat.

Age-old wisdom includes the thought that the sun orbits the earth.

Age-old wisdom includes the thought that swans come from acorns.

Age-old wisdom is bollocks.

More specific to your argument, “women give sex to get love” isn’t true just because it’s been said for a long time. They said that bad winds cause diseases for a long time, too, until the germ theory came about.

Surrender to the truth. It isn’t so bad once you’re in it.

JDSM
JDSM
2 years ago

Hmmm, food for thought and I will consider it, on behalf of Fluttershy hehehe no, seriously, for me, she’s the best!

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/309403-waifu

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

WWTH did a great job of pulling this apart. I’ll only add one thing. Almost all of the structural stuff we know about gender differences in neuroanatomy are from fMRI or PET scan studies of adults or animals. And brain regions get larger with use.

I knew there was a point I was intending to make and forgetting! Thanks!

Yes, troll, the notion that brains have no plasticity and stay the same throughout our lives is extremely outdated. Environment changes our brains. Brain imaging studies show correlation, not causation.

I always thought it would be interesting if a study could be done where children were raised gender neutrally in complete isolation on an island with no TV, internet or books from the outside world. It’s about the only way you could hope to measure inherent sex difference. It’d be prohibitively expensive, unfortunately.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Eww. I think that Fluttershy is my waifu link might be getting into banning territory. I’ll let others decide on that one though.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@WWTH
Already emailed the cat overlords when he implied he was jerking off to VP.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

WWTH:

I always thought it would be interesting if a study could be done where children were raised gender neutrally in complete isolation on an island with no TV, internet or books from the outside world. It’s about the only way you could hope to measure inherent sex difference. It’d be prohibitively expensive, unfortunately.

Riiiiight. Good luck getting that past the IRB!

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@WWTH,

I always thought it would be interesting if a study could be done where children were raised gender neutrally in complete isolation on an island with no TV, internet or books from the outside world. It’s about the only way you could hope to measure inherent sex difference. It’d be prohibitively expensive, unfortunately.

We can get close to that with cross-cultural studies!

Barry, H. III, Bacon, M. K., & Child, I. L. (1957). A cross-cultural survey of some sex differences in socialization. The Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 55(3), 327-332.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/h0041178

“A survey of certain aspects of socialization in 110 cultures shows that differentiation of the sexes is unimportant in infancy, but that in childhood there is, as in our society, a widespread pattern of greater pressure toward nurturance, obedience, and responsibility in girls, and toward self-reliance and achievement striving in boys. There are a few reversals of sex difference, and many instances of no detectable sex difference; these facts tend to confirm the cultural rather than directly biological nature of the differences. Cultures vary in the degree to which these differentiations are made; correlational analysis suggests some of the social conditions influencing these variations, and helps in understanding why our society has relatively small sex differentiation.” (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

This troll has always liked pushing boundaries for lols. Ugh. Thank you for emailing, kupo!

The fluttershy link just leads to a google autocomplete picture for me, was it something else?

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@JDSM
Do you realize that you said you would read something because of a cartoon character and not because it was kindly offered as relevant to something you posted?

That’s really shitty. And to change the subject to your feelings about the cartoon character instead of your earlier assertions is not only rude but part if the underlying social problems people tend to care about around here.

Just in case you aren’t banned I would suggest thinking carefully about why you might be ignoring what other people are responding to you with.

Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
2 years ago

“Why is Fluttershy a tree”? What’s up with that search term?

(formerly) DepressedCNS
(formerly) DepressedCNS
2 years ago

Hi all, long time lurker, not a big commenter. But I do enjoy these science threads.

Writing in to second Cordelia Fine’s book. There is a section where she completely trounces the monkey/gender preference study. There is a particularly entertaining passage about why female monkeys would prefer playing with pots, given they haven’t invented cooking yet.

Fine also talks a lot about reverse inferences in neuroscience (what Scild said re: behavior causing brain differences versus brain differences causing behavior). The analogy used is that it is nearly impossible to predict the location/type of objects based on the shape of their cast shadow (opposed to predicting what shadow will be cast given the shape of an object, which can be done easily).

Here’s really the best take-away from the book:

“As the result of my research, I have come up with four basic pieces of advice for anyone considering incorporating neuroscientific findings into a popular book or article about gender:

(1) unless you have a time machine and have visited a future in which neuroscientists can make reverse inferences without the nagging anxieties that keep the more thoughtful of them awake at night, do not suggest that parents or teachers treat boys and girls differently because of differences observed in their brains;

(2) if you don’t know what a reverse inference us, read the previous chapter of this book;

(3) exercise extreme caution when making the perilous leap from brain structure to psychological function; and

(4) don’t make stuff up”

– Cordelia Fine

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

I’d like to be a tree

comment image

(It’s a joke in the show)

PocketNerd
PocketNerd
2 years ago

Thus spake ZaraImaginary Petal:

Ban the kid. He’s boring.

