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Incels hail “our savior St. Nikolas Cruz” for Valentine’s Day school shooting [UPDATED]

Photos from the alleged shooter’s now-deleted Instagram page

By David Futrelle

The Internet’s incels long ago adopted Isla Vista killer Elliot Rodger, the maladjusted twentysomething who murdered six in cold blood as a kind of revenge for his “involuntary celibacy,” as a patron saint of sorts.

Now they are doing the same with Nikolas Cruz, the Florida teen who allegedly murdered 17 students and teachers at a high school in Parkland, Florida today. On Incels.Me — the web forum that Reddit’s incel population migrated to after the admins at Reddit shut their forum there down — one enthusiastic commenter got the discussion started by posting a thread titled “A hERo rises on this day of incel exclusion (Florida Valentines Day School Shooting).”  (All links in this post go to archived pages.)

The capitalized “ER” in “hERo” is of course a reference to Elliot Rodger.

In the thread, assorted incels cheered as the details of the shooting came out over the course of the day, declaring their “immense respect” for their new “HERO.” And some wondered — with more than a little justification — if the shooter wasn’t one of their fellow commenters on Incels.Me.

“Respect to him if he kills over 60 normies,” a commenter called Towncel declared. “Hopefully he isn’t just using 2 pistols and actually has an assault rifle,” he added in a followup comment.

Vman, a prolific commenter with over 2500 posts on the site was already set to declare Cruz his new idol.

holy shit its on valentines day! what a fucking hero! we have a new model! PLZ BE UGLY PLZ BE UGLY. WE NEED INCEL AWARNESS

Spicycurry was a little more reserved. “Watch the news blame incels rather than the femoids who mock us and oppress us,” he groused.

lonelyistheworld  has a rather different fear. “The media will probably try to cover up the fact that he’s an Incel,” he complained. “The elites know that there’s a huge problem with lonely men in the west.”

Naturally, many of the commenters hoped that most of the victims would be “femoids.”

“Hope his roastie kill count is high,” Reddit_is_for_cucks  opined

Roastie contribute nothing to the society anyway, sll they do is shopping and suck chads dick and get free stuff from cucks

Incel_Dikshit concurred, expressing his hope that the shooter had “snagged some degenerate roasties and depsrate beta orbiters with him.”

“Roastie” is a favorite incel slur for (cis) women, whose labia are thought (by incels) to resemble roast beef.

Many of the commenters took great pleasure in the fact that this murder spree took place on Valentine’s Day. “LIFEFUEL,” declared one. “The best Valentines Day in history buddy boyos.”

When several commenters expressed their uneasiness at this open celebration of mass murder, they were denounced as “Jooz.” Indeed, one prolific commenter called knajjd went so far as to justify the murder of young girls because, in his view

female children can, at best, be considered a timebomb. even if you believe that children are totes innocent creatures, etc. etc. that argument makes no sense since they’ll inevitably develop into roasties.

Comments like these continue for page after page; all of those quoted so far come from the first three pages of what is currently a ten page thread.

It didn’t take long for some of the commenters to wonder if the shooter hadn’t frequented Incels.Me. Several mentioned a recent Incels.Me thread in which a lurker posted an elaborately detailed threat to shoot up his former high school and other schools in the area (including an elementary school north of his high school) on February 12 before escaping by blending in with the those fleeing from the scene.

More than a few of the details match up with what happened today. The alleged shooter today targeted his former high school. There is a middle school northwest of the high school, though it is more west than north. Some reports suggest the shooter escaped the school by blending in with fleeing students. The date of the threatened rampage was only two days different from the actual assault. The gun he reportedly used is similar to, though not the same model as, the one mentioned in the post.

You can see the screenshotted post here.

It’s certainly possible that the threat posted to Incels.Me was nothing more than a fantasy, and that the similarities between it and the events that unfolded today mere coincidence.

EDITED TO ADD: But even if Cruz wasn’t the anonymous commenter on Incels.Me, he may well have thought of himself as an iucel. The Daily Beast reports that someone calling himself Nikolas Cruz left a comment on a YouTube video a year ago declaring that ““Elliot rodger will not be forgotten.” (Meanwhile, a self-described paramilitary white supremacist group in Florida is telling The Beast that Cruz had trained with them.)

Was Cruz an incel, a white supremacist — or both, or neither? The clues to his motivation are certainly unsettling. As is the existence of a forum overloaded with so many bitter, furious young men who look upon mass murder as a kind of righteous retribution for the refusal of “roasties” to offer them sex.

