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Open Thread on Mandalay Bay mass shooting in Las Vegas

Chaos in the aftermath of the shooting

UPDATE: 2:30 PM 10/2/17: The death toll has risen to 58, with more than 500 injured. Though it was first reported that Paddock was killed by police it now appears he shot himself before the police entered his room. There are still no details as to Paddock’s possible motives. The original post follows.

As I write this, the media is reporting that 50 have been killed and more than 400 others have been injured in a mass shooting at an open-air concert in Las Vegas. Police have identified the shooter as 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, who opened fire on concertgoers from a hotel room in the Mandalay Bay complex overlooking the venue, killing dozens before himself being shot dead by police.

The staggering death toll, which seems sure to rise, makes this the worst mass shooting in American history. At this point we know very little about the shooter or what his motives may have been, but that hasn’t stopped 4Channers and far-right “media” sources from spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories.

We’ll know more soon enough, I assume. In the meantime, here are a few useful tweets I’ve gathered up so far.

A couple of thread on on the disinformation being spread about the shooting by many of the usual suspects.

The execrable right-wing Gateway Pundit remains dedicated to getting everything wrong the fastest.

Other relevant tweets:

https://twitter.com/NivenJ1/status/914795331241484288

My heart goes out to all those affected by this senseless tragedy. If you’re a WHTM reader who lives in or around Las Vegas, or if you’re visiting there, please let us know how you are doing.

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Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago
Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
3 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

*happy clappy hands of glee* EEEEEEEEEEE!!! best gifs evah (until next time, anyway LOL!)

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

OT, but I just saw this on facebook:

Did Donald Trump Cut Funding for Obamacare Enrollment Advertising? (link goes to snopes)

The answer is yes. They asked you to copy and paste this:

“Congratulations!

Snopes verified that the enrollment period was shortened and GOP has cut by 90% the funding to advertise these deadlines.
The website for enrolling will be taken off-line every Sunday, thus making enrollment on the weekends more difficult. This is a tactic to prevent enrollment–how many websites can you think of that have scheduled downtime EVERY SUNDAY??Be sure to enroll on week days only!

Enrollment for 2018 Affordable Care Act (ACA / Obamacare) starts November 1 and ends December 15. Trump reduced the advertising funds by 90% to announce when people can enroll. Please copy and paste to circulate.

PLEASE COPY AND PASTE ON YOUR OWN TIMELINE. Then put CONGRATULATIONS so the algorithms will post it more frequently.”

I included the snopes article in the first comment, so you can see my source right away.

I’m not american, but a friend has reposted it already. If fake russian news can sway an election partly through facebook, maybe we can help make up that gap in funding?

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

As a web developer, what the fuck? It takes effort to take things down and nothing needs weekly maintenance for an entire day. Are they paying some devops person to go in and take the ssite down so that people can’t enroll?

mrex
mrex
3 years ago

Since my eyes actually glazed over during the gun debate, I’m just going to leave my opinion here without reading the rest, and be done with it.

1. I grew up in a family that owned guns, and I did get to shoot those guns on occassion. I went hunting small game a few times as a teenager*. When my kiddo hit middle school she was taught how to shoot as well.

So even though I have personally used guns, do you want to know the amount of times that I’ve ever seen a situation where a AR-15 was reasonably needed in civilian life? Zero.

There is zero need to own an AR-15 in civilian life.

2. Time to stop depicting people who own guns as dangerous “alpha males”‘, whether they’re being glamorized, or demonized. Liking to shoot guns, or hunt, or pose for selfies, does not make anyone a dangerous badass. Neither does parading around with a gun on your hip.

Time to start laughing at these losers, and treating them like the pathetic wannabes that they are.

*Which was fun until I hit something, then I felt HORRIBLE.

Z&T
Z&T
3 years ago

@ Still Fiqah,

#1 – But we could go to “two feet” now! My drinking bud here said, re Tom Petty, Not LUCKY! As Lucky, he did recommend to Bill that his car might be too far gone and he might want to consider “Cutting a hole in the floor boards and making it into a Flintstones car.”

– TP as “Lucky” on King of the Hill.

HA! 🙂

Besides being a great musician, he was great on that show too 🙂

#7 – Running Down a Dream is indeed one of the best driving songs ever!

