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Congrats! A Voice for Men and Return of Kings have both been designated hate groups by the SPLC

Paul Elam of A Voice for Men: Now officially a hatemonger

By David Futrelle

A big round of applause for two websites that have featured here on We Hunted the Mammoth from the beginning: A Voice for Men and Return of Kings have both been officially recognized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups. 

The hate-monitoring group announced the news in its latest “Year in Hate” report yesterday. “[F]or the first time,” the report declared,

the SPLC added two male supremacy groups to the hate group list: A Voice for Men, based in Houston, and Return of Kings, based in Washington, D.C. The vilification of women by these groups makes them no different than other groups that demean entire populations, such as the LGBT community, Muslims or Jews, based on their inherent characteristics.

Both groups have more than earned this long-overdue designation. If you need to be reminded just how, take a stroll through the archives here for literally hundreds of examples of hateful rhetoric and actions by both AVFM and RoK, and/or their respective founders, Paul Elam and Roosh V.

You may also notice, in your stroll through the archives, that both AVFM and (especially) RoK have embraced some of the most noxious views of the racist alt-right directly. Indeed, one of the most notorious participants in the racist Charlottesville march last year — a man jailed for his assault on a counterprotester — was a former contributor to AVFM.

Elam’s response so far to his recognition as a hatemonger by the SPLC has actually been somewhat tame, at least by his standards.

https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/966383611841859586

https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/966386487846686725

He also retweeted this lovely sentiment from someone whose Twitter handle is a not-very-subtle reference to the c-word.

https://twitter.com/KruntFrucker/status/966385645743755264

This dude was even more pissed:

https://twitter.com/has_baal/status/966405995999227904

Roosh’s response to his inclusion on the list was a bit, shall we say, ironic as well:

https://twitter.com/rooshv/status/966402313341595652?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Thanks for proving the SPLC’s point, guys!

The SPLC report also notes a number of other discomfiting facts, starting with this one:

The SPLC’s Year in Hate and Extremism report identifies 954 hate groups – an increase of 4 percent from 2016.

Some of this increase, the report says, was due to a resurgence of fringe black nationalist groups — which the SPLC is quick to distinguish from “activist groups such as Black Lives Matter and others that work for civil rights and to eliminate systemic racism.”

But the real danger comes from the racist right.

[B]lack nationalist groups lagged far behind the more than 600 hate groups that adhere to some form of white supremacist ideology – and they have virtually no supporters or influence in mainstream politics, much less in the White House.

Within the white supremacist movement, neo-Nazi groups saw the greatest growth – from 99 groups to 121. Anti-Muslim groups rose for a third straight year. They increased from 101 chapters to 114 in 2017 – growth that comes after the groups tripled in number a year earlier.

Ku Klux Klan groups, meanwhile, fell from 130 groups to 72. The decline is a clear indication that the new generation of white suprem­acists is rejecting the Klan’s hoods and robes for the hipper image of the more loosely organized alt-right movement.

The overall number of hate groups likely understates the real level of hate in America, because a growing number of extremists, particularly those who identify with the alt-right, operate mainly online and may not be formally affiliated with a hate group.

These groups not only spew hatred; they have helped to spur a frightening rise in racist violence — and murder.

separate SPLC investigation, released earlier this month, found that 43 people were killed and 67 wounded by young men associated with the alt-right over the past four years. Seventeen of the deaths came in 2017.

So AVFM and RoK are in some pretty shitty company here.

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occasional reader
occasional reader
3 years ago

Yeay, i was missing Scildfreja Unnyðnes scientific explanations !
So, copulin would be a potential copulation enhancer ? I did not know that. I think i had read that pheromons were almost no more percieved by humans (and that was the reason that pheromon perfumes and the like were just scams).
Wait, if copulin is really linked to couplation, but they believe it is to manipulate men, how should it be called ? Cheirismandrolin ?

Shadowplay
3 years ago

I nominate kynodesmin as the name. 😛

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@occasional reader,
I’m not a science-person (I’m in the dreaded social sciences), but I’ve also read that pheromones are weaker in humans, relative to other animals.
Science mammotheers, pls weigh in!

