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Women in abusive relationships should be jailed as accomplices, “involuntarily celibate” Redditor argues

What incels fantasize about

By David Futrelle

Leave it to the terrible excuses for human beings who populate the Incels subreddit to take victim blaming to its perverse extreme.

women in abusive relationships should be sent to prison (self.Incels) submitted 17 days ago by Alia_Harkonnen They are the fuel for their abusive Chads they'll later cry about, they are just as bad but also spineless and disgusting. They aren't victims of anything at all. they are in on it. If beating someone up is a crime than willingly letting them beat you up is supporting a criminal activity and should get them locked up as conspirators. Of course if it can be proven that they didn't have a choice cause they were locked in a basement or if they report the Chad and leave, then they shouldn't go to prison. But if they are caught in an ongoing relationship with history of abuse, they should be treated like criminals they are and not like victims.

I’m not sure you really count as an “involuntary celibate” if you hold views so toxic that no women would even want to be in the same room as you.

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mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@IP

“Um. You just stated the definition of victim blaming. That is what victim blaming is.”

How can I be victim blaming, when the victim I’m “blaming” there is myself, and the “blame” consists entirely of “gee I wish I knew this beforehand, because I may not have been raped, and it really would have been nice to have skipped that whole ordeal”.

See, this is what I’m talking about. I admit that I came here and was too interested in “debate” and “playing the devil’s advocate” in the past. That’s not the culture here, and that’s cool. I admit that I have an incredible ability to shove my foot in my mouth. I even admit that I’m a giant asshole.

But while I’m expected to not assume what others are thinking, and have empathy, and all other good advice, I’m treated with the worst possible assumptions, and I have to try to crawl on eggshells and try to play psychic so that I’m not misinterperted.

Today, there’s too much other shit going on, and I’m not having it. I came here for one reason- to have a nice little conversation about misogyny and distract myself from all the other shit. If you want to focus on talking about misogyny, then great! (Please do please do please do). If you want to insult me by how I’m such an asshole that I feel sorry for incels, then I’m not in the mood for playing anyone’s stupid little punching bag today. Don’t swing and I won’t. Promise. Keep swinging and I will. Promise.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Plus you can get garden variety advice like “don’t accept a drink from a stranger” or “have a buddy system with friends when you go out” anywhere on the internet. There’s not much of a point in demanding they be discussed in feminist spaces because a. we’ll have already heard these tips a million times before and b. feminist spaces are not explicitly crime prevention spaces and when we discuss rape it’s typically either a more advanced discussion about rape culture or it’s people sharing their own personal experiences. Either way, not so appropriate to bring up crime avoidance tips.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
4 years ago

Mrex: in the linked thread, you were concentrating on ways to be the ‘strongest gazelle’ who would be able to avoid being raped.

I don’t know what you’ve said elsewhere, so i will concentrate on this.

There are some pretty obvious problems with this statement.

You are concentrating on the gazelles, the prey, and not the lions. While i don’t believe that gazelles are victims of lions (carnivores need to eat!) I do believe that women are victims of men. (Statistically, there are obviously more permutations of this, but this is the current argument/topic.)

Saying that we could be discussing ways to be the strongest gazelle ignores the fact that, perhaps, the lions can just not attack us. Afterall, we are humans and they don’t need sex to survive.

Saying ‘yes, but they DO attack us! We don’t live in a perfect society yet, how do we, as potential victims, minimise our chances of rape?’ Is foolish. You know how, i know how.

TW for victim blaming.

-don’t drink. Don’t get drunk. Don’t drink in public spaces. Don’t get drunk in public spaces. Don’t drink around strangers. Don’t be drunk around strangers. Don’t drink around male friends. Don’t be drunk around male friends. Don’t go over to someone’s house and drink. Don’t be drunk at someone’s house. Don’t be visibly drunk on the street. Don’t take a cab. Don’t take an uber. Don’t.

-watch your drink. Don’t leave it alone.

-navigate every social interaction with a man perfectly. Smile the exact right amount to not make him angry. Don’t smile too much, and give him ideas. Don’t tease or laugh too much, were you flirting? Don’t give him a real number, obviously you were interested in him.

-don’t walk (even sober) around late at night. Don’t be on quiet streets. Don’t be on dark streets.