NOTE TO REGULAR READERS: I was planning on returning to regular posts here shortly. I’m sorry it had to be with a story on this horrendous incident.

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Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

Joaquin, I was neither agreeing with you nor supporting your position.

The one time in my life to date that I’ve had a gun pointed at me, having a loaded handgun on my person would have been, at best, as helpful as having no gun at all. Not having a loaded firearm in my home makes me safer, statistically, than having one.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

I don’t know how old your son is, but asuming your use of the word “school” i supose that he is underage, which means his violent buddies cannot legally own a gun, so it’s a moot point.

Hardly. It didn’t stop the 15 year old earlier this year in Kentucky. Didn’t stop the 14 year old (14, jesus christ) in S. Carolina in 2016.
Also, what Shadowplay said.

How can you feel safe and being unarmed at the same time?

I literally just told you in my previous comment.

American values are superior to any other values, too bad many don’t appreciate this.

Oh god please not the light on the hill crap. Surely USians have enough to deal with right now?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I feel much safer having a dog in the house who barks whenever anyone comes up to the house than I would with a gun. I’ve never to my knowledge lived in a home that contained a gun before. I’ve never been the victim of violence in all my 37 years on the planet so far. The notion that you need a gun to feel safe is something that has always struck me as just bizarre.

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

People are so concerned with protecting their guns they forget who is looking up from the end of the barrel . Someone’s Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Child , partner, friend etc
Is it really worth the price to not as least regulate more?

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Another way to have a very safe home: apartment; not ground floor; good sturdy door with peephole and maybe chain; sturdy lock; and no abusive partner. Not opening the door for strangers is an obvious thing as well, and being careful when departing or arriving that the hallway is empty so no-one barges in, or forces you to let them in from the outside.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Surely if preventing law-abiding citizens from obtaining firearms only makes them easier targets for gun-toting criminals, we would see an INCREASE in mass shootings in countries after they imposed gun control, not a decrease? Surely places like Canada and the UK and Australia should have higher rates of mass shootings and gun crime than the USA under this premise. After all, the citizens are sitting ducks, right?

Lucrece
Lucrece
2 years ago

I’ve been reading the back and forth about gun ownership, the US of A, and Australia’s gun control experiment with great interest and a certain amount of smug satisfaction seeing as I am Australian. But then I thought, what are the damn figures? And I couldn’t find a single, simple representation of the numbers, so I did it myself. For those interested, here are the two tables I put together that, I hope, allow for an easy look at the relative death rates by firearm for Australia and the USA for 2016 (the most recent year available – 2017 data won’t be available for a few months). In the process of putting this data together, I couldn’t help noticing a much more troubling issue, which I think should be front and centre of everyone’s consciousness when thinking about gun control – the extremely high rates of male suicides from firearms. It is 1.44 in Australia and a whopping 12.35 in the USA (that’s rate per 100,000 of the male population – sorry, the data is only presented in binary terms for gender, urgh, hope that changes soon.) That compares with rates of 0.76 and 7.1 respectively for the total population. Men are killing themselves in disproportionately high numbers by firearm. How many lives could be saved if guns were just a LITTLE BIT restricted? This is the true men’s rights battle front. I don’t need to tell readers of this blog exactly how much MRAs do to combat this dire situation.

I’ve tried to embed but I’m not quite sure if the pictures will come out properly in this blog, so here’s a link to my blog “Site Title” (um, yeah, I haven’t named it since I don’t really post anything on it, until now) in case the embedding doesn’t work:

2016 ABS and CDC Data on firearm deaths
comment image?w=656
comment image?w=656

***NOTES***

Before anyone decides to jump up and down on my figures, know that I am not a statistician. I am not trained in statistics beyond senior secondary school level. I completely accept I may have flubbed something, but before piling on you should look at the actual sources yourself – I have provided simple links for access in my blog post – since I spent several careful hours collecting and presenting this data. I have done my best to put forth just the numbers and not format or present it in a way that skews perceptions.

There are myriad issues involved in any comparison between the USA and Australia. Our populations alone are vastly different in size and composition. We share some values, legal and moral, but our present societies arose from very different beginnings. Australia has no constitutional right to bear arms, no enshrined freedom of speech, and no federal bill of rights. These are things that, for many if not most Americans, would make us seem like a truly backwards and frightening society. But we feel free and safe. Freedom of speech isn’t enshrined, but it is hotly and passionately defended when we feel it is impinged on. When there are shootings, they mostly involve crime groups and very rarely is anyone caught in the crossfire.

