By David Futrelle
Leave it to the terrible excuses for human beings who populate the Incels subreddit to take victim blaming to its perverse extreme.
I’m not sure you really count as an “involuntary celibate” if you hold views so toxic that no women would even want to be in the same room as you.
@Z&T – I’m so, so sorry to hear about your mom. My heart is aching for you. It’s one of the hardest transitions in life. Hugs and condolences – your mom sounds like an amazing woman.
Grief can feel complicated. It’s not a linear process, it’s more like tangled ball of yarn. Or a shipwreck. There will be days when you feel like you’re tumbling and drowning and don’t know which end is up.
Hang in there. We’re all thinking of you. <3
Buttercup said
So true. There were also days when I felt perfectly normal which made me feel utterly surreal at the same time.
In addition to what Buttercup and Hambeast said, you’ll have days where you have to take it one minute at a time and days where you almost never think about it. And there will be times that you’re overwhelmed with grief and times you feel guilty because you don’t think you’re sad enough. It’s a process and it’s all perfectly normal. Over time it does get easier.
Echoing what kupo and Hambeast said.
Little things will continue to ambush you, too. Strangers who remind you of your mom. Holidays. Birthdays. Things you used to do together. I couldn’t get through grocery shopping for the first 2 months without having to stop and gasp for breath every few feet. I heard my mom’s favorite song in a doctor’s waiting room recently and dissolved in tears.
The bad times get further and further apart, and the pain does get less acute. One day you’ll be able to smile again, but it won’t be the same you, or the same smile.
It’s the price of being human. (A price that incels and MGTOWs are vocally unwilling to pay, but they end up paying a much worse price even as they spit on empathy, decency, and ordinary relationships. You have had the very great good fortune to love, and be loved by, an extraordinary woman, Z&T. No one can ever take that from you.)
@Z and T
I am so sorry about your mom. I really understand as my mom is not well. Condolences and sympathies. Your mom sounds like she was an amazing person.
@Ignore Sandra
One of my sexual assaults involved me making a conscious choice to be assaulted instead of being beaten up/murdered and THEN assaulted. And yes, according to like eight men as of today (More keep showing up on my original facebook post) that makes me complicit in being assaulted and therefore nullifies the assault.
Just to make this clear, this does NOT make you complicit or nullify the assault. Compliance is not consent. We might not like to admit it, but many, many women have *complied* rather than take a beating along with the rape. Or, in more ambiguous circumstances, ‘consented’ after being badgered, begged, cajoled, threatened, coerced or otherwise worn down just to make the verbal and emotional battery stop. This isn’t consent either. It isn’t something people talk about, but a few years ago I got brave and mentioned it and found out it was more common than I thought.
@Lea
Abusers groom their victims to accept their abuse. They often make sure they have no access to money, keep them pregnant, buy them pets, refuse to allow them out of the house unmonitored, restrict their access to phones and internet, destroy their family relationships, convince then if they leave they can’t take clothes, family heirlooms, etc. They sometimes deny them medical help or basic grooming. They destroy their self-esteem and often target survivors of previous abuse because it is easier to convince them they are the problem and there is no such thing as a life without abuse for the victim.
Well, this is all very familiar. In an absolute irony, my abuser believed that women who didn’t leave their abusers deserved what they got. It was early in our marriage – the mask was dropping when he one day out of the blue started one of his rants about how terrible women who were abused were if they didn’t leave. I of course tried to inject some reality into the conversation. He didn’t like it when I was trying to get him out of my house though. Very raw and I am still processing, but I suffered financial, emotional, psychological, verbal and sexual abuse from this man. He once proudly told me that I was ‘lucky’ and should be ‘grateful’ that he didn’t hit me. He didn’t have to, the threat was always there. And he made it very clear that he wanted to.
Nor does having choices always help. The house and the income were mine in my marriage but getting a parasite out of your home, especially one to whom you are married? Waaay, harder than you think. BTW, parasitic lifestyle is also a hallmark of abusers? Who knew?