-always say no, even when you’ve frozen up in fear because is he going to kill you? They say for you to not fight, so at least you’ll survive.

-wear the right clothing to please men (because, as a society we want women to be pleasing for men) but not slutty clothing. Showing your breasts? Your legs? Dressing in a way that makes you feel empowered or pretty or sexy or you just like it? Don’t do that.

-wear sexy enough clothes, if you don’t you might get harassed anyway. If you are attacked, obviously your BEHAVIOUR was what lead him to think you wanted it.

-text your friends that you made it home, un-raped. (Because that is what you are doing.)

-don’t have sex with him, now he thinks you’re always down for it. Do have sex with him, he’s a nice guy. He wouldn’t do that.

-navigate every convoluted, no win scenario perfectly. Follow contradictory rules. Double-think (double-act?) To please all the varied expextations you’ll find for presenting as a woman in public.

In conclusion: WE KNOW HOW TO BE THE STRONGER GAZELLE. What do you think rape prevention has always focused on? THIS TOPIC.

It doesn’t do any good, because you can’t be perfect enough to perfect yourself out of ever being a victim. ESPECIALLY if you are a minority of some description, dealing with being a woman + all the other possible things to be discriminated against by.

No one wants to discuss it because we are tired of being told we need to be perfect by following these simple, totally straight forward, rules. If we are attacked, what did we do wrong??

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
4 years ago

Mrex, the very best case scenario is that when you came into a thread to gently suggest that maybe Muslim women wouldn’t be attacked as much if they just never interacted with the outside world, you didn’t bother to read any of the conversation that was happening 2 posts above yours; and in the 15-ish months since, you were so deep into the self-absorption that we cis people like to indulge in that you never managed to correct your faulty impression of IP’s gender, despite their frequent presence on the site. This… is not a very good best case scenario.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Today, there’s too much other shit going on, and I’m not having it. I came here for one reason- to have a nice little conversation about misogyny and distract myself from all the other shit. If you want to focus on talking about misogyny, then great! (Please do please do please do). If you want to insult me by how I’m such an asshole that I feel sorry for incels, then I’m not in the mood for playing anyone’s stupid little punching bag today. Don’t swing and I won’t. Promise. Keep swinging and I will. Promise.

But this kind of thing is why people make the worst assumptions. You come into a thread and either pick a fight on purpose or say something that looks bad and then insist you meant something else entirely which we all should’ve been able to pick up on because reasons. Then you lay the guilt on trip on people for responding to the things you said.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Why do men get to drink in public and walk down dark streets and look sexy and smile and be flirty but women are told never to do those things with the threat of rape to keep us in line?

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
4 years ago

Also shit, i didn’t say that i am sorry to hear you were hurt, mrex. That’s terrible, no one should go through that. Thank you for sharing your story.

Letting people know that ‘hey, date rape drugs can taste of something’ is good information to pass on. Asking if anyone else has information that contradicts common knowlege is also maybe good, in an appropriate dicussion thread.

It is a fine line to walk, so that it is giving info and not just blaming people for not knowing better. Not all threads would be the right place for it.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Is crawling on egg shells anything like stepping on Legos? Because if it is, I think that might be an excellent idea.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@Rhuu

Yes, that’s all terrible advice. Most of the advice on rape is written by men. If it was discussed by women, in a feminist context, it might actually be realistic.

Or, at the very least, the very blatent falsehood that date rape drugs are tasteless may be thrown about less.

TW: rape

Don’t tell me about victim blaming. When it happened, I was out with an ex. I remember very very little about what happened that night, but when I woke up the next morning, I was home alone. I was violently ill. He called me up and asked, “what happened”. I said I didn’t know. He said “you were drugged, you weren’t drinking booze, you should have watched your drink.” He then berated me for the next hour, maybe?

The last thing I clearly remember is that my drink tasted salty. I thought, “huh, that’s weird, but I’ve been watching my drink, and date rape drugs are tastless, anyway”.

Turns out that GHB is salty. I actually think that it was him that drugged me, although I have no proof.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@mrex – That is awful, and I’m sorry that happened to you. I don’t know your situation, of course, but it’s strange that your ex didn’t have your back and try to keep you safe that night, and instead called and berated you the next day. Seems like a red flag (but then, he is your ex).