Luck be with you this time too, Tom, we hope you pull through and get well!

What a day.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

@Kupo: I wonder how much money is being wasted taking something down and putting it back up every Sunday.

I mean, I know they don’t *actually* care about cutting spending if they can hurt people they don’t like, but….? This has to cost something. And be really annoying for the employees who need to do it!

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

Thank you for the cute animals @Ooglyboggles!

@wwth – yay for kitties!

Schnookums Von Ghostface Fancypants Killer
Schnookums Von Ghostface Fancypants Killer
3 years ago

Ugh, the Healthcare Marketplace is going to go down *EVERY SUNDAY*?!?!?

Gee, my job just got so much easier *sigh*. Yes, I sell health insurance, and people who qualify for Tax Subsidies HAVE to be processed on the marketplace site. And few people are going to want to walk away from thousands of dollars of tax breaks just so they can enroll right now (although some people also might not have a choice either).

Did I mention I fucking hate Trump and the Republicans lately?

PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Tired of the Militant Plasticfaced) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Congress let CHIP expire.

Trump proclaimed today as Child Health Day and that he’s committed to “protecting and promoting the health and well-being of our Nation’s young people.”

Because the fucking pro-life party are a bunch of fucking hypocrites bought off by the NRA and corporate pimps.

I don’t fucking want to hear about these craven ghouls paying lip service to the sanctity of life and Christian morality and values when they’re willing to let that sanctity be bought to whomever bids the highest.

I am so fucking disgusted right now.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

@PoM

This again… :p

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

@Ooglyboggles
Those are some happy Corgies! This is why I love my local dog park.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

this weekend was the absolute worst.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

The corgies going around in an endless circle makes me smile and smile.

Otrame
Otrame
3 years ago

@ Skeptic

The first stone tools that we know of for sure were made by Homo erectus not sapiens. They were what are colloquially called hand axes. I actually got to hold one, once. They were beautifully if simply made and fit well into my hand. They were butchers’ tools, not weapons. In fact, even after people started making actual stone weapons, most stone tools were not weapons. They were used for cutting a bunch of stuff, including everything from meat to various roots, digging, harvesting grasses, scraping hides, etc.

Otrame
Otrame
3 years ago

@Kat

Yes. My little dachshund/Jack Russel LOVES to be chased around the dog park.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago
Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Peevee

I don’t fucking want to hear about these craven ghouls paying lip service to the sanctity of life and Christian morality and values when they’re willing to let that sanctity be bought to whomever bids the highest.

You’re being unfair to the flesh eating undead, comparing them to Republicans.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

Such majestic animals, descended from the mighty wolf.

Nequam
Nequam
3 years ago

@PeeVee: I hope Petty’s alive too, but the situation reminds me unpleasantly of Carrie Fisher’s. 🙁

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

Tom Petty was apparently brain-dead when they found him. They tried but …

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

@Dali, no disrespect to the flesh eating undead; they’re not cowardly at all. Just hungry.

@Nequam, I really don’t know all that much about how long one can last brain-dead while not on life support; sigh. I know it’s most likely inevitable, though.

Nequam
Nequam
3 years ago

If he must go, it seems like he will go peacefully and without pain, which isn’t so bad as these things go.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

@PeeVee

Well..based on the average supporter of 45, apparently one can survive for quite a while if one is brain-dead and without life support.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

Okay, one person (at least) has had a change of heart about guns

Guitarist says Las Vegas concert attack changed his mind on gun control

‘I’ve been a proponent of the [second] amendment my entire life,’ said Caleb Keeter on Twitter after shooting at festival. ‘Until the events of last night’

[Caleb Keeter] said that members of the band’s crew have concealed handgun licenses, and legal firearms on the bus.

“They were useless,” he said. “We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us. A small group (or one man) laid waste to a city with dedicated, fearless police officers desperately trying to help, because of access to an insane amount of firepower. Enough is enough.” . . .

“We need gun control RIGHT. NOW,” he added. “My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.” . . .

Over the years, Keeter has argued in favor of gun rights, arguing on Twitter that if current laws were “actually enforced, the people committing the shootings wouldn’t have these guns.” In 2012, he went so far as to say “I fear giving the ability to regulate our weapons to the institution that makes gun ownership a necessity.”

