By David Futrelle
It’s a rarity in this year of terrible, but tonight has been a night of actual good news! Dems are winning elections, and Reddit has banned the toxic cesspool known as the Incels subreddit! Celebrate while you can in this open thread!
No trolls. Fuck trolls.
This is the first time a wall of news notifications hasn't been a nightmare in god knows how long pic.twitter.com/NpTaW5QK6e
— Ashley Feinberg (ashleyfeinberg.bsky.social) (@ashleyfeinberg) November 8, 2017
Dems have won all three of the marquee off-year races — NJGov, VAGov, NYC Mayor — for the first time since 1989.
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 8, 2017
Democrats decimated Republicans across the country tonight, at every level and in every branch of state government.
— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) November 8, 2017
Thanks, Trump!
And this is the icing on the cake:
Trans woman Danica Roem (D) just defeated anti-LGBTQ candidate Bob Marshall (R) in Virginia, becoming the first trans state legislator in America.
— Laura Bassett (@LEBassett) November 8, 2017
The man who wrote the anti-trans bathroom bill just lost the election to a trans woman. Let that sink in. https://t.co/KFEZXSYvMy
— Laura Bassett (@LEBassett) November 8, 2017
Oh, and there’s this:
Jeff Sessions' DOJ Drops Prosecution Of Woman Who Laughed At Jeff Sessions https://t.co/slOPOhmLYN pic.twitter.com/ekRsU1RJAq
— Curt and Frank 🏳️🌈 (@curtandfrank) November 7, 2017
Let’s all celebrate by laughing at Jeff Sessions!
Meanwhile, on Reddit:
Reddit has banned the Incels subreddit. About fucking time; it was a cesspool of misogyny and violent hate. pic.twitter.com/8RieXtxZLN
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) November 8, 2017
HEALTH NOTE: Though cheered by tonight’s news, I’m still dealing with a shitstorm of health issues. I will return to regular posting as soon as I can, but I’m not sure when that will be. Thanks again for your patience and your support!
Can I vent about some recent trauma? Has to do with financial things and family, but these things are upsetting too.
For those who missed it, my mom passed away recently and I have a big financial mess on my hands. I thought I had most of it straight, now one of her bank accounts is in the negative numbers, there’s some auto pay drawing from it, and I don’t know what it is. o_0
I saw this bank letter, I panicked and then burst into tears 🙁
I thought I had it all reasonably straight. I guess not. My friend brought over beer 🙂 And says she will help me with it – tomorrow. And then on Monday I can call about things. And tomorrow because I have decided not to go to a “family thing” for my mom.
Which is also upsetting. And this is an excuse too, – another mess, have to work on immediately, have to bring other papers to the lawyer, it all has to be straightened out.
These people, these relatives, I have always been at odds with. My cousin who helped me (she’s ok), it’s her parents, particularly her mother, my aunt, my mom’s sister. She has never liked me and at times been downright mean to me. And I was never sure why.
Mom passed on 20 Oct. So that’s like 20 days. These people couldn’t call me? See if I was OK? Offer any help? Even just a short call? Or tell my cousin to say something like we’re thinking of Z and if she needs anything or is she ok? Nothing. Not one word.
And they have also come here from out of town, been here since Thursday, cousin suggested that we do something Sunday, has any one of these people called me? No.
Even a short phone call when you got into town? No. Nothing.
And tomorrow it’s supposed to rain and snow. And where these people live is like 40 miles away from me. In an area I’m not familiar with. And my car does not do well in snow and ice. I decided that I’m not going to risk my safety just to “show face” to people who clearly care very little about me, and who never really have.
I’m not going. Tara says: No, you can’t go anywhere, you have another paperwork mess and it has to be worked on for Monday. Have to. Only chance for me to help you too. And: Fuck them.
I hope I’m doing the right thing here. I think so. T says so. My other friend said: Would you drive that in bad weather for something you wanted? No. So then why would you do it for assholes who can’t seem to be bothered with you?
