Harvey Weinstein, Smooth Talker: Today in Tweets

Thanks, POM and PeeVee.

I can see both sides of the issue so it’s been something that I personally see as an agree to disagree situation and it doesn’t bug me. But that’s just me and I don’t expect other people to feel that way.

Would it help if people made more of an effort to read other’s posts in a charitable light if they’re a regular or semi-regular known to be here in good faith? I do think there’s maybe a difference between making a stand alone post expressing your own opinion and blockquoting and nitpicking other’s posts?

Anyway, for whatever reason I have a much thicker skin when it comes to online interactions than I do for meatspace interactions, so I can volunteer to be on the lookout for purity testing and request people to chill a little if anyone wants me to. I don’t mind.

But anyway, it’s getting a bit heavy for a Friday night and the couple of glasses of wine I’ve had are kicking in. So even though I instigated the discussion, it’s probably best I put in a pin in it for tonight.

I’m thinking about stealing a little bit of pot from my dad. How silly is that? He’s pretty much quit doing it in recent years but I think he got a bag from one his friends from his hippie days when they had a little reunion recently. That’s the peril of having parents who are liberal baby boomers. They’re better partiers than I and my friends are.

There are definitely times when I take a break from WHTM because of the “purity-testing” as PoM put it (tbf, no doubt this is often just me being overly defensive/prickly).
I’m well aware of how demands for courtesy can be weaponised (i.e. respectability politics), but I also think there are times when there’s actually no need to jump down someone’s throat in order to make a point. To be clear, I’m referring to exchanges here, between commenters – not any other context.

If I may, I wanted to respond to PoM’s post about US-hate – not to disagree as such, but to add a different dimension.
I have no tolerance for reflexive anti-Americanism whatsoever. But for many people outside of the US, the resentment and anger is very, very real and not at all performative (“Tiny Country Victimized By America #28” btw, reads as a bit offensive to the multiple countries that have been well & truly fucked over by the US).
It’s also entirely probable that a given country would behave in exactly the same way – but that’s kind of beside the point, I think? ‘Cause they’re not, and the US is.
I get that this was in relation to the US not being uniquely evil, & this is absolutely correct; it’s not. As PoM said, many countries do similar things on a smaller scale – witness my own country re asylum seekers right now.
One thing that I do see as unique though, is exceptionalism, or perhaps the degree of it. Many countries have patriots or nationalists, but not the whole “we are the light of the world” type of conviction that characterises the US.
Anyhoo, I did go through the whole “America sucks” thing waaaay back when I was in the International Socialists. It felt good at the time, but it was stupid and really, really lazy, politically speaking.
I do believe I’m rambling :/.

I can see both sides of the issue so it’s been something that I personally see as an agree to disagree situation and it doesn’t bug me. But that’s just me and I don’t expect other people to feel that way.

I’ve been trying to think of a way to explain why it’s not really an agree-to-disagree thing. Let’s say there’s a thread in which everyone agrees that the US is just unmitigated awfulness, which we’ve established is something I do not agree is true. But do I say that I don’t think it’s true? It seems like everyone is fully on board with this opinion, but it may be the case that there are some posters who don’t agree but who have been silenced by the fear of starting a fight over a potentially emotional topic. Maybe if I say something, those silenced people will no longer feel silenced and will speak up. Or maybe I’ll wind up in a giant battle with some nonzero subset of the other commenters all by myself, and maybe I don’t want to risk that today for whatever reason. So I wind up silenced myself.

I don’t see how we can agree to disagree on whether that is OK. You know me, and you know that I can drag it down with the best of them, but that’s not true all the time and I honestly shouldn’t have to get into an internet battle to say that I disagree with the apparent consensus that my country is the literal worst ever.

Would it help if people made more of an effort to read other’s posts in a charitable light if they’re a regular or semi-regular known to be here in good faith?

I don’t know what would help. I would like to see less policing of people’s feminism and progressivism outside the core requirements, and less gatekeeping as to who is allowed to call themselves a member of Group Whatever. I don’t know what that looks like in practice.

I’m thinking about stealing a little bit of pot from my dad. How silly is that?

