Dems win big! The Incels subreddit is banned! Celebrate in this open thread

re: No one wanting to do unpleasant but vitally neccessary work.

What about the following: If no one wants to do it at first, we simply wait. Since it *is* vital, people might soon realized that we are all screwed when it doesn’t get done, (i.e. sewage) and the demand for people willing to do those jobs will rise.

Now, since we have a Basic Universal Income that covers a decent life (which the income from the “unpleasant work” at least in this country very often does not – and if it does the extra money isn’t enough to compensate for the unpleasantness of the job) nobody would be forced to take any job for bad pay. In other words the neccessities of survival will no longer force people to sell their labour far below it’s actual value – and though we often don’t see it that way, those unpleasant jobs are immensely valuable, because without them being done it would get ugly fast.

So as soon as society realizes that we desperately need those things done (when everyone is drowning in their own filth, for example), there should come a point (rather quickly, I guess) where they will be willing to pay whatever it takes to get them done. Not out ouf empathy or a newfound appreciation for the people doing those jobs but simply out of self-preservation and self-interest. And if the jobs start getting paid really well (and I mean *really* well), why wouldn’t people want to do them. If I could afford a very nice house, shiny stuff and a secure future for myself and my family, I might just do that stuff.

We all can’t imagine that right now (someone in a “low” job being paid as well as say a lawyer or a doctor), but that is in part because our system as it is forces people to do those jobs for a lot less money and when they refuse they only have the choice between welfare and being poor – if they’re lucky – or starving. Remove that pressure, see if it’s still so easy to exploit people.

There is of course also the fact that employers are allowed to simply exploit people from other countries who are even worse off and therefore face the aforementioned pressure in a much greater degree, if the workers “at home” should get “uppity ideas”. So this policy needs to be prevented while at the same time (or if possible even before that) making sure that the people in these places have their own chances at good employment and decent wages. In this case the relatively well-off people (not *all* people) from more affluent countries have a kind of obligation towards those from poorer countries so that the increase in our well-being doesn’t come at their expense.

I realize this *sounds* utopian and impossible, but I also think that we should radically re-think issues in this area and above all should *stop * believing that the current system of global capitalism is the endpoint of all development and some kind of unchangeable constant. Anyway. So much for the idealistic dreaming. It already got much longer than intended.

Excellent news. I’ve seen mot of it elsewhere but it’s glorious to see it all together.

Get well soon David.

Your proposal still runs afoul of points 1 and 3: one-size-fits-all-ism and susceptibility to stigmatism … what happens when someone with special dietary requirements shows up? And what other commenters have said.

I didn’t think I would hold people’s attention if I wrote a 500-page treatise covering every possible contingency (such as food allergies), so I didn’t. I summed up the very basic overview in ~100 words. If you’re willing to assume that rent-seeking can be overcome if we just tweak the rules enough, I’m not sure why you would assume that I’m proposing zero tweaks to accommodate special situations.

And all of that hoop-jumping just to punish people for not working?

Some people frankly need to be punished for not working. I know, and I’m sure everyone else knows, folks who are perfectly capable, who have skills, who just don’t feel like working but instead feel like sitting at home doing nothing but playing video games and being supported by Mom or by a partner. “But Mental Illness” is not a response to that. Laziness is not a mental illness, and not everyone who is lazy has untreated depression. Nor does everyone with depression suffer from laziness. The two are just not connected very well.

When others have pointed out that people get bored of idleness after a while, so such is not necessary?

My ex never got bored of laziness. He always filled his time with video games or going out with his friends, until I booted him out, at which time he found the energy to work AND go to school to improve his working situation. I’m over it now, but I can’t tell how you furious I was to discover that yes, he did have energy and drive, he just found it easier to do nothing when he could mooch off me.

I’m not sure where this psychological assertion that laziness goes away eventually originates, because my experience says it isn’t true for everyone. Some people need a boot in the ass to get off the couch, and that’s just a fact.

Universal housing would give even lazy bums the right to sit around and do nothing if they wanted to, but maybe eventually they would get tired of not having any party money and go out and work for some.

Would you really trust the government to provide your food every week? Or be your landlord?