@Shadowplay
I had to look that up, tbh. But it’s a winner 😁👏

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
3 years ago

Watching Scildfreja explain things to incels reminds me of Fluttershy explaining the construction flaws of a dress she wanted to be more haute couture. Except Scildfreja has more facts at her disposal.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

Watching Scildfreja explain things to incels reminds me of Fluttershy explaining the construction flaws of a dress she wanted to be more haute couture. Except Scildfreja has more facts at her disposal.

I think she wins hands down the award for kindest-most-collected-person. As in, I cannot fathom myself, or anyone I know, having 0.1% of her patience in dealing with these people.

Then again, I also think it’s for naught. You will be hard pressed to argue against these fools who will never be swayed of their positions. I spent half my life trying to talk sense into conservatives, only for them to double down on the racism.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

Reading Scildfreja’s beautiful, informative, implacable and amazingly kind takedowns makes me so happy.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

So, conservatives on Twitter are saying that while they of course totally condemn the death threats Parkland survivors are getting for speaking out against guns and the NRA, how can we know for sure they’re from NRA supporters?

https://twitter.com/AllenCMarshall/status/967622810414800896

Because it would make so much sense for pro gun control people or people with no opinion on control to threaten them.

It’s like gamergate all over again. And it wouldn’t surprise me if there was an overlap between gamergate harassers and gun fetishist harassers.

Carl Gordon Jenkins Gordon Jenkins
Carl Gordon Jenkins Gordon Jenkins
3 years ago

Then again, I also think it’s for naught. You will be hard pressed to argue against these fools who will never be swayed of their positions. I spent half my life trying to talk sense into conservatives, only for them to double down on the racism.

Its definitely not for naught. The person the takedown is primarily directed at my never absorb any of the information, but a lot of other people are reading it.

The effort put into this work is appreciated.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

You folks were speaking of Oglaf earlier, I remember one that mentioned the Anglerfish and anthropomorphized their… ahem, unusual dimorphism in a funny and verrry NSFW way (certain Anglerfish species have males a fraction of the size of females that live only to latch onto the underside of a female, feeding off their nutrients in exchange for donating sperm). The dapper housecoat-clad Anglerfish fellow relates the takeaway: nature produces life forms so alien to us that we reaaaaally shouldn’t be looking to it for human analogies.

Speaking as a guy who was educated in the hard sciences, I’m honestly getting really sick of people bastardizing sciences in the way that they are. Because when I was in my high school science classes, learning all sorts of new things about atomic theory and waveforms and chemical reactions… science was something bigger than an individual. It was not only the way that we explained what we saw around us, but it expanded what was once a narrow world of understanding, biology and sociology working together to bring illumination to the human tableau.

So to see is being constantly abused by transphobic asshats like Ben Shapiro and racists like Charles Murray and these incel creeps that reach for anything to explain why they don’t have to do any kind of introspection, it just pains me to see. And if they’re not pedantically exploiting some statistic or some narrow technical definition, they’re going around proclaiming any kind of science that invalidates their prejudices as somehow “not real science.” This trend really bothers me as somebody with even a passing understanding of the history of science and I don’t see it getting better when even the sciences are being culture jammed by these obnoxious twits.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@weirdwoodtreehugger

I think there’s definitely a bit of an overlap, and I may be speaking from a place of ignorance, but from my experience the gun enthusiasts seems to be mostly in their 40s and above, meaning Gen X and Boomers; whereas the Gamer Gate crowd is almost exclusively Millennials.

Personally, I’ve seen most of these threats of bodily harm coming from the older side of the spectrum (at least in regard to this particular issue), although this is undoubtedly a common tactic of authoritarian assholes, most of whom are on the Right side of the political spectrum.

And I do admit that, for the most part, semi-automatic weapons should be banned, but some small part of me worries about how these people will react if they lose the midterms and 2020 by a landslide. Remember they set fire to one of Roy Moore’s accusers in Alabama.

@Carl Gordon

I see. Well, so long as it’s for someone else’s benefit then it’s actually useful to refute these sort of ignorant positions.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ak4UA_5FypY/U10NFhWsGyI/AAAAAAAAHF0/8yfCsvXP36s/s1600/Rarity_asks_Fluttershy_for_some_feedback_S1E14.png

Well, he wanted an opinion, I assume!

daw, you guys, thank you <3 I – well, I was gonna say it baffles me how the incels can be wrong on this stuff when all you gotta do is a little looking and the answer falls into your lap. But it doesn't baffle me, it just makes me sad.