Maybe if you asked he would share?

(“Tiny Country Victimized By America #28” btw, reads as a bit offensive to the multiple countries that have been well & truly fucked over by the US)

I didn’t actually count how many countries have been fucked over by the US but I guessed it exceeded 28.

It’s also entirely probable that a given country would behave in exactly the same way – but that’s kind of beside the point, I think? ‘Cause they’re not, and the US is.

Not even slightly beside the point? Was my point somehow unclear? Where did I go wrong with it?

Many countries have patriots or nationalists, but not the whole “we are the light of the world” type of conviction that characterises the US.

Every great power has a national myth that it is exceptional. England had it when it was the undisputed master of the world. France had it. Spain had it. Russia has it today. This is just the nature of finding one’s society at the top of the world hierarchy. It’s just-world fallacy at work – if we’re the tops, then we must have earned it somehow through our sheer awesomeness. No one is immune to this fallacy. No one.

I do wish the blog would go back more to mocking the manosphere instead of doing political news and talking about Trump 24/7. It was a lot more fun to mock misogyny and political differences aren’t quite as important as long as we’re all on the bigotry = bad page.

I admit, I do sometimes wonder why commenters are sometimes upbraided swiftly and harshly for what seem like relatively minor infractions, while obvious trolls get pages and pages dedicated just to talking about whatever they want to talk about. I mean, they get called “chew toys”, but it’s clear they’re loving the attention and it completely derails the original conversation. Of course, the discussion here is still better than most places, so consider this a minor complaint.

I disagree about the non-mysoginistic incel. What about a guy who cant get laid , calls himself INCEL, blames himself and himself only, but loves his female family members and accepts that women can make their own choices too? Is that misoginistic.

How come it is misoginistic? Where is the misogony in that?

No I cant get laid. But then again there are lots of things I cant do. But there are things I can do, so Id rather focus on things I can do instead. There are lots of things going for me, dating isnt one of them. Thats life. Im not good enough. End of.

Ive heard that feminist is shit/bad blah blah blah, and I wasnt sure about the mainstream media and how it protrays feminism, so I came to find out for myself.

What I meant to ask Kupo was, what about a woman who says yes to sex but that yes has been based on lies and manipulation. Is that rape, or is it scumbag behaviour for men like HW to get his own way? Just wondering

Also, no one is born evil in my opinion, so (apart from banning of shitty guns) how do we stop people like Elliot Rodger becoming in what he became in the first place. Change in culture? Education?

Am I way off base or is it really fucking annoying that they couldn’t fill that spot with a woman? Maybe a fresh perspective?

You’re right on base, and there’s nothing fresh about Bernie Sanders’ perspective. On much of anything, I find, but especially not when it relates to women. He really should politely refuse this one. Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren are right the fuck there, people!

Yes, absolutely. If he was going to talk about sexism, and how he and his campaign benefited from it, and that it was wrong, that would be one thing, but we all know that’s not going to happen.

Hambeast, I’m so sorry about your cat. Here’s one of my favorite quotes about cats, from Pudd’nhead Wilson (Mark Twain)

When there was room on the ledge outside of the pots and boxes for a cat, the cat was there – in sunny weather – stretched at full length, asleep and blissful, with her furry belly to the sun and a paw curved over her nose. Then that house was complete, and its contentment and peace were made manifest to the world by this symbol, whose testimony is infallible. A home without a cat – and a well-fed, well-petted, and properly revered cat – may be a perfect home, perhaps, but how can it prove its title?

EVERY state that comes into some kind of great-power status ALWAYS abuses that power, and Tiny Country Victimized By America #28 would behave exactly the same way if it were to come into power, and probably already has on a smaller scale vs. whatever ethnic or religious minority it has at hand. Guaranteed.

I’m really not seeing the difference between this and whatabout-y crap like “Sure, Trump’s pushing for war with NK, but Hillary would’ve totally pushed for war with Russia, therefore both sides.”

I’m really not seeing the difference between this and whatabout-y crap like “Sure, Trump’s pushing for war with NK, but Hillary would’ve totally pushed for war with Russia, therefore both sides.”