We have had massacres and bombings, true, but nothing on the scale of a mass shooting since the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 when 35 people died (which, at the time, was the SINGLE DEADLIEST mass shooting anywhere in the world, but has since been more than eclipsed in magnitude by several events in the USA). We felt unsafe when that happened. When John Howard brokered the National Firearms Agreement, which restricted the sales of assault and semi-automatic firearms (note these are not BANS, they are restrictions whereby potential owners must demonstrate they have a good reason for owning such a weapon, and home defense is not one of the permissible reasons), we all breathed a HUGE sigh of relief. Well, almost all of us. Howard was lucky that it was early in his first term of government when he brought in those changes, because he did it in the teeth of strong opposition from powerful lobby groups AND his coalition partners, the Nationals. And he was a conservative politician – he’d be equivalent in political stance to Ronald Reagan. Yet he helped us feel safer by controlling gun sales. We could have gone the other way – people were certainly touting the “Good Guys With Guns” line and wanting to enable more gun ownership. But we didn’t go down that road. And while the interpretation of the figures regarding changes in rates of gun deaths from 1996 to now is problematic, there is no denying that the rates are lower than they were.* Is that due to the NFA? Problematic. Have we avoided further mass shootings? It seems so, for now.

Do I, personally, breathe easier knowing that my nieces and nephew are not at all likely to encounter a mass shooter in their schools? Fucking oath, yes!

So, make of these figures and my comments what you will…

(*I tried to get direct comparison stats from the 1996 reports, but I couldn’t get anything the crossmatch. There are baseline figures available all over the web though, if you’re interested and have a spare six hours try googling it.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ lucrece

Wow, that’s a lot of work you’ve put in there; cheers.

Men are killing themselves in disproportionately high numbers by firearm

That also seems to be the case here. The last figures I could find for gun deaths in the UK (2016) indicated there were 51 of them. 19 were homicides, 2 were ‘accidents’, and the rest were suicides. That seemed to be mainly depressed farmers; but they were all men.

The idea that guns for suicide are almost exclusively a male issue arose in a notorious murder case here; R -v- Jeremy Bamber. He was accused of killing his family. His defence was that his sister did it as part of a murder/suicide. But the Crown’s case was that women don’t use guns to kill themselves, so it must have been him.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

And the method of guns is thought to be a big part of why women attempt suicide more often but men are more likely to complete a suicide. People like to argue that those who are determined to commit suicide will find a way. To an extent that’s true, but it’s common for those who attempt suicide to later have a change of heart later on. So, keeping guns out of your home is the best way to prevent a suicide in your household.

Thanks, Lucrece!

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

Con the topic of suicide:

Yes i have read those statistics and i consider them valid.

Of course that may be due that a fireams is the most quick and painless method of suicide, i mean the other alternativas seem way too gruesome, which may discourage many.

Back to Australia:

Yes, homicide rate went from 1.6 to 1.0

Am i supposed to be impressed?

Sacrificing your freedoms for a whooping 0.6 ???

Brb having to protect your home with a stick…

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

I don’t understand

If you hate American values so much why don’t move to Canadá? Or Australia? Or Western Europe?

But no, you have to ruin everything that makes América Special.

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

Unless there’s some unwritten law somewhere, enfoced by angels of pure fire, that “his violent buddies” can only use a gun legally owned by themselves.

When in practice, most of the highschool shooters have been either ex-highschoolers or, more importantly in this case, using Mommy or Daddy’s gun

Aaaaannnd we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen!!!

Banning guns won’t summon a Legión of Angels that will take them away, nor they will prevent the wrong people from having access to them.

Glad you understand!

Hexum7
Hexum7
2 years ago
Reply to  Lucrece

Men have the right to commit suicide. Men have the right not to. I can’t see how this could be spun to be a men’s rights issue at all.

It isn’t even close to being a men’s issue- what are MRAs to do with a male’s tendency to use violence to solve problems? Shame them for acting like men? I’d really like to know

Further, it only takes one gun, of any kind to kill oneself so unless you are advocating banning all guns, there isn’t anything MRAs can do is whine about this issue, which is all they do about it as far as I can see.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Men have the right to commit suicide. Men have the right not to. I can’t see how this could be spun to be a men’s rights issue at all.

What are you trying to say here? Suicide prevention is wrong? Many people don’t get the help they need with their mental health until after a failed suicide attempt, so yeah, discouraging people from having an easy way to commit suicide hanging out around the house is a good thing. Since seeking mental health treatment is so stigmatized for men, it absolutely is a men’s issue.

