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Harvey Weinstein, Smooth Talker: Today in Tweets

Huge creep

By David Futrelle

Another day, another batch of atrocities and embarrassments, from Donald Trump challenging his secretary of state to a public IQ-test bakeoff to the release of a vomit-inducing tape of Harvey Weinstein demonstrating his, er, pickup technique.

Let’s start with that one, huh, because it’s somehow even worse than it sounds — so much so that you may want to think twice before listening to it.

You can’t help but wonder how many dozens if not hundreds of times Weinstein has had similar, er, conversations with young, vulnerable women.

In other Harvey Weinstein news:

In non-Harvey Weinstein News That is Not Actually From The Onion, No Really, This is the World We Live in Today:

Still have not heard back from the White House on this one.

More news from the alternate reality we’re now stuck in: Melania Trump is feuding with Ivana Trump (yes, Ivana, not Ivanka) over who is the true First Lady.

https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/917450380044390400

Blurgledsvgpo4qwbwd.

https://twitter.com/pattymo/status/917583613918695424

https://twitter.com/lyssfame/status/917127717820153856

Now, cats:

https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/917260879430811648

Ok, some dogs too:

https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/917244228836691969

Ok, bye.

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Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/13/trump-scraps-healthcare-subsidies-obamacare

Fuckhead.

OTOH, he’s an overweight septuagenarian with a history of eating rich, who is currently experiencing a severe bout of work-related stress from all accounts. I think it’s a toss-up at this point which gets a thunderclap coronary first, him or the world economy.

Whichever one it is will no doubt set unpleasant dominoes in motion, though. The fuckhead’s followers include a lot of conspiracy theorists who would spread and accept the idea that it was a “deep state” assassination, leading to unrest, and the economy tanking (already baked into the cake at this point, we’ve already gone an unusually long time without a recession so we’re statistically overdue, and they did everything they could after the last one not to let the market truly correct itself, what with their bailouts and failure to spend countercyclically, so the economy’s been basically comatose and on life support since the last one, and they’re out of maneuvering room to use tricks like quantitative easing with interest rates as low as they are since ’08, or bailouts with public debt as high as it is since ’08 and the US’s credit rating downgraded to just AA — I don’t think they can stop the next one from turning into Great Depression II.

And of course one or both will likely happen just in time for the 2018 midterm elections.

Fun times! /s

(What’s nearly pure garbage, orange on top, and noxious throughout a huge area? A dumpster fire!)

AngrySince11/09/16
AngrySince11/09/16
3 years ago

I am no longer commenting here. Attacks about nothing happens daily. This isn’t David but his commenters. I love this site and it makes it sad but it is narrow what we can say even as women. My last comment about being proud of our military was attacked though I’m a feminist woman. My husband served in the USN for 25 years. Thank you for making me think this isn’t a good place. I won’t be coming back here. Sorry David, I love your words.

Ledasmom
Ledasmom
3 years ago

Hambeast, I’m so sorry. They never live long enough. Never.
We have had a rash of euthanasias at work, and it makes me wonder if I should even get another cat when we inevitably lose the ones we have.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

@Hambeast

So sorry about Catbeast. Take all the time you need.

Kidney disease has taken all three of my cats. The vet told me (with the second) that cats are such resilient animals that, by the time symptoms start to show, their kidneys are generally beyond help. I remembering being struck by a weird mix of despair and pride in my beloved kittie.

@GussieJives

Thirding the Spotlight recommendation. I’ve been thinking a lot about why the Weinstein shitstorm is different from previous similar revelations. I’m forced to conclude that it’s a perfect storm, largely based on the collision of number of testimonies/supportive statements from other women with the collective narrative in our culture having shifted. The traditional defences (“bad apple”, “spiteful attack because she didn’t get the role”, etc) aren’t working anymore. Much to the surprise of many big names, neither is choosing to stay silent. It’s going to take more than one example to change the culture permanently (would Weinstein have got this reaction without Trump and Cosby?), but I’m hopeful it might be a tipping point.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

I’m so sorry, Hambeast. It’s such a hard thing to deal with. Will break out an extra treat for our furry nonagenarian-equivalent 🙁

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ hambeast

So sorry to hear about that. Words always seem a bit inadequate but you have my sympathies.

