By David Futrelle
In the wake of every mass shooting, we hear the inevitable cries from NRA types not to “politicize” the tragedy by pointing out the obvious fact that stricter gun laws would make such tragedies less likely in the future. We watch the trolls and shitlords of the alt-right flood the internet with disinformation and conspiracy theories. These reactions are now as predictable as the reappearance of the sun on the horizon every morning.
The internet’s incels — the bitter fringe-dwellers who consider their “involuntary celibacy” to be a crime against their humanity — have their own predictable responses to such tragedies: they mock the victims as “normies” deserving death — and try as best as they can to adopt the latest mass killer as one of their own.
In the case of last night’s horrific mass shooting in Las Vegas — a massacre that at last count left 59 dead and more than 500 injured — Reddit’s incels did not disappoint on this front. In a number of different threads devoted to the murders, regulars on the Incels subreddit celebrated the death of “normies” and “chads” and even tried to claim that mass killer Stephen Paddock — a man with a girlfriend, and thus decidedly not an incel — was “a depressed and delusional former Chad turned to oldcel.”
For many in the subreddit, the news of the mass shooting was something of an inspiration. In a thread offering faux condolences for the dozens of “normies [who] just got fragged in Las Vegas,” several commenters had similar ideas:
Those calling for basic human decency got an earful from their fellow incels.
![lonelyrommel1998 32 points 3 hours ago RIP . Please my brothers, be civil during this time of tragedy. I know you guys hate anyone that isnt you, but they are human beings nonetheless permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]novalueinvictimhoodhttps://goo.gl/2yvNyj 2 points 44 minutes ago they are human beings So? Being a modern human being is the greatest crime you can commit. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]wandercampEmbracing the sublime terror of incel existance -3 points an hour ago Fuck off normie I fapped to that video permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]fuck-women-everyday23 KV Approachcel Hopecel Knowledgecel -2 points an hour ago Las Vegas is normie heaven. People go there for drinks, socializing, one night stands, and gambling. Incels will never experience that.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm3.png?resize=580%2C636&ssl=1)
In another thread, Reddit’s incels lashed out at the “normies” expressing sympathy for the victims on social media — and at the alleged “degeneracy” of Las Vegas.
![BlackPill4831yo bald manlet escortcel 卐 'Self improvement is masturbation' 10 points 3 hours ago I hate all this 'competitive grief' on social media. They don't give a fuck about the homeless, jobless and sexless. permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]Bojack101 6 points 3 hours ago The degenerate las vegas city deserved it](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm6.png?resize=517%2C459&ssl=1)
![BlackPillRevolutionWeAreRevolting | Copernicus | ?NormiesCanAllBurn?| Hate 5 points 3 hours ago All virtue-signalling and posting it all over instawhore or fakebook to show how much they "care" just to fit in the rest of the conformitard sheep who do the same thing permalinkembedsavegive gold [–]touchbutt2Women can't be lonely. women can't be depressed. can't be incel 4 points 4 hours ago Exactly. they can call us evil all they want but at least we are honest. The entire degenrate city of las vegas and everyone in it could die and it wouldn't affect my day in any way](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/inm4.png?resize=517%2C724&ssl=1)
The subreddit’s regulars found it much easier to identify with the shooter.
Still, it’s unlikely that Paddock, a 64-year-old retiree who apparently lived with a girlfriend, will be embraced by incels as another Elliot Rodger, the incel mass murderer celebrated as a “saint” and “supreme gentleman” by this despicable crowd. But that didn’t stop some from trying to posthumously recruit Paddock to inceldom, none more ingeniously than this fellow.
It’s a bit of a reach, given that pretty much the only things we seem to know for sure about Paddock is that he was neither a former Chad nor an incel. I guess the Incels subreddit regulars are a little hard up for, er, “heroes” these days.
You do realize that the implication of this statement is that women had better provide sex to men or else they’ll either hurt or us or cheer for those do?
Also, I’ve starved before. Yeah, I was fixated on food. I didn’t want to kill people because I was hungry though.
I don’t know anyone with a bigger libido than mine. Seriously. Yet I can, and have, go years without sex with another person. Sex is not like food, water, and air; you really don’t need it to live no matter how much you desire it.
I would give anything for a “mute user” button application on WHTM.
I’m not sure why you felt the need to explain this to us. Do you believe that no one on this site has ever gone without sex, and thus we all take it for granted? Not having as much sex as you would like, or not having any sex at all, is a fairly common occurrence. If your statement was accurate, I’m pretty sure it would already be widely known to most people.
If you think that a lack of sex is what leads to the incel mindset, well, that says a lot more about you than it does about the human condition.
Careful, PeeVee. You don’t want them accusing us of being an echo chamber. 😉
I see that the whole “Incels are assholes because they don’t have sex” thing is back. Please let me try to suss out why that isn’t true!
Everyone focuses on the celibacy part of the equation, and it’s really not correct. The functional and primary part of why Incels are awful is the Involuntary part.