It isn’t even close to being a men’s issue- what are MRAs to do with a male’s tendency to use violence to solve problems? Shame them for acting like men? I’d really like to know

Are you saying men are just violent and there’s nothing that we as a culture can do about that? And since violence is wrong, shaming violence is actually something we should do. We should also teach boys growing up to not us violence in the first place.

Further, it only takes one gun, of any kind to kill oneself so unless you are advocating banning all guns, there isn’t anything MRAs can do is whine about this issue, which is all they do about it as far as I can see.

We all know MRAs don’t do anything. The point is, if they did actually care about men’s issues or activism, they would be opposing gun culture and violence instead of glorifying it. And yes, we can reduce access to guns and reduce suicide without banning all guns period. No one is saying gun control will solve all murder and suicide forever. We’re talking harm reduction here and anything we can do is good. I’m so fucking sick of this bullshit about how unless gun control will bring the firearm death rates to zero there’s no point. Just stop.

Lucrece
Lucrece
2 years ago
Reply to  Hexum7

@Hexum

It isn’t even close to being a men’s issue- what are MRAs to do with a male’s tendency to use violence to solve problems? Shame them for acting like men? I’d really like to know

“Acting like men”? Sounds like the “boys will be boys” excuse we hear for any kind of poor or anti-social behaviour from males of all ages. I don’t have time to do a literature review on this one, but are there ANY scientifically valid, peer-reviewed studies that demonstrate violence is the default male behaviour, absent any social influences, such as a pervasive culture of toxic masculinity? Changing the culture of violence is very definitely the province of anyone interested in men’s rights because a culture of violence harms men at least as much as it harms women.

As for “having the right” to die by suicide, well, okay. I guess we all have the right to die when and how we choose. In my home state of Victoria we recently passed a landmark voluntary assisted dying bill, which grants terminally ill patients access to painless, medically-assisted death, under VERY strict conditions. But mental illness on its own isn’t an applicable condition under that law, and I tend to agree with that. My concern is that we ALSO all have the right to effective treatment for any mental or physical illnesses we may suffer either temporarily or chronically. Everyone – regardless of gender – has the right to effective medical care. Would we think that a person with a broken arm is making an appropriate decision in killing themself? I doubt it. What’s different about a broken brain? It can usually be healed with skilled medical intervention and appropriate social supports. For people like me, whose brains are chronically ‘broken’, ongoing treatment and support is needed, but I can tell you now there have been times when I was so distressed, if a gun had been nearby, I would have been much more of a danger to myself. That’s not to say I didn’t consider alternatives – I did, but they were more difficult to accomplish in the moment and, as such, I had a chance to get help.*

Male suicides are higher across the board, regardless of method, but gun-related suicides are (iirc) the largest number of all categories of self-inflicted harm for men. With reduced access to guns, how many men would be successful in their attempts? I believe it would be many fewer, but again, see previous comment on not having time to search the literature (I’m trying to complete a Masters degree and I’ve used up all my “free” time for the week on those tables! Totes worth it though).

In summary, male suicide is definitely a men’s rights issue. We can’t just brush it off by thinking “oh well, that’s just how men behave – violently”. That’s not fair; that’s not equitable. Let men exist without the pressures placed on them by a culture that says “real men don’t cry”; “real men don’t talk about their problems”, and let’s see what happens, eh? And along the way we may just find that there are fewer assaults by men against other men, against women, and against all other genders. Sounds nice to me.

*if this discussion has brought up any difficult feelings for you, call Lifeline (if in Australia) on 13 11 14
I’m not sure of the best numbers in other countries – a little help would be grand!

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

WWTH

Maybe it’s because many people think that the cost FAR outweights the benefits.

Now i understand why you think like that.

To someone that did not experienced violence in 37 years, all this talk about armed defense will sound preposterous.

And nice try on the topic of suicide and guns.

You talk as if the gun will mind control you and induce you to suicide.

Maybe we should put the blame on toxic masculinity, hatred and other problems instead of an inanimated object.

Just a thought

Lucrece
Lucrece
2 years ago

@Alan and WWTH

You’re most welcome. I enjoyed the exercise and it made for a good brain-break from Guttman charts, inclusive literacy and numeracy, and the influence of standardised testing on pedagogical interventions.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Joquin just keeps getting more wrong

Of course that may be due that a fireams is the most quick and painless method of suicide,

Being shot is not painless and not always quick. It’s also extremely unpleasant for the person who finds the gunshot suicide. My aunt’s husband shot himself in the head. So I would know.

Yes, homicide rate went from 1.6 to 1.0

Am i supposed to be impressed?

