By David Futrelle
Leave it to the terrible excuses for human beings who populate the Incels subreddit to take victim blaming to its perverse extreme.
I’m not sure you really count as an “involuntary celibate” if you hold views so toxic that no women would even want to be in the same room as you.
@mrex
Is… is that not what that word means? Look, I’m not an expert on niceties by any stretch, but I’d have thought that my black ass taking time outta my black life to hold your white hand thru baby’s 1st institutional racism seminar would qualify as, if not strictly nice, at least nicer. Gimme some credit, Becky, damn…
<3 Axe
@Scildfreja
😉
Gonna give luck a bit of a hand, I hope. 😛
@WWTH
“You’re saying right here that feminists are advising women incorrectly. “
I’m not saying that it’s feminists that are advising women incorrectly, I’m saying that it’s feminists that are saying that advice is literally always inappropiate.
“Phrasing it like this is probably never going to go well because it implies that there is some set of behaviors that can keep us same from rape and if we don’t do these behaviors, than we are to blame.”
Blame is such the wrong word to be using here.
“In a thread where we’re discussing victim blaming, it isn’t appropriate to march in and say that maybe we should focus on victim behavior to prevent rape. Context is important.”
I think I admitted as much.
“I am sorry that you’re struggling with internalized victim blaming over your own assault.”
Wow, just wow. I’m speechless.
@Axe
“Look, I’m not an expert on niceties by any stretch, but I’d have thought that my black ass taking time outta my black life to hold your white hand thru baby’s 1st institutional racism seminar would qualify as, if not strictly nice, at least nicer.
Good point! Too bad that we didn’t go more into baby’s first institutional racism seminar, and instead argued nonstop about whether or not every working class white, a population larger than most the European countries represented here, are actual victims of classism, and not all whiny Nazis to be mocked if they find starving problematic.
Think I would have actually learned something in baby’s first institutional racism seminar.
Unlike you, I read, and I know what you said and I was addressing exactly what you said. Not what you intended, or what you imagine that you said. I was addressing what anyone who can scroll back two pages can see for themselves.
No need to paraphrase what you imagine in your head that I interpreted your words to be. I never gave an interpretation. That is entirely your invention. You’ve been inventing a shitload of messages from me as though I’ve been saying a bunch of nonsense which I have not actually said. The problem with trying to gaslight me (or readers, maybe) is that anyone can scroll up and see that I did not, for instance, advise you to ask people what they intended. Or that I did not, in fact, interpret some meaning into your plain-English words.
So are you intentionally trying to gaslight readers, or is that unconscious? Or are you maybe genuinely responding to imaginary things that I didn’t say? You needn’t answer – I’m just throwing out theories.
I’ve made absolutely no attempt to hide what I think of you, in this thread or any other. That is just another invention of yours that you’re projecting onto me.
Does any of the long-time readers of WHTM remember Ruby Hypatia? That’s who mrex reminds me of.
@mrex
I wonder why we didn’t…
I wonder why we didn’t…
I wonder why we didn’t…
The reason you didn’t learn anything, and the reason you think I didn’t give that seminar, is that you weren’t paying attention. You said just upthread that you’re more willing to listen to me cos I’m black. I knew this was bullshit when I first read that (you’re white, y’all don’t listen to us as a general rule), but, if I ever needed proof…
@Jesalin, PeeVee, ShadowPlay, thank you! I’m not really thinking about what to do about him as my MP just yet. Too upset about the fact he’s there right now.
@mrex et. al.
First: I think that you were sincere and of good intentions in your original post, but reacted badly to the fact that it didn’t come across as you had hoped. I haven’t weighed in on the conversation because I didn’t think there was much I could do to help it settle.
Then you posted this:
May I reply to this one, Axe?
Axe says “I held your hand to actually engage with you about racism, that was me giving you a kindness” and your reply is “it’s a shame you didn’t actually do that, I might have learned something, and gosh ain’t it a shame all these people can’t see the Nazis are just economically anxious”?
That’s where we’re going?
I don’t often get sour on here, I try to avoid it, but you stepped up to Axe, and I take special offense. When he gives one of his babby’s-first-institutional-racism-seminars, I’m first in fucking line and I say thank you when he’s done; I don’t sass about how it wasn’t actually all that helpful. Let me be clear:
Minorities have no duties to white people to educate them about racism.
Classist issues – which no one here denies – in no way absolve or excuse white peoples’ racist tendencies.
Complaining about a black person not sufficiently engaging you in the terms that you want is nothing more than another expression of racism.
Look, Mrex, I understand that white people are harmed by class issues too. We all are. We all know this. We all understand it. Heck, most of us live it. But we also understand that our poverty and the class-based injustices are no excuse for behaving poorly. The two aren’t connected. A racist will always find an excuse for their racism, regardless of their bank account.
