By David Futrelle
It’s a rarity in this year of terrible, but tonight has been a night of actual good news! Dems are winning elections, and Reddit has banned the toxic cesspool known as the Incels subreddit! Celebrate while you can in this open thread!
No trolls. Fuck trolls.
This is the first time a wall of news notifications hasn't been a nightmare in god knows how long pic.twitter.com/NpTaW5QK6e
— Ashley Feinberg (ashleyfeinberg.bsky.social) (@ashleyfeinberg) November 8, 2017
Dems have won all three of the marquee off-year races — NJGov, VAGov, NYC Mayor — for the first time since 1989.
— David Weigel (@daveweigel) November 8, 2017
Democrats decimated Republicans across the country tonight, at every level and in every branch of state government.
— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) November 8, 2017
Thanks, Trump!
And this is the icing on the cake:
Trans woman Danica Roem (D) just defeated anti-LGBTQ candidate Bob Marshall (R) in Virginia, becoming the first trans state legislator in America.
— Laura Bassett (@LEBassett) November 8, 2017
The man who wrote the anti-trans bathroom bill just lost the election to a trans woman. Let that sink in. https://t.co/KFEZXSYvMy
— Laura Bassett (@LEBassett) November 8, 2017
Oh, and there’s this:
Jeff Sessions' DOJ Drops Prosecution Of Woman Who Laughed At Jeff Sessions https://t.co/slOPOhmLYN pic.twitter.com/ekRsU1RJAq
— Curt and Frank 🏳️🌈 (@curtandfrank) November 7, 2017
Let’s all celebrate by laughing at Jeff Sessions!
Meanwhile, on Reddit:
Reddit has banned the Incels subreddit. About fucking time; it was a cesspool of misogyny and violent hate. pic.twitter.com/8RieXtxZLN
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) November 8, 2017
HEALTH NOTE: Though cheered by tonight’s news, I’m still dealing with a shitstorm of health issues. I will return to regular posting as soon as I can, but I’m not sure when that will be. Thanks again for your patience and your support!
Denouncing isn’t enough. Takei has done plenty of denouncing. I don’t think there’s really a way to be sure, not with a damn celebrity. Celebrities, after all, are people who make a living on selling a filtered, polished, idealized vision of themselves to the world.
It’s a lot like being a politician, and both of these things tend to come with a lot of narcissism and need for power.
But surely the majority of men are against sexual harassment! Surely rape and sexual harassment are NOT ingrained in men. Surely most men are pro-woman! Surely most men find rape repugnant! Surely Andrea Dworkin was a dumbass who was wrong!
C’MON! THROW ME A BONE! WHERE ARE THE GOOD MEN?!
This is disheartening hearing about how MASSIVE the problem is and how it’s everywhere and how even good progressive men are slime!
Don’t get me wrong; I’m glad it’s coming out and I’m glad that finally the trash is being cleared but I’m just disheartened at how BIG it is and I wonder….
Are there ANY good men in this world….anywhere?
Jessica Valenti is of the opinion that abusive behaviour is inherent in ‘success’.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/04/sexual-harassers-rise-ranks-red-flag
@ LaurieIG
I do have an example of the issues you raise about abuse of children. I’m very conscious though that this is a subject that’s really upsetting for a lot of readers here; especially in the current context. So perhaps you’ll forgive me if maybe we wait until there’s another thread open some time so people aren’t forced to listen to an ‘academic’ discussion about a subject that’s far from academic for them?
I need a list of famous men who are true feminists who are genuine and who are disgusted by sexual abuse!
Why?
@kupo
Because I need to know that being a sexual abuser isn’t really in men’s DNA.
….When I heard about Takei molesting that guy….
….When I hear about other guys known for being Feminist, Progressive, Anti-Harassment, etc. turning out to being harassers and pigs, themselves….
….When I hear how MASSIVE the amount of freaky-males there are….
….I need to know that men are still good, kind, just, Feminist, etc.
….I NEED TO KNOW THAT MEN ARE NOT RAPISTS BY NATURE!
When even the “good men” are “bad men”, who can you trust? Is there a way to tell?
As a woman; This scares me!
I mean, there are definitely lots of genuinely good men in the world – though mind you, ‘genuinely good’ does not mean ‘not flawed.’ We’re all inherently flawed beings. But, even though I struggle a lot with trust issues, I can promise you that there are good men. Granted, it took me a pretty damn long time to realize that…
Unfortunately, a lot of celebrities do horrible shit, possibly because the culture of celebrity worship enables them to get away with it. I really don’t give much of a damn about most famous people. That said, I would be very disappointed if allegations were made against, say, Stephen Colbert or Conan O’Brien. I’m hoping to hear them both explicity denounce Louis CK. I expect that a lot of comedians will make excuses and ‘stand by’ Louis because of his huge influence in so many of their careers.