@Incel Revolutionary, I know you're probably never coming back, but if you are reading – learn to google things with discrimination! The googs is great, but it also have evidence for everything on it! Heck, there’s evidence supporting flat earth theory and chemtrails on there! You have to learn how to discern. If you want help with that, say so! I will help!

@Mish, social sciences are absolutely sciences too! They’re vital, and frankly the math is much harder than the other sciences. I mean sure you don’t have to do the esoteric calculus and field equations in engineering, but there are computers that can handle a lot of that. Social sciences are just volume. So much volume, impossible volume. Very challenging, and much respect!

@occasional reader,

So, copulin would be a potential copulation enhancer ? I did not know that. I think i had read that pheromons were almost no more percieved by humans (and that was the reason that pheromon perfumes and the like were just scams).

As far as I can tell, copulins are just a chemical in vaginal secretions, and I don’t know whether they operate through the olfactory-VNO system that pheromones do. “Normal” pheromones are detected by very, very selective olfactory receptors from the air, and then activate a little nerve bundle called the vomeronasal organ. From there they scoot off to the amygdala/hypothalamus (by normal neural activity,
not the invasion of the pheromone body snatchers). From there the brain-bits activated will increase or decrease the production of certain hormones/neuropeptides. Copulins might use this mechanism, or might not, we aren’t sure. If so, then the signal the VNO/Hypothalamus system eventually sends is “make some more testosterone please, there is a lady here what is getting close to ovulation.”

There are two big problems with the premise that our incel revolutionary is claiming. First is that the actual studies examining copulin activity on the brain are not really clean. They’re exposing men to copulins and then asking them to rate the attractiveness of women’s faces in photos, as an example. They found that men exposed to copulins rated the women consistently more attractive than those who were not. Which is a fine study methodology, but it entangles a lot of things, because the men weren’t exposed to copulins, they were exposed to vaginal secretions. There’s a lot of stuff going on there and they weren’t separated! It’s a little baby step, not a breakthrough of the “ohmigod womz turn men into zombos” variety.

Second one is much more important: testosterones’ effect on humans is not consistent. We’re social, with big brains and complex motivations; pheromones don’t really do a whole lot to us overall and hormones express in lots of different ways. Excess testosterone increases aggression – except in cases where it decreases aggression, which it can do. Testosterone increases libido in men – and in women. Yeah, if a womz has copulin sensitivity, copulins might affect her just as they would a man. This might incidentally be a biological root of lesbian behaviour (one of many, probs!). That’s a really interesting question, but of course it hasn’t been tested because science has a sexism problem, but it’s one worth looking into in my opinion! Interesting!

An increase in testosterone from copulins will have one result: an increase in testosterone. How that expresses in behaviour is very situational.

I done a ramble! Sorry guyse. I get carried away.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, I don’t write these posts for the trolls generally. Sometimes! I mean, if he comes back that’s great, let’s have a talk! But otherwise it’s for others who are reading the thread. I don’t want later readers to get the impression that these trolls have any actual science behind them, cause that’s just… offensive.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@wwth, I’m, like, 85% sure that the gamergate crowd is now the neonazi crowd. That was basically the Breitbart radicalization channel, after all. WoW gold sellers -> GamorGert -> ButHerEmails -> Nazis. Bannon’s history is pretty clear on it.

I just wish this whole “False flag!” explanation would wither and die. I mean, it never will, but I hates it so much. It’s so lazy. Like, I don’t know how anyone claiming to be a True Skeptic ™ can make the claim without immediately bursting into flames. Not to mention how offensive it is. Like, their rationalizations are just ways they justify being horrible, awful people. Harassing teenage survivors of gun violence. That’s what they’re justifying with the thinnest skein of justification. It’s disgusting.

That said, if anyone wanted to do any actual false flags, now is the time. Those dorkuses couldn’t suss out a false flag with two hands and a heraldry book.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m probably even more than 85% sure given that gg and the alt right share a few common celebs such as Milo, Juicebro and Ralph Retort. Not to mention all the times that gg used anti-Semitic “cultural Marxism” memes.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

I agree, the False Flag is the lowest hanging fruit and the laziest and easiest way to “refute” almost anything; because, as ridiculous as it sounds, it shifts the burden of proof to others. They are quite aware of this and Brandolini’s law, where the amount of energy necessary to disprove bullshit is much more than the energy required to produce it.