The difference is that I’m talking about states and societies, and you’re talking about individuals.

PoM skrev:

But there is a received wisdom that you’re not doing progressivism properly if you think the US is actually kind of OK, or god forbid that you’re proud of any aspect of it. You have to think that every current and historical sin committed by the US is mortal and the US has no redeeming features whatsoever, or else you’re not really a progressive.

I’m sure there are comment threads in which this (or something that rhymes with it) has been said. I’ll have to take your word for it that any of those threads have been on this site, though, because I seem to have missed literally all of them. Could I persuade you to post a link to some?

I honestly shouldn’t have to get into an internet battle to say that I disagree with the apparent consensus that my country is the literal worst ever.

Again, I’m not sure what sites you’re going to where this is the consensus, but I haven’t seen any sign that this is one of them, and I’d very much like to see an example.

Austin, that is kind of guaranteed to engender bad feelings, don’t you think?

Could I persuade you to post a link to some?

The one Angry referred to should be pretty easy to find if your googlefu is reasonably good. But it is a minor theme in many threads, none of which I care to revisit.

With respect, @Austin Loomis, I don’t think that’s an appropriate or fair request to make of PoM.

Austin, that is kind of guaranteed to engender bad feelings, don’t you think?

As opposed to saying that the consensus on this site is that you must hate America and everything it stands for, which I’m sure can only have been meant to engender smiles and hugs forever all around the world.

The one Angry referred to should be pretty easy to find if your googlefu is reasonably good.

My Google fu must really suck, then because the only comment from Angry that I could even find was this one from last June, which bears no resemblance to the one she writes about here:

My last comment about being proud of our military was attacked though I’m a feminist woman.

(There may have been bashing of the military and everything it does, which I can say as a Navy junior myself would be over the top, but if one can’t tell the difference between bashing the military and bashing America, I submit that maybe one’s not as progressive as one thinks one is.)

I don’t think that’s an appropriate or fair request to make of PoM.

You’re entitled to think that. I don’t think hers was an appropriate or fair claim to make about the readers of this site; in fact, I consider it an extraordinary claim, technically requiring extraordinary proof but I’ll settle for any proof.

I don’t think hers was an appropriate or fair claim to make about the readers of this site; in fact, I consider it an extraordinary claim, technically requiring extraordinary proof but I’ll settle for any proof.

Okay. I don’t have anything to prove to you, so … ???

Whatever, Austin.

Still not going to indulge your desire to name names…that’s why there were no specific names mentioned.

I’m just baffled that Austin thinks that his desire for proof creates an obligation on my part to provide it.

I owe you jack-all, Austin. WTF, for real.

PoM,

I believe he misinterpreted this passage in the first place:

Let’s say there’s a thread in which everyone agrees that the US is just unmitigated awfulness, which we’ve established is something I do not agree is true. But do I say that I don’t think it’s true? It seems like everyone is fully on board with this opinion, but it may be the case that there are some posters who don’t agree but who have been silenced by the fear of starting a fight over a potentially emotional topic.

(And, oh, yeah, do I understand where you’re coming from there!)

Because he pretty much answered me with

As opposed to saying that the consensus on this site is that you must hate America and everything it stands for, which I’m sure can only have been meant to engender smiles and hugs forever all around the world.

No, it’s just that particular thread, and the participants of that thread…

In any case, still not going to name names, because YEAH, AUSTIN, THAT WOULD ENGENDER BAD FEELINGS.

Can people see my replies?

They’re visible, peak.

Peak,

You seem to be stuck in the moderation filter. Email David and ask him to take you off moderation and your replies will post immediately.

That said, I stand by my opinion that the “involuntary” part of the term is inherently problematic.

I also think it’s pretty misogynistic to come to a post mainly covering a sexual harasser and rapist and whine about how horrible it is that some men can’t get laid.

I mean, really?

Really?

I will thanks

The “involuntary” part doesnt help but that doesnt mean that every INCEL believes that he is owed anything or women are oppressing him. I personally dont like generalisations about groups of people tbh.