Yep. Sigh 🙁
Well I guess I have another paperwork mess on my hands to take my mind off of them.
@Z&T
Hugs offered. I know too well how hard it can be to deal with cleaning up all the little messes while people less impacted by the death expect you to make them feel better by attending social evemts while not offering you any support. People suck. Do what you need to for your own health and forget about the jerks.
<3
Thank you Kupo 🙂
I just saw something that confirmed my thoughts, let’s look at something else, don’t dwell on negative things, then I thought – let’s see if any of these relatives have posted anything on FB lately. And yes, they have. Over the last few days and just in the last few hours. Nothing to do with me or passing of mom, just the regular crapola that people put on there, cartoons of don’t talk to me before I have coffee, whining about the stress they have, various bs.
Can post crap on there, can’t even make a short call to me?
Sigh 🙁
But no big shock because I’ve always known what kind of people they were.
So sorry to hear about the family, Z&T, and your mom. I’ve been reading your comments but haven’t spoken up. But I’ve been mired in similar shit.
My father passed away the night of the Vegas shooting.
And no one from my extended so-called family reached out to me at all.
And then I after I was exhausted by the memorial service and had to work the next morning, they all thought I was terrible for not hanging out with them.
You take care of yourself, Z&T. <3 <3 <3
Thank you bunches. You’ve put it in perspective. I’ve been thinking about it for a while and I realize that, while there’s a lot of cases, it’s still a handful of guys in a vast sea of male showbiz talent.
Also; A few hours ago, I was in a state of my mind short-circuiting because of finding out about Takei.
I’m not a Star Trek enthusiast but I do respect the franchise and it’s positive message and I loved Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (The funny whale one) film.
I was a mess over Takei because he was always such a cool guy and a great Progressive ally and it hurts extra when a beloved Progressive ally….one known for his brilliance and wit and retorts to the jerks in high places….turns out to be a jerk himself.
Thus; A few hours ago, I was in a weird state. Hence my words and tone.
To those on here who are hurting….
….Fuzz Therapy!
….and a wombat….
….Roundness from Down Under-ness.
INTERNATIONAL FUZZ THERAPY FOR EVERYBODY!
LaurelG, thanks for re-examining the situation and your preconceptions so quickly.
I don’t think this one has been mentioned:
As long as you automatically classify someone who does this as a false accuser, you never will, either.
Just this week, there have been at least two: Scott Brunton in reference to Takei, and Richard Dreyfuss’ son in reference to Spacey.
I’ve also seen many women do it, to preempt criticism that they are overreacting to a “mere” grope as if it was a rape and serious bodily injury, and to assert that they have survived the assault without lasting damage. “Professional victim” is a painful slur, and a very common one.
Forgive me, I’m feeling a bit zen tonight.
<3 Z&T. The world is a very uncaring place sometimes, and it's given you the cold shoulder more than you deserve over the past while. That's not your fault and it doesn't reflect on you. I'll have a drink for you mom tonight, and for a gentler future ahead of you.
@Spukikitty,
Everyone.
You, me, everyone here. Everyone. I’m not being hyperbolic or dramatic. It’s so important to realize that each and every one of us is capable of acting terribly, and to later try to justify that evil. That’s why the world is the way it is.
We’re all capable of monstrosities, left-wing or right-wing, progressive or conservative, religious or atheistic. It’s a byproduct of how we think.
Yes.
Our culture encourages men to be confident, bold, take what they want. Men who behave that way are deferred to. By everyone. Men and women all do this. Feminists do this. I am not certain but I suspect that there is a strong neurological inclination in this, as we see this behaviour in great apes as well, though in the great apes it is non-gendered.
The more i think about rationality and finding right answers – doing good and thinking clearly – the more I think that the root of evil is confidence. Self-doubt is the seed of compassion. In self-destruction, we can more freely see and feel the lives around us.
@LaurelG,
Agreed. Though this is only one path to that conclusion, there are others. I also would want to say that our society positively rewards abusive men. They call it confidence. That’s how Takei saw it.