You can’t win. You just can’t. Not with arguments.

On the other hand, can we take the time to appreciate how the generation vilifying the survivors for being dumb kids who eat tide pods (which was at most 10 kids), subscribe to these stupid conspiracy theories in the millions?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Yeah, I agree. It’s pretty obvious that the angry video game mans have gotten radicalized over the past decade or so, and now feel bold enough to say so outside of the chans. (I just don’t like rating confidence above 85% ’cause I’m a cautious clarisse)

And yes, Diego, you can’t win with arguments. The arguments are for fence-sitters, really, and to help clarify things for people who agree but aren’t sure why. Getting through to these people requires, uh, well. More positioning than i have, I think.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
3 years ago

For some people, “skeptic” appears to mean, “I shout loudly when I hear about something that doesn’t make sense to me.”

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

Oh, I’m no longer commenting in relation to your takedown of Incel Revolutionary, which I understand it was for everybody else’s benefit because it does involve some pseudo-science; but in regard to conspiracy theories, which are far too ridiculous for anyone to believe.

Pretty much, to buy into conspiracy theories you have to be the sort of person who would be willing to blame victims from the get-go. Nothing is going to sway you because you have a vested interest in looking the other way, and ignoring every bit of evidence in how the systems and structures of power, which are built to uphold and maintain your privileges, dis-empower and damage everyone else.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Vicky P, yeah, the Troo Skeptics seem to think of skepticism as a weapon, directed outwards. They use it to protect their beliefs from outside threats. They don’t seem to be that motivated to use that skepticism on anything they already believe.

And that’s a really interesting way to think of it, @Diego! I’d never really thought of conspiracy theory thinking as being mostly about excusing awful behaviour, but maybe that’s what’s going on here! Like, is the theorist motivated specifically so they don’t have to feel bad about their racism/misogyny/miserliness? My gosh, Scientology makes sense now. That’s how it works.

Thank you!

JoeB
JoeB
3 years ago

Trump would be funny if he wasn’t the POTUS
“I really believe I’d run in there, even if I didn’t have a weapon,”
-Trump on Parkland shooting

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-he-would-have-run-florida-school-n851266?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

Well, this is just my take on the thing but look at the mainstream (ironic, yes) conspiracy theories of our time. From 9/11 to Pizzagate, most if not all conspiracy theories have to do with some sort of Deep State, running government from the shadows.

Now, anyone with common sense would tell you that this is no conspiracy at all, because the agents behind government are the powerful lobbyists and corporations who buy politicians, mostly from the Republican side but also on the Democrat side too.

Except, these people engage on Olympic level gymnastics to deflect blame not to the corporations and companies, which uphold the current social and economic system of oppression against women and vulnerable groups; but to some overly villainous, super-secret societies run by *gasp* The Jews.

So, even in the face of blatant oppression, many Whites will entirely buy into and spread conspiracy theories, painting vulnerable groups as gullible idiots, and the Jews as the mastermind behind such deep-level conspiracy.

The conspiracy crowd has concocted theories to discredit the events and protests ranging from Occupy Wall Street to Standing Rock.

So yes, personally I would say they are nothing but a tool of the privileged to deflect blame, in the cheapest manner possible, in order to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

But I could be wrong.

EDIT: Also note that the purpose seems to be, at best, to make you waste your effort fighting imaginary foes; and at worst to actually TAKE DOWN and dismantle any and every institution designed to address systemic oppression (i.e. Affirmative Action).

Faerie Bard
Faerie Bard
3 years ago

One of the last straws that finally made me break off a relationship with a relative was because he kept posting false flag claims about school shootings (as well as other conspiracy theory nonsense) on his Facebook feed. I tried to reason with him, but it did no good at all. His increased enthusiasm for guns (including the semi-automatic variety) was also freaking me out. I’m hoping maybe someone else on the fence saw my public plea for better judgement and maybe it got them thinking. I had to try… *sigh* If there was a way, I wish I knew how.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

It’s like gamergate all over again. And it wouldn’t surprise me if there was an overlap between gamergate harassers and gun fetishist harassers.