Nthing what Rhuu said – there’s too much magical thinking that goes on with rape prevention. Bottom line is, nobody deserves it. Nobody brings it on themselves because they were too careless, or too foolish. Trying to outrun the other gazelles is problematic, for many reasons.

Because focusing on what the victim was doing, wearing, or saying blurs the edges of consent, and blurs the definition of rape. It implies that the woman did something to attract the attention of the rapist.

Because sex is viewed transactional instead of a mutually enjoyable activity, so therefore anything women do, from going to a bar to wearing a skirt to walking down the sidewalk, is viewed as signing the dotted line on the contract.

Because women’s default desire for sex is assumed to be “yes” until proven otherwise.

Because that’s what rapey men want to hear, and it’s what they tell themselves.

Of course there are things you can do individually to lower your odds of being a target, but it doesn’t guarantee you never will be one. And there will always be women who are in harm’s way, who are unable to protect themselves, who are the unlucky gazelles caught out in the open, and the predator’s gaze will move on to them. Until men step up and acknowledge that they are the ones responsible for rape and change their attitudes and behaviors around sex, what women do is never going to be enough.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@Viscaria

“you were so deep into the self-absorption that we cis people like to indulge in that you never managed to correct your faulty impression of IP’s gender, despite their frequent presence on the site.”

I don’t like IP very much, and I tend to skip their posts.

Which excuses literally nothing.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@Buttercup

“Of course there are things you can do individually to lower your odds of being a target, but it doesn’t guarantee you never will be one. And there will always be women who are in harm’s way, who can’t protect themselves. Until men step up and acknowledge that they are the ones responsible for rape and change predatory attitudes and behaviors, what women do is never going to be enough.”

Yes THIS. I do not believe that women should be blamed. I fo not think they are at fault.

But I also think that feminists owe it to women to make sure that they’re actually basing their risk assessments on reality. Unlike what I did.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

But I also think that feminists owe it to women to make sure that they’re actually basing their risk assessments on reality.

And where have feminists advised that women be completely careless? Because the only time I see that advise around here is from the trolls who are trying to act like rapists are only lurking trench coated monsters in dark alleys.

There’s a pretty big difference between pushing back on the idea that “you shouldn’t have done ____ if you didn’t want to raped” and saying it’s a great idea for women to be cavalier about our safety. I suspect you know this.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

I don’t like IP very much, and I tend to skip their posts.

I must be doing something right.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
4 years ago

I will say only short thing.

victim blaming so dangerous because already you are blamed when something happen to you and then after society blames you again and again.

every time there is new assault or something like Harvey winestain, again you must to listen to society blame you. you listen to strangers saying exactly same like your friends say or your boss say or police say. and it feel like everywhere people thinking same and you are so alone.

so how can any persons who is victim of assault ever heal their mind? they can not! not in this environment. you see the rapist get protected, get benefit of doubt and you feel worthless.

no other victims treated like this but victim of sexual assault and rape.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
4 years ago

@Valentin – which makes rape one of the most underreported crimes (because why bother), which makes the victims feel even more isolated and silenced, which does little to deter it happening again. And so the cycle goes.

@IP – I always read your posts at least twice, so maybe that makes up for it?

@WWTH – yep. Just World might be a fallacy, but that doesn’t mean we should give up trying to make the world less randomly cruel.

@Scildfreja – so sorry to hear the Darkness has reached your neck of the woods. Ugh. It undermines trust in your neighbors, wondering which of them secretly voted for him. How long is his term?

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Buttercup

I already read my own posts to make sure I haven’t said anything exceedingly stupid. With your help, I am now being read much more than necessary! Thank you. 🙂

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@WWTH

Where did I say that feminists promote women being careless with their safety? I don’t think that we promote that. What I did say, is that throwing *every* discussion about what women need to do to avoid rape out as “victim blaming”, is throwing the baby out with the bath water, since it prevents misinformation from being corrected.

There is no thread here, at any time, where I could have said, “Hey lets talk about how women can stay safe from rape”. I would be called victim blamer. I would be told that the discussion doesn’t need to happen, because “women aren’t stupid”, like only stupid people hear misinformation. Literally no-one would stop and think, “hey maybe mrex has a REASON to think the way she does”. The discussion would be just “blerg blerg TROLL blerg”.

