Dems win big! The Incels subreddit is banned! Celebrate in this open thread

@wwth

I know some people are intimidated by change and I understand that. What pisses me off is the hypocrisy. If you’re going to have a “bootstraps” mentality when other people – particularly those who don’t think or look like you – fall on hard times, you have to apply that for yourself. Don’t brag about how hard working and tough you are, unlike the millenials/people of color/liberals who just want everything handed to them and deserve to be poor because they don’t work or they majored in the wrong thing or whatever, and then refuse to retrain because you want the way things used to be back. That’s what gets me. They’re happy to yell “get a job!” at others but don’t hold themselves to the same standard. If you want unfettered capitalism to shit on everyone you don’t like, even if it hurts you too, fine (well not fine, but you know what I mean). But you have no right to complain when the hurting you too comes to pass.

Amen, sister! This is what it looks like when you (“you” being those who backed supply side economics) gambled on a casino economy and lost, but instead of admitting that you made a mistake and working to fix it by electing those who want to change it, they blame that mistake on a convenient scapegoat. I can understand the need for your job to be valued, and if you’re told that the thing you’ve dedicated your life to isn’t needed anymore, you feel discarded, but this need to find another to look down on is as human as it is pathetic.

If there’s one thing I learned back when the Tea Party protests featured “Keep your government hands off my Medicare” signs is that these people really do think they are the rightful recipients of the social safety net and everyone else has not “earned it” to their satisfaction. This is what 30 years of Rush Limbaugh crapping into people’s skulls looks like close-up. Ordinarily, a hard-working coal miner should be able to appreciate what a fast-food cashier has to go through to make ends meet, but something burned that empathy right out of them, and it’s a right-wing media complex that constructs a mythology about “the other” that lends comfort to them when wages have remained stagnant for decades.

Citizens United has to go. The Fairness Doctrine needs to be re-implemented. Then we gotta deprogram those we can.

Husbeast is feeling better. We were at the doctor yesterday and when he looked at the CT scan he thought that when Husbeast strained a muscle in his lower right abdomen, it may have pinched his ascending colon (there was some inflammation there.) He’s on a low-fiber diet for a few days to give the colon a rest and working from home the rest of the week.

We are feeling very grateful for the privilege of good health care and paid sick leave from HB’s very good job right now, let me tell you!

All of the comments about UBI have been very interesting. I wish we (as a species) could get serious about abolishing poverty, but I think that tribalism and greed will get in the way until we can get past them.

Jesalin – I hope you can make peace with your choice, and/or maybe get it changed in the future. You’re a strong, beautiful human being and you deserve to be happy.

@wwth

It wasn’t my intention to make you feel like shit, and I’m sorry for that. However,

I’m sorry you had an ex who manipulated you in that way, but you’re doing that thing that right wingers love to do so much. Using the fact that some people will abuse the system to justify getting rid of or never implementing necessary aid.

This is not at all what I am saying. I’m saying that necessary aid does not have to look like a cash transfer. It can look different. If you’re not getting that, then I’m not sure what I can say differently to make it clear.

Every system of aid is abuseable. I’m not against UBI because it can be abused, I’m against it because it would have major effects on the economy that aren’t necessarily predictable, and because it would serve as a direct transfer of wealth from the government to landlords. I’m not interested in enriching landlords. Every cash and cash-equivalent benefit has this effect, which is why I am super sour on them. Even EBT is just a transfer of wealth from the government to grocery providers, many of which are providing low-quality food in food deserts and some of which commit straight-up EBT fraud.

I don’t like cash transfers because the cash goes into the pockets of people who aren’t needy: landlords and service providers. The provision of benefits to the needy is an afterthought. Since it is possible to provide benefits to the needy without the middleman, it makes sense to me to do that. Middlemen do not need to be enriched. Period.

ETA: I guess what I’m saying is that cash transfer benefits try to operate within a capitalist system, which we all know to be kind of shit. I’m not sure why everyone here is convinced that the market will step up to the plate if UBI were implemented. I am incredibly cynical about the market doing anything useful. I’ve seen how the market as a system abuses cash transfers, and making the cash transfers bigger doesn’t seem like the way to solve that.

POM,

Then why bring up lazy people who need to be forced to work at all? It’s not your opinion of the logistics of UBI that’s getting the pushback here. I think we can all respectfully disagree about the exact methods of bringing about a more equitable society and ending poverty.

The issue is that the narrative of people who aren’t doing paid employment as lazy and useless is inherently oppressive. Particularly towards people with mental illness or disability although not exclusively that. You know better than to repeat ableist narratives and you know better than to give a “sorry you were offended” notpology for it.

