By David Futrelle
On Gab — the “free speech” social media site that has become something of a haven for the internet’s worst people — some of the regulars have come up with a rather inventive explanation for the Parkland, Florida school shooting yesterday that left 17 dead. It’s all the fault of the Jews.
Never mind that an explicitly fascist group claims the accused shooter, 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz, as a member, and says he participated in their paramilitary training exercises. As some of the best minds on Gab see it, Cruz is actually the puppet of a vast Jewish conspiracy — and probably a Jew himself.
Their evidence? The fact that Cruz is such a well-known Jewish surname.
Wait, what?
While Cruz isn’t probably the first surname one thinks of when one thinks about Jewish surnames, there were some Spanish Jews who adopted the name to hide their Jewishness from the authorities … during the Spanish Inquisition. 500 years ago.
That of course isn’t proof that Cruz himself was Jewish.
Also, he was adopted.
But more than a few on Gab have something of a vested interest in trying to blame yesterday’s horrific carnage on a Jew or the Jews. See if you can figure out what the hidden agenda is as you scroll through these lightly censored comments from a fellow who calls himself DrGasChamber.
A Gabber called stevec, meanwhile, isn’t completely sure there even was a shooting yesterday. But whatever happened, he’s pretty sure Jews are to blame.
One commenter, the not-so-accurately named @NameTheJew, even made a little meme.
And no, there is no evidence that Elliot Rodger — that’s him on the left — was Jewish either.
Needless to say, not everyone on Gab blames the Jews for whatever they think happened in Parkland Florida yesterday. A fellow called Pho Chan, for example, had a rather different take on the Jewish Question.
Lovely.
For more on Nikolas Cruz, a possible incel who has been hailed by incels online as an Elliot Rodger style hero, see my post yesterday.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Can you just stop arguing against points nobody ever made?
@Shadowplay
Glad to hear I helped flip a switch for you. I’m currently developing education software. I’m still in the minority of software developers in my company (only 5% women) but just across the way are our content developers who are majority women. There’s still some techbro culture but at least I’m not afraid someone will doxx me and get me fired for being a feminist like that woman at Nintendo (who didn’t even have any say in the content of the games, no less).
Gonna leave this here.
https://twitter.com/longlive_nixon/status/964215221022838787
Gonna have to disagree here with respect to the neonazi militia (i.e. Cruz probably wasn’t a member). This was found on a particular site called 4chan, KNOWN for intentionally trolling media for the purpose of (far) right rhethoric that “all mainstream media is fake news”. When the media called the leader of the neonazi militia he most likely realized the opportunity and lied for this reason.
To all media: NEVER trust anything on 4chan; the place is full of people who want to embarrass you.
https://agingmillennialengineer.wordpress.com/2018/02/15/fuck-you-i-like-guns-2/
apparently the claims that he was actually affiliated with white supremacists may have been intentional obfuscation by 4-Channers https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672
@Valentin
“because authors sources show that mentally ill people under-represented in cases of violent crime.”
Not actually true. Once you control the causes of violent behavior, (such as substance abuse), mentally ill people are about *as likely* to commit violent crimes as people without mental illness.
“so it is not mean that mental ill people don’t feel angry – but this anger is same amount as for people without mental illness. maybe less.”
Some mental illnesses literally manifest as extreme anger.
@WWTH
“Can you just stop arguing against points nobody ever made?”
I started off this thread making this argument that was aimed at no-one in particular, and I’ll finish up with it being aimed at no-one in particular. Eventually someone will notice that I’m not arguing that mental illness causes violence.
Why does the argument matter?
A. Because we have to stay within facts if we want to be taken seriously.
B. Because unlike countries with universal healthcare, mental healthcare is much more under assault in the US. And mentally ill people are more likely to respond with things that *do* increase violent behavior when they lack access to care, such as taking drugs. This issue is far too complex for black and white statements.
So mental illness is therefore as relevant to violent crime as whether you have allergies. So why bring it up?
mrex,
Can you state clearly and concisely what the hell you are arguing?
Because if everyone is misinterpreting you, the problem is YOU. Everyone here has basic reading comprehension skills.
From what I can gather, you think we shouldn’t say we know for sure he doesn’t have a diagnosis. But I haven’t actually seen anyone make that argument. So there’s not really any reason to fight against a point no one is making. If someone has made that point, link to the comment so we can see what you’re talking about.