Given that the gaming industry lobbyists learned to cultivate the “gamer” identity right from the NRA, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. All the behaviour matches up: the harassment, the projection, the conspiracy theories, all of it.

@Vicky P

For some people, “skeptic” appears to mean, “I shout loudly when I hear about something that doesn’t make sense to me.”

Yeah, it certainly does now. I was reflecting the other day on how many “skeptic” channels I’ve had to unfollow because they started wading into anti-feminism and essentially I have only two or three left in my subscriptions: AronRa and the Atheist Experience. I’m also subbed to JDKain, but only because he only uploads once a week. DarkMatter? Gone. Dusty Smith? Hella gone. Amazing Atheist? Gone. ArmouredSkeptic? Gone. LiveLife8822? Gone. C0ctopus? Gone. BionicDance? Gone. Thunderf00t? The first one gone. All these guys (and they’re mostly guys) just doubled down on the anti-feminism to an absurd degree to the point that a couple are pretty much alt-right these days.

And I’ve been asking myself how it got to this point and I have to think at least part of it is the end of the Bush Administration culture wars. Sam Seder noted on his podcast that whenever right-wingers take power, they bring with it a renewal of culture war crap. During the Bush years, it was gay marriage and the 10 Commandments. Now it’s transgender pronouns and “freeze peach,” but at the time, there was an urgency surround the right’s obvious desperation to shift the focus away from Bush’s fuck-ups. Creationists on YouTube were all over the place and there was a thirst for people to push back against the bullshit. However, I started to notice that YouTube’s atheists seemed to just talk about the same three people over and over again as the big name Creationists of that medium either stopped uploading or moved on to other venues. Then when ElevatorGate happened, it was the perfect time for a shift in focus from Christians to Feminists/Muslims as the Obama administration’s successes had laid the groundwork for a backlash and it was clear at that point that the Creationists aren’t coming back to lean on. Well, what do you know, the right-wing hates Muslims and Feminists too, so all that righteous furor about how fundamentalist Christians were trying to seize the levers of power were turned to… Rebecca Watson feeling uncomfortable being propositioned in an elevator and Anita Sarkeesian critiquing video games.

Once Thunderf00t demonstrated dumping on feminists was profitable, GamerGate was just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, JDKain puts out a weekly video mocking the last two Young Earth Creationists on YouTube for saying the same dumb shit they did the week before. They lean on each other like a pair of drunks.

Where this goes from here? Not sure. If there’s one upside to the internet doing away with gatekeepers and social barriers, we find out how alike we really are to the point that there’s fewer and fewer boogeymen that can be used to induce panic. If they’re reaching to rainbow-haired trans kids, that means they’re desperate.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Scild, Diego
I know two conspiracy types and they’re both sweet people. One of them is definitely open to self-examination, the other not as much. I think for both of these people it’s driven by paranoia rather than excusing bad behavior. I think that the type of thinking that’s behind it is very common, and that type of thinking can be used for all kinds of applications.

I do wonder if groups like the NRA aren’t feeding into that kind of thought pattern to further their own goals (yes, this is a conspiracy theory, no I don’t have any evidence to back it).

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

Where this goes from here? Not sure. If there’s one upside to the internet doing away with gatekeepers and social barriers, we find out how alike we really are to the point that there’s fewer and fewer boogeymen that can be used to induce panic. If they’re reaching to rainbow-haired trans kids, that means they’re desperate.

To a good place, I’d like to think. After the Gamer Gate fiasco, the neonazi movement seems to have peaked with Charlottesville. The murder of Heather Heyer lost these rubes the support of many people within conservative politics and they have been getting the boot everywhere they go.

Yes, the Nazis are still a huge threat, but at least they’re losing ground thanks to their blatant toxicity. They’ve hit their wall. Now what needs to be done is reclaim the lost ground. I think the midterms are going to be pivotal to throw them out of power, for good.

The irony is that the Alt Right was meant to reinvigorate the dying conservative movement; instead, by making it explicitly toxic (or at least, more than it already was), they finished it off quicker than anyone on the Left could’ve hoped to.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Kupo

I see. Although I think your acquaintances are a far cry from the Alex Jones crowd. People with mental health issues are more likely to be victims than abusers, and the regular conspiracy theorist takes gaslightning to whole new levels.

What sort of conspiracies do they believe though?