On a lighter note, I am learning a lot here, I had to look up TERF, SWERF, Incel and Chad, though the last one I had a bit of an idea from context and reading over on ROK. Sigh.
The conclusions I am drawing from the Me Too posts and stories this week is that all women are groomed for abuse. That a constant, low level sexual abuse that ranges from the annoying to assault is a repeated part of most women’s lives and that with these kinds of numbers, unfortunately, the abusers can’t only be the outliers that are in the MGTOW, ROK and Men’s Rights sub-forums. I know there are still good men. I know there are men that this kind of stuff horrifies and I am holding onto that knowledge with both hands, but the implications of all of this are just staggering. I know this was meant to be a funny post because of the ridiculousness of punishing women already punished, but I was married to a man who thought that women who didn’t ‘get out’ were at fault. It has been a really sobering week.
PS – I loved the itty bitty kitties too.
Z&T: I’m very sorry. Take good care of yourself.
Thanks to all above for your thoughts. It means a lot to me. I don’t really know how to process this all either.
Me bestie is minding me and we’re having a few drinks.
And we could go on and on about abusive men, but we’re tying to stay positive here.
There is something I want to say about this, but I can’t quite find the words. And trust me, I am not shy nor usually at a lack for words. I just can’t quite find the words for some of the things I think about “these type of men”.
It’s about the propaganda of this all. We need to get our one biz friend over here, she could maybe find the words.
What I am thinking is – what about the guys (or girls or anyone) who even believes half this crap? Or what if they tell themselves they believe none of it, but yet they do seem to still want “a traditional wife”?
This….propaganda. Some of it may sink in.
And forget the outrageous stuff that Mr. DF courageously brings to light here. (As someone else opined recently – this has got to be draining.)
What about Joe Average? Who seems like a (genuinely) nice guy? And he seems supportive (or glad you work so maybe you’re not a gold digger) – but then they want to turn around and make you into a Stepford Wife anyway!
I don’t get it. The propaganda must be seeping in. And ignoring all this “manosphere” stuff – just look at TV. And not even the programs (which mostly consist of Happy Family type stuff where mom is mostly traditional, even if she works) – look at the ads alone.
Perfect Mom (way younger than the H) (T says to add- even if it’s a cartoon! Yep.) + cleaning ads.
THAT is all seeping in, too.
My Mom was perfect! She was totally badass.
In remembrance of her, I have to live up to what she was. She was strict at times, but I know it was to prepare me for “life”. She was always a good person. Would stop and help anyone.
Oh and for lurking racists (grrrr) – here’s a tale for you: One time I was shopping with Mom, I think it was at Sears. She was looking for shoes, that I remember. And must’ve found a pair because we were by a check out area. Had just paid and were walking away, when a little girl of about 6 or so came up to this area – and burst into tears!
She said she was lost, couldn’t find her mom and brother. My mom hugged her right away and said we’ll find them, don’t worry.
A little black girl.
She didn’t see race. She cared about everyone. This is one of my favorite memories, the little girl came up crying and my mom immediately swooped in and hugged her. And said don’t worry. And then went back to the cashier, call the manager, went right to work on it.
This is who she was.
And I am the same. She raised me with good values.
Her legacy lives on in you. Tara says. Yes. And to be positive and in her memory, I will be the best person I can be too. Be a good person.
Care. Help. There needs to be more care and help in the world. I am glad I found WHTM because there are so many wonderful people here too! 🙂
Thank you again, all, for your thoughts, means a lot, I am glad to know that there are people who care 🙂
My Mom would love you all too! And then probably tell you to get to work or clean your house or something 😀
@Z & T:
So sad to hear that. I lost my dad this past August. It was not unexpected — he had heart trouble for a long time, and watching him get slowly sicker was a mourning unto itself — but it’s still a lot to process. You’re right on about caring people being there to help, though…my mom, sibs and I had a lot of it, from the wonderful paramedics who came when I called for an ambulance two nights before he passed, to the lovely folks at the funeral home who walked us through everything one needs to do after a family member’s death, including getting my dad’s IDs cancelled by the government.