Being poor does not make one vulnerable to hate. Being hateful makes one vulnerable to hate.
Axe deserves so much better than to be used as a bludgeon to go after the commenters you’re arguing with.
Besides, Axe ain’t a bludgeon, he’s a fuckin’ axe
We have had multiple people in direct response to you give you direct examples of when they believe it would be appropriate to discuss such things, and in fact when they have discussed such things.
I’m also confused of the constant false dichotomy that Mrex is always presenting between voting anti-racist and voting pro-economic equality. Since when did poor people of any color do better under Republican governors or presidents? It’s not a choice between poor white people being starving and jobless or people of color being treated as human beings. It never was. That’s why the economic anxiety excuse rings hollow.
@kupo + Scild
Hearts 🙂
Sure thing, and well done 😀
Guest lecturer: Scildfreja Unnydnes! (oh, and so fuckin help me if @mrex suddenly understands this now a white person has explained it)
Definitely #notyourshield at any rate 😛
Schild and Axe,
?????
That is all.
@Axe,
Your patience is the only reason I feel confident saying anything about it at all, you! <3
I feel bad about piling on. I mean, I don't think mrex has bad intentions. Just blind spots, and we all have those. I mean jees, as if that isn't the number-one-problem, though. Like, in general.
I have written like five paragraphs here and then deleted them all because my ideas are a jumblemess right now. I have not eaten since this time yesterday, so I should do that instead!
<3
Yup. I always advocate that women follow their gut and not be afraid of leaving a situation that feels wrong for fear of seeming rude. Or not trusting a man that displays red flags or sets off the creepdar because it’s mean or because others assure her that he’s harmless/nice. To me that’s more useful than the typical safety tips because most rape is not stranger rape. As much as our culture loves to give rape prevention tips, it also loves to guilt and gaslight women into trusting predators. Rape prevention tips that only regulate women’s behavior are accepted. Rape prevention tips that inconvenience men by letting us know that it’s okay to refuse to let down our boundaries for them is evil feminazi shit.
Of course, that’s also not foolproof. Someone might have a creepdar that’s not that great for various reasons. Or a rapist may be a skilled enough manipulator to not throw up any red flags at all. Even the best and most well intended advice has limited use.
Ultimately, alcohol and drugs don’t cause rape. They are merely a tool that rapists use. The only way to avoid being raped for sure is to never be somewhere with someone who chooses to rape you. There’s nothing you can do that will guarantee that will never happen. This is why it’s more important to focus on teaching men what affirmative consent is, that they have to get it, and that rape is solely the fault of the rapist. That’s the rape prevention that truly works. See the success of that Don’t be That Guy campaign that the MRAs hated so much.
I really like this motto:
Because it’s hard to do, but I have to remember to do so. You can hang up the phone, you can close the door, you can leave a conversation without being polite. If someone is making you or a friend uncomfortable, Fuck Politeness and get out of there.
okay.. 1 ghb tastes lightly salty up to alkaline. But GBL, the liquid form tates.. its weird, the more you drink the worse it tastes- but at the beginning it doesn’t taste strong.. It’s like ghb, can taste mildly soapy and bitter.
You would need less gbl to get someone to be strongly intoxicated, so that may be why you tasted the salt.
then you have benzodiazepines- which in combination with alcohol have a far stronger effect. They taste bitter. There are some you can get in drop or as sublingual plates which is problematic because at least for normal pills you may have residue of non-solvable filler material as sediment on the bottom of the glass.
BZP are also relevant because they have a far longer duration and are very good detectable, while GHB gets broken down by your metabolism very fast and the duration usually should be not so long- like people who take it as a drug report around 4 hour duration, maybe 6-8 if you arent used to it.
For Ghb you need dedicated testing and YOU NEED IT FAST because after 8 hours most of it will be out of your systems and the metabolites are not specific for ghb/gbl
There are also so called z-benzodiazepines, which are similar but not the same. they taste horrible, disgusting, metallic which may be the reason asshole-rapists don’t use them because if you take them you taste them.
well and alcohol is ofc also a date rape drug- in the UK they tested for a while -every person who came in for intoxication and said they fear someone had slipped sth into their drink were tested for the usual drugs.
Afaik not a single person was drugged- all just had alcohol intoxication and so its important to see that it can very well happen that your tolerance changed- like if you get ill or have not eaten enough can lead to a person getting shitfaced from a dose that’s lower than they can usually take..
So also be wary of alcohol bc that can be mean.
“The reason you didn’t learn anything, and the reason you think I didn’t give that seminar, is that you weren’t paying attention.”
Perhaps. When I took a break to think things over, I eventually realized that you and me weren’t having the same conversation. At least I don’t think we were.