As far as the NRA is concerned, they live off of fear in order to boost the sales of their sponsors, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they explicitly did it.

Bakunin
Bakunin
3 years ago

@ Katamount

Aww, crap. Dusty too? He had some videos I liked, and the style was fun. Then again, I was surprised by Laci Green falling into the fascist camp, so I might just be a bad judge of character.

Currently watching the same script they all follow for Krauss’s creepy shit.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Diego
I kind of tune out when they go into conspiracy mode and haven’t talked to either of those people in a while, but one I remember had to do with lawyers practicing law in the US (all of them) being implants from Britain to attempt to corrupt US law somehow? I couldn’t quite follow it. That same guy refused to file his taxes and wouldn’t listen when I tried to explain that the major corporation he worked for had already paid the taxes for him and that filing would get him a refund on the extra he paid.

And sorry if you were only referencing Alex Jones and the like. I thought you meant all conspiracy theorists. I would agree with you on him.

Edit: neither of these people would ever put up a YouTube channel because then they might get identified. They probably avoid posting or obfuscate their IP address if they do. One of them was planning to go off the grid, so might not even have internet access at this point.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@kupo

Yeah, those people you’re describing seem to be actually paranoid. People with legit mental health issues.

I didn’t take them into account when I made my statements because, honestly, at this point conspiracy theorists have become so mainstream that to speak of them is to speak of libertarian/paleo-conservative/Rand-roid, anti-Semite, racist, misogynist assholes.

Their levels of toxicity and notoriety are so high that I legit did not stop to consider the people who were actually suffering from mental health issues when the term “conspiracy theorists” came up, so I apologize on that front.

I guess that’s another group that gets screwed over by the Alex Jones crowd.

On another note, should the Right Wing conspiracy theories be viewed as another form of gaslightning? Considering they do somehow shift blame to vulnerable groups for their own situation.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

@Kupo

I think for both of these people it’s driven by paranoia

Which I can understand and appreciate to a certain extent. The popularity of the X-Files didn’t come out of a vacuum; an opaque surveillance state only gaining power only made people more unwary. Couple that with encroaching corporate power over the government and social media all but reading your mind to sell you shit… I get feeling paranoid. But there’s things in your power to do that don’t involve tinfoil hats.

ETA: @Bakunin

He’s redeemed himself somewhat by opposing the alt-right, but he has much farther to go to get back into my good graces after his rampant Facebook racism and homophobia. Dick Coughlin pointed out that Facebook Dusty and YouTube Dusty were basically two different people (although racist Dusty still reared his head on YouTube given his “Black Christians are Uncle Toms” hypothesis).

He strikes me as a guy desperate for attention more than having any core values.

JoeB
JoeB
3 years ago

I’m not on YouTube much anymore but I’m a fan of his twitter and he might still make content, C0nc0rdance(sp)

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Re: mental illness.
We have a problem as a society with more than one part. One big part is the fact that we include natural features of human behavior in the category. PTSD and anxiety disorders are reasonable responses to shitty experiences. When I read about the childhood experiences of people with the label psychopath I can see how a person would experience the world in that way. I think depression is what our brain does when we have certain experiences. (I’m not judging anyone taking medication to get by, this is more about underlying causes and figuring out how to fix society and learning how we shift mood states and functionally use instincts that are as old as social behavior, you do you).
I straight up believe that adhd, autism, tourettes syndrome, bpd, schizophrenia and many other things are in things are in this category as well. I was predisposed towards the more intense and impulsive ends of social feeling and expression, and I have the issue where I collect urge-based habits as I go through life, and my society reasonably needs a means of preparation and education so I’m in control of myself as an adult that’s themed for whatever my kind of human ends up being the best lables.

These labels are explanations and not excuses, if you’ve hurt someone, or violated their boundaries and keep doing it despite negative reactions, you need to fix your shit. Yes society sucks here when it comes to your part of this mess, I won’t post my list again because this isn’t about that outside of the general issue in this comment. I’m quite sure a great many serial shooters are depressed, it’s not an excuse for serial shooting. I’m sure a great many among the online mysogynistic murmerations have one or more of the kinds of depression. Instincts have a library of expressions, that is no excuse for this one.