All the hugs and kitties if you want ’em.
@Z&T
I’m so sorry to hear that your mother died. And you found her body — a double trauma.
That’s good that you have support, and also that the professionals have been kind. Those things mean so much when you’re grieving and in shock.
Take very good care of yourself. All the hugs if they’re welcome.
@Lea
Nailed it!
@Z&T I’m so very sorry. I had a similar shock with Mum-in-law, but although I was very fond of her, that not the same thing as losing your mother. All the hugs.
Brain fog is perfectly normal. Feeling oddly cold is common too. I had both for about 4 months when Mum died, and again when Dad died. You will be happy again, but yeah, this bit is shitty.
In remembrance of her, you have to be you, and be the happiest you that you can manage. (Which isn’t going to be very happy for the next few months, hugs, but still the happiest you can manage.) I get the feeling that for you that involves being kind (GOOD) but start off with being kind to yourself. You can’t be her because you’re not her. She was awesome, but I’d bet money she’d say you were her proudest achievement.
Thanks for all the well wishes everyone, it is a help, today I’m not doing too good 🙁
@ Sheila Crosby, yes I’m sure she was proud of me and coincidentally I was thinking along the the same lines. Or, with my continued work on this, she’d be proud of me for holding up and getting things taken care of.
I was just feeling sad all day, it’s really starting to hit me. Shock’s worn off, sadness coming in. Because she was economical and taught me to be frugal with money…
Just the other day I had bought her some new bed things. She mentioned needing some new ones and I saw a nice bed set advertised at a store and went and got it for her.
And she seemed to like it. And of course never got a chance to use these new bed things 🙁
This just upset me, I felt so bad. That was one of the chores to complete today, take it back to the store, return right away, don’t waste money.
I just, this just made me so sad 🙁
And the other thing was, ok we are clearing her home now, one priority is paperwork that I have to sort out, I got all that. Another thing with a time factor was – library books. Take her library books back. I did.
She would keep these in a little shopping bag, like a “gift bag”. She was organized and that was easy to do. After I dropped the books off I put the bag in with the rest of the stuff I took home with me. And put most things away or semi sorted for now, because I am organized like her.
And then I saw the little bag again and burst into tears 🙁
I wish she could be resting on her new bed things and reading some new books. 🙁 I can’t believe she’s gone…..
I am trying to keep a grip. My good friend is here to stay with me. And I’m so glad for all the thoughts here 🙂 Thank you all so much! It really even restores my faith in humanity.
@Z&T
I’m so glad you’re not going through this alone. That’s the thing about grief– it’s an ambush predator.
@Z&T
Those little things can hurt like hell. It will take time to heal from this profound shock and loss.
Hang in there — we’re rooting for you.
@AuntiMameRedox
“The conclusions I am drawing from the Me Too posts and stories this week is that all women are groomed for abuse.”
[Sarcasm]
What do you mean it’s ‘grooming’? The women I read about in romance novels, and watch on TV, ignore every red flag in this world, and yet things turn out GREAT for them!!!!! Don’t you want to have a GREAT ROMANTIC ADVENTURE?!!!!!?????
What an uppity @#$/^&!!!!! Men are people too!!! Blerg blerg DIE ALONE blerg CATS blerg!!!
[/sarcasm]
In a less sarcastic note, I almost can’t be angry at incels, because honestly their main flaw is voicing what far too many men think behind polite smiles and false love. And compared to that bullshit, the incel’s toxic honesty is almost a breath of fresh air.
Edit: Oops my [sarcasm] tags didn’t show up!
No. Don’t feel sorry for incels. Not even by softening it with an ‘almost’. That almost in there is like a Devil’s Advocate argument. It’s a way for you to make an argument while still claiming that you weren’t actually making that argument. We see what you’re doing.