Sacrificing your freedoms for a whooping 0.6 ???

1.8. Not 1.6. In 20 years that’s by my math about 193 people. You don’t think the lives of 193 people matter? And how were freedoms sacrificed? The people of Australia as far as I can tell seem glad they don’t have a mass shooting problem. The country is still a Democracy and it’s not a crime filled hellscape. How exactly are their freedoms sacrificed?

But no, you have to ruin everything that makes América Special.

What does this even mean? What is special about the US? Don’t give me platitudes or buzzwords. Give me specific and quantifiable things. What is the US number one at? What rights do we have that are unique? I’m curious.

Lucrece
Lucrece
2 years ago

@Joaquin

Am i supposed to be impressed?

Meh, don’t care really. I said the interpretation was problematic, and so is the comparison.

Sacrificing your freedoms for a whooping 0.6 ???

Dunno where that number comes from, but from my reading the homicide rate was closer to 2.5 in 1996, so it’s entirely possible you’ve pulled it out of your butt.

Anyway, as I said, I feel totally free and, importantly, safe. Why don’t you come over here and find out what it’s like for yourself? What have you got to lose? I promise we won’t fingerprint you at the border (like the US) or demand to know your social media account details prior to granting you a visa (like the US) and you can stand on any street corner and speak your mind (like the US). In Australia, I could stand on the steps of parliament and call the prime minister an orgulous douche canoe and I’d get at least one bystander applauding me, quite a few giggling, some telling me to fuck off, and the majority ignoring me. Could I do the same in the US about Trump and not risk physical harm from the MAGAs? Possibly in some areas, but I wouldn’t be game to try. Whereas in Australia, I could mouth off about the PM anywhere and feel totally safe. That’s freedom. You should try it.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Glad you understand!

Unfortunately, you don’t. Nor will you. Your fear won’t let you.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

@Joaquin,

I notice that you ignore all of the strong arguments against your position, and instead choose to attack only the weak ones. If you’re at all interested in getting to the truth of things, you have to stop that.

You said that gun control wouldn’t work, because criminals who want guns will get them anyways. I pointed out that most homicides aren’t premeditated in that way.

You said that gun control would be ineffective, because they could get guns from neighbouring areas/countries with fewer regulations. I showed that, no, in general that doesn’t happen, and that gun control works even when neighbouring regions are unregulated.

You said that homicide rates didn’t change or went up after Australia enacted gun controls. The talented Lucrece demonstrated very solidly that no, they did not.

You then said that the change of 0.6 wasn’t worth the trade, while not acknowledging that you were wrong. The skilled Weirwoodtreehugger pointed out that you were wrong and that a small number in a statistical analysis can still be a meaningful number of lives. Lucrece sharply added that even that number might be conservative.

And now you have abandoned all of these positions and have taken up new ones: if it’s so good, why don’t you move to Canada or elsewhere? As if the answer weren’t apparent. Moving is expensive. Finding jobs is hard. Immigration is often unsuccessful. Leaving behind family and friends is painful.

You know all that. “Why don’t you move” is the most painfully trite non-challenge.

You have no positions left. Read the wind, my duck! Every position you’ve held in this conversation has been shredded, and your only reply is to find new positions instead of defending the ones you have. Because they are indefensible.

You deserve better from yourself.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ joaquin

that may be due that a fireams is the most quick and painless method of suicide,

The irony here is I’m quite interested in guns, also self defence, so I read papers like this.

https://news.yale.edu/2016/10/27/gunshot-wound-head-not-death-sentence

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

on the relation of guns and suicide, and the fact that men more often kill themselves in their suicides attempts due to guns. It’s been talked about quite a bit, and as far as I understand the consensus position it’s that it really is related to gun availability and patriarchal gender roles. MRAs talk about the male suicide rate, but when it comes to solutions the only things they have to say are virtually indistinguishable from the threats of incels – it happens because women are terrible. Feminists are far more realistic about it, and offer actual solutions.

I’m far from an expert on it though and don’t have the data to hand. So I am listening. And thank you to all for the conversation, this one is very good!

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Something more to consider regarding guns and suicide and comparative suicide rates (you’ll have to dig out the figures for yourselves, I’m baking) :

Women veterans successfully commit suicide at rates 12 times those of civilian women, and are virtually at par with male veteran suicide rates. Most woman veterans own guns. Most woman veteran suicides are by gun.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ shadowplay

Wow, I never knew that (although I’ll probably later pretend I did)

But that’s really fascinating, thank you.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Pies are in.