Your other point seems to be that we should address mental illness. But it has been addressed. A lot. This is a big part of why it’s in the comments policy to no internet diagnose or blame mental illness for crime. Because we’ve had this argument so many times. That’s why I said it’s a PRATT at this point.
If I’m misreading you, feel free to clearly and simply state your argument. If not and you’re hoping to make yourself the exception to the comments policy or if you’re attributing arguments to commenters that they haven’t made, knock it the fuck off. Or I’m going to email David even though I really don’t want to bug him with stuff while he’s still not up to full health. As the comment policy says, if you disagree with the policy, contact him. Don’t argue it here.
Alan,
The way I see it, every time a mass shooting occurs, the topic of mental illness inevitably crops up for one very good reason: to deflect the attention away from sensible gun control.
Starting with one connection every one of the recent mass shootings has: use of the AR-15.
Ban these fuckers. Period.
“So mental illness is therefore as relevant to violent crime as whether you have allergies. So why bring it up?”
Because, as an allergy sufferer, if our collective asshole brought up allergies as the cause to violence, and proposed taking allergy sufferer’s rights (and healthcare), I would bring it up. And also point out that “allergy sufferers are nonviolent” as bullshit, because clearly there is no shortage of violent allergy sufferers.
Although maybe people with allergies are more likely to be violent, I don’t know.
problems with this
1. simply I say one thing, you say another
2. only using one source
3. you say 22% you calculated, 25% of population is mentally ill. 22% is less than 25%
4. mentally ill people still not majority of violent crimes and you are ignoring my point to fix on something very small.
you originally decided with scanty information that this person is mentally ill. (and no, people who knew him is not correct assessment of mental illness, because those people live in this world which is against mentally ill people and also they are who was ‘terrorised’ by him, they can say this to make him look bad. how you know they aren’t same people who make arguement that it is not guns which kill but mental illness?)
and my point is, we should not say this, because it makes stereotypes strong and harms mentally ill people generally. you admit yourself, it is not black and white. correct. and your counter arguement to mine is basically ‘but also because some mentally ill people are violent, so we should talk about this’.
well, no.
yes there is time and place for this, but this not that time or place. not when President of United States I throwing his mentally ill citizens under a bus to protect his guns and gun-lover citizens.
look, this whole thread now about mental illness, republicans and gun-lovers will be so happy to see it.
but much better is what I see on twitter, students from this school who will not allow subject to change away from real problem of guns. they demand justice. they ignore these distraction arguements. they are brave.
this at least 5th time i explained this, my arguement, because you move around it or away from it or fix on one small thing.
simply, it is wrong that mentally ill people being thrown under a bus to protect guns of people who don’t care about their fellow citizens and such arguments and assumption as your original one support this, even if by accident. so we should avoid to make diagnosis of mental illness.
why we still talk about this and not about that this guy loves donald trump? or is probably white supremacist? or went on NRA funded school trip to fire guns? or bought his gun legally? there is same amount of evidence for those things – actually more – than there is for if he is mentally ill.
enough of this distractions, you are doing job of NRA for them ?
here some more links, my internet is really slow so it took me long time to gather theses so I will not look any more:
http://time.com/4358295/violent-crimes-mental-illness/
https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150723-the-myth-of-mental-illness-and-violence
sorry for double post, I just want to say, yes I agree with you and this is what i said already at least 2 times.
@WWTH
People like Nanny Oggs Bosom were already discussing the topic of “entitled brat, not mentally ill” before I chimed in. But it was also several people other than them dancing around it, and it was also being said on twitter, and in the media, and etc etc.
I tl;dr my point in my first post; mental illness doesn’t give you a bad character, mental health doesn’t give you a good one. And vice-versa.
Valentin,
I know, dear heart…and I agree with you completely. As I do with this:
mrex,
Than the appropriate response to Nanny Oggs Bosom would be something along the lines of “we don’t know for sure that he didn’t have a diagnosis, but he’s definitely an entitled brat”
Instead, you did this
You internet diagnosed him. Not even with a specific disorder. Just declared he is mentally ill.
That is what got pushback and that is what is a violation of the comment policy. I’d suggest apologizing and dropping it.