Those things are not the same as damage from injury, infection, or developmental effects from environmental toxins either, though the same thing about hurting others still applies, at worst we accommodate as a group while creating social tools that prevent harm (like me controlling my urge-based instincts). They are not same as congenital conditions that cause individuals to suffer at the level of huntingtons disease either.

I can’t claim to have all of the answers, it’s a big bad language problem but I’m always thinking about and looking for politically useful tools to chip at the problem since this one is so common and mostly regardless of politics and political affiliation (the left does the talk better but the walk needs work). Demanding someone tie specific diagnostic criteria to a sample of someone’s communication in the context of shootings and rationalization about testimony from victims is a current habit I’m working on. It’s more broadly useful but I’m selective about it at the present because of the need to maintain political momentum and my own endurance limits. There are other tools and I’m sure there’s more than one way to use mine.

We are all political primates with swarming behavior and I see a lot of people applying the label out of a need to avoid something they feel negatively about. It’s fear that sticks out to me like a neon sign and it’s all I can do push the predator away and dial things down to a level I’m still not sure how to define. So for now the mysogynistic trolls and other aggressive bigots I’ve managed to develop a filter for will just have deal with the tool I’ve got. Best methods are more of a group thing.

@kupo

I do wonder if groups like the NRA aren’t feeding into that kind of thought pattern to further their own goals (yes, this is a conspiracy theory, no I don’t have any evidence to back it).

IMO yes and no depending on the specifics and how you want to look at an example. But please let me know if I’m far from what you are discussing.

Fear is a motivator, humans are receptive to it and do politics with it. But not all fear is rational and the irrational sort fuels paranoia, and urge-based behavior. For example I think being a demogogue is a neutral in some respects, but that the reasonableness of the fear is what society needs to work on. I’ll bet what I do about people with predatory behavior intersects with what demogogues do, fortunately history has presented me with negative examples to learn from (recent and distant).

Conspiracy theorists tend to be big on making connections and immediate gratification in my experience, but very poor or nothing when it comes to actually being able to demonstrate a connection outside of their opinion. I put this one in the political solutions box since it’s likely that messages can be created that appeal to people that they have a personal connection with. Otherwise they get public criticism when they make a reckless connection and I hope someone they are personally connected to can explain it in private too.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Yeah, those people you’re describing seem to be actually paranoid. People with legit mental health issues.

Please don’t armchair diagnose my friends. Paranoia can be prefectly healthy behavior. To my knowledge, this doesn’t interfere with their lives other than the one guy putting himself at risk by not paying his taxes, but he’s aware of that risk and if he’s not bothered by his behavior, it’s not for us to say it’s unhealthy.

And by using legitimate as a qualifier here, you’re implying that others don’t have legitimate health issues. How would you know that?

Let’s please not go there. My only point was that conspiracy theorists are not always about hiding or excusing bad behavior. Let’s not group everyone with a very common behavior together in this.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Brony, I know you mean well but what you’re saying expresses really stereotyped attitudes towards the mentally ill. This in particular

I’m not judging anyone taking medication to get by

is incredibly condescending. Do you judge people with insulin-dependent diabetes for taking insulin to “get by?”

Please, just don’t.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

Please don’t armchair diagnose my friends.

That wasn’t my intention, I was more or less repeating what you said, or at least I thought I was, given you were saying they had paranoia. Didn’t know it didn’t qualify as a mental health issue.

And by using legitimate as a qualifier here, you’re implying that others don’t have legitimate health issues. How would you know that?

My comment was in reference to the Alex Jones crowd, many of whom I’ve met. Those assholes are White supremacists, and very Nazi-adjacent, plain and simple. White supremacy and Nazism are not mental-health issues, those people are abusers.

In the event that they do have mental health issues, they are entirely unrelated to their White supremacist beliefs. Fuck them. I will take absolutely no excuses for the horrid, racist shit they spread.

EDIT: actually scratch the part about Nazi-adjacent. They ARE Nazis, given that they subscribe entirely to Holocaust denialism and have made this cartoon-villain conception of the Federal Reserve and The Jews, who plot to overthrow Christian and Western values by introducing feminism and the fight against racism in western societies. Not to mention they showed up to terrorize protesters in Ferguson.