I’d trust the government to do that long before I would trust them to ensure that someone suffering IPV doesn’t have their UBI stolen from them by the abusive partner. I would trust the government to do that long before I would trust them to somehow centrally manipulate the economy so it doesn’t spin out of control when tons of loose money is sloshing around. Not sure why we give the government tons of good faith assumptions when it comes to UBI but not housing.

New Dr Who costume for the 13th Doctor has been released this afternoon, which has helped cheer me up no end after a crap week. I’m wondering how long it will be before the trolls interpret the colours across the Doctor’s chest as an LGBTQI symbol and kick off accordingly.

For what it’s worth, the many clients who use the homeless shelter I volunteer for have a wide range of needs which impact whether they can work and what kind of work they can do; but none of them would be people I classed as ‘lazy’ – their day by day struggles are an order of magnitude harder than mine.

Some people frankly need to be punished for not working.

Why? Given that it’s well known – in the US at least – that the real unemployment rate is higher than the official rate, which is never and will never be 0%, we don’ t actually need 100% employment to keep the economy and government running.

Honestly, I’d rather have the shitheads out of the way than have them mucking up the workplace anyway. Most professional moochers aren’t able to avoid employment their whole entire lives. I’m sure we’ve all had people like this as coworkers before. Or as customers gotten terrible day ruining service from people like this. They do a shitty half assed job and screw things up, they provide terrible service to customers/clients and they pass off as much work as possible to their coworkers. Their mistakes cost companies money and they aggravate everyone else. The economy would probably function better without their participation.

Also, as someone who has low level anxiety and depression that reads as laziness to people, even people who know me well, your post come off as really judgmental and made me feel like shit. So thanks for that.

People are really, really married to the idea that anxiety always looks like panicky meltdowns rather than paralysis and that depression always looks like all day crying jags and suicidal ideation rather than apathy or fatigue. But that’s not true. Are you really so fucking sure that you or anyone else is can tell for certain who is just a lazy mooch and who is suffering from mental health issues?

I’m sorry you had an ex who manipulated you in that way, but you’re doing that thing that right wingers love to do so much. Using the fact that some people will abuse the system to justify getting rid of or never implementing necessary aid.

@Alan

The Mork vibe has been commented on by quite a lot of Twitter, as it happens. I’ll be looking for one of those coats for cosplay forthwith (I already have boots that will do.)

@WWTH

I imagine the costume will evolve over the next couple of seasons, so it’ll probably become variations on a theme, like Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi did, and the pants might change. I think the suspenders are cool, but then again as I type this I’m wearing a swamp green tank top, so all fashion comments from me should be taken with more than a pinch of salt.

Off-topic (ish), haven’t heard from Troubelle in a while… (I was cataloging Resistance Songs yesterday)… hope they’re ok.

@POM

” Not sure why we give the government tons of good faith assumptions when it comes to UBI but not housing.”

Because providing a UBI/guaranteed employment gives power to the disenfranchised while providing goods directly keeps the power with the powerful(ie. the government). Providing a UBI means that the government just needs to pony up the money and leaves the rest of the responsibility on the person getting the benefit, while providing goods directly means that the government needs to coordinate the complicated task of making the goods fit the person, which is possible but a bit like performing surgery with a machete.

Sorry if this seems a little short, both literally and figuratively, but I have an appointment and I’m out of time. 🙂

Lots of great responses, I’ll drop back in later. 🙂

My point in this is that providing a UBI allows the individual to determine what a basic living looks like to them. That’s important, because everyone’s life is different.

Maybe having a little wine now and then is important to my sanity. Maybe having the freedom to seek housing elsewhere if I don’t like my neighbors is important. My hormones are not covered by insurance, and I would expect them to fall through the cracks in a system like this. Maybe I live with my parents, and together we have an acceptable living.

Maybe I’m the sort of person who needs a “boot in the ass” to work because work ratchets up my anxiety over time and always ends in a catastrophic meltdown that I need weeks or months to recover from. Maybe I look “lazy”, but there are issues I have that aren’t immediately obvious, and I DO NOT appreciate being judged for having a set of mental illnesses.

All the cool kids are on the Discord server. We have custom emojis B)

It will work out fine. We just need to find one magician or fortune teller who can determine without fail who’s ill and who’s just lazy, and then all the countries will share that person to do all their paper work.