By David Futrelle
Leave it to the terrible excuses for human beings who populate the Incels subreddit to take victim blaming to its perverse extreme.
I’m not sure you really count as an “involuntary celibate” if you hold views so toxic that no women would even want to be in the same room as you.
@IP
“Um. You just stated the definition of victim blaming. That is what victim blaming is.”
How can I be victim blaming, when the victim I’m “blaming” there is myself, and the “blame” consists entirely of “gee I wish I knew this beforehand, because I may not have been raped, and it really would have been nice to have skipped that whole ordeal”.
See, this is what I’m talking about. I admit that I came here and was too interested in “debate” and “playing the devil’s advocate” in the past. That’s not the culture here, and that’s cool. I admit that I have an incredible ability to shove my foot in my mouth. I even admit that I’m a giant asshole.
But while I’m expected to not assume what others are thinking, and have empathy, and all other good advice, I’m treated with the worst possible assumptions, and I have to try to crawl on eggshells and try to play psychic so that I’m not misinterperted.
Today, there’s too much other shit going on, and I’m not having it. I came here for one reason- to have a nice little conversation about misogyny and distract myself from all the other shit. If you want to focus on talking about misogyny, then great! (Please do please do please do). If you want to insult me by how I’m such an asshole that I feel sorry for incels, then I’m not in the mood for playing anyone’s stupid little punching bag today. Don’t swing and I won’t. Promise. Keep swinging and I will. Promise.
Plus you can get garden variety advice like “don’t accept a drink from a stranger” or “have a buddy system with friends when you go out” anywhere on the internet. There’s not much of a point in demanding they be discussed in feminist spaces because a. we’ll have already heard these tips a million times before and b. feminist spaces are not explicitly crime prevention spaces and when we discuss rape it’s typically either a more advanced discussion about rape culture or it’s people sharing their own personal experiences. Either way, not so appropriate to bring up crime avoidance tips.
Mrex: in the linked thread, you were concentrating on ways to be the ‘strongest gazelle’ who would be able to avoid being raped.
I don’t know what you’ve said elsewhere, so i will concentrate on this.
There are some pretty obvious problems with this statement.
You are concentrating on the gazelles, the prey, and not the lions. While i don’t believe that gazelles are victims of lions (carnivores need to eat!) I do believe that women are victims of men. (Statistically, there are obviously more permutations of this, but this is the current argument/topic.)
Saying that we could be discussing ways to be the strongest gazelle ignores the fact that, perhaps, the lions can just not attack us. Afterall, we are humans and they don’t need sex to survive.
Saying ‘yes, but they DO attack us! We don’t live in a perfect society yet, how do we, as potential victims, minimise our chances of rape?’ Is foolish. You know how, i know how.
TW for victim blaming.
-don’t drink. Don’t get drunk. Don’t drink in public spaces. Don’t get drunk in public spaces. Don’t drink around strangers. Don’t be drunk around strangers. Don’t drink around male friends. Don’t be drunk around male friends. Don’t go over to someone’s house and drink. Don’t be drunk at someone’s house. Don’t be visibly drunk on the street. Don’t take a cab. Don’t take an uber. Don’t.
-watch your drink. Don’t leave it alone.
-navigate every social interaction with a man perfectly. Smile the exact right amount to not make him angry. Don’t smile too much, and give him ideas. Don’t tease or laugh too much, were you flirting? Don’t give him a real number, obviously you were interested in him.
-don’t walk (even sober) around late at night. Don’t be on quiet streets. Don’t be on dark streets.
-always say no, even when you’ve frozen up in fear because is he going to kill you? They say for you to not fight, so at least you’ll survive.
-wear the right clothing to please men (because, as a society we want women to be pleasing for men) but not slutty clothing. Showing your breasts? Your legs? Dressing in a way that makes you feel empowered or pretty or sexy or you just like it? Don’t do that.
-wear sexy enough clothes, if you don’t you might get harassed anyway. If you are attacked, obviously your BEHAVIOUR was what lead him to think you wanted it.
-text your friends that you made it home, un-raped. (Because that is what you are doing.)
-don’t have sex with him, now he thinks you’re always down for it. Do have sex with him, he’s a nice guy. He wouldn’t do that.
-navigate every convoluted, no win scenario perfectly. Follow contradictory rules. Double-think (double-act?) To please all the varied expextations you’ll find for presenting as a woman in public.
In conclusion: WE KNOW HOW TO BE THE STRONGER GAZELLE. What do you think rape prevention has always focused on? THIS TOPIC.
It doesn’t do any good, because you can’t be perfect enough to perfect yourself out of ever being a victim. ESPECIALLY if you are a minority of some description, dealing with being a woman + all the other possible things to be discriminated against by.
No one wants to discuss it because we are tired of being told we need to be perfect by following these simple, totally straight forward, rules. If we are attacked, what did we do wrong??
Mrex, the very best case scenario is that when you came into a thread to gently suggest that maybe Muslim women wouldn’t be attacked as much if they just never interacted with the outside world, you didn’t bother to read any of the conversation that was happening 2 posts above yours; and in the 15-ish months since, you were so deep into the self-absorption that we cis people like to indulge in that you never managed to correct your faulty impression of IP’s gender, despite their frequent presence on the site. This… is not a very good best case scenario.