How do I know this would happen? Because it’s happening right now.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
4 years ago

There is no thread here, at any time, where I could have said, “Hey lets talk about how women can stay safe drom rape”.

I think if you said this one people would say this place is for more complex discussion and for mockery of all things David posts about.

if someone come and say, I am interested what I can do to stay safe, I believe most people here have plenty good info. many people talk about self defence here. about how to be assertive.

for example i could say ‘hi I am going on ship next week and I have bad history with captain there because of previous incident with sexual assalt. is there advise what I can do for safe trip?’ and I know so many people here happy to help!

no one will call you victim blamed for ask advise – because that is victim blaming!

edit : also I agree with what kupo said. this also not 100% place for that.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

There is no thread here, at any time, where I could have said, “Hey lets talk about how women can stay safe drom rape”.

That’s because this site focuses on the vile hate groups of the manosphere. If you want to discuss these things, maybe look to a feminist education site like Everyday Feminism? But be warned, the way you phrase things you’ll probably have a hard time getting your intentions across there, too.

When you post here, you’re necessarily taking a thread about what pieces of shit some specific men are with regards to their views on women and rape and turning it into what their victims could have done differently, and that’s not something we will ever tolerate.

Edit: Also what Valya says is true. We can’t read minds and if you’re truly looking for advice then just say that. Instead you talk about others and what they could do differently and that’s taken poorly for what should be obvious reasons.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
4 years ago

@Buttercup, thank you. They don’t vote for this sort of nonsense secretly, though, they’re right out in the open. This is where Rebel Media is from after all. So yeah, I haven’t trusted my neighbours to not be jerks for years now.

I really gotta get out of here 😐

At least the Liberals kicked a Conservative out of Quebec, which is fantastic! Quebec is closest to flipping away from the CPC, and it was in an area considered part of their “heartland” in the east. They’ve got no realistic hope of winning Alberta, so on a strategic level the by-elections turned out great. Just not so great on a personal level.

We don’t have set election days or terms, just a maximum of five years. However, this was a by-election, because the previous MP resigned. So it’ll be whenever the next Federal election happens, which has to be in 2020 at the latest – the guess is that there’ll be a late 2019 election, at which point all the seats are up for grabs.

With luck this asshole will have made such an embarrassment of himself that he won’t go for re-election, cause I know that he’ll have a fourty year career otherwise.

Should mail him a tiki torch as a congratulation gift.

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Oh, the Chaos Queen is here. Glory.

@Schildfreja, sorry about your election. I live in a *very* red state, and I know how disheartening it is.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
4 years ago

“Fastest gazelle” is a zero-sum game. In the long run we have to figure out how to reduce the number of men who turn into rapists. This probably means changing how boys are raised in our society/ies.

Jesalin
Jesalin
4 years ago

@Buttercup

Z&T, I like the “Don’t be an asshole” mantra. Going to try to apply it more often.

“Don’t be an asshole”, should be the first commandment in any religion.

@Scildfreyja

Oh bloody hell, that sucks!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Where did I say that feminists promote women being careless with their safety? I don’t think that we promote that.

I can scroll up and see what you said before. You know that, right?

But I also think that feminists owe it to women to make sure that they’re actually basing their risk assessments on reality.

You’re saying right here that feminists are advising women incorrectly. If that’s not what you’re meaning to say, than what are you meaning to say here?

There is no thread here, at any time, where I could have said, “Hey lets talk about how women can stay safe drom rape”.

Total fucking bullshit. Phrasing it like this is probably never going to go well because it implies that there is some set of behaviors that can keep us same from rape and if we don’t do these behaviors, than we are to blame. But there have been plenty of threads where people manage to talk about the things they do to try and keep themselves safe. I can’t count the number of times I’ve posted about how I assume that men who either ignore boundaries no matter small they small or engage in any kind of rape apologia go in the possible rapist category and I deem them unsafe to be alone with. The difference is, I don’t say that if a woman dismisses red flags – because we are socialized to put niceness and politeness ahead of our own safety concerns – and she trusts a man who ends up raping her that she isn’t a strong gazelle like me. There are plenty of threads in which the topic is about some men getting a sad because we’re creep shaming meany pants in which it is entirely appropriate to state your safety strategies and how you won’t apologize for them. In a thread where we’re discussing victim blaming, it isn’t appropriate to march in and say that maybe we should focus on victim behavior to prevent rape. Context is important.