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
3 years ago

Adding my sympathy, Hambeast. It hurts when it’s time for them to leave.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

Also I hope you’re feeling better, David – preferably now if not sooner, and if that’s not yet then as soon as may be :-s

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@peak182

In my opinion, for the most part you have to be presentable and attractive to be with an attractive women.

I thought we talked about this, peak182. Physical attraction is not the only thing women care about. It varies from one woman to another as to how high of a priority it is in their dating preferences. It’s almost as if women are individuals with different backgrounds, desires, and needs.

I have 1000000 more respect for Incels

I’m starting to get the feeling you identify with incels more than you identify with women.

(The NONE MYSOGINISTIC ONES)

We’ve definitely talked about this. Once again, a person cannot define themself by their lack of sexual experience as if it’s a hardship the collective women of the world have thrust upon them without being misogynistic. There is no such thing as a non-misogynistic incel.

and undateble men

Don’t do that. Would you classify a group of women as “undateable?” There’s no human who is “undateable.” There are humans who don’t ever date for a variety of reasons but none of those reasons are fixed and unchangeable.

Getting laid through scumbag behaviour and manipulation is fuck all to be proud of

Don’t call it getting laid. Don’t call it sex. Don’t call it 20 minutes of action. It’s rape. It’s sexual assault. Don’t lend it legitimacy by calling it anything else.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ AlanRobertshaw

Well that’s the end of Weinstein’s career. Hollywood just won’t countenance that sort of thing.

Hollywood’s not a sexual abuser… but it plays one in the movies….

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

Apologies to all, that was inappropriate

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
3 years ago

@Hambeast,

My condolences for your loss. Hopefully it will be a peaceful passing for your furface friend. 🙁

OT: Found this little pair of stories in my newspaper this morning:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2017/10/12/trump-slams-media-indiana-lawmaker-jim-lucas-threatens-license-johas-drafted-bill-license-journalist/757157001/

https://www.indystar.com/videos/news/2017/10/12/indiana-lawmaker-wants-abolish-handgun-licensing/94619342/

That second link is to a video (which I haven’t seen as of yet).

This local lawmaker’s argument is, in part “If you’re OK licensing my Second Amendment right, what’s wrong with licensing your First Amendment right?” and “Why wouldn’t I push for it? If one constitutional right is OK to license, then they all are.”

Guy’s pet issue is pushing for ‘permitless carry’, or as he calls it, ‘constitutional carry’, and may be using this proposed legislation (it hasn’t been filed yet) to make his point. Or this could be intended as something more sinister. Or it could be all of the above. Hard telling from ground level sometimes.

>.<

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Hambeast – I’m so sorry about your cat.

The Weinstein tape was hard to listen to. That sort of pushy, manipulating, guilt-tripping stuff would make me uneasy even if it wasn’t in a sexually predatory context. There’s another story on the radio right now about a Montreal actress being assaulted by Weinstein 15 years ago. 🙁

I’m OK but busy. A crisis at work delayed my supervisors from hiring another English tutor, so the new small-group ESL class got assigned to me at the last minute (okay, 1 day in advance). Intermediate ESL is fun, especially with a small group like that, but I’m already overwhelmed with things to do.

peak182
peak182
3 years ago

@Kupo

Thanks for the Reply,

Would manipulating women to have consensual sex be rape? Just curious. I am a male and I dont know much about feminism, but I have my views on things, hence I comment. Either way HW was a scumbag. And Yes, I identify with men who cant get laid more than I do with women, But I am waaaay more sympathetic towards women who are treated badly by men than men who simply cant get laid.

I disagree about the non-mysoginistic incel. What about a guy who cant get laid , calls himself INCEL, blames himself and himself only, but loves his female family members and accepts that women can make their own choices too? Is that misoginistic.