These people hate everything. They hate people because other people have sex and they don’t. Because other people have 9-5 jobs. Because other people are happy. The primary function of an Incel is resentment. They’ve decided that everything in the world is unfair to them, that the whole world hates them, and that everyone out there is specifically against them (and their kind).
If an Incel has sex, they’re quislings that have allied with the torturers. But they can atone for that sin by continuing to hate everything in the world for oppressing the Incels. Sex isn’t the primary component of what makes an Incel what they are – it’s the hate that is a requirement. Just working on memory here but heck, they have people on their board who talk about formerly getting laid, then deciding to stop having sex because they started hating the world – volcels – and they’re welcomed. Because they had sufficient hate in them.
The Incel community is one of shared, entrenched persecution complex. Involuntary celibacy is optional. Hate is required.
Thank you, Scild. That’s a very good description of the mindset.
Also, I am not asexual, and have had 10 years (more or less) stretch of not having a sexual partner. I also was starved for 6 weeks.
After 6 weeks of minimal food, I was *WAY* more fixated on food than I ever was on sex. For me, sex surely isn’t a basic need at all.
@Kupo and @schilfreda (sorry about sp) — of course, but I was just making an analogy between the two groups, not claiming they’re morally equivalent.
@Skeptic
Stop erasing asexual people. Sex is not a need, and as far as wants go it is not on the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
@Kupo
Seconding this.
@WWTH
And then there’s this. Sex under coercion, such as “Or you’ll be hurt”, is always rape, so the implication is more like “Let men rape us or they’ll hurt us” which is kind of a same result either way thing for women.
RE: Sex
I haven’t had sex in ever as far as I’m concerned. I don’t define it as sex when it’s sexual assault (As has happened twice), or when I didn’t think I could tell my partner I wanted out.
I have severe issues initiating sexual relationships, and romantic relationships. I also don’t have much desire for sex at all, it’s not a “need” to me, and people who think it’s a “need” really confuses me. If I don’t eat, I get light-headed and eventually faint. If I don’t drink, my hallucinations get worse. If I don’t breathe…I know that outcome. But if there’s no sex? That’s just daily life.
And yet for some reason I do not idolize mass shooters or think women owe my lesbian ass something.
@Imaginary Petal — I didn’t mean the “cannot think of anything else” literally, it is a figure of speech meaning “you gravely miss it”.
But you are quite correct, to take your post literally, that virtually everybody is an “incel” during a significant part of their lives, often for years: say, from puberty until your first sexual encounter, which takes years usually, after breaking up or divorcing, after widowhood, etc., etc. — and yet 99%+ of us manage indeed to “think of other things”, and not make it into an all-defining incident of our lives, probably because we do not feel we are ENTITLED to sex, as opposed to WANTING or NEEDING it.
Wow. Just… wow. I mean, I’ve seen the nihilistic viciousness from these people before… but this really does just speak volumes about how much they’ve emotionally invested into this label of theirs that they’d be willing to say this about any senseless deaths, let alone the worst one in modern American history (AFAIK Wounded Knee is still the worst).
Hell, they don’t even have to do that. I went to Nova Scotia to see old forts and buildings and ships and puffins. Did a little socializing, but I’m hardly a people person. And yet I did something fun and kinda adventurous.
But that comment about Las Vegas being “normie heaven” really does lay bare what their concept of a “normie” is. I was always under the impression that the defining mark of a “shitlord” was flouting societal norms, norms like “don’t celebrate mass death”. Yet these same people are going to toss around words like “degenerate” as if they were some kind of tut-tutting schoolmarm reprimanding teenagers for playing kissy-face? The libertine reputation of Las Vegas is the exact opposite of the traditional social norms that exist all around us, so if anything, I’d figure its “anything goes” attitude would be the perfect shitlord playground!
I’m getting the sense that their definition of “normie” is really anybody who doesn’t stew in their own grievances to the point of poisoning every relationship in their lives. (EDIT: Ninja-ed by Scild!) As if the mere concept of people enjoying themselves brands them “Chads” and “Staceys” or whatever silly name they use. (Side note: a Wonkette commenter observed that it really is a unique world incels have populated in their heads.)
Those principles being “use women as status symbols for the acceptance of other toxically-masculine men.” They can’t boast about sex with sex workers in a way that boosts their ego. Same reason they dismiss women who don’t fit their narrowly defined standards of beauty. It’s that transparently shallow and despicable.
The biggest clue that incel is not at its core about depression, low self esteem, social awkwardness or sexual frustration is the group’s gendered nature.
There are women who are depressed. There are women with low self esteem. There are women who are socially awkward. There are women who aren’t getting laid. Yet there is not an equivalent group to incel. If there are women who feel genocidal rage at not having endless sex with hot guys, they are small enough in number to not be able to form a subculture about it.
The simplest explanation is the right one. They hate women and feel entitled to our bodies. They’re angry that we have a say in what happens to our bodies. Really all flavors of manospherians are in these subcultures for one reason. They don’t like that women are allowed to reject to them. Incel just lays out more plainly the rest of them. And people still refuse to believe that the explanation really could be what they’re pretty much telling us outright, that they’re misogynists who don’t see us as real human beings.