It’s far worse in the US than here in the UK, for obvious reasons, but the same pattern is there. (One of the less pleasant tasks in the regiment for officers is keeping track of suicides among our discharges. 🙁 )

Young veterans especially are at risk – the under 29 age group (males 32 per 100k, females 29 per 100k compared to 8 and 3 per 100k for civs) . The suicide risk rockets once the soldier is discharged – rates are roughly at par with civilians for active duty male personnel, slightly above civilian for active duty female personnel due to the more final methods chosen.

Sorry for multiple edits.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

I hope this link works because you have to see this. One of the Parkland kids eviserating the NRA advert.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1875672706064573&id=1691667177798461

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

The idea that someone would be incapable of feeling safe without possessing a firearm is both disturbing and saddening.

Explains quite a few Facebook comments I’ve seen, though.

Alan Robertshaw, could you confirm or debunk that paracetamol suicides have decreased in number since the packaging was changed?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ Robert

could you confirm or debunk that paracetamol suicides have decreased in number since the packaging was changed?

I can’t; but I bet these people can.

http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

This decrease represented a 43% reduction or an estimated 765 fewer deaths over the 11¼ years after the legislation

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Lucrece,

Fantastic job with the figures; thank you for the efforts!

I’m kind of done with this. If Joaquin is trolling, it’s a revolting choice of topic to play games with. If they’re sincere, they’re not engaging in good faith, and certainly not taking anyone’s points seriously, with the constant goalpost shifting. I mean:

J: They’re minors therefore they can’t get guns therefore your point is moot

Us: Actually minors can get guns

J: Aha! See, gun laws don’t work! I win!

@Hexum, don’t be flippant about male suicide here (or any suicide). It’s not an MRA issue because they don’t care, but it’s definitely a men’s issue and many of us care about it a lot.

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

Scilfreja:

MRAs talk about the male suicide rate, but when it comes to solutions the only things they have to say are virtually indistinguishable from the threats of incels – it happens because women are terrible. Feminists are far more realistic about it, and offer actual solutions.

Finally something we can agree!

I know, moving IS expensive, otherwise i would have done it AGES ago, i’m not discussing that.

My point is, the “West” are pretty much consistent in their policies.

The USA is the only Western country that allows semi-decent gun rights (that National Firearms Act of 1934 is a complete abomination, though).

Are there any other developed contries that can offer the same?

WWTH:

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

With Australia’s population steadily increasing, the nation’s homicide incident rate has fallen even more than the number of homicides — from 1.6 per 100,000 in 1995-96 to 1 per 100,000 in 2013-2014, according to a government report on crime trends. That was the lowest homicide incident rate at the time in 25 years, as we mentioned earlier.

I got my numbers from this site, i may have misread the info, i can agree on that.

Alan:

That was a low blow, you know i cannot argue with a victim (not without feeling like a POS). I remind you that gun control has a strong lobby too, at least worldwide.

Back to gun-control:

Think of this: if you cannot prevent drugs or people from entering the country how are you going to prevent the creation of a black market of guns?

How are you going to locate the hundreds of MILLIONS of guns in the USA?

If you have ANY idea, no matter how may it sound, please feel free of sharing it.

Mish:

It’s not like i’m not taking your point seriously or acting on bad faith, but, like i pointed out in my firsts posts, i have a bias on the matter.

I don’t live in a violence free society, for one thing, and no matter how many arguments you may present, the idea of feeling safe by disarming myself seems EXTREMELY counter-intuitive.

I already shared my experience of facing a gun.

Being armed would have changed anything? not sure, but i still feel angry because all i had to protect myself was a damn Swiss Army Knife. Somehow i forgot to tell the other dude that carry a gun without permit was a crime, silly me!

Just one more thing:

Last time i checked a Troll was someone who provokes or offends on PURPOSE.

If anything i feel like i am the one being trolled, i you feel offended by my ideas, consider that i’m not the one trying to stripe you of your constitutional rights!

Good night!

frank travellin
frank travellin
2 years ago
Reply to  Lucrece

sorry. I should have remembered that my sarcasm ( concerning what MRAs should do about certain male behavior).

I agree with you that that can be a problem for men.

But…. suicide is not a male issue in any case. More women attempt suicide than men. If anything, that makes it a woman’s issue. Not that it’s a competition, but it’s a people problem, not a gendered issue. MRAs never seem to mention that stat about women, somehow.

If men are just better at killing things, including themselves, we have a problem. One that could easily be allieved with him gun controls in place

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@joaquin,

So, I present to you a litany of things you were wrong about, and your reply is “see, I’m right”?