He said he regretted that on Monday. “I saw this happening for years and did nothing,” he wrote. “I’d like to do what I can now.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/las-vegas-gun-control-caleb-keeter-josh-abbott-band

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@PreuxFox,

Does anybody know of any legit collection efforts to help with medical expenses for the living/final costs for the deceased? Or is it too soon for that still?

I just saw this link in my email; it’s a GoFundMe set up by Steve Sisolak, Clark County Commission Chair from Las Vegas. The target amount is 2.5 million and they’re at about 2.3 in just 24 hours or so.
USians, pls correct me if this is not a worthy/ reliable source, and apologies if someone’s already posted about it.

Adam
Adam
3 years ago

Out of morbid curiosity I looked up countries that had fewer murders in a year than Las Vegas saw last night. Some examples:

Switzerland (57 in 2015)
Denmark (56 in 2015)
New Zealand (41 in 2014)
Ireland (30 in 2015)
Norway (29 in 2014)
Singapore (14 in 2015)

Also Japan, which has extremely tough gun control laws, and a population of 127 million people, had a total of 395 murders in 2014. It is truly horrifying to see what a single individual with a gun can do–and also now much less violence there is in these countries than there is in the US, a country with incredibly lax gun control laws which saw 15,696 murders in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Markus
Markus
3 years ago

These are being reported as fully automatic weapons, which are not only illegal everywhere in the US, but extremely difficult to obtain on the black market.

JS
JS
3 years ago

@wwth Mind if I grab that freeze peach bear meme?

Thanks oogly, wonderful animal gifs.
Duck, duck, duck, goose?
Corgi-wheel, yay

@Mish It’s hard to verify gofundme campaigns, though Twitter does blue-check verify Steve Sisolak exists, and the campaign link is pinned on top of Steve’s Twitter account. So it’s probably him. I don’t know that he is a candidate for Governor, though he claims to be. Someone in Nevada might be more sure.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Well..based on the average supporter of 45, apparently one can survive for quite a while if one is brain-dead and without life support.

*Snerk*

I needed that, thanks.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

JS,

I didn’t make the meme. I just saw it somewhere a few years ago and post it as needed. So feel free!

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Sigh. Tom Petty has passed away. His manager said it was peacefully.

😢

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes Exactly. 🙁 And because of the media storm surrounding this shooting, the terror attack in Edmonton, the shooting in Kansas, the police violence in Spain and the bombing in Damascus are getting very little media attention. Not to mention the ongoing situations in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Houston, Florida, etc. etc. etc.

Thank goodness for cute animal pics. Not to mention all the people doing the good work of helping and agitating for what’s just.

Shadowplay
Shadowplay
3 years ago

On the question of automatic weapons, the Independent says sources tell them he didn;t have automatic weapons but did have devices that allowed him to convert semi-automatic weapons to automatic weapons.

Thank you David. It were either that or a gat crank – full autos are a little bit out of reach for most retired accountants.

There is absolutely ZERO justification for anyone in any capacity (civilian, police, or military) having a bumpstock – legal though they may be.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@JS,

Thanks for the info about the gofundme. Have an adorbs in return:

comment image

Nothing is Permanent But Woe
Nothing is Permanent But Woe
3 years ago

Just a note to say how deeply sorry I am about this whole thing. I didn’t comment yesterday, partly because I was processing this (so much of the footage reminded me of the Manchester attack, which was very close to home for me) but also because we’re dealing with something quite big in the school I work at. We recently lost a student and it’s the funeral this week, and there is huge anger and sadness here. We’re dealing with the emotional aftermath of one death and it’s affecting all, staff and students – I can only begin to imagine what everyone in Las Vegas will be dealing with. Really sorry that this is happening again.

@Mish Kitten/owl spooning is brilliant!

Amnesia
Amnesia
3 years ago

Just pondering the whole gun violence/mental illness association and got to thinking. In general, the people who end up doing the mass shootings don’t tend to be people who seem that bad off. Like, unless their family were the ones stockpiling guns, they seem to be making enough to afford gun collecting as a hobby. How often is the shooter someone who only has that one gun, for instance?

My point being, they seem like people who could relatively easily afford and access mental health care if they actually cared to get it. Sure, society’s stigma of it gets some of the blame for steering away some people who might actually benefit from it, but still, these are usually people who, if they are mentally ill, chose shooting a bunch of people over even considering seeking help.