I am sorry that you’re struggling with internalized victim blaming over your own assault. But that does make it okay for you to take that out on us. If you want to wank about how opposing victim blaming means feminists are to blame for rape, go to AVFM or the red pill subreddit and do it there. You’ll make lots of new friends I’m sure.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@mrex

If you were “nicer”, I don’t remember that. What I do remember is that you actually took the time to engage

Is… is that not what that word means? Look, I’m not an expert on niceties by any stretch, but I’d have thought that my black ass taking time outta my black life to hold your white hand thru baby’s 1st institutional racism seminar would qualify as, if not strictly nice, at least nicer. Gimme some credit, Becky, damn…

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

<3 Axe

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
4 years ago

@Scildfreja

With luck this asshole will have made such an embarrassment of himself that he won’t go for re-election, cause I know that he’ll have a fourty year career otherwise.

😉

Gonna give luck a bit of a hand, I hope. 😛

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@WWTH

“You’re saying right here that feminists are advising women incorrectly. “

I’m not saying that it’s feminists that are advising women incorrectly, I’m saying that it’s feminists that are saying that advice is literally always inappropiate.

“Phrasing it like this is probably never going to go well because it implies that there is some set of behaviors that can keep us same from rape and if we don’t do these behaviors, than we are to blame.”

Blame is such the wrong word to be using here.

“In a thread where we’re discussing victim blaming, it isn’t appropriate to march in and say that maybe we should focus on victim behavior to prevent rape. Context is important.”

I think I admitted as much.

“I am sorry that you’re struggling with internalized victim blaming over your own assault.”

Wow, just wow. I’m speechless.

@Axe

“Look, I’m not an expert on niceties by any stretch, but I’d have thought that my black ass taking time outta my black life to hold your white hand thru baby’s 1st institutional racism seminar would qualify as, if not strictly nice, at least nicer.

Good point! Too bad that we didn’t go more into baby’s first institutional racism seminar, and instead argued nonstop about whether or not every working class white, a population larger than most the European countries represented here, are actual victims of classism, and not all whiny Nazis to be mocked if they find starving problematic.

Think I would have actually learned something in baby’s first institutional racism seminar.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

Oh? And the “stupid” thing that I said was supposedly that incels are OK! Or at least poor little dears. Excuse me if I find that extremely insulting.

Unlike you, I read, and I know what you said and I was addressing exactly what you said. Not what you intended, or what you imagine that you said. I was addressing what anyone who can scroll back two pages can see for themselves.

No need to paraphrase what you imagine in your head that I interpreted your words to be. I never gave an interpretation. That is entirely your invention. You’ve been inventing a shitload of messages from me as though I’ve been saying a bunch of nonsense which I have not actually said. The problem with trying to gaslight me (or readers, maybe) is that anyone can scroll up and see that I did not, for instance, advise you to ask people what they intended. Or that I did not, in fact, interpret some meaning into your plain-English words.

So are you intentionally trying to gaslight readers, or is that unconscious? Or are you maybe genuinely responding to imaginary things that I didn’t say? You needn’t answer – I’m just throwing out theories.

And I know what you think of me. You may be able to hide behind words in this thread, but don’t think that I don’t see you.

I’ve made absolutely no attempt to hide what I think of you, in this thread or any other. That is just another invention of yours that you’re projecting onto me.

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Does any of the long-time readers of WHTM remember Ruby Hypatia? That’s who mrex reminds me of.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@mrex

Too bad that we didn’t go more into baby’s first institutional racism seminar

I wonder why we didn’t…

instead argued nonstop about whether or not every working class white … are actual victims of classism

I wonder why we didn’t…

not all whiny Nazis to be mocked if they find starving problematic

I wonder why we didn’t…

Think I would have actually learned something in baby’s first institutional racism seminar

The reason you didn’t learn anything, and the reason you think I didn’t give that seminar, is that you weren’t paying attention. You said just upthread that you’re more willing to listen to me cos I’m black. I knew this was bullshit when I first read that (you’re white, y’all don’t listen to us as a general rule), but, if I ever needed proof…

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
4 years ago

@Jesalin, PeeVee, ShadowPlay, thank you! I’m not really thinking about what to do about him as my MP just yet. Too upset about the fact he’s there right now.