And what more is to be said. HW is a scumbag of the highest order who needs to be made an example off. He only manipulated/raped women because he knew deep down he couldnt get a lady to willingly have sex with him. Freak

Does anyone who who cant get laid, blames himself and himself only, but loves his female family members and accepts that women can make their own choices too, calls himself INCEL?
The toxic that exists in that culture would drove anyone with normal empathy away.
It is the awful posts direct against everyone else, that makes the INCELs a topic for this site.
Virginshaming is something that is called out if it happens and on off the problems of the INCELs is that they don’t want help. (Their was a post about someone who wanted to make it illegal to help INCELs)
So if their is a non toxic part of the INCELmovement, please show it.

And what more is to be said. HW is a scumbag of the highest order

Apparently there is a lot more to be said, mostly about incels, mostly by you.

Dude, nobody wants to hear about incel sad boners, let alone on THIS post. The fact that this is your single note to which you return over and over and fucking over is old and tired.

that doesnt mean that every INCEL believes that he is owed anything or women are oppressing him.

INVOLUNTARY. That means that THE INCEL WOULD HAVE SEX IF SOMEONE WOULD HAVE SEX WITH HIM. There is entitlement baked directly into that, and if you can’t see it, then that is a problem with you and you only.

I personally dont like generalisations about groups of people tbh.

And? Your personal likes and dislikes mean what exactly?

The “involuntary” part doesnt help but that doesnt mean that every INCEL believes that he is owed anything or women are oppressing him.

Name and link to one self-described incel who doesn’t believe those things. Fuck, this challenge has been going on for so damn long (since, what, ’11 or ’12?) I’ll even take one that simply doesn’t base every single aspect of their personality, worldview and day-to-day life around those things.

Note: By whinging about your bonersads in a thread about a serial rapist, you’ve already disqualified yourself.

@Peak

If I said “I am a kkk but I didn’t agree with the first “k”.BUT, the second “k” , i do agree with. I don’t like how the kkk act….what a bunch of meany poop heads that can’t get laid.but I’m still a kkk”

^^if I said that people would shout for me to get the fuck out of here. Rightfully so.

So what’s diff bout this situation?

Btw, you’ve been responded to quite succinctly.

Women are talking.
You aren’t listening.

And your callousness to turn this thread into your boner prob is gross. Hw isn’t just some guy copping a feel. He represents and participates the crushing oppression that women go thru every fucking day AND YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR FEE FEES AND INCELS.

You took a break from posting for awhile. And yet, you took zero time to learn shit. You didnt listen, u didnt try.

You just came back with your same sad boner – thinking we were all goldfish that would forget you.

If you do not want to listen, ok.
So get the fuck outta here.

I am really sick of trifling men.

@everybody

TMI REALLY GROSS. WARNING!!!

I know lots of people don’t curse like a sailor, but calling horrific serial rapists “scumbags” doesnt work for me.

Hw a fucking piece of shit. He is the grossest shit I’ve ever shat. Lactose intolerant, menstruation induced, covered in clotted period blood shit in a toilet that has cramp vomit in it – That is what he is.

And every fucking person that hems and haws over parts of this case to give any whiff of innocence or victim blaming is nothing but the foam on my cramp vomit, floating in the toilet next to my HW shits.

 He only manipulated/raped women because he knew deep down he couldnt get a lady to willingly have sex with him. Freak

Citation needed.

@Jeyne

Yeah, I missed that one. The classic “he’s terrible bc he couldn’t get laid” trope. Fuck that. Peak thinks rapists are just “scumbags” that can’t get laid.

@peak
” He ONLY manipulated/raped…”

Bc he couldn’t get laid. Fucking hell, Peak. Thats some fucked up shit. Don’t try to explain rape that away. There is no reason or excuse you can explain for writing that. Fuck, dude.

I personally dont like generalisations about groups of people tbh.

Are you trying to insinuate that incels are an oppressed group and it’s wrong to have a bad opinion of them? Because no. Incel is not a synonym for virgin or lonely or shy or anything like that. It’s a subculture. It’s a word that only people who are familiar with that subculture know. Misogyny and entitlement are features of that subculture. Not bugs. Choosing to identify as an incel means you either agree with misogyny or you aren’t bothered with misogyny. Which is effectively the same thing as agreeing with it.