Or perhaps, this is all just because I am so deeply racist that I literally can’t see what you’re saying.
Either way, I plan on continuing with my reading and learning on institutional racism. Someday I will be better, Axe. Promise.
You said just upthread that you’re more willing to listen to me cos I’m black. I knew this was bullshit when I first read that (you’re white, y’all don’t listen to us as a general rule), but, if I ever needed proof…
Well, I actually listened to you. I mostly rolled my eyes at the white posters.
“Definitely #notyourshield at any rate ?”
Exhibit #9371 of my white privilege is that I didn’t even think that I was doing that when I name dropped you.
@schild
“That’s where we’re going?
No. In particular, “and gosh ain’t it a shame all these people can’t see the Nazis are just economically anxious”?” is not where I was going. The Nazi’s are not automatically economically anxious whites. Most importantly, economically anxious whites are not automtically Nazis.
You’re… Candian? Correct?
What are the biases against working class whites in Canada?
In the US, poor whites are maligned as racists. Automatically. *ALL* factory workers, all 10s of millions of them, are racist. Automatically. It’s a classist bias. It took me a while to put in words just why I got so upset whenever someone said “economic anxiety” and racism in the same sentence.
And before someone runs in, whining, that I’m so meaaaaan for saying that they’re (unintentionally) classist; suck it the fuck up.
“I think that you were sincere and of good intentions in your original post, but reacted badly to the fact that it didn’t come across as you had hoped.”
There’s no way for me to win, or even draw. There will never be a meeting of minds here, between me or anyone else. If I’m going to lose, if it’s a foregone conclusion, then I will lose on my terms. Swinging and flaming out the asshole.
So… you admit to being a troll?
Look, you yourself admitted that you came in here with a confrontational attitude without reading the room to see if that was going to go over well.
It was on you to make amends for that and earn a second chance. You didn’t do that. You carried on picking fights. You’re proving now that everyone who was reluctant to read your posts charitably and assume good faith was right to not trust you.
@Axe
“Exhibit #9371 of my white privilege is that I didn’t even think that I was doing that when I name dropped you.”
By this I meant that I’m such a dumb privileged fuck that I didn’t even consider it a possibility. Because privilege.
I’ll agree you’re an asshole, mrex, whatever reasons you are excusing your actions for being so.
Every time you make an appearace here, you say something patently absurd, and then claim victimization when people rightly correct you. This then goes on for pages. This is boring as fucking hell, and it is tiring to watch.
At this point, it is not a bug, but a feature. It is your MO. Knock it the fuck OFF already.
Mrex, I think I’ve said this before, but you really need to stop doing a couple of things:
1) Stop taking criticism of your words as criticism of you. When we go after your assertions and call them ridiculous we’re not calling you ridiculous. I know it’s really hard to do and all the advice I can give you is what I learned working for over a decade in service: let them be angry, remind yourself that they’re not angry at you, and when they’re done being angry and you’ve listened to the whole thing, pull out the bits you have control over, repeat them back to make sure you’re on the same page, and work together on how to fix the problem.
2) Stop making everything black and white. If someone asks you not to bring up what a victim could have done differently in a thread, don’t characterize that as “I can never talk about how to avoid being raped.” When someone tells you that the exit polls show most Trump voters did so for racist, rather than economic reasons, despite your arguments that factory workers are worried about their jobs, that doesn’t mean all factory workers are racists.
@WWTH
Girl really.
“So… you admit to being a troll?”
No.
If society focuses on trying to change a victim a predator will simply adapt to the change in some manner. So not only do they get “advice”, it’s “advice” that pressures victims and potential victims into doing work. This is a lazy, callous, counterproductive, and bigoted way for the social dynamics to be structured (and other negative characteristics).
Things that increase safety are ok, but society must put explicit social emphasis on confronting the social predator and it needs a better instinct for how people sexually prey in practice. Safety should not be that kind of social response.
Having grown up white in the United States, my approach to seeing racism in other white people is like seeing right handedness. Until I see someone using their left hand for something, I assume they’re right handed.
Fortunately for me, I live in an environment that makes that easier and safer than it is in many other areas.
Part of my perspective is affected by the fact that both of my husbands have been MOC, and both of my sons are Black. Maintaining those relationships while retaining the racism I grew up with would have been far more work than I was willing to do, so unlearning the racism became a priority.
I think for some people, hearing ‘what you did/said was racist/sexist/homophobic’ translates as ‘you are a Bad Person, and you should feel bad’.
This is a good point. And here’s the thing: if I’m part of the targeted group (women, for example), it’s far too much work and too dangerous to correct someone so I only do that with people i trust. So while my motivation is “I love you and trust you and want to help you be better,” they hear “you’re a terrible person.” I’ll have to think about how to make my motivations clearer going forward.