A general can call their battle-plan a “bold action” and take pride in the efficiency of their soldiers. To those opposing them, “bold” is a less appropriate word than “terrifying.” And our society loves teaching men that they should be commanders and generals, especially American society.
That’s what the gun control thing is all about, in my opinion. Nothing to do with the guns or any reasons they might give. They’re taught that they need to be action heroes to be proper men. For a lot of them, that means guns are required.
It’s a horrible mess, and the more I think about it, the more urgent it seems. The last two years and the rise of the fascists paints it in an entirely new perspective.
Time for that drink, I think!
Thank you eli, and everyone, for your thoughts 🙂
It really means a lot.
We’re trying to relax here, my friend has come to help me, oh this is the one who was sick from being bitten by a brown recluse spider. Bad sick. Bit in the face. Looked like extreme chemical burns. Very bad. She’s better now though 🙂
And has come to help me with these various issues. We all try to help each other out. Unlike your so called “family”….
Sigh. Try to think about something else, T says.
Yes. Good idea.
Our hugs and best wishes to all dealing with issues as well 🙂
@ Z&T
And fuzzy wombats of love!….
….Hope you feel better.
@Scildfreja – spot on, as usual.
I think, too, that this behavior is an outgrowth of the unhealthy tendency in American society (and perhaps elsewhere) to shovel all the riches and rewards towards the few successful people at the top, and direct all the crappy byproducts (abuse, harassment, minimum wage toil, pollution) downwards to be absorbed by the rest of the population. In other words, regular people take the hit so the .0001% can enjoy a smooth life. Late capitalist oligarchy and celebrity worship have similar underpinnings.
I’m taking the allegations against Takei seriously, but at the same time there are aspects of it that don’t sit right with me. For one thing, the timing stinks to high heaven. One day after Moore, reported on by three pro-Trump outlets? There’s been a very suspicious pattern of the right wing wresting away control of the news cycle. Every time a story airs about Trump-Russia or other sordid GOP doings, it seems like there’s an immediate terrorist attack, or mass shooting, or some form of whataboutism that muddies the waters.
The second problematic aspect of this is that right wingers can, and do, use progressives’ moral inclinations against them. It’s a favorite gotcha tactic of theirs. They play the victim, then fling tolerance and free speech back in our faces. Because we’re not festering shitwits who want power at all costs and think certain categories of human are worthless, we don’t have the luxury of handwaving away inconvenient behavior from our side. Because we’re committed to equality and justice for all, we’re obligated to listen to victims respectfully and treat accusers the same regardless of their political affiliation. It’s what separates us from the assholes, but it also makes us vulnerable to manipulation and false flags.
I dunno, I feel like it’s a no-win situation for us. If the allegations are true, then one of our best allies is tainted and discredited. If they’re false, then we look like fools, the waters are muddied, MRAs get to crow about false rape allegations, #metoo disappears in a haze of he-said/she-said, and women lose the small amount of traction they started to gain when, for all of two minutes, there was a serious national dialogue about the impact of sexual harassment.
@SpukiKitty
Spuki, I understand your feeling. I felt this way when I was younger (although not all that young) and dating an awful guy. I started to project his awfulness onto all men, even though I didn’t want to. That was a very dark time for me.
Others have stated the case for good men very well. I’ll just add that my boyfriend is a good guy. I’ve lived with him since 2003, so I think I know him pretty well. And I’ll underscore what freneticferret said by reporting that my boyfriend is also flawed. I get really mad at him! That said, I always trust that he has a conscience and will live according to it.
I’m glad you’re feeling better about this issue.
When You Can’t Throw All Men Into The Ocean And Start Over, What CAN You Do?
What a load of bullshit.
How’s about, you know, NOT FUCKING DOING THAT? It’s not carved in stone. Not obligatory.
And if you want to change society, the one action that is mostly within your control is how you raise your own kids.