@mrex et. al.

First: I think that you were sincere and of good intentions in your original post, but reacted badly to the fact that it didn’t come across as you had hoped. I haven’t weighed in on the conversation because I didn’t think there was much I could do to help it settle.

Then you posted this:

Good point! Too bad that we didn’t go more into baby’s first institutional racism seminar, and instead argued nonstop about whether or not every working class white, a population larger than most the European countries represented here, are actual victims of classism, and not all whiny Nazis to be mocked if they find starving problematic.

May I reply to this one, Axe?

Axe says “I held your hand to actually engage with you about racism, that was me giving you a kindness” and your reply is “it’s a shame you didn’t actually do that, I might have learned something, and gosh ain’t it a shame all these people can’t see the Nazis are just economically anxious”?

That’s where we’re going?

Think I would have actually learned something in baby’s first institutional racism seminar.

I don’t often get sour on here, I try to avoid it, but you stepped up to Axe, and I take special offense. When he gives one of his babby’s-first-institutional-racism-seminars, I’m first in fucking line and I say thank you when he’s done; I don’t sass about how it wasn’t actually all that helpful. Let me be clear:

Minorities have no duties to white people to educate them about racism.

Classist issues – which no one here denies – in no way absolve or excuse white peoples’ racist tendencies.

Complaining about a black person not sufficiently engaging you in the terms that you want is nothing more than another expression of racism.

Look, Mrex, I understand that white people are harmed by class issues too. We all are. We all know this. We all understand it. Heck, most of us live it. But we also understand that our poverty and the class-based injustices are no excuse for behaving poorly. The two aren’t connected. A racist will always find an excuse for their racism, regardless of their bank account.

Being poor does not make one vulnerable to hate. Being hateful makes one vulnerable to hate.

Axe deserves so much better than to be used as a bludgeon to go after the commenters you’re arguing with.

Besides, Axe ain’t a bludgeon, he’s a fuckin’ axe

dslucia
dslucia
4 years ago

I’m not saying that it’s feminists that are advising women incorrectly, I’m saying that it’s feminists that are saying that advice is literally always inappropiate.

We have had multiple people in direct response to you give you direct examples of when they believe it would be appropriate to discuss such things, and in fact when they have discussed such things.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m also confused of the constant false dichotomy that Mrex is always presenting between voting anti-racist and voting pro-economic equality. Since when did poor people of any color do better under Republican governors or presidents? It’s not a choice between poor white people being starving and jobless or people of color being treated as human beings. It never was. That’s why the economic anxiety excuse rings hollow.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@kupo + Scild
Hearts 🙂

May I reply to this one, Axe?

Sure thing, and well done 😀

Complaining about a black person not sufficiently engaging you in the terms that you want is nothing more than another expression of racism

Guest lecturer: Scildfreja Unnydnes! (oh, and so fuckin help me if @mrex suddenly understands this now a white person has explained it)

Besides, Axe ain’t a bludgeon, he’s a fuckin’ axe

Definitely #notyourshield at any rate 😛

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
4 years ago

Schild and Axe,

😍😍😍😍😍

That is all.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
4 years ago

@Axe,

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Your patience is the only reason I feel confident saying anything about it at all, you! <3

I feel bad about piling on. I mean, I don't think mrex has bad intentions. Just blind spots, and we all have those. I mean jees, as if that isn't the number-one-problem, though. Like, in general.

I have written like five paragraphs here and then deleted them all because my ideas are a jumblemess right now. I have not eaten since this time yesterday, so I should do that instead!

<3

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m not saying that it’s feminists that are advising women incorrectly, I’m saying that it’s feminists that are saying that advice is literally always inappropiate.

We have had multiple people in direct response to you give you direct examples of when they believe it would be appropriate to discuss such things, and in fact when they have discussed such things.

Yup. I always advocate that women follow their gut and not be afraid of leaving a situation that feels wrong for fear of seeming rude. Or not trusting a man that displays red flags or sets off the creepdar because it’s mean or because others assure her that he’s harmless/nice. To me that’s more useful than the typical safety tips because most rape is not stranger rape. As much as our culture loves to give rape prevention tips, it also loves to guilt and gaslight women into trusting predators. Rape prevention tips that only regulate women’s behavior are accepted. Rape prevention tips that inconvenience men by letting us know that it’s okay to refuse to let down our boundaries for them is evil feminazi shit.