But this kind of thing is why people make the worst assumptions. You come into a thread and either pick a fight on purpose or say something that looks bad and then insist you meant something else entirely which we all should’ve been able to pick up on because reasons. Then you lay the guilt on trip on people for responding to the things you said.
Why do men get to drink in public and walk down dark streets and look sexy and smile and be flirty but women are told never to do those things with the threat of rape to keep us in line?
Also shit, i didn’t say that i am sorry to hear you were hurt, mrex. That’s terrible, no one should go through that. Thank you for sharing your story.
Letting people know that ‘hey, date rape drugs can taste of something’ is good information to pass on. Asking if anyone else has information that contradicts common knowlege is also maybe good, in an appropriate dicussion thread.
It is a fine line to walk, so that it is giving info and not just blaming people for not knowing better. Not all threads would be the right place for it.
Is crawling on egg shells anything like stepping on Legos? Because if it is, I think that might be an excellent idea.
@Rhuu
Yes, that’s all terrible advice. Most of the advice on rape is written by men. If it was discussed by women, in a feminist context, it might actually be realistic.
Or, at the very least, the very blatent falsehood that date rape drugs are tasteless may be thrown about less.
TW: rape
Don’t tell me about victim blaming. When it happened, I was out with an ex. I remember very very little about what happened that night, but when I woke up the next morning, I was home alone. I was violently ill. He called me up and asked, “what happened”. I said I didn’t know. He said “you were drugged, you weren’t drinking booze, you should have watched your drink.” He then berated me for the next hour, maybe?
The last thing I clearly remember is that my drink tasted salty. I thought, “huh, that’s weird, but I’ve been watching my drink, and date rape drugs are tastless, anyway”.
Turns out that GHB is salty. I actually think that it was him that drugged me, although I have no proof.
@mrex – That is awful, and I’m sorry that happened to you. I don’t know your situation, of course, but it’s strange that your ex didn’t have your back and try to keep you safe that night, and instead called and berated you the next day. Seems like a red flag (but then, he is your ex).
Nthing what Rhuu said – there’s too much magical thinking that goes on with rape prevention. Bottom line is, nobody deserves it. Nobody brings it on themselves because they were too careless, or too foolish. Trying to outrun the other gazelles is problematic, for many reasons.
Because focusing on what the victim was doing, wearing, or saying blurs the edges of consent, and blurs the definition of rape. It implies that the woman did something to attract the attention of the rapist.
Because sex is viewed transactional instead of a mutually enjoyable activity, so therefore anything women do, from going to a bar to wearing a skirt to walking down the sidewalk, is viewed as signing the dotted line on the contract.
Because women’s default desire for sex is assumed to be “yes” until proven otherwise.
Because that’s what rapey men want to hear, and it’s what they tell themselves.
Of course there are things you can do individually to lower your odds of being a target, but it doesn’t guarantee you never will be one. And there will always be women who are in harm’s way, who are unable to protect themselves, who are the unlucky gazelles caught out in the open, and the predator’s gaze will move on to them. Until men step up and acknowledge that they are the ones responsible for rape and change their attitudes and behaviors around sex, what women do is never going to be enough.
@Viscaria
“you were so deep into the self-absorption that we cis people like to indulge in that you never managed to correct your faulty impression of IP’s gender, despite their frequent presence on the site.”
I don’t like IP very much, and I tend to skip their posts.
Which excuses literally nothing.
@Buttercup
“Of course there are things you can do individually to lower your odds of being a target, but it doesn’t guarantee you never will be one. And there will always be women who are in harm’s way, who can’t protect themselves. Until men step up and acknowledge that they are the ones responsible for rape and change predatory attitudes and behaviors, what women do is never going to be enough.”
Yes THIS. I do not believe that women should be blamed. I fo not think they are at fault.
But I also think that feminists owe it to women to make sure that they’re actually basing their risk assessments on reality. Unlike what I did.
And where have feminists advised that women be completely careless? Because the only time I see that advise around here is from the trolls who are trying to act like rapists are only lurking trench coated monsters in dark alleys.
There’s a pretty big difference between pushing back on the idea that “you shouldn’t have done ____ if you didn’t want to raped” and saying it’s a great idea for women to be cavalier about our safety. I suspect you know this.
I must be doing something right.
I will say only short thing.
victim blaming so dangerous because already you are blamed when something happen to you and then after society blames you again and again.
every time there is new assault or something like Harvey winestain, again you must to listen to society blame you. you listen to strangers saying exactly same like your friends say or your boss say or police say. and it feel like everywhere people thinking same and you are so alone.
so how can any persons who is victim of assault ever heal their mind? they can not! not in this environment. you see the rapist get protected, get benefit of doubt and you feel worthless.
no other victims treated like this but victim of sexual assault and rape.
@Valentin – which makes rape one of the most underreported crimes (because why bother), which makes the victims feel even more isolated and silenced, which does little to deter it happening again. And so the cycle goes.