I agree though, defining youself by something you are shite at and never going to achieve is not good for anyone. I am a virgin who cant get laid. But I am also shite at Golf, I dont go around calling myself “Shit-Golfer”. I think the human mind tends to drift off and obssess over things they cant get (sex in INCELS case) rather than appreciate the good things they have and build on them. Sounds crazy, but I bet if these INCELS had a good look at themselves, they are luckier than they think (Good family, healthy to even start with!)

As for looks/personality thing and undatables stuff, Id rather leave it out, if you want to discuss with me, I would love to somewhere else maybe.

I know this isnt really a debate forum, but I like to have discussions and see what you views are. Peace

@Hamsbeat

I am very sorry for your loss. Remember the good times going forward, time is a healer

peak182
peak182
3 years ago

And no, I do not fucking condone manipulation of women. No no no.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

@Peak

In my opinion, for the most part you have to be presentable and attractive to be with an attractive women.

Nope.

I have 1000000 more respect for Incels (The NONE MYSOGINISTIC ONES) and undateble men than that manipulative piece of shit

Hell no. Also, the only “undateable” people are those who makes themselves so.

Getting laid through scumbag behaviour and manipulation is fuck all to be proud of

It’s rape, not ‘getting laid’.

3 strikes, you’re out. Go join your friends back at incel headquarters.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m so sorry about kitty, Hambeast. Hugs.

Not really on topic to any of the conversations going on now, but has anyone seen The Death and Life of Marsha P Johnson yet? It’s on Netflix. It’s not a particularly easy and fun watch and it might be triggering for trans women to watch but it is really good. It also goes into Sylvia Riviera’s life quite a bit and features a righteous rant she did at a gay rights rally in the 70s. She demanded intersectionality in the movement and got booed for it. It was a really powerful speech but so depressing to see the reception it got. Anyway, I really recommend the movie. I never watch enough documentaries.

In my opinion, for the most part you have to be presentable and attractive to be with an attractive women.

It is true that looks aren’t everything to everyone and not everyone is attracted to conventionally attractive looks. It’s also true that because women are socialized to looks past appearances much, much, much more than men are, the majority of couples that are mismatched in terms of conventional attractiveness has the hot woman + average man combo rather than the hot man + average woman combo.

But it annoys me that we (and I include myself in this) always feel compelled to point that out. If a particular man can’t attract super gorgeous women, so what? It’s not a political problem. Not dating a woman with model looks isn’t oppression. It’s barely even a personal problem as lots of men wind up happily partnered with women who aren’t conventionally beautiful. It’s also not a gendered problem. Contrary to popular belief among men, every woman on earth doesn’t have her pick of men no matter where she is on the conventional attractiveness scale. Not to mention how heteronormative these conversations always are.

Nobody is obligated to find you attractive. This goes for people of all genders and orientations. C’est la vie.

I have 1000000 more respect for Incels

(The NONE MYSOGINISTIC ONES)

Kupo already covered why choosing the label is inherently misogynistic. I’m going to add to that and let you and other sad boner whiners know that it’s also misogynistic to come into a feminist space that will invariably be heavily populated with female commenters and whinge about straight men not being to get dates/sex with beautiful women and how hard it is not to be a handsome hunk.

First of all, we’re not your mommy. Not only are women not obligated to be attracted to any given man, we’re also not obligated to soothe you and give you advice. Of course, we have lots of male commenters here that are valued and that the women here are happy to listen to and sympathize with. The difference is, they don’t turn conversations about misogyny or any other kind of oppression all about them and their boners.

Second of all, our society judges women based on our looks so much more than men. I’m not saying that men are never unfairly judged by their appearance but it is not even close to the level that we’re scrutinized. It’s not just when it comes to dating and sex that we’re harshly judged for our looks. It’s every aspect of our lives. A lot of men don’t even want us to exist in public if we don’t please their boners. Remember the time that female local news anchor chastised a man on air for sending her a letter complaining that she dared to be on television even while not being thin. Or the time some douchebag reviewer wrote a negative review of an opera singer because she was too fat for his boner tastes? Since when were men expected to be hot in order to his job?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ WWTH

OT but I was just listening to my favourite hurdy gurdy player when this popped up, which you may like.

