By David Futrelle
In the wake of every mass shooting, we hear the inevitable cries from NRA types not to “politicize” the tragedy by pointing out the obvious fact that stricter gun laws would make such tragedies less likely in the future. We watch the trolls and shitlords of the alt-right flood the internet with disinformation and conspiracy theories. These reactions are now as predictable as the reappearance of the sun on the horizon every morning.
The internet’s incels — the bitter fringe-dwellers who consider their “involuntary celibacy” to be a crime against their humanity — have their own predictable responses to such tragedies: they mock the victims as “normies” deserving death — and try as best as they can to adopt the latest mass killer as one of their own.
In the case of last night’s horrific mass shooting in Las Vegas — a massacre that at last count left 59 dead and more than 500 injured — Reddit’s incels did not disappoint on this front. In a number of different threads devoted to the murders, regulars on the Incels subreddit celebrated the death of “normies” and “chads” and even tried to claim that mass killer Stephen Paddock — a man with a girlfriend, and thus decidedly not an incel — was “a depressed and delusional former Chad turned to oldcel.”
For many in the subreddit, the news of the mass shooting was something of an inspiration. In a thread offering faux condolences for the dozens of “normies [who] just got fragged in Las Vegas,” several commenters had similar ideas:
Those calling for basic human decency got an earful from their fellow incels.
![lonelyrommel1998 32 points 3 hours ago RIP . Please my brothers, be civil during this time of tragedy. I know you guys hate anyone that isnt you, but they are human beings nonetheless permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]novalueinvictimhoodhttps://goo.gl/2yvNyj 2 points 44 minutes ago they are human beings So? Being a modern human being is the greatest crime you can commit. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]wandercampEmbracing the sublime terror of incel existance -3 points an hour ago Fuck off normie I fapped to that video permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]fuck-women-everyday23 KV Approachcel Hopecel Knowledgecel -2 points an hour ago Las Vegas is normie heaven. People go there for drinks, socializing, one night stands, and gambling. Incels will never experience that.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm3.png?resize=580%2C636&ssl=1)
In another thread, Reddit’s incels lashed out at the “normies” expressing sympathy for the victims on social media — and at the alleged “degeneracy” of Las Vegas.
![BlackPill4831yo bald manlet escortcel 卐 'Self improvement is masturbation' 10 points 3 hours ago I hate all this 'competitive grief' on social media. They don't give a fuck about the homeless, jobless and sexless. permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]Bojack101 6 points 3 hours ago The degenerate las vegas city deserved it](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm6.png?resize=517%2C459&ssl=1)
![BlackPillRevolutionWeAreRevolting | Copernicus | ?NormiesCanAllBurn?| Hate 5 points 3 hours ago All virtue-signalling and posting it all over instawhore or fakebook to show how much they "care" just to fit in the rest of the conformitard sheep who do the same thing permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]touchbutt2Women can't be lonely. women can't be depressed. can't be incel 4 points 4 hours ago Exactly. they can call us evil all they want but at least we are honest. The entire degenrate city of las vegas and everyone in it could die and it wouldn't affect my day in any way](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm4.png?resize=517%2C724&ssl=1)
The subreddit’s regulars found it much easier to identify with the shooter.
Still, it’s unlikely that Paddock, a 64-year-old retiree who apparently lived with a girlfriend, will be embraced by incels as another Elliot Rodger, the incel mass murderer celebrated as a “saint” and “supreme gentleman” by this despicable crowd. But that didn’t stop some from trying to posthumously recruit Paddock to inceldom, none more ingeniously than this fellow.
It’s a bit of a reach, given that pretty much the only things we seem to know for sure about Paddock is that he was neither a former Chad nor an incel. I guess the Incels subreddit regulars are a little hard up for, er, “heroes” these days.
@Skeptic
Still waiting to hear how you know that the average 4chan poster is not a rapist.
Quick! Before you’re banned.
At this point, I’m no longer sure if incels mean the lives at risk due to the lack of sex are their own lives or others’.