I’m going to try to be gentle here, but what I have to say is sort of harsh. I apologize.

You aren’t motivated by facts, you’re motivated by fear. By your own admission. Fear compels you to arm yourself, fear compels you to get angry about anyone who suggests guns should be controlled. Fear makes you think that the death of schoolchildren in horrible shootings is an acceptable loss in order to quell your anxieties. You’re afraid.

And you have good reasons to have that fear – in the place you live. In the United States, reasons for owning a gun are different, and generally they’re the source of problems. They’re far from the solutions to those problems.

You have every right to be afraid – like you said, you live in a society with a lot of violence in it. And that’s awful, you don’t deserve that. But that’s not the situation that the United States is in. The violence in the United States isn’t systemic gang warfare or cartels or things like that. It’s normal everyday conflict, barfights and brawls and domestic violence, just where many people involved have a fucking gun. The vast majority of these people wouldn’t go get a gun if they weren’t so easy to buy. And we know that, because in other societies with the same traits, but with gun controls, they don’t buy them.

The facts are in, and in the broadest strokes of the brush, they paint clearly. Gun control laws work in reducing homicide and suicide deaths. Gun control does not significantly impact freedom. Diffusion of guns across borders is not generally significant enough to reduce the success of gun control.

(And regarding your factcheck article, it supports by way of correlation the position that gun control is an effective tactic in reducing homicides. Did you read it? The fact that a scientific study doesn’t find conclusive evidence doesn’t mean it finds no evidence.)

I’m really sorry you live in a place where guns are more prevalent, and violence more systemic. You don’t deserve that. No one does. But don’t begrudge the United States solutions for reducing its own violence because you can’t imagine it working where you live. Your anxieties are clouding your vision on this one.

May your fears leave the harbour in your heart and never return. I hope you stay safe.

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

You aren’t motivated by facts, you’re motivated by fear. By your own admission. Fear compels you to arm yourself, fear compels you to get angry about anyone who suggests guns should be controlled. Fear makes you think that the death of schoolchildren in horrible shootings is an acceptable loss in order to quell your anxieties. You’re afraid.

Eeeemmmm and what motivates the people who want gun control?

The death of schoolchildren IS a tragedy, but car accidents and diseases kill many more, we could also focus on that, or Mental Care, i don’t know.

And i still don’t have an answer regarding the effectiveness of a gun ban or some other measure, the failure of the War on Drug does not make me very optimist.

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

Laughter at Bigots:

It is the same guy.

Good memory/eye.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@PeeVee

Honest question (and much respect about it) – how the fuck do you remember them all? They blur together for me into a boring sameness.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

Alan Robertshaw, thank you; that is very much appreciated.

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

Shadowplay,

Well, this one was particularly easy, as Laughter linked it, and the quilted avis matched, lol. (Even though he used two different emails to generate 2 different quilt avis.)

But (unfortunately) I have a good memory for the bad things people repeat online.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Sounds like it could be a wee bit of a curse at times. 🙁

Sorry, was just curious as to if it was native talent or fearsome organisation! 🙂

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

Shadowplay,

It is a bit of a curse, at times, lol.

But it does help to bust trolls.

But for sockpuppet-busting expertise, WWTH and SFHC are the absolute best at it!

Shadowplay
2 years ago

They do rock! 🙂 You three make one hell of a troll team. Know I appreciate you all.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
2 years ago

So, how long before Joaquin pops up in another thread screaming that feminists don’t care about male suicide and/or suicide rates prove that men are oppressed and feeemales aren’t? A week, maybe two?

Hexum7
Hexum7
2 years ago

It isn’t a men’s RIGHTS issue is what I meant.

What I hate most about this is that MRAs use the deaths of men as a talking point, To chide society for not doing anything specific about it, all the while knowing that there is plenty of work (not enough, perhaps, but plenty) being done in a genderless manner. To present it as a men’s issue is to suggest that female victims do not suffer as much, and are less important

Of course we should all care. That’s the point of talking about it, isnt it?

EJ (The Other One)
2 years ago

There was a moment when I realise that, in a war of words, there’s no such thing as debellatio: that some people will simply ignore whatever you say and continue blurting their rancid thoughts all over everyone, like the end of Akira but with rhetoric. You cannot win, because there is no mutually-agreed concept of victory. You can just keep fighting more and more pointlessly.

Joaquin:
You have said your piece. Despite your best attempts, you have failed to convince. We have said our piece. We, evidently, have also failed to convince. Further words on either part would be of limited use. You may depart now.