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
3 years ago

Hambeast, I’m so so sorry. Thinking of you and your husbeast today.

I have 1000000 more respect for Incels (The NONE MYSOGINISTIC ONES)

Oh yeah, all the non-misogynistic straight men who refer to themselves as “involuntarily celibate.” Take so hot I wish it would light itself on fire.

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
3 years ago

Since when were men expected to be hot in order to his job?

Partner’s collegues – she’s cabin crew. 😛 If you aren’t good looking don’t bother applying.

Thats about the only job where looks matter for “reasons” that I know of for men though.

(Put reasons in quotes because yes, male models and actors tend to be on the good looking side as a matter of course, but it’s part of the job description in their case and not an extra requirement, as it is for so many women in more normal jobs. Receptionists, anyone?)

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

What’s cabin crew?

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
3 years ago

Think you call them flight attendants?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Well yeah, I’m obviously not including jobs where looks are part of the job. That’s kind of missing the point.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Well yeah, I’m obviously not including jobs where looks are part of the job. That’s kind of missing the point.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

side note: some male models and a lot of actors can also get hired because they look interesting, not good. Loads of character actors, and they mostly tend to be men.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Weinstein’s Termination For Sexual Misconduct May Have Violated His Contract

The terms of the contract cast doubt on The Weinstein Company’s claims that any “suggestion that the Board had knowledge of this conduct is false.”

http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/harvey-weinstein-sexual-misconduct-violated-contract/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_2bd6cff0b02b11e78240a3a6bbddd67d

What the fuck?!

Christina Nordlander, Keyboard Battlesister
Christina Nordlander, Keyboard Battlesister
3 years ago

@Hambeast: I am so sorry. There’s nothing more I can say. I’ve been there myself, and it never gets any easier.

@Gussie Jives: way late, but I’d recommend you to watch more Venture Brothers. It kind of starts out as discrete episodes parodying children’s adventure cartoons, but it grows a lot more plot arcs as it goes on. Kind of a comedy/soap-opera/adventure series. And the latest season is among the best so far, IMO.

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
3 years ago

The terms of the contract cast doubt on The Weinstein Company’s claims that any “suggestion that the Board had knowledge of this conduct is false.”

Weinstein was one of the founders, wasn’t he? So he basically wrote that contract – and no one on the board picked up on it as a almost free licence to be a disgustingly abusive waste of oxygen?

Yeah, right.

Edit – changed a mild word which could have been taken as minimising his actions.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@Hambeast

Sorry to hear about Catbeast. 🙁 Been there before… it’s tough.

@Redsilk

*sigh* Slavery was the worst mistake the Founding Fathers made. The Second Amendment was the second worst. The vague wording was just ripe to be exploited.

Another aspect to Spotlight that I’ve been thinking about is how a newcomer approaches this kind of heavy subject matter and what it reveals about people you think you know and you realize it’s closer than you think. The scene where Keaton and Ruffalo fill in John Slattery’s Ben Bradlee Jr. on the sheer number of priests involved comes to mind and I have to imagine that a lot of people (read: men) learning the facts for the first time had the same reaction to the Weinstein story:

Ben Bradlee Jr.: Ninety fucking priests?! In Boston?!
Robby: That’s what he said.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: If there were 90 of these bastards, people would know!
Mike Rezendes: Maybe they do.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: And no one said a thing?
Mike Rezendes: Good Germans.
Ben Bradlee Jr.: I don’t think that’s a comparison you want to make publicly.

But as Stanley Tucci says later in the film:

Mitchell Garabedian: This city, these people… making the rest of us feel like we don’t belong. But they’re no better than us. Look at how they treat their children. Mark my words, Mr. Rezendes. If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one.

He could just as easily be talking about Hollywood. It takes a whole industry to keep an open secret like Harvey Weinstein out of the press. Plenty of women already know a Harvey Weinstein in their lives and understand what women like Rose McGowan are going through. But what this case has that something like the Church abuse cases don’t is celebrity involvement, and I have to believe that this will keep reporters on this story for months and it’s going to force people to recognize some uncomfortable truths about the performers they think they’ve come to know. Which of their favourite actresses was assaulted by him. Which of their favourite actors covered it up. In the celebrity-obsessed social media world we live in, I really think this has the potential to clue people in much like the Spotlight team was.