It’s others lives. They will kill if they are not given everything they want 😀
You have no evidence that anyone who makes rape jokes is not also a rapist. At best they are rape enablers, which is bad enough, but to give a blanket pass on them for their behavior when you know jack-all about what they do in their lives is not the position an actual skeptic would take.
What mechanism, exactly, makes these mutually exclusive and prevents both from being true?
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
How do you tell the difference between someone ironically advocating for the rape and subjugation of women, and someone who earnestly believes it? Because I can’t tell. Neither can the onlooking lurkers, largely young men, whose ideas about what constitutes acceptable male-female relations are subtly being nudged further into the realm of horrifying with every shitpost they read.
Here, let me answer my own question. If you disagree with what they’re saying, it’s Irony; if you agree, it’s Deadly Serious. It’s the ol’ Schrodinger’s Asshole defense, beloved by edgelords and their apologists, which allows them to simultaneously harm people and evade responsibility.
Funny how those seem to be the twin goals of alt-right men in all walks of life, from the Orange Cretin down to the humblest basement dweller.
@Kat –
There were about 70,000 men convicted of sexual assault in 2012, while estimates of the number of active 4chan users (as opposed to the number of page visits) is about 10,000,000, depending on who you ask.
Even if every single rapist in America was a 4chan user, only about about 0.7% of 4chan users would be rapists.
To be sure, rape is underreported, but on the other hand not all rapists are on 4chan. One could play with the numbers a bit up or down, but there is no way more than a small percentage of 4chan users could possibly be rapists.
@Skeptic:
You are defending hateful, threatening speech because you believe the speaker is not going to follow through??? This is unacceptable.
Jesus fucking christ
Only a small percentage of sharks actually attack humans, therefore if Skeptic refuses to swim with them, then Skeptic is being unreasonable….
E.T.A. please, Skeptic, go swim with the sharks. I have yet to see you make a valid argument. Saying “you can’t PROVE I’m wrong” does not make an argument valid. You’re not (I believe) a five-year-old.
Holy shit, I had no idea that rape only ever occurred in 2012 and in no other year! How amazing! I’m glad that epidemic is over.
Or perhaps is a rapist only considered a rapist if they raped someone within one year?
Because 4chan has been around since 2003 and if we assume that only rapes that occur during that period of activity count (I.e. That rapists using 4chan can only be considered “bad” if they raped someone AFTER joining 4chan), and that only rapes that receive convictions count, and that the 70,000 number is an annual average (where did you get that number from, by the way? Does it only cover the USA, while 4chan users come from all over the world?), that gives us about a million rapists. Or 1 in 10 4chan users.
Well, I suppose that 10% is still a minority, so they probably don’t count.
Excusing and apologizing, which is what 4chan and others do when they do their edgelord irony meme jokes they do is, for rape and assault and racism still makes you an active participant in rape, assault and racism culture.
So, Skeptic, how many women have you raped?
Because you wouldn’t be trying to hand-wave away rape with bad maths if you weren’t a rapist yourself.
I was answering a question from someone asking what is the moral difference was between a “genuine” incel and a troll. The difference is that one will not rape or kill. Both are bad people, but the troll is not AS BAD as the rapist. One only speaks; the other also rapes.
But, I fail to see why pointing out that of two bad people, one is worse, is “defending” either of them. Attempted murder is not as bad as actual murder; is that a “defense” of attempted murder?
@Skeptic
0.7%? Fucking hell, I wouldn’t be saying “oh, there’s only a 1 in 150 chance they’re a rapist”, I’d be asking “why are you hanging out with every single rapist in america?”
Consider the difference between “probability that random person X is a rapist” and “probability that random person X is a rapist, given that they frequent a website that encourages hatred and objectification of women and thinks that rape is funny“.
If sex offenders are overrepresented in a particular group, you treat that group with some serious fucking suspicion because it very clearly represents an increased level of danger. We don’t all live in a criminal trial; this isn’t about “innocent until proven guilty”.