If it is important to you, you may regard this as being honourable on your part. Perhaps you may believe that we could not handle your truthbombs, or some other nice story; whatever makes you happy.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ joaquin

but car accidents and diseases kill many more, we could also focus on that

But we do! Just about every time there’s a safety issue spotted with vehicles, legislation is introduced to mitigate against further deaths.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/28155/how-jayne-mansfield-changed-design-tractor-trailers

Same with disease. That’s why there’s medical research.

It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not like we’re going to say “Ok doctors, stop working on those new vaccines, we need you to set up a firearms registry”

Joaquin
Joaquin
2 years ago

EJ:

Agreed, it’s a moot point, i just learned that mass shooting represent 2% of gun related deaths, according to a gun control site.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

So yes, i disagree with you, none of the points you raise are valid to me, but whatever.

And where did i blamed feminists for suicides and all that? can you find any post where i expressed such a thing?

I don’t care about feminists do with their lives anymore.

But but it seems YOU haven’t given up on attacking other people’s Constitutional rights.

Lucrece
Lucrece
2 years ago

Joaquin sputtered out:

I don’t care about feminists do with their lives anymore.

Aaannnd…I’m bored of this now. Just go away – you’re clearly on the wrong blog (see: comments above) and your debating skills are terrible, which makes you very uninteresting.

Come back when…how’s never for you?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

I’ve been away a bit, so I’ve missed the replies here. Shame, that! I’ll do that now.

Eeeemmmm and what motivates the people who want gun control?

The desire to minimize homicide and injury, by reducing the availability of murder weapons.

C’mon, now.

The death of schoolchildren IS a tragedy, but car accidents and diseases kill many more, we could also focus on that, or Mental Care, i don’t know.

Turns out we can do all of those thing simultaneously!

As the inestimable Alan pointed out, we already require licencing, insurance and registration for cars. Howabout we just do the same for guns? Have to take a test beforehand, have to register your firearms, have to take out firearm-insurance. I think that’s an awesome idea.

Diseases? We do that too. Country-wide immunization programs, yearly vaccination-drives to get people to vaccinate, all of that. I agree, let’s do more of it!

Mental care is something that’s desperately needed, I completely agree. We don’t do nearly enough. We need to provide way better mental health care, and we need to reduce the stigma of mental illness.

We can do all of these things, despite your suggestion that it’s an either-or problem. It’s not.

(Your fallacy, incidentally, is called the false dilemma. It’s common when emotions are high, or when one is depressed or stressed.)

And i still don’t have an answer regarding the effectiveness of a gun ban or some other measure, the failure of the War on Drug does not make me very optimist.

The US certainly has deeper issues than just a blanket gun control law, I’ll give you that. There’s a culture of gun worship in the United States, it seems, and a culture of violence that goes along with it. That would have to be addressed as well. I’m not sure how to deal with that, it’s a tough problem.

The literature isn’t sure about how effective gun control is in the United States; some papers claim it works and others claim it does not. This is in the context of a state-by-state control system, however, and I can’t really find much to suggest the study of a nation-wide control system. Other countries which have done so have had good results, in general.

None of the results I’ve seen, of the US-centric analyses, have come to the conclusion that gun control would increase homicide rates, though. So the scientific community is currently landing between “not sure” and “probably effective”.

That’s where the science is on it! Now you know.

I’m going to guess that that won’t convince you, though. Just a hunch.

Have a lovely day!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

But but it seems YOU haven’t given up on attacking other people’s Constitutional rights.

For a non-American, you certainly seem to have a boner for the 2nd Amendment. Not that it actually says what gun fetishists think it does or anything, but it’s pretty funny.

All of your posts are pretty much just a combination of these two images

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/img_7127.jpg

+

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/america-boner.gif

=

Joaquin

dawnpurityseeker
dawnpurityseeker
2 years ago

@Scild

“In the United States, reasons for owning a gun are different, and generally they’re the source of problems. They’re far from the solutions to those problems.”

To be fair, the US has both large animals and a hunting culture. And while I personally don’t love the idea of hunting, it does give some people an entire year of meat who may have struggled to afford red meat otherwise.

No need for things like AR-15s though.

@Joaquin

So, you say that you want a gun because you had a gun pointed at your head, but I’m really struggling to understand how a gun would have helped you in the situation you described. Do you think that a criminal, who already had his gun out and pointed at you, would have sat and waited for you to get your gun out and shoot him? Are you just going to walk around town with your gun out and pointed at everyone, just in case someone may think about pulling a gun on you? What, exactly would be your plan be here?