@Skeptic
Thank you for explaining this. I don’t know about Petal, but I, for one, had never heard of this “figure of speech thing. To think! I’ve gone my whole life thinking everyone always literally meant the things they said. I yelled at my husband just yesterday for killing two birds at work and he told me he didn’t literally mean it but I thought this was a lie! Why would he say untruths as if they were true? But now, thanks to you, I understand this concept. Now to read up on this “hyperbole” concept linked from that article. Toodles!
No. No. No, we’re not. You don’t get to tell me I’m something I’ve never been. Stop taking a post “literally” by making stuff up that was never said. That’s called a “strawman argument” (or fallacy), by the way.
What a tone-deaf response to this post. Who reads this whole thing and then expresses sympathy for the people cheering on the massive violence and loss of life? It’s like if you’d read that whole thing and replied “Yeah, I feel really bad… I bet some of those people cheering on murder are celiac.” Probably they are, but your priorities are way fucked up.
Want to know what I’d do with such an accusation? *hits mute*
Right now, I’m mashing that imaginary button.
It takes a special sort of movement to set an impossible standard of happiness for themselves and then lash out at the world for not providing that impossible standard for them with no real effort being given on their own part.
I think I’ll start my own movement of people who are angry because we haven’t found the Lost City of Shambhala, and that it’s everyone else’s fault that a really easy to follow map hasn’t been provided for us, when it’s so obvious that the Chads and Stacies of the world must have been given a map to the Mythical Lost City of Shambhala.
Hope it’s ok to stick this here in case anyone wants to share it.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/573419327/no-man-shall-protect-us/description
Thought I had – the more of a ‘normie’ you are, the less likely you are to be aware of either incels or their hatred of people like you. I suspect that they are aware of this, and that it angers them.
My post was more addressing the general topic; I didn’t think you were pointing out a moral equivalence between the two groups. It wasn’t directed at you at all, just the general conversation!
That said, this line:
is entirely wrong, and it’s harmful. It’s an MRA trope. It plays into age-old patriarchal tropes that men just have to have sex, it causes them physical pain to abstain. It’s trotted out pretty much every sexual assault that’s brought to light. Boys will be boys, they’re just starved for sex, etc, etc. And it’s nonsense, and everyone knows it’s nonsense, but as a society we accept it because the alternative is that a lot of men in our society are sexual assaulters, and our failure to confront this casts us as morally weak.
Neurons responsible for transmitting feelings of hunger or thirst are inescapable – they don’t desensitize or stop transmitting, and the brain is unable to block them through the production of endorphines as the body does with acute pain. Their presence triggers widespread activation of the autonomic nervous system, putting you into permanent high-tension fight-or-flight mode, full of adrenaline and cortisol. The reactions are system-wide and utterly inescapable. They dominate thinking for as long as they exist.
The sexual response, on the other hand, is influenced by the gonads and pituitary gland, along with a few brain areas. Sex hormones increase sensitivity and moderate blood flow. In humans, those effects are often dominated by general brain activity, though. There’s no driving biological forces at play here, just the ebb and flow of hormones. They can be strong or weak, certainly! But they’re not driven by biological needs in anything even approaching the needs of hunger or thirst.
Anyone who says that they can’t control their sex drive is just giving you an excuse for wanting to violate your boundaries.
Maybe that was too in-depth? I dunno. I just can’t stand the arguments of MRAs of all stripes when they use that line. “Men just have a stronger libido, they can’t help themselves”. Nonsense. And you shouldn’t repeat that lie by comparing the drive for sex with the drive for food or water. It just reinforces society’s urge to cover for sexual assault by saying “He can’t help himself.”
What WWTH said. Depressed, low self-esteem, socially awkward, definitely not getting laid. Still not wanting to kill people. At least not because of that.
These incels are entitled arseholes, plain and simple. What sort of person celebrates the murder of 50+ innocent people having fun at a music festival? The victims families must be hurting so badly right now, I really hope they never see these incels’ comments, it’s the last thing they need.
@Idontremember —
What worries you, if I understand you correctly, is that people would conclude from the studies I quoted that “if X is depressed, then X is also entitled” — either because depression causes entitlement or vice versa. I think you need not worry. I too do not think the studies I quoted do either. Let me explain.
The studies I quoted, first, deny that depression causes entitlement — the opposite, if anything, is true. They do indeed show that “entitlement causes depression” in the sense that some people become depressed due to it. But they do NOT show (or imply) that “entitlement causes depression” in the sense you seem to mean it: they do not show entitlement is the only, or even a major, cause of depression. It is well known depression has numerous causes.
You are therefore quite correct in saying that there are no studies that show that “depression causes entitlement or vice versa” in the sense you use the word “cause”. In particular, these studies do NOT say or imply that being depressed means that you feel entitled. At most they mean that being entitled means implies that you will feel depressed, a very different thing. Saying all As are Bs is not at all the same as saying all Bs are As.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
mash mash mash mash
What studies are you referring to, Skeptic?