@IP – I always read your posts at least twice, so maybe that makes up for it?
@WWTH – yep. Just World might be a fallacy, but that doesn’t mean we should give up trying to make the world less randomly cruel.
@Scildfreja – so sorry to hear the Darkness has reached your neck of the woods. Ugh. It undermines trust in your neighbors, wondering which of them secretly voted for him. How long is his term?
@Buttercup
I already read my own posts to make sure I haven’t said anything exceedingly stupid. With your help, I am now being read much more than necessary! Thank you. 🙂
@WWTH
Where did I say that feminists promote women being careless with their safety? I don’t think that we promote that. What I did say, is that throwing *every* discussion about what women need to do to avoid rape out as “victim blaming”, is throwing the baby out with the bath water, since it prevents misinformation from being corrected.
There is no thread here, at any time, where I could have said, “Hey lets talk about how women can stay safe from rape”. I would be called victim blamer. I would be told that the discussion doesn’t need to happen, because “women aren’t stupid”, like only stupid people hear misinformation. Literally no-one would stop and think, “hey maybe mrex has a REASON to think the way she does”. The discussion would be just “blerg blerg TROLL blerg”.
How do I know this would happen? Because it’s happening right now.
I think if you said this one people would say this place is for more complex discussion and for mockery of all things David posts about.
if someone come and say, I am interested what I can do to stay safe, I believe most people here have plenty good info. many people talk about self defence here. about how to be assertive.
for example i could say ‘hi I am going on ship next week and I have bad history with captain there because of previous incident with sexual assalt. is there advise what I can do for safe trip?’ and I know so many people here happy to help!
no one will call you victim blamed for ask advise – because that is victim blaming!
edit : also I agree with what kupo said. this also not 100% place for that.
That’s because this site focuses on the vile hate groups of the manosphere. If you want to discuss these things, maybe look to a feminist education site like Everyday Feminism? But be warned, the way you phrase things you’ll probably have a hard time getting your intentions across there, too.
When you post here, you’re necessarily taking a thread about what pieces of shit some specific men are with regards to their views on women and rape and turning it into what their victims could have done differently, and that’s not something we will ever tolerate.
Edit: Also what Valya says is true. We can’t read minds and if you’re truly looking for advice then just say that. Instead you talk about others and what they could do differently and that’s taken poorly for what should be obvious reasons.
@Buttercup, thank you. They don’t vote for this sort of nonsense secretly, though, they’re right out in the open. This is where Rebel Media is from after all. So yeah, I haven’t trusted my neighbours to not be jerks for years now.
I really gotta get out of here 😐
At least the Liberals kicked a Conservative out of Quebec, which is fantastic! Quebec is closest to flipping away from the CPC, and it was in an area considered part of their “heartland” in the east. They’ve got no realistic hope of winning Alberta, so on a strategic level the by-elections turned out great. Just not so great on a personal level.
We don’t have set election days or terms, just a maximum of five years. However, this was a by-election, because the previous MP resigned. So it’ll be whenever the next Federal election happens, which has to be in 2020 at the latest – the guess is that there’ll be a late 2019 election, at which point all the seats are up for grabs.
With luck this asshole will have made such an embarrassment of himself that he won’t go for re-election, cause I know that he’ll have a fourty year career otherwise.
Should mail him a tiki torch as a congratulation gift.
Oh, the Chaos Queen is here. Glory.
@Schildfreja, sorry about your election. I live in a *very* red state, and I know how disheartening it is.
“Fastest gazelle” is a zero-sum game. In the long run we have to figure out how to reduce the number of men who turn into rapists. This probably means changing how boys are raised in our society/ies.
@Buttercup
“Don’t be an asshole”, should be the first commandment in any religion.
@Scildfreyja
Oh bloody hell, that sucks!
I can scroll up and see what you said before. You know that, right?
You’re saying right here that feminists are advising women incorrectly. If that’s not what you’re meaning to say, than what are you meaning to say here?
Total fucking bullshit. Phrasing it like this is probably never going to go well because it implies that there is some set of behaviors that can keep us same from rape and if we don’t do these behaviors, than we are to blame. But there have been plenty of threads where people manage to talk about the things they do to try and keep themselves safe. I can’t count the number of times I’ve posted about how I assume that men who either ignore boundaries no matter small they small or engage in any kind of rape apologia go in the possible rapist category and I deem them unsafe to be alone with. The difference is, I don’t say that if a woman dismisses red flags – because we are socialized to put niceness and politeness ahead of our own safety concerns – and she trusts a man who ends up raping her that she isn’t a strong gazelle like me. There are plenty of threads in which the topic is about some men getting a sad because we’re creep shaming meany pants in which it is entirely appropriate to state your safety strategies and how you won’t apologize for them. In a thread where we’re discussing victim blaming, it isn’t appropriate to march in and say that maybe we should focus on victim behavior to prevent rape. Context is important.
I am sorry that you’re struggling with internalized victim blaming over your own assault. But that does make it okay for you to take that out on us. If you want to wank about how opposing victim blaming means feminists are to blame for rape, go to AVFM or the red pill subreddit and do it there. You’ll make lots of new friends I’m sure.