Late, per yoozh
Re: UBI vs public services
1)there needn’t be a ‘vs’
2)how much would the whole government housing and fooding and etc thing cost exactly? I know a basic income ain’t cheap, gonna need some estimates on ‘the alternative’
3)inflation just really does not work that way. At all. That’s a rather simplistic presentation of a rather more complex issue. Simplistic to the point of total inaccuracy
4)3 square meals, a cot, and medical care, anything else you work for… that sounds a bit… prisony, don’t it? Espcially seeing as, depending on which commissar (or whatever we call it) you live under, food, bed, and medicine become less than a certainty. David Clarke ain’t the exception, to round back to the prison comparison. And then there’s just the bureaucrats who’re corrupt or who’ll cut corners at every opportunity. And people above mentioned food considerations, so I won’t repeat
5)speaking of prisons and such, this is gonna be hella racist. I mean, it already is. There’s a significant strain of ‘the poors are too lazy/uneducated/brown to be trusted with money. Let’s provide for them what’s best for them’. No thanks. ‘Inner city’ projects (cos that’s what these are, projects) are gonna be just as shit as they’ve always been, cos racism. And bulding contracts and oversight and whatnot are gonna be just as bullshit as always, cos racism
6)look, nobody’s saying ‘no public housing ever’. But it’s not a fix all. Neither is a basic income. A more diverse system of solutions will be needed
Addendum)I, personally, disagree with the idea that a Spartan life is actually a life. We can do better than that. I also, personally, disagree that people should be punished by the government for not working. We can also do better than that. Also also, nthing WWTH’s tone argument (for lack of better term). Cos what the fuck, PoM? Come now…

I have thinky thoughts on universal basic income, but i have to do some chores so can’t really post right now. Will do so this afternoon probs! I just wanted to 1up Axe there, ’cause the idea of government services providing everything is horrifying on so many levels to me. For many of the reasons stated.

Just give everyone a little cheque, and have sensible legislation to ensure that companies don’t just jack up prices in response. I mean, universal basic income is about as likely as getting sensible business controls anyways, might as well assume both in this projection.

that’s all simplification, though. I have to go shovel a bunch’a snow and then do some drivey time. Back later.

About the latest news….Here’s ME….
….THE AWESOME IS STRONG!

@Axe – I’ll give comment.

1)there needn’t be a ‘vs’

??

If everyone gets a universal basic income, what need is there for 90% of the services? You got your money, you pay for what you need.

2)how much would the whole government housing and fooding and etc thing cost exactly?

God knows. How much would UBI cost? How much would each save is a fairer question – I do recall (for example) that it’s actually significantly cheaper to house the homeless than pay for the results of homelessness. But does that scale?

3)

I defer to you. Really do have no idea in economics (nor much interest in learning).

4)3 square meals, a cot, and medical care, anything else you work for… that sounds a bit… prisony, don’t it?

Yep. Undignified to my ear too, but that’s personal experience. Though part of your point 5 covers some of my thinking on that.

@Moggie Not particularly. :/

Re: UBI

There used to be a thing here called Enterprise Allowance. Basically if you signed up for it you got £40pw (which was a bit more than the dole at the time) for 12 months, and that was regardless of any earnings you managed on top.

The flipside was that at the end of the 12 months you were on your own. It was really hard to sign on if things hadn’t worked out.

I used that after school to do the roadie thing. I don’t know how successful it was at creating new businesses. A few bands started that way.

There’s a motivational speaker cliche ‘what would you do if you knew that you could not fail?’.

I could tell you, but do we really want the Secret Service sniffing around here?

@Shadowplay
At work, can’t get into the weeds
1)most government services would not be made redundant by a basic income. Unemployment benefits and social security, sure. Public transit and universal healthcare, not at all. Also, racism, sexism, other isms. Also also, while I don’t trust the military/police/power grid in gov hands, I super don’t trust the private sector with it
2)UBI’s costs depends on how
‘universal’ and ‘basic’ are defined. If the former means ‘all adult citizens and legal resident aliens’ and the latter means ‘enough to meet the poverty line’, then about $3t. Like I said, not cheap
3)since when are questions about public policy fair? 😛 Still one worth asking and, frankly, an unavoidable one
4)it’s true that it costs less to home the homeless. No, I don’t know how that scales. Probably fairly well?

Goddammit!

Louis C.K.’s Movie Premiere Canceled in Advance of N.Y. Times Story

Is there NO ONE that can keep it in their fucking pants?!

(Sorry, missed edit window on prev post)

Edit:

Thank you, @Axe. Something to think on 🙂