The defense tactics will of course be to blame women (as it always is) and they’re already working that angle as best they can. I don’t think it’s going to work; the story stains too many people for it to be swept away. The only worry I have is if indifference sets in from the standpoint of the public; Trump’s vile actions didn’t cost him the election as it would in a sensible world. Assuming the reports do their jobs, I don’t see that happening a second time.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

@Gussie

Trump’s vile actions didn’t cost him the election as it would in a sensible world. Assuming the reports do their jobs, I don’t see that happening a second time.

It’s actually worse than that. Trump’s vile actions are exactly what got him the 53 million or so votes that he got.

U.S society is bubonic plague level sick.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Hambeast, I’m so sorry :C That’s such a hard thing to go through. I am glad at least that your kitty was able to get medication to avoid being in pain. <3

#Weinstein is a piece of garbage, so I'm entirely unsurprised that he'd wave around his contract to say "See, I'm allowed!” in reaction to his firing. Any humility, guilt or morality these assholes ever show is just that – a show. Like his therapy. He’s going to a ranch to drink beer and bitch about how hard it is being a millionaire producer. I hope he’s so toxic that no one ever touches him again, professionally or otherwise. I just know that after a couple of months he’ll be right back in those Hollywood parties, though. All those other rich asshole producers are no doubt thinking “that coulda been me”. They won’t ostracize him for a moment longer than the public demands it.

@peak182, siiiigh

I mean, WWTH and kupo said it all already, but I mean, really. The term “incel”, or “involuntary celibate” implies that they really want to have sex – so much that they make that their identifying factor. It also implies that they are not receiving sex, despite their desire for it. It puts the blame for their lack of sex on someone other than themselves.

Guess what group of people that someone else is?

They’re just another flavour of MRA, excusing their rape fantasies with “but I really want it! Really really! And it’s their fault I’m not gettin’ it!”

And let’s be honest here, that’s part of the playbook of every MRA/misogynist. Every time you hear someone say “Boys will be boys” or “He’s just a teenager, don’t ruin his future” or “just look at how she was dressed, can you blame him?” you’re hearing the exact same excuse the incels give. Women as sex objects.

Incels want a world in which women are sex objects, and they’re upset that they aren’t receiving their fair share. Like the saying – in the game of sexism, women aren’t the opposing team, they’re the ball.

Think about it and reply, @peak182. Let us know if you see what we’re saying or if we’ve “missed some important piece.”

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Catching up…

@Gussie

Slavery was the worst mistake the Founding Fathers made. The Second Amendment was the second worst

You don’t whoops your way into accidentally writing black, chattel slavery into your Constitution, nor for empowering and arming militias to hunt black, chattel slaves. Let’s be careful about that “mistake” business

@peak

In my opinion, for the most part you have to be presentable and attractive to be with an attractive women

This same shit again. Yes, you hafta be attractive. TO. HER. That’s it. And not even necessarily in the hunky sense

The NONE MYSOGINISTIC ONES

Yeah, like… Uhm… There’s uhhh… Whatsisface… Nope, none come to mind -_-

Getting laid through scumbag behaviour and manipulation is fuck all to be proud of

Why are people proud to get laid anyway? I mean, besides toxic patriarchal bullshit that is…

@booburry

Am I way off base or is it really fucking annoying that they couldn’t fill that spot with a woman? Maybe a fresh perspective?

You’re right on base, and there’s nothing fresh about Bernie Sanders’ perspective. On much of anything, I find, but especially not when it relates to women. He really should politely refuse this one. Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren are right the fuck there, people!