@Spukikitty
There are plenty of men like that. You know that.
As for celebrities – there’s only one list of the type you want and, if you’ll forgive a bit of religion popping in, the keeper of it don’t talk out of turn.
@SpukiKitty
Even if all powerful men turned out to be rapists that doesn’t mean it’s some trait men are born with. Very few men are powerful. It just means that our system is set up to reward vile behavior, especially in men.
@Kupo
Often wondered if the system rewards vile behaviour – or causes it. Seems like most politicians (for example) that get caught out pulling shady/nasty shit didn’t start out that way. A lot of them started out genuinely wanting to do good and being almost painfully honest.
Anyway, it’s an aside. Doesn’t matter.
Men are not rapists by nature. Take it from a trans guy.
But celebrities and politicians and other powerful men? Eh…don’t expect to find much hope there.
Men are rapists by nurture. That’s what rape culture means.
Nobody is “good” or “bad.” People are taught to be what their culture expects them to be, to varying degrees.
I don’t think I know many, if any, men who have not committed some level of sexual abuse at some point. The “good ones” I know of are the ones who did it when they were teenagers and figured out how fucked up it was early.
Maybe I should just accept that “CELEBRITY” men are not normal men and that they are mostly “fake feminists” and rapists and don’t represent men as a whole.
Okay; The above statement was a bit stupid but it’s just disheartening.
We women are struggling for equality and we NEED some famous male allies to give the movement some cred. Every movement needs allies from the privileged group in order to get some traction.
All the famous men known for being Progressive, feminist, open-minded, etc. are suddenly turning out to be pigs. I’m hearing about George Takei, Josh Whedon and others who have turned out to be gross.
It makes me paranoid at who could be next. If I were to find out that an absolute sweetheart like David Tennant turned out to be a monster, I’ll really “lose it”!
*sigh* George Takei was an awesome ally for Progressivism, LGBTQ Rights, Civil Rights, Feminism and an all-around awesome, witty guy and it tears me up inside to hear that he once drugged and raped a guy. If Takei is capable of such evil, who else would be?
It really shakes up one’s faith in humanity and human males. I almost wish I was a lesbian.
********
I know all males tend to be socialized to be piggos at one point and I don’t deny that most males have had their “moments” but when I hear that even bona-fide ALLIES are capable of rape and sexual abuse, I die inside.
I hope that, if Takei did do it, it was only once and that he deeply regrets it.
Alan – thank you, I’ll look forward to that.
“It makes me paranoid at who could be next. If I were to find out that an absolute sweetheart like David Tennant turned out to be a monster, I’ll really ‘lose it’!”
Thing is…you probably don’t actually know that Mr. Tennant truly is an absolute sweetheart. Not for certain. That’s the whole “filtered and idealized false reality” thing.
It might not be your faith in men that’s being shaken, but in celebrity. And that’s a good faith to lose, honestly.
Men who understand and value enthusiastic consent absolutely exist.
That’s true. I don’t know him personally. He could be swell and could be gross.
I guess I was overreacting. I was just getting over the shock concerning George Takei. I am aware of the phenomenon of the “Fake Male Feminist” and considering some of Josh Whedon’s oeuvre, I should’ve known what he really thought of women, anyway.
Also; If you’re a male AND famous, you’re probably expected to be a pig even if you started out as a decent guy.
Finally; I am certain that our dear David Futrelle, Mammoth-man extraordinaire, is a true feminist and a gentleman.
In regards to actors; Perhaps it’s better to root-for or “crush” on the characters they play rather than the people playing them. The characters are not real and if said characters are noble, you can love them and they’ll be what you think they are. Actors and characters are two different things….
….EXAMPLE: Bill Cosby is pure slime but Cliff Huxtable is cool.
….In other words; The actor is irrelevant. The character is who to “feel” for. The actor is a mere vehicle.
Thus; One can still enthuse over the awesomeness of Hikaru Sulu while disregarding George Takei.
(That said; I’m more of a Star Wars person, myself)
I feel for people having trouble processing this.
Imagine it only just struck you that it is as pervasive a problem as people told you it was.
Even if it happens to you, you were only OK about it because of how rare you believed what you lived through was.
