By David Futrelle
Leave it to the terrible excuses for human beings who populate the Incels subreddit to take victim blaming to its perverse extreme.
I’m not sure you really count as an “involuntary celibate” if you hold views so toxic that no women would even want to be in the same room as you.
While I understand the sentiment behind “better misogyny that’s out in the open than done furtively”, that doesn’t actually solve anything. All it does is legitimize the hatred and make it more acceptable and mainstream. See: 2017, massive increase in blatant hate crimes and street harassment during. I don’t feel any more at ease with proud boys screaming Nazi slogans in the streets of Charlottesville than I do with sly racist dogwhistles. In fact, I feel vastly more afraid when it’s out in the open like that, because it means they believe there’s absolutely zero social restraint on their vile beliefs (and it’s fast becoming clear that the legal restraints are paper thin). Without an agreed-upon social contract, the next step is Nazi punching, and it ratchets from there.
Incels should feel ashamed, not emboldened. They should scuttle back into their holes and think about their life choices. And we should continue to loudly call out misogyny and racism wherever we see it, whether it’s overt or subtle.
Z&T, I like the “Don’t be an asshole” mantra. Going to try to apply it more often.
@SFHC
I got instantly super tired of mrex and went to sleep. Thanks for saying it. I didn’t feel like bringing it up, since the mansplaining allegation was so ridiculous in the first place.
@Buttercup
Ok, I think I see where you’re coming from. I agree- this shit is fucking scary. It fucking sucks that we’re still stuck circling this drain in 2017. Fuck this.
The only thing that I can’t fully get 100% on board with is that misogynists being loud and proud doesn’t solve things. It may not actually literally SOLVE misogyny, but it does clear things up a bit. When things are covert, it’s easy to be gaslit, it’s easy to think, or be told, that you’re misreading, or exaggerating, or whatever, because dudebro is a NIIIIIIIICE GUY.
At least it’s clear what incels are; steaming piles of shit. I don’t think that it’s possible to make a reasonble argument that they’re anything but. It’s why-personal opinion- I find PUAs so much creepier than incels, since they seem like they are more likely to be functioning around women in a somewhat hidden way.
Personal Opinion.
I hate to be that person, but… even this is kinda weird. Why even bring up the possibility that SFHC might be lying.
Oh! Well, let’s look at this so-insulting thing I said in response to your question:
HUH.
There is literally no insult here. I didn’t even call you stupid: I said that the thing you said was stupid. And I criticized your behavior. Not you, what you did.
So I am left with only two possible options. Either you don’t read what I write and sub in some imaginary statement, or else you think that anything that doesn’t kiss your ass is an insult. Either way, I’m not reaching the conclusion that your expectations are reasonable, or that you’re capable of civil discourse. It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who doesn’t respond to what I write, but instead responds to some unpredictable alternate statement, and it’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who goes off at the most mild criticism.
IRONIES.
@IP
Because she has a such a long history of lying about literally everything that I say, that I assume that literally everything that she says needs to be run through a sniff test. But she’s pretty sly and smart about it. When she lies it’s always by suggestion, and always where she can’t be proven wrong.
I’m sorry that I misgendered you. Full stop.
I don’t think sfhc ever lie. actually they very straight-forward which I like because it is clear and easy to understand.
@POM
Oh? And the “stupid” thing that I said was supposedly that incels are OK! Or at least poor little dears. Excuse me if I find that extremely insulting.
And I know what you think of me. You may be able to hide behind words in this thread, but don’t think that I don’t see you.
@Valentin
Cool story. I actually agree that she is very articulate. Quick question, how do you know that she’s never lied, if you have no way of telling whether what she is lying about could possibly be true or not?
For example, go ahead and prove that I KNEW that IP was nonbinary when I, as she admitted, never misgendered before.
what you mean cool story?
doesn’t matter really if you know or not know, usually I use they instead of he or she just in case. important more not to judge on gender and listen what people say. of course, I can’t prove what you know or not know, but does not mean that sfhc lies, only they maybe see some evidence I did not seen, and believe that you will know IP is non-binary. I know IP non binary because they said it before.
generally I will say sfhc too straight forward maybe for some people, because they say exactly what they believe and this could intimidate some people.
when I first start comment here I experienced some disagreement, because my veiw about Russian hack story different from most people here, but i decide not to talk here about it because there manu other benefits on this website and community. and actually for while i start to see some evidence which different from my belief and my veiw of Russian hack story changes. I ask myself, how can I say i support to UA but then make this argument about Russia when I know what they capable? and then i see actually because i have strong love for russia because my family from Russia and maybe this influences my veiw.
what I mean, sometimes better to take step back for the short time and see what develop.