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Axe

Why are people proud to get laid anyway? I mean, besides toxic patriarchal bullshit that is…

That’s a really good point. Reaching a level of intimacy with another person isn’t really a thing to be proud of and it’s treated like a status symbol for men but a negative mark or embarrassment for women. It completely ignores ace people and there’s this weird assumption that gay and no people are sluts. We really shouldn’t be reinforcing that kind of toxic mindset.

peak182
peak182
3 years ago

Ive replied to Kupo and I would like to hear your opinions on the reply

What if an INCEL blames himself and hates himself for the lack of sex he is getting? Not all love shy people hate women. The INCELS who are dont hate women steeer 10000000000000 miles away from reddit

And I agree that men arent entitled to sex, love or anything else. 100000000000000000000 % agree that INCELS dont deserve sex just because they desire it. Same with me. Ill say it again, feeling that women owe you sex is WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

All I am saying is you can be (or feel like) a helpless virgin who feels (or is undatable) who respects women and isnt entitled. Ive seen people like that before and there are lots of them out there if you look past reditt/4 chan shitfest.

And I dont want advice tbh.

The word “INCEL” isnt misogonistic on its own. Its their disgusting comments and awful attitude to women WHICH IS.

And MRA are a bunch of whinging little boys who act like they have barely passed puberty. Bunch of Idiots. Like the majority of Online INCELS

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@Axecalibur

Fair cop, fair cop. “Worst aspect of society they upheld,” maybe?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Channel 4 news here is doing a series of interviews with Hillary Clinton. Worth a watch.

https://www.channel4.com/news/

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Looks like Peak is in moderation because some more comments have shown up.

I identify with men who cant get laid more than I do with women,

Yeah, that’s obvious. But why can’t you identify with women? Do you think we’re a separate species? What about women who can’t get laid? Do you realize that they do exist?

I disagree about the non-mysoginistic incel. What about a guy who cant get laid , calls himself INCEL, blames himself and himself only, but loves his female family members and accepts that women can make their own choices too? Is that misoginistic.

Okay, Kupo’s point apparently sailed right over your head.

Here’s a hint. What two words is “incel” a portmanteau of? Involuntarily celibate. The celibacy is involuntarily. As if it was something done to him by women rather than the result of bad fortune and/or his own bad choices. If you’re saying that your celibacy is involuntary, you’re saying that it’s something that women foist upon you. That is in and of itself misogynistic no matter how much lip service some incels might pay to women having the right to make our own choices. Men shouldn’t even have to think about it and accept that women can have preferences and choices of our own. It should be a given. Just as it is for men. Because we’re people.

I’m not inclined to give men any points for loving female family members either. It’s very common for misogynistic men to love the women they think of theirs. Although these men often think of them in very sexist ways. Jim Bob Duggar would surely say he loves his daughters. Yet he covered up his son’s sexual abuse of them and coerced them into forgiving and defending him. I also have a feeling that a lot of incels are the types of sons who expect mommy to do their chores for them and constantly dote on and validate them. Misogynists never fully exempt the women they “love” from their misogyny.

I am a virgin who cant get laid.

I mean, you don’t have to share personal info if you don’t want to but I generally side eye the word “can’t.” I thought the same way my first year at college when I was virgin. But looking back on it, I didn’t actually do anything about my unwanted virginal state. I didn’t actually put myself out there and flirt with guys. Until I did. Lo and behold! I did eventually get laid.

If you look at incel forums, they hate being offered advice on how to meet women. They hate suggestions that they go to therapy and work on their insecurities. They also tend to only want to have sex with young, conventionally attractive virgins and they want these young women to throw themselves at them.

As for looks/personality thing and undatables stuff, Id rather leave it out, if you want to discuss with me, I would love to somewhere else maybe.

You’re the one who brought it up. Own your words.

peak182
peak182
3 years ago

Involuntary Celibacy can also mean that the guy isnt good enough. Nothing done to him by women. Would you say female INCELS hate men then?