Of course, that’s also not foolproof. Someone might have a creepdar that’s not that great for various reasons. Or a rapist may be a skilled enough manipulator to not throw up any red flags at all. Even the best and most well intended advice has limited use.

Ultimately, alcohol and drugs don’t cause rape. They are merely a tool that rapists use. The only way to avoid being raped for sure is to never be somewhere with someone who chooses to rape you. There’s nothing you can do that will guarantee that will never happen. This is why it’s more important to focus on teaching men what affirmative consent is, that they have to get it, and that rape is solely the fault of the rapist. That’s the rape prevention that truly works. See the success of that Don’t be That Guy campaign that the MRAs hated so much.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
4 years ago

I really like this motto:
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Because it’s hard to do, but I have to remember to do so. You can hang up the phone, you can close the door, you can leave a conversation without being polite. If someone is making you or a friend uncomfortable, Fuck Politeness and get out of there.

firmicute
firmicute
4 years ago

okay.. 1 ghb tastes lightly salty up to alkaline. But GBL, the liquid form tates.. its weird, the more you drink the worse it tastes- but at the beginning it doesn’t taste strong.. It’s like ghb, can taste mildly soapy and bitter.
You would need less gbl to get someone to be strongly intoxicated, so that may be why you tasted the salt.
then you have benzodiazepines- which in combination with alcohol have a far stronger effect. They taste bitter. There are some you can get in drop or as sublingual plates which is problematic because at least for normal pills you may have residue of non-solvable filler material as sediment on the bottom of the glass.
BZP are also relevant because they have a far longer duration and are very good detectable, while GHB gets broken down by your metabolism very fast and the duration usually should be not so long- like people who take it as a drug report around 4 hour duration, maybe 6-8 if you arent used to it.
For Ghb you need dedicated testing and YOU NEED IT FAST because after 8 hours most of it will be out of your systems and the metabolites are not specific for ghb/gbl
There are also so called z-benzodiazepines, which are similar but not the same. they taste horrible, disgusting, metallic which may be the reason asshole-rapists don’t use them because if you take them you taste them.
well and alcohol is ofc also a date rape drug- in the UK they tested for a while -every person who came in for intoxication and said they fear someone had slipped sth into their drink were tested for the usual drugs.
Afaik not a single person was drugged- all just had alcohol intoxication and so its important to see that it can very well happen that your tolerance changed- like if you get ill or have not eaten enough can lead to a person getting shitfaced from a dose that’s lower than they can usually take..
So also be wary of alcohol bc that can be mean.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

“The reason you didn’t learn anything, and the reason you think I didn’t give that seminar, is that you weren’t paying attention.”

Perhaps. When I took a break to think things over, I eventually realized that you and me weren’t having the same conversation. At least I don’t think we were.

Or perhaps, this is all just because I am so deeply racist that I literally can’t see what you’re saying.

Either way, I plan on continuing with my reading and learning on institutional racism. Someday I will be better, Axe. Promise.

You said just upthread that you’re more willing to listen to me cos I’m black. I knew this was bullshit when I first read that (you’re white, y’all don’t listen to us as a general rule), but, if I ever needed proof…

Well, I actually listened to you. I mostly rolled my eyes at the white posters.

“Definitely #notyourshield at any rate 😛”

Exhibit #9371 of my white privilege is that I didn’t even think that I was doing that when I name dropped you.

@schild

“That’s where we’re going?

No. In particular, “and gosh ain’t it a shame all these people can’t see the Nazis are just economically anxious”?” is not where I was going. The Nazi’s are not automatically economically anxious whites. Most importantly, economically anxious whites are not automtically Nazis.

You’re… Candian? Correct?

What are the biases against working class whites in Canada?

In the US, poor whites are maligned as racists. Automatically. *ALL* factory workers, all 10s of millions of them, are racist. Automatically. It’s a classist bias. It took me a while to put in words just why I got so upset whenever someone said “economic anxiety” and racism in the same sentence.