What was said to some of us when we came forward? How much of that gets internalized?
Then: What if rapists really do look like everyone else?
What if 1 in 10 to 12 men really are dangerous, especially to femme perceived people?
What if it doesn’t matter what your body looks like or what you wear? What if everywhere you ever work, everywhere you ever go, no matter how you carry your keys, you and everyone like you is going to run into these men again and again and the world has decided that’s OK.
I was upset when I finally realized too.
“I hope that, if Takei did do it, it was only once and that he deeply regrets it.”
In the Howard stern bit, he responds to a question about whether he’s ever groped someone against their will by admitting, without shame or apology, to groping men who were nervous and afraid to have sex with him as a means of “persuasion,” in a manner that was “not gentle.” It’s highly unlikely that it only happened once.
Best-case scenario, he’s in deep denial about the predatory nature of his patterns and that denial extends to him blanking on the event once it was presented from the survivor’s POV. Worst (and more likely) case, he’s knowingly lying when he denies it.
“Finally; I am certain that our dear David Futrelle, Mammoth-man extraordinaire, is a true feminist and a gentleman.”
I’m not.
I just know that he’s doing good work here. There’s really no way to know anything beyond that.
Lea –
Yeah. It’s a fucker of a thing to realize. I’ve had that realization in layers, seems like there’s always another one to go…
Do you think that all men (even guys who are otherwise nice decent, normally non-rapey ones) who become famous are encouraged to be sexual predators as a means to achieve success? Like a sort of “reverse-casting couch”? Is that the only way showbiz men can get by?
I mean; There are plenty of guy who are actors and such. Surely an desire to act, make movies and create new worlds shouldn’t automatically mean one’s a sexual predator.
What about all the guys who want to act, sing, direct, etc. who aren’t sexual predators?
Is big-time showbiz culture like “Hey, dude; If you want to get ahead, you must be a groping perv or else, no stardom for you!”?
Anyway; I’m still happy that all this is finally coming out in the open and hopefully sweeping changes are afoot (ugly as the revelations and the extent of it all is).
On the subject of reporting rape and sexual assault:
We CANNOT report if we have been taught to protect our rapists. Girls and women are told all the time not to ‘ruin his future’. Many of us are raped by bfs and husbands and have to protect ourselves, our children and our rapists from the shame and disgust of public exposure.
I was raped by a bf when I was 19. I didn’t call it rape for many years. When a friend called it that I was very reluctant to accept it. I didn’t want to acknowledge it, even years after I last saw him.
Fortunately I do not remember the assault itself, but I remember very clearly the sick fear of me saying no, and him saying he was going to do it anyway. I made the decision not to struggle based on the reality of not standing a physical chance, and not being able to bear the thought that he would actually physically force me. I did not know for sure but I knew I couldn’t bear to find out.
In retrospect I expect it would have been exciting for him to have forced me. My fear was obviously arousing to him, so I am *glad* that I did not struggle and give him more to enjoy.
The reason I give this account is to show the horrible ambiguity that is often our experience when we are assaulted by someone who supposedly cares for us. We NEVER report these incidents, and they are probably the most common.
I realise my previous comment is a bit OT but the ‘why don’t they report’ thing always bothers me because it is so fucking obvious to me – we have too much to lose.
SpukiKitty – I’m going to guess it has a lot more to do with the fact that people who succeed in high-powered, highly competitive fields have a greater personal sense of entitlement than average, and the fact that once you have fame and power and prestige, you start having the ability to surround yourself with enablers who will consistently treat you as though you can do no wrong.
About the stardom:
I think it is much more easy than this. People who are famous have power. They seem to be imune from consequences. So they can do what they want. I think the creepycase are as simple as that.
About all men:
Don’t lose sense of scale. We have a handful of cases. How many actors are there in Hollywood? There must be plenty of non-predators left.
That some of them could foul us. Well, what exactly is there job again?
Perhaps I am to optimistic and I am not female, but normal not monsters do exist, never forget that.
@Brlmy the Social Justice Cenobite
“My name is a reflection of my first fandom and it’s convenient bait for aggressive people intolerant for deviation from gender norms, the rest is that demon thing, my favorite horror series and mockery of “SJW”. I’m symbolically obsessed.”
I actually thought I would be the only one with a fandom name because of my childlike (immature ) nature (joking). It’s one of my fandoms too although Pokemon seems to be bigger with me (just never search nidoqueen with the safe search off). Hellraiser I’ll assume for cenobite. Your symbolism is fun. Your research sounds fascinating as well