I have personally gave on on getting laid and accepted it. Nothing agaisnt women at all. Its tough fucking shit. No one owes me sex, thats how life goes. There will always be things I can do, there will be things Icant do. The human mind, as I said before, can make you obssess with things you cant get (sex/date in my case) rather than appreciating things you can get (I.e, degree, friends, family)

I stand by my statement, some male INCELS (maybe the 1% minority who dont go on reddit ranting, dont feel like women have oppressed him or owe him something). Some men feel like the celibacy is involuntary because of bad genetics, bad luck..ect. No blame attached to women. I dont believing in tarring everyone with the same brush

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
3 years ago

When I was young, I wondered what ‘mature wisdom’ would be like.

One example of it happening was when I realized that ‘I want my life to be different without having to change anything’ wasn’t a productive, useful or realistic attitude.

I’ve worked hard to change a lot of things, and my life is different now. Overall, much better. My suspicion that it would require focused effort on an ongoing basis turned out to be correct, but it’s definitely been worth it.

Incels are almost defined by, among other things, the conviction that their lives can only get better if *other people* change.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

AngrySince11/09/16,

I’m sorry, and I understand completely. I wish you well.

Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
3 years ago

@Hambeast

I’m so sorry. Take as long as you need to heal. Something like that happened with our Skinnybrat two years ago out of the blue and it hurt like hell. The Coconut is seventeen and in good fettle but she’s got stage 2 CRF and I’m never forgetting the clock is running out for her too.

Be good to yourself. They matter too.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I understand completely.

Really? Because I’m confused.

I scanned the comments for about a page and a half before that comment and saw only discussion of TV and movies and condolences for Hambeast about her cat. I saw no attacks. I remember the argument she referred to, but that was months ago.

That flounce came out of nowhere and those always feel manipulative to me. Either announce you’re leaving during a disagreement or just stop commenting. Why just be like “you’re all mean and I’m leaving!” out of the blue unless it’s a ploy to make people feel bad or start a fight or something?

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
3 years ago

WWTH,

Yes. I understand completely.

I am not going to pretend that I know her motivations for announcing it this way, (I certainly wouldn’t do it that way, I just post less) but yes, I understand.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

@GussieJives

I read “mistake” as meaning “thing”. Enough said.

Again, re Spotlight, I totally agree that often a new perspective can throw a whole situation open. If Spotlight teaches us anything, though, it’s that the same people can take a different approach, given the room for a different perspective. Yes, an Armenian and a Jew are pivotal, but you need the community to do the digging.

The motto I took away from the film (I forget if it’s an exact quote) was: if it takes a village to raise a child, it also takes a village to molest one. Outsiders can point out the emperor has no clothes, but only the crowd can see it.

ETA The thing I was left screaming at the screen on my first watch was “it was Catholic kids!” Don’t even.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

I understand, too. Not what brought up that particular timing, but the sentiment behind it? Yes.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Would manipulating women to have consensual sex be rape? Just curious. I am a male and I dont know much about feminism, but I have my views on things, hence I comment. Either way HW was a scumbag.

Yes. If someone doesn’t want to have sex with you and you have sex with them anyway, that’s rape. Just curious, what are you doing here if you’re not feminist? I don’t mean that in an accusatory way; I know tone can come off weird in text. I’m genuinely curious.

And Yes, I identify with men who cant get laid more than I do with women,

I said incel, specifically. Incels are not ‘men who cannot get laid’; they are people who believe that women not offering them sex is a personal attack against them. That you interpret incel in such a favorable light shows you do, in fact, identify with them to some extent.

But I am waaaay more sympathetic towards women who are treated badly by men than men who simply cant get laid.

Are you? You’re obsessed with this idea of men not getting laid. You first came here on an incel post defending the ‘good’ ones and then you bring them up on this thread when no one else was even discussing them.

I disagree about the non-mysoginistic incel. What about a guy who cant get laid , calls himself INCEL, blames himself and himself only, but loves his female family members and accepts that women can make their own choices too? Is that misoginistic.

Yes.

I agree though, defining youself by something you are shite at and never going to achieve is not good for anyone.

True.

I am a virgin who cant get laid.

Can’t you?

But I am also shite at Golf, I dont go around calling myself “Shit-Golfer”. I think the human mind tends to drift off and obssess over things they cant get (sex in INCELS case) rather than appreciate the good things they have and build on them.