What, seriously? The guy is comedy gold. I’ve never seen a more hilarious example of the ridiculous intellectual bankruptcy of MRAs. JDSM is so buffoonish, so smugly impressed with himself while being comically wrong about everything, he’s like a Saturday Night Live sketch about “red pillers.” Or Lucy Van Pelt’s withering condescension at Charlie Brown not knowing that snow actually comes up, not down.

If Reddit weren’t full of dudes spouting exactly the same talking points, I’d suspect JDSM of being a sock puppet from somebody determined to make MRAs look bad.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

JDSM is just one of the regular trolls we get who’s here primarily to annoy people and be ridiculous. He really does believe the things he says, of course, but he’s got zero interest in an actual discussion. I’m pretty sure he’s eaten seagull pie once or twice, and may or may not be a 329 year old vampire.

He’s out-and-out admitted to being here just to annoy people, and apparently thinks that he’s “making us” reply to his stupid points, and that that’s really funny. For me, I reply to him ’cause I like pulling apart the arguments to see if there’s anything true in there at all – once in a rare while there’s a kernel of it amidst the wreckage.

His mind isn’t ever going to be changed, he’s convinced of his own intellectual superiority. Others reading, though, deserve to see his arguments carved at the joints!

Rip in peace, JDSM. See you under your next nym.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@(formerly) DepressedCNS ! I remember your comments. I’m glad you’re no longer depressed, good for you! And a great commentary there. I will have to read that!

(formerly) DepressedCNS
(formerly) DepressedCNS
2 years ago

Yeah, Fine is a seriously bad-ass lady neuroscientist.

Thanks Scild. It does feel good to be doing alright. I always enjoy your comments; it’s nice to see someone trying to make the internet a better place and I always learn something.

I know there has been a lot of mental-health chat around the comments lately and I just want to say to anyone feeling particularly down; solidarity. It may feel like you’re going to feel bad for forever but that’s an insidious symptom of depression-brain. Keep reaching out to people and trying different things until you find something that works, because you are worthy of getting your mental health to a manageable place and living without that shadow.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

For me, I reply to him ’cause I like pulling apart the arguments to see if there’s anything true in there at all – once in a rare while there’s a kernel of it amidst the wreckage.

Or at least a flight data recorder whose contents can inspire interesting insights about the failure modes of human cognition, eh?

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@(formerly) DepressedCNS

Just wanted to say that is one of the best nym changes ever. 🙂

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

I have recently come across a useful but annoying paper. Useful because it puts some structure on the idea of a social decision making network in the brain. The network has two limbs:

The social decision-making network may have two functionally complementary limbs: the basal ganglia component responsible for evaluation of socially relevant stimuli and actions with the social behaviour network component responsible for the performance of social acts.

The social behavior network consists of,

The SBN consists of a densely interconnected group of subcortical nuclei regulating male and female mating behaviours, aggression, and parental behaviours. A defining feature of all SBN nuclei is expression of high
levels of gonadal steroid receptors. SBN components include the medial amygdala-bednucleus of the stria terminalis (MA-BNST; functionally conjoint structures part of
the extended amygdala), the hypothalamic medial preoptic area (MPOA), the anterior hypothalamus, the ventromedial
hypothalamus (VMH), the lateral septum, and the mid-brain periaqueductal grey-central grey (PAG). Recent comparative studies describe this system as conserved across
all vertebrate phyla.

The “disorder” stuff needs reevaluating big time. Still tourettes syndrome is a useful thing to compare to such systems and their human expression.

Tourette syndrome: a disorder of the social decision-making network.

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

I’m still feeling creeped out by the word waifu being in that link.
Can we, please not have crushes on cartoon ponies please?

misophistry
misophistry
2 years ago

I enjoyed arguing with JDSM, but I would still ban him just for the constant tsk tsk tsking. Then he will have to come back as a different sock and come up with a new affectation.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

JDSM’s use of waifu was sexist as hell and worthy of consequence, the reality is more complicated and I don’t want to diminish their behavior so they can rot in moderation or be banned and it makes no difference to me.

As a phenomena it involves a bond akin to fan-crush with added elements in my limited perspective (many of us at ponychan had them). Choice in bonding is not so simple, acting sexist with a cartoon character while pretending they will read what Scildfreja wrote is easily condemnable.

Katzentier
Katzentier
2 years ago

As another silent lurker.. I also really enjoy all the things I learn when the trolls arguments get ripped apart. So please do keep up the good work. ❤️

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Welcome, @Katzentier! That’s for speaking up, i’m glad you like the fireworks!

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