Double fuck them.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@Hippodameia
I’ll think about it. Thank you for your input.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@Hippodameia
I’ll try that again. I had not anticipated that what I wrote would be condescending and I appreciate that you pointed this out to me. I’ll think about what I was doing and consider what I need to do.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

That wasn’t my intention, I was more or less repeating what you said, or at least I thought I was, given you were saying they had paranoia. Didn’t know it didn’t qualify as a mental health issue.

Paranoia is not a mental illness. It’s a normal state that the brain can get into. It can be a symptom of some mental illnesses, but that doesn’t make it a mental health issue to experience it.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Kupo

I see… I always thought of it as a mental illness of it’s own, rather than a symptom. Probably because that’s the way it’s usually portrayed in entertainment.

Interesting.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
3 years ago

Full disclosure: my eldest son is diagnosed with psychosis (schizophrenic symptoms), currently unmedicated by his choice. He’s living in supervised, non-clinical housing. Regardless of what else he might or might not do, I believe that he would no more kill anyone than he would bite the back of his head.

Me, I’m diagnosed with chronic depression and currently on two antidepressants. I know exactly what it would feel like if I stopped taking them and I really don’t want to feel like that. I’m so non-violent that I play Civilization with War turned off.

People are justified in fearing mental illness, but not in fearing *people* with mental illnesses. Fear the people who think of people as things, because that’s where all real evil starts (h/t to Terry Pratchett).

CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
3 years ago

Prepare yourselves mentally ill friends. The ass who wrote the book about depression and anxiety only being a product of trauma wrote an article on huffpo and all sorts of anti-med, victim blaming, ableist, woo peddlers are feeling emboldened.

(Seriously, I had a happy childhood and still have a loving, close-knit family. Who of course, fuck up, but aren’t evil. and my depression started in childhood. So seriously, fuck all the, ‘it’s just trauma’ people)

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
3 years ago

paranoia never is specifically mental illness. I don’t know where you heard this before, Diego. it is simply a reaction, sometimes to things which happened and sometimes to things from mental illness. maybe you misunderstood diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia or paranoid personality disorder when you thought paranoia is specifically illness. also, entertainment is not really very good source of correct info, especially since they often say false things about mental illness.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

Brony, thank you.

Clever for a Girl – microprostitute: I think I know what book you mean. Is it the one where the author asks suicidal people a few questions and then they stop feeling suicidal because he’s so brilliant?

CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
3 years ago

Hippodameia – Lost Connections, but the book you mentioned sounds absolutely infuriating.

azne
azne
3 years ago

@CleverforaGirl and Hippodameia – both of those just sound awful.

Along those lines, there’s a celebrity I like who announced some time ago he suddenly quit taking his antipsychotics. He’s from a culture that stigmatizes mental illness and having to take meds or go to therapy for it, and a meltdown hurt him before…It’s his choice, but what frustrated me most was that so many fans were just like “yay, you don’t need them anyway” and stuff…
As a person who relies on meds, it hurts to see people who blanket-hate on meds or victim blame about it.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

I get really torn on the issue of psych meds: on the one hand, there’s this stupid idea that we don’t need them, we can just re-train our brains or eat this amazing-new-thing-that-big-pharma-won’t-tell- you-about…
On the other hand, I’m painfully aware of how govts and health systems can treat people with mental health problems as if we have no agency whatsoever.
Meanwhile, I take my meds, talk to my doctors, and also do what I can to help Mish (for me, that’s mostly yoga and other exercise – ymmv)

Shadowplay
3 years ago

Grrrrrrrrrr 😛

on the one hand, there’s this stupid idea that we don’t need them, we can just re-train our brains or eat this amazing-new-thing-that-big-pharma-won’t-tell- you-about…

You don’t need a cast either, when you break your leg. Just stay really, really still for 6 weeks and you’ll heal just fine.

Yes, some forms of mental illness can be trained around, so they’re still there but less obtrusive into daily life and happiness. If the person is in the right state of mind to do it. Thats where the meds come in. Breathing space to heal and become functional, same as with pain killers.

Know you know this – it’s just one of my pet peeves (This one I call Simon). 😛

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

There was a big meta study here very recently about the effectiveness of antidepressants. For those who wish to read more:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32802-7/fulltext

Executive summary: They work; some better than others.

Left_Wing_Fox
Left_Wing_Fox
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

Hehe, you have no idea how appropriate that image is. I lost my job last year, and found a new position in Vancouver. I’m currently working on the High School AU version of that show.