Don’t like doom and gloom whiners. (and yeah, woke up with a headache 😛 )
@Shadowplay
Wow, I understood that quote completely differently. To me it didn’t seem to describe things as set in stone at all. On the contrary, I read it as “boys are not doomed to be rapists/abusers just by being boys, but by what society and often their parents teach them”. For me that sounds hopeful, because then there can be change exactly as you described in your post: By how we raise our kids and by fighting the pervasive presence of rape-culture in our societies. To me the quote sounds more like a: “This is where we as societies are going wrong and this is what we need to change.” than “This is how things are and they will never change. Deal with it.”
On re-reading the quote that isn’t explicitly said, it seems to be simply an analysis of what is going wrong. So maybe it’s optimism on my part, but the conclusion I drew from that analysis was exactly the one you seem to demand: We *can* change this.
On a related note I really liked what was said in a comment above: That men are rapists by nurture not nature. To me that sums up the issue quite well and I’m going to use it in future conversations. It seems as if it could be used against several annoying pseudo-arguments I’m so often confronted with. Like the accusation that as a feminist I must hate/blame/suspect even little boys (I have a friend with two little sons, who I’m in the process of (hopefully) convincing that “feminists” (read: STRAW-feminists) do not think that her kids are automatically rapists…) and the all-pervasive pseudo-scientific evo- psych bs of Men Can’t Help It Because It’s In Their Nature.
@Spukitty
Researchers are increasingly finding out that rape is not just a problem with male perpetrators.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/health/men-who-were-sexually-assaulted-10271205
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/kze8qn/the-hidden-epidemic-of-men-who-are-raped-by-women
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/09/22/rape-cdc-numbers-misleading-definition-date-forced-sexual-assault-column/16007089/
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/07/11/sexual-offending-by-women-is-surprisingly-common-claims-us-study/
http://all-that-is-interesting.com/american-men-rape-victims
@LittleLurker
Maybe you’re right. The article just flicked me the wrong way (I do get grumpy when a headache happens). And I’m probably judging harshly.
I’ve seen this type of article for decades though (it feels longer) and they always remind me of a truism: “Your pack doesn’t get any lighter if you sit and look at it.”
They’re sitting and looking at the pack – not donning it and getting on with whatever task they have.
Ahmad,
respectfully, most people here know this. know about female abuser and know about male and non-binary viticms. sexual assalt about power.
maybe you not come here often but I don’t understand why you feel you must to post this links?
I don’t agree everything spukikitty say, but they talking on what topic we discuss now – toxic men and celebrity.
maybe you only mean to share for information – but seem little bit to me you saying like ‘not all men’ but only not so direct.
@Shadowplay
Littlelurker’s analysis is correct; indeed, in the article the author specifically talks about how she is raising her sons,and the difficulties of counteracting the social forces mentioned the pullquote.
Tl;dr: Parents are not the sole source of socialization for their children.
Cant’ write a big post, just gotta comment on one thing.
Parents do that sort of thing unconsciously. It takes incredible social awareness to notice yourself doing it if you aren’t used to it, and parents are already overloaded with tasks. We encourage the gender roles we were encouraged with, without even thinking about it. This is not a small problem.
Have a lovely day, all!
😛
Alright, I were being grumpy. Sorry.
Been reading through the early archives (I’m bored) and two observations have sprung up.
1/ Most of the gathering places for fools David mocked early on no longer exist. Going to score that as a big plus. 🙂
2/ Holy crap, these arseholes are wordy.
SORRY IF THIS IS A LOOOOOONG POST….
I’m no doubt aware of that, as we all should.
Thus; it’s important for us to….
* Produce a counter-argument and counter-narrative.
* Remember to not get all “Witch-Hunty”.
* Balance “Believe the accusers” with “Innocent until proven guilty” (The latter if there’s only one accuser, especially. Multiple accusers, however, are the sign that the accused is most likely guilty).
Indeed; We must always be on-guard against the opponents who wish to derail us in any way. They can be sneaky and we need a strong system of counter-argument.