This is called confirmation bias. It’s possible to overcome with work, but you have to actually do that work.

Sounds crazy,

Comments policy.

but I bet if these INCELS had a good look at themselves, they are luckier than they think (Good family, healthy to even start with!)

That’s a given.

As for looks/personality thing and undatables stuff, Id rather leave it out, if you want to discuss with me, I would love to somewhere else maybe.

As WWTH pointed out, you brought it up.

I know this isnt really a debate forum, but I like to have discussions and see what you views are. Peace

How about you find a place that actually is about debate rather than coming into feminist spaces and feeling sorry for people who want us dead or enslaved?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I tend to be oblivious to these types of things, but if there’s some sort of issue that a lot of people are having with the way things are with the culture here, than I think it’s best to confront it now before it turns into a huge dramatic mass exodus like we’ve had a couple of other times. It never comes to a good end when things are left to fester. If I’m part of the problem I would want to know about it so I can change it. Anyway, being upfront about is the only way it’s gonna change in general.

I’d hate to lose a lot of good people over a problem that may very well be fixable. I know it’s not always easy to confront issues but I hope people are willing to at some point. It’s the healthiest way. We had a big blowup a couple of years ago about dogpiling over ableist talk but David put it in the comments policy and asked people to just point to that and it really helped.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

There is a certain … I don’t know what to call it, maybe “received wisdom” regarding the proper and correct way to be feminist and/or progressive. One particular thing that comes to mind because Angry brought it up, is the idea that we must hate the United States and all aspects of the US state because of [reason]. [reason] might be any or all of the many legitimately bad things that the US has done, collectively as a society or as a unitary state. For a while there was even a thing going around about how citizens of the US are not entitled to be called Americans because of reasons related to the name of the two continents, but I got pretty ticked about that one time and I haven’t seen it for a while.

I have feelings about this. I don’t hate the United States and it makes me uncomfortable when other people seem to compete with one another with how hard to slam it. It looks performative to me at times. The US is the Big Bad of the world and is like that one character on every TV show that everyone loves to hate. The US is faaaar from perfect, but I’m a political scientist by education and I know that states are moral actors only imperfectly, and no state is exempt from that. EVERY state that comes into some kind of great-power status ALWAYS abuses that power, and Tiny Country Victimized By America #28 would behave exactly the same way if it were to come into power, and probably already has on a smaller scale vs. whatever ethnic or religious minority it has at hand. Guaranteed. The US is not some kind of unique evil in the world.

But there is a received wisdom that you’re not doing progressivism properly if you think the US is actually kind of OK, or god forbid that you’re proud of any aspect of it. You have to think that every current and historical sin committed by the US is mortal and the US has no redeeming features whatsoever, or else you’re not really a progressive. I personally think that’s nonsense and I think I’m the most important kind of patriot – the kind that knows there are problems and who works to fix them, in the way that only someone who loves a broken thing can fix it. My country is broken and needs fixing. Someone who hates it won’t and can’t do that. There’s a certain degree of privilege required to take that attitude – I recognize that, and I think that makes it all the more important that I do take that attitude, because I do have the privilege to make that choice where others may not be able to make the same choice.

That’s just one example and the one that comes most readily to mind, but there are others.

There are some core values that, legit, you can’t be a progressive or feminist and believe X at the same time. There is a lot of penumbra around that umbra of core values that IMHO could use a little more open discussion and a little less purity-testing. I can’t speak for Angry or for PeeVee, but I personally stay out of a lot of threads because there is too much purity-testing going on and I don’t want to pick that battle today.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

peak182 says:

I am a male and I dont know much about feminism, but I have my views on things, hence I comment. […] I know this isnt really a debate forum, but I like to have discussions and see what you views are.

There’s nothing about having views that requires you to share them. In fact, it shows contempt for others when you aggressively impose your uninformed opinions on them. If you want to find out others’ views, then you can just listen to them. If you prefer to have “debates” (ie. actively put yourself in opposition to others’ views), then what you’re really seeking is attention, not understanding.

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
3 years ago

PoM:

You pretty much nailed it, so thank you.