@skeptic
When you’re coming into a discussion about how a bunch of people convicted of attempted murder are talking about how much they REALLY want to murder someone, (and when an unknown number of those people likely have already murdered someone), and you say “Well, yes, attempted murdered is bad, but it’s not like these guys (who I feel pity for) have ACTUALLY murdered someone. And murder is way worse than just attempted murder, you have to admit. So we should give them a break.”, then yes, you are defending attempted murder.
Are you… Are you Richard Dawkins? Is that what’s happening right now?
@Viscaria
Are you… Are you Richard Dawkins? Is that what’s happening right now?
He’s no where near wordy and self satisfied enough. 😛 Got the obtuseness down pat though.
Isn’t that exactly how Sideshow Bob defended himself on The Simpsons?
>>>>> I think it is obvious why Skeptic is defending 4chan, rapists, and other assorted scumlords so vigorously.
>>>>> Look how he chooses to quote people.
Skeptic, do you truly believe that the number of sexual assault convictions = the number of sexual assaults that actually occur? Or are you trying to tell us something a little more troubling about yourself?
That’s just the US. There’s no reason to believe that it’s significantly better in other countries though.
The only way women can best protect ourselves from rape is to listen to what men say about rape. Or about women in general. And avoid the men who talk like a 4chan troll. Or even like you.
That sex that men so tragically get deprived of even though they desperately need it? They’d probably get more of it if women didn’t have to constantly keep our guard up and have to analyze men’s behavior to try and figure out whether or not they’re actually safe to be alone with. That’s not the best reason for more men to oppose rape culture, but it is a real one.
Source for the graphic
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
English perspective here. Nothing to suggest the figures are that much different from the US.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B55TSEUu1Sn2MkxlaHpkUzZ0c1k/view?usp=drivesdk
ETA: we’ve tweaked the law a bit in relation to proving consent or lack of in certain circumstances which has improved things a bit.
Canadian here. Slutwalks started because of what a Canadian chief of police said about rape victims looking like sluts.
Australia: I have no idea what the official statistics are, but I do know that of the dozens of Aussie rape victims I’ve met, I’m the only one who saw justice.
Skeptic, you’re a symptom of something that the broader internet really needs to come to grips with. Deploying irony takes calculation and it takes context. For example, Edmund Blackadder lamenting the good old days of being a soldier for the British Empire where the opposition was “two feet tall and armed with dried grass,” until “a four-and-a-half million heavily-armed Germans hoved into view.” The series makes it clear over and over again that Blackadder is the joke, particularly when he ends up with his underwear on his head and pencils in his nose feigning madness. There was no ambiguity that the showrunners were critiquing Britain’s colonialism and the desire for overseas territory bringing the Great War upon the world and deliberately crafted the absurdity and satire to that end.
Contrasting that with some doofus on an image board making gas chamber or sexual assault jokes where the context is one of “this is where the actual-factual Neo-Nazis go to recruit”, it’s a little tougher chalk up to absurdist humour, isn’t it?
In short, if anybody finds themselves resorting to the excuse “it was just a joke” when it’s pointed out that the awful thing they said was awful, that’s a sign of comedy failure. Those actually invested in making people laugh would take stock and adjust accordingly. If that’s not taking place, then that tells me that their goal isn’t comedy, but something far darker.
Make no mistake, Channers are banking on the benefit of the doubt of modern society to operate. The kind of benefit of the doubt that says “wait, he can’t really mean he wants to kill all the normies… that seems extreme enough to be ludicrous!” Well, unlike the showrunner of a broadcast sitcom, we don’t have the luxury of just accepting “just jokes LOL” as an excuse. Because we don’t know! They act and talk just like the real thing! I don’t know what’s “in their hearts” and frankly their intent is irrelevant in the face of a refusal to self-reflect. So I can only assume they sympathize with the viewpoint they’re putting forth, at least somewhat. And “somewhat” is too much when it comes to subjects this dreadful.
@Alan
Our prosecution and conviction rates in the UK are higher, thankfully.
Unfortunately, I seem to recall the reporting rate in the UK is lower than in the USA. (Note: working from memory of a two year old article there, so take with many grains of salt.)