Just find it kinda interesting that mrex doesn’t know enough about me to know my gender identity, but they seemingly know enough about me to assume it.
and accuse of mansplaining -_-
because even men here who comment for long time comment, would try very hard to not mansplain. I am cis man and I already know this one and I was only here for 1 year.
@mrex
I don’t know what the hell is going on with you. You always say the worst thing, give the worst advice, and have the worst replies to everything. Just a few weeks ago you randomly accused me of being hostile to my sister-in-law. I just don’t get what your problem is, but can you stop making it everybody else’s problem too? We already have our own stuff to deal with. You deal with yours for a while now.
@mrex
Well, yes and no. Yes, in that it’s easier to see what you’re dealing with/easier to demonstrate its existence and have LONG overdue conversations, as a society, about how pervasive and toxic this shit is.
No, in that loud proud misogyny not only normalizes it, it actively amps up the vileness to a new level and makes it harder to combat. Trolls and attention-seekers try to outdo each other in viciousness. Others see it happening, and are encouraged to join in. Suddenly, the everyday “background” levels of sexism aren’t so noticeable any more.
I’m an old, and I don’t remember anywhere near this level of publicly accepted viciousness towards women in the ’70s and ’80s. Sure, there was a lot of eye-rolling condescension and disrespect, and a lot of institutional barriers, but there weren’t people with powerful media platforms openly calling for disenfranchisement and corrective rape. A candidate who said “grab them by the p*ssy” would have been instantly cast to perdition by the press. Back then, if, say, 1 in 1000 men harbored truly abhorrent, serial-killer-level beliefs about women, it was unlikely they would ever meet, much less form a club. If they wanted to promote their views, they were limited to hawking mimeographed newsletters on the street corner. Now sites like RoK and Reddit boast tens of thousands of members, with new recruits streaming in every day (because what’s easier to recruit than an angry young man seething with frustrated entitlement?). MRA crap regularly comes up at the top of Google searches, even for the most innocuous search terms. What kind of message do you suppose that sends to, say, a 14 year old girl innocently looking for advice on boys, or a 22 year old trying to get out of an abusive relationship?
Back then, it was mostly about fighting for equal employment, pay, and education. Now it’s all that plus trying to teach hordes of selfish, antisocial creeps that women are human, have bodily autonomy, and deserve basic civil rights. I can’t believe that here in the 21st century, we have to have websites dedicated to patiently explaining why being locked in jail because somebody’s manhood is feeling threatened is not okay. How much social media energy gets wasted every day on Basic Decency 101 primers?
It’s exhausting, and it makes me feel like we’ve gone a million steps backwards as a society.
@IP
I wasn’t assuming. I swear that I’ve seen you referred to you as “he” before.
But, it doesn’t actually matter whatever I thought here. I was wrong. Breathtakingly, 100% wrong. Full stop.
Now, mrex, use that to examine the post that started this whole thing maybe
Here’s a thread in which IP mentions being NB and then Mrex
threadshitsposts. There are others, but I have more important things to do than humour her shitwitted ass any further.I got a good giggle out of just how true this is. =P
sfhc
I will confess, I am one who was intimidated! ?
@SFHC
I remember that thread. Ughhhh.
Sorry for a minor derail, but I’ll say it isn’t a derail ’cause it’s about MRA-Alt-Right-Assholes. We just had a federal by-election here in Canada, and my riding just got taken (77%!) by a vocal, proud, unashamed MRA who likes spending his time on social media calling women Feminazis. His campaign banners are of him standing there with a smug smirk on his face in his stupid fashy haircut and now he’s gonna be my member of parliament for the next bajillion years and it’s awful. So I guess I’m never leaving the house again!
http://i2.wp.com/static.dhne.ws/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/tumblr_o89l92ODn81rmmiwfo1_4001.gif
Wow, Scildfreja, that’s really awful news.
Yeah, the thread where I mentioned the reluctance to discussing ways to prevent rape in feminist spaces led to taking shit advice, and being raped. Obviously, I was ‘victimblaming’. Uggghhhh indeed.
Also, I fail to see any reciepts that I acknowleged that I read that IP is nonbinary.
But it doesn’t matter. I misgendered them. I was wrong. Full stop.
@Buttercup
Agree and agree.
I just, don’t think that society ever viewed women as human. It’s just getting more acceptable to actually say out loud.
But that’s my take.
Why am I not getting a cookie for meeting basic standards of decency in human communication?
Um. You just stated the definition of victim blaming. That is what victim blaming is.
But we discuss the ways we attempt to keep ourselves safe from sexual assault in feminist spaces all the time. What we don’t do is tolerate people saying that we should focus prevention efforts solely on victims instead of targeting the rapists or the bystanders who enable the rape. What we don’t do is let people get away with implying or outright stating that the victim should have done this or not done that if they didn’t want to be raped.