And their main flaw is saying it? Really? That’s the biggest problem with their philosophy is that they dare to state it out loud and/or in writing? Are you really going to go with that? Take a moment and think about what you’re saying when you make that kind of statement. What’s implied? What is now being deprioritized as less bad with this statement?
Uh Kupo I DON’T feel sorry for them. I think you misunderstood me, which OK I could have worded things better.
“Take a moment and think about what you’re saying when you make that kind of statement. What’s implied?”
I was implying that the attitudes displayed by incels are widespread and hidden behind a “polite” veneer. I was implying that, in light of the grooming that I poked fun of in my first paragraphs, it is actually refreshing to have someone display their toxicicity full view, rather than hiding it so that it can covertly poison when least expected.
“And their main flaw is saying it? Really? That’s the biggest problem with their philosophy is that they dare to state it out loud and/or in writing?”
I’m saying that their main flaw, in our toxic society’s view, is that they explicitly say it, rather than hiding it like a “normal” misogynist does. I’m sorry, but I don’t think our society actually gives a shit about misogyny, as long as it’s “polite”. I really don’t.
They’re not poor souls. They’re absolutly toxic. But IMO a wolf that you see is better than a wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing.
Does that make sense? Sorry for the confusion.
No. You do not get to come in here and blame your insensitivity on me by claiming I’m just confused. Fuck that noise.
@kupo
Well the only other explaination that I have is that you are purposively misrepresenting what I said because you’re looking for a fight. Don’t think that I didn’t notice that you left off the last sentence of my quote, changing the meaning of what I said.
Fuck off.
I think their main flaw is being hateful, misogynist, racist, misanthropic pieces of garbage. Compared to that, I’d think voicing those opinions is a fairly minor flaw. But what do I know.
@IP
“But what do I know.”
Indeed, as a white male, I do wonder just how many times you have personally been the victim of covert misogyny like I have?
So while kupo, or any woman, is free to argue whether covert misogyny is better or worse than explicit misogyny, I really do wonder what the fuck *you* know?
I wasn’t looking for a fight, but if any of you want to throw down, well I’m not your fucking punching bag. I gave the benefit of the doubt, I explained what I meant, and if any of you want to tell me what I said like you’re motherfucking psychic, then FUCK OFF.
mrex:
You have said here (which you might not have meant, but this is what you said) that the *main flaw* is voicing the horrific things that many men think, but don’t say. That is their main flaw, according to you.
Not, as IP put it,
I believe this is partly what Kupo is pushing back against, because obviously this is NOT their main flaw.
If this is not what you meant, perhaps consider why you wrote it? Because it is what you said.
… I’m not even sure why I’m responding, seeing as you told someone to f-off, but there. Also, why did you immediately jump down the throat of someone?
Leaving the last sentence off does NOT change what you said. It is what you said. Because this:
is untrue. It is scary as hell. It will always BE scary as hell. An honest monster is still a monster.
I pretty much agree with what IP said, so are you going to pull this same card on me?
Ok, I understand that was confusing. Intention isn’t magic, and what I said apparently wasn’t what I meant. I sincerely apologize for the confusion.
With that being said, I’m not in the mood for being insulted. I apologized. No-one gets to tell me what I meant, unless they’re fucking psychic. I will happily engage with anyone displaying good faith. Anyone looking for a fight, well that’s a different matter.
(And be fair to kupo, we do have a history together. And she was right, and I was wrong).
As to what I said, I feel that society tolerates and condones misogyny, as long as it’s hidden in a “polite” way that women can be groomed and gaslit out of seeing. I feel that the main pushback that comes at incels is that they make explict what many others hold as implicit.
What do you think?
@POM
“I pretty much agree with what IP said, so are you going to pull this same card on me?”
Well, you’re not mansplaining (and I’m fucking sick of getting that in feminist spaces), and I’m assuming you’re not looking for a personal fight.
What do think about what I said?
Edit: OK, I forgot to address my first post to Rhuu