And no one is saying being mentally ill makes a person good, so I’m not sure why you keep repeating that. Or why you keep using shit you saw on twitter or other sites to argue with us. That didn’t go over well when you accused us of being classist for calling Trump voters racist because you saw a Democrat somewhere else being classist. It’s not going over well now. It won’t go over well at any point in the future. So, why do it?
I had a big angry post about this ridiculous mental illness argument. Had a nice flow. Brought up the conflation between mental health and mental illness; discussed how his recent traumas were no excuse. Brought up the link between these shootings, domestic violence, and toxic masculinity. Bared my teeth a bit more than usual.
Deleted it. I know the replies would only be angry defensiveness and accusation, and I don’t really have the go-juice to deal with that. I have zero desire to defend myself, and don’t feel like handing out the weapons I’d have to defend against.
If you’d like to see the reason that I don’t much comment anymore, well, look upthread. There are so many things to talk about in this. I’d love to talk about with this. The kids are scheduling a nation-wide walk-out, and that’s really exciting – shows how engaged they are. Would love to talk about how the right’s guns aren’t gonna be taken away by Obama – they’re gonna be taken away by their own children.
Stream-of-consciousness here, but I’m sort of considering deleting this too and just writing the one line, “this is why I don’t much comment anymore,” but that’d be vague and passive aggressive. Is there a point to posting this at all? Guess we’ll see.
No hate to any of you <3 Just, you know. Let's change course.
I adore you, Scild.
That is all.
?
If the media, politicians, and some people here, must talk about mental health issues then how about the mental health of the kids who saw their friends murdered, or every other kid who must now have at the back of their mind what might happen at school today. And whether their medical cover is going to pay for any counselling they may need.
Please don’t go, Scild.
I don’t know if it’s just me. But I’d like to see the banhammer, or at least a stint in moderation for mrex.
She may not be an MRA troll, but I do think she’s taking advantage of David’s absence to shit stir. The normal policy we have here of not letting problematic things stand uncontested is good and something we should keep. But it can also be used against us and I think that’s what’s happening. Someone doesn’t have to be intentionally trolling to be toxic. I hope I’m not one of the toxic ones, but as I said earlier in the thread, I’ve seen what happens when people let things go in the interest of keeping the peace and it’s major blow ups that lead to mass exodus instead of minor blow ups. In my experience, bottling things up is never good. On the one hand, I’m tired of playing bad cop. On the other hand, I fear what will happen if I don’t. So I don’t really know what I can do to make things better. Suggestions would be welcome though.
Anyway. On to talk about guns. I saw something appalling on CNN a couple of days ago. They were interviewing Florida governor Rick Scott. Wolf Blitzer showed him a video of the mother of a victim making an impassioned plea for gun control. Scott was saying it’s his goal for this to never happen again. Blitzer tried to get him to state outright that he would push for a new gun law of some sort. Even if it’s just to increase the age one can buy an AR-15 from 18 to 21. He wouldn’t even commit to that. Just said everything is on the table. Which is of course, code for nothing will be done. It was disgusting. I fear that literally every one in the country will have to lose a loved one to a mass shooting for the political will for gun control to be there.
I do think it’s time to stop coddling voters who say they’re for common sense gun control and then turn around and vote for anti gun control candidates though. I think it’s time to make it clear that a vote for an NRA shill is a vote for more dead children. Because that is just the truth.
@Alan
At least one study found that cognitive behavioral therapy significantly reduces symptoms of PTSD and depression in kids exposed to violence in school. I hope someone with the power to do so is organizing something for these kids.
@WWTH
Thank you for your efforts.
I greatly admire your patience and kindness Scild.
@WWTH
I already apologized for the internet diagnosis and dropped it. But I’ll do it again. I’m sorry. And it’s dropped.
Why is it that everyone else can rant about shit that they see on twitter, but when I do it, I must be picking some fight with someone specific here? But whatever. Obviously you either get my point by now, or you don’t.
Let’s all drop it.
A woman in Michigan just made a very good point to her local congressman.
She mailed him a campaign contribution – a cheque to the amount of “thoughts and prayers.”
Her cover letter is quite pleasantly frostily venomous, too.
Edit to add:
@Scild 🙁 I like your posts, a lot.