And before someone runs in, whining, that I’m so meaaaaan for saying that they’re (unintentionally) classist; suck it the fuck up.

“I think that you were sincere and of good intentions in your original post, but reacted badly to the fact that it didn’t come across as you had hoped.”

There’s no way for me to win, or even draw. There will never be a meeting of minds here, between me or anyone else. If I’m going to lose, if it’s a foregone conclusion, then I will lose on my terms. Swinging and flaming out the asshole.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

In the US, poor whites are maligned as racists. Automatically. *ALL* factory workers, all 10s of millions of them, are racist.

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There’s no way for me to win, or even draw. There will never be a meeting of minds here, between me or anyone else. If I’m going to lose, if it’s a foregone conclusion, then I will lose on my terms. Swinging and flaming out the asshole.

So… you admit to being a troll?

Look, you yourself admitted that you came in here with a confrontational attitude without reading the room to see if that was going to go over well.

I admit that I came here and was too interested in “debate” and “playing the devil’s advocate” in the past.

It was on you to make amends for that and earn a second chance. You didn’t do that. You carried on picking fights. You’re proving now that everyone who was reluctant to read your posts charitably and assume good faith was right to not trust you.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@Axe

“Exhibit #9371 of my white privilege is that I didn’t even think that I was doing that when I name dropped you.”

By this I meant that I’m such a dumb privileged fuck that I didn’t even consider it a possibility. Because privilege.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
4 years ago

I’ll agree you’re an asshole, mrex, whatever reasons you are excusing your actions for being so.

Every time you make an appearace here, you say something patently absurd, and then claim victimization when people rightly correct you. This then goes on for pages. This is boring as fucking hell, and it is tiring to watch.

At this point, it is not a bug, but a feature. It is your MO. Knock it the fuck OFF already.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Mrex, I think I’ve said this before, but you really need to stop doing a couple of things:

1) Stop taking criticism of your words as criticism of you. When we go after your assertions and call them ridiculous we’re not calling you ridiculous. I know it’s really hard to do and all the advice I can give you is what I learned working for over a decade in service: let them be angry, remind yourself that they’re not angry at you, and when they’re done being angry and you’ve listened to the whole thing, pull out the bits you have control over, repeat them back to make sure you’re on the same page, and work together on how to fix the problem.

2) Stop making everything black and white. If someone asks you not to bring up what a victim could have done differently in a thread, don’t characterize that as “I can never talk about how to avoid being raped.” When someone tells you that the exit polls show most Trump voters did so for racist, rather than economic reasons, despite your arguments that factory workers are worried about their jobs, that doesn’t mean all factory workers are racists.

mrex
mrex
4 years ago

@WWTH

Girl really.

“So… you admit to being a troll?”

No.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite
Brony, Social Justice Cenobite
4 years ago

If society focuses on trying to change a victim a predator will simply adapt to the change in some manner. So not only do they get “advice”, it’s “advice” that pressures victims and potential victims into doing work. This is a lazy, callous, counterproductive, and bigoted way for the social dynamics to be structured (and other negative characteristics).
Things that increase safety are ok, but society must put explicit social emphasis on confronting the social predator and it needs a better instinct for how people sexually prey in practice. Safety should not be that kind of social response.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
4 years ago

Having grown up white in the United States, my approach to seeing racism in other white people is like seeing right handedness. Until I see someone using their left hand for something, I assume they’re right handed.
Fortunately for me, I live in an environment that makes that easier and safer than it is in many other areas.

Part of my perspective is affected by the fact that both of my husbands have been MOC, and both of my sons are Black. Maintaining those relationships while retaining the racism I grew up with would have been far more work than I was willing to do, so unlearning the racism became a priority.

I think for some people, hearing ‘what you did/said was racist/sexist/homophobic’ translates as ‘you are a Bad Person, and you should feel bad’.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

I think for some people, hearing ‘what you did/said was racist/sexist/homophobic’ translates as ‘you are a Bad Person, and you should feel bad’.

This is a good point. And here’s the thing: if I’m part of the targeted group (women, for example), it’s far too much work and too dangerous to correct someone so I only do that with people i trust. So while my motivation is “I love you and trust you and want to help you be better,” they hear “you’re a terrible person.” I’ll have to think about how to make my motivations clearer going forward.