If someone chooses a label, there are certain core things that by definition they must do or believe. If someone calls themselves a foodie, I would assume they like fine dining. If they said they only liked big macs and boxed mac’n cheese, one would probably think they aren’t really a foodie. If someone calls themselves a Star Wars fan, I’m going to go ahead and assume they’ve at least seen the original trilogy. Some generalizations are just common sense.

In other news, Wankstain’s company is being bailed out by… The chairman of Trump’s inaugural committee.

I wonder how this will be blamed on Hillary.

I’ll just touch on a few of the conversations here, my ducks. Sort of frantic over here. Today is stress day, apparently! Wheeeeee

I am sort of uncomfortable with America-bashing, purity-tests, and the like. Absolute statements trouble me, I suppose. We can be very eager to pounce on one another, so let’s pounce more like kitties than tigers, perhaps. We should be forgiving with ourselves and with each other.

@peak182,

Okay! I think I have figured this out. Im’a do a reply. TW for discussions of rape.

what about a woman who says yes to sex but that yes has been based on lies and manipulation. Is that rape, or is it scumbag behaviour for men like HW to get his own way? Just wondering

YES THAT IS RAPE

ahem

That’s what Weinstein did, repeatedly. That’s what so many do, repeatedly. Coerced sex isn’t sex, it’s rape.

There’s this popular culture vision of rape being a stranger pouncing on someone from the bushes or in a dark alley. That’s not it. It’s a guy you’ve gone out with a couple of times who’s being super pushy and won’t take no for an answer. It’s a boss who knows you really need this job. It’s a long term friend with hidden resentment and a bunch of unfounded assumptions.

You said Weinstein only manipulated women because he couldn’t get laid honestly. You don’t know that. There are lots of men who rape specifically because they want the feeling of power over someone. That’s why people have gotten cranky with you for talking about how incels want sex. It’s not about sex. It’s about power. About making someone helpless, about hurting them.

And that leads to what an “incel” is.

You seem to think that an incel is any guy who isn’t having sex, but would like to. That’s not what an incel is. An incel is a guy who is connected to the incel community – the Reddit community and its satellites. The community that blames women for their lack of sex, that hates women, that wants sexbots as abuse simulators, and who would use women that way if they could. That community came up with that term to describe themselves.

Membership in that community is the definition of an incel, not just “wanting sex but not getting it”. They like to think that any guy who’d like to have sex but isn’t right now is part of their gross little clique, but they’re wrong. Because there are lots of reasons for someone to be celibate but to want that to change. Lots of them! Most of them are totally fine! A very thin slice of them are awful.

If you’re one of those guys who isn’t having sex, but would like to – but you don’t blame women for the fact – then don’t call yourself an incel. You aren’t one. All you’re doing by using that term for yourself is tarring yourself with a very ugly brush, and reinforcing their beliefs that all celibate guys are in their ranks.

Anti troll kitteh
http://www.readersdigest.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/4-ways-cheer-up-depressed-cat.jpg

Also! Weinstein got kicked out of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences!

I personally dont like generalisations about groups of people tbh.

Generalizations about groups of people based on an arbitrary characteristic like their race or sexual orientation are bad. Generalizations about a group of people based on their beliefs and/or behaviors, which are directly tied to those beliefs and/or behaviors are perfectly fine. MGTOWS, Incels, and PUAs are misogynists. Every last one of them. That is demonstrated time and again with their actions and words. It’s not possible to hold the beliefs they do while still respecting women because the beliefs at the core of their philosophies are misogynistic in nature.

Honestly you sound like those people defending the Nazi that was punched in Seattle by saying, “but we don’t know he’s a Nazi!” even though he was wearing a Nazi armband.

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

I just want you to know that you are my intellectual hero, and I love reading your insights. You’re such a smart person, and you always lay things bare exactly where they need to be for people to look and see the real point at hand. Thank you. <3