Example: In the 60s-70s; The Feds were getting all COINTELPRO on the Left’s butt….but the Left just sat there, divided. Had they gone on TV or radio to STRONGLY AND ANGRILY DENOUNCE all that propaganda and provide a strong counter-argument, perhaps things would’ve been negated a bit.
I have yet to see a big sea of Hippies say….
* “The Manson Family are not Flower Children and we are utterly disgusted with their sick bigotry, hatred and murder! They do not represent us and we HATE everything we stand for!!!”.
Or the original Black Panthers say….
* “WE DID NOT MAKE THAT COLORING BOOK AND WHOEVER MADE IT IS AN ENEMY OF THE BLACK PANTHERS AND ALL WE REPRESENT!!!”
Likewise; There needs to be a huge counter against the bigots and NeoNazis of today that is a lot more than just groups like The SPLC or The ADL. There needs to be a plethora of groups and sites using the same tactics as the Hate-Bunch….complete with a funky subculture, music scene, etc.
A comprehensive, one-stop-shop of knowledge about Islam and Muslims, written from a Progressive, Anti-Frummer, Fact-Based, Anti-Islamophobic perspective that explains everything, explains the arguments of the “haters” and everything.
That said; We’re better about countering stuff, now but a counter is a MUST!
********
Both of you are right in your own way. The author’s observation is correct but the article is still a tad cynical in that she feels overwhelmed in teaching her sons not to be sexist jerks.
I think the best course of action is to not see everything as super-bad as the author makes it. While she is correct in that Patriarchy and the gunk that goes with is is pervasive she still contends that it’s so super-in-your-face and super-sexist that things that are semi-benign or merely annoying equal “OMG! IT EXPLICITLY SAYS RAPE IS AWESOME!”.
In a nutshell; She needs to relax. It’s easier to fight the bad stuff if it doesn’t seem so overwhelming. I’m almost afraid she’ll take it to extremes to the point where her sons see her as a “Feminist helicopter Mom” and go all-Matt Forney on her.
You need to be gentle and focus on the obvious first and society….though awash in “Rape Culture”….still has the general pretext that “Rape is bad! Rape is a crime! Rape is gross!”. All she needs to do is gently teach her kids that everyone deserves respect and no one owes them romance/sex.
The author makes good points but she sees it as extreme. This causes her to feel overwhelmed. She needs to relax, stay positive, stay hopeful and teach her sons that it’s better to be a gentleman who respects a woman’s feelings.
The best social/attitude change is incremental. The Patriarchy didn’t become a thing overnight so don’t expect it to disappear overnight.
********
@Ahmad
I’m no doubt aware of that. We all are. Also; What Valentin – Emigrantski Ragamuffin said.
Heck; Sexual crimes can affect anyone and be perped by anyone and victimize anyone. We just mainly focus on “Male-Against-Female” because it happens the most often, is the most pervasive and the most connected to sexism and entitlement.
Heck; George Takei allegedly messed with another man, not a woman.
********
AND THAT IS….
….KEEP IT UP, EVERYBODY!
A better world without bigotry in-charge is attainable!
@Shadowplay
Not only are they worry, they don’t even always seem to grasp the meaning of the words they use.
It’s hilarious, really.
Then there’s their weird attempt at “Art”, “Protests” and “Memes” which tend to be incredibly pathetic and/or nonsensical (though some are indeed explicitly disturbing).
These recent elections, the exposure of sexually-abusive slimeballs from Hollywood and elsewhere and the investigations/arrests with the Trump bunch are signs that we are winning!
KEEP UP THE FIGHT AND NEVER REST ON YOUR LAURELS!
@Kupo I’ll cut them a little slack for that. I can’t expect guys who have difficulty with the concept that women are people to handle the use of a dictionary. 😛
Though you sparked another thought – these fools are all about “the science,” right? So why are all their weak metaphors from economics? The E in STEM is Engineering.
Edit to add: SpukiKitty – it’s not just your username that’s awesome.