Is that fair to say?

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
3 years ago

The website for enrolling will be taken off-line every Sunday, thus making enrollment on the weekends more difficult. This is a tactic to prevent enrollment–how many websites can you think of that have scheduled downtime EVERY SUNDAY??Be sure to enroll on week days only!

Enrollment for 2018 Affordable Care Act (ACA / Obamacare) starts November 1 and ends December 15.Trump reduced the advertising funds by 90% to announce when people can enroll.

“Enrollment forms can be found in a defunct lavatory in the unlit basement, inside a locked filing cabinet labeled with the sign ‘BEWARE OF THE LEOPARD EATING PEOPLE’S FACES'”

Kevin
Kevin
3 years ago

@ Arctic Ape. Riff on Douglas Adams ? Trumpanzee Repubs are reminiscent of Vogons these days…

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
3 years ago

Shortly after the Newtown shooting, I remember a UK journalist writing that it was too late for meaningful gun control to be put in place in the US. His reasoning was that if Americans were willing to accept the massacre of first graders rather than institute gun control, then the door was irrevocably shut.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Irrevocably shut?

It seems the congress might, just might, have the decency to not go ahead with that no-regulation-at-all-of-silencers-of-all-guns-everywhere legislation they were planning for this week or next. There’s also the possibility for senators to propose restriction-regulation-permit legislation on various technologies, gizmos and gadgets that allow people to make some guns more lethal than they already are.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
3 years ago

@mildlymagnificent

I don’t know if I believe the journalist in question, and of course I hope he’s wrong. His remarks stuck with me, because often outsiders see things with a fresh eye. Sometimes, we can’t see the forest for the trees, if you know what I mean.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

From a UK perspective, I don’t know if it helps any, but this time, I’ve been more struck by how very tired of events like this those in the US seem. Of course, there’s still no reasoning with the gun nuts, any change would have to come in spite of them, which I know would be very difficult, maybe impossible. But others do seem more fed up, and less resigned to things continuing like this, Scalzi summed up something in the public mood. Maybe with Trump’s presidency and the way it brings into focus the issues in US culture, it’s become closer to hitting a point where people realise things have to change? Can only hope.

It’s a terrible tragedy, I hope those injured and the families are coping Ok, and RIP for the lives lost.

@Amnesia
I’m doubtful they’re mentally ill in the first place when it’s planned like this, and it won’t have been the main factor here – being a white man is. Being able to afford access to healthcare for mental illness also doesn’t mean someone will think to do so, or that it will actually help, as it doesn’t always. It can even make things worse, it has for me at times.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Even just 10, 15 years ago it seemed that marriage equality was never going to happen. Then it did happen. And quickly. Progress can be sudden like that. It’s silly to say that just because something is entrenched, it’s going to be like that forever.

I’m sure every positive change that ever happened at many points seemed impossible.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

It’s great to be home again!

@Mish

OMG that is so so so so adorable!

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

<3 Jesalin, I hope you're doing well!

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

@Scildfreja

So far, so good! ~^.^~

CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
3 years ago

Is it time to throw the mentally ill under the bus again?

Every time we have a mass shooting I have to have the following conversation.

Some Asshat I know: Forget gun control, what we really need to do is lock up/register/punish the mentally ill!

Me: I’m mentally ill

Asshat: No, not like you, like the people who are *really* mentally ill!

Every. fucking. time.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Kat, from the quoted comment:

“They were useless,” he said. “We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us.

This is the big thing that a lot of the ‘second amendment solution’ types really don’t get. No, you’re probably not going to save the day, but you may look like part of the threat to police officers already on edge. And they already know they will probably walk free if they ‘accidentally’ kill you.

I seem to recall that something similar to this happened at the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. Somebody managed to take down the shooter and got the gun away from him, and almost got shot by police himself for his success because he was the one holding the weapon.

The person behind this had obviously been planning this for a while, and had deliberately set things up so he could do a massive amount of damage and make himself so difficult to track down from the high window that he would have the maximum amount of time before anybody could get to him. This was an attempt to cause as much damage as possible with no real thought as to who was going to get hurt; it’s not like he could target specific people from that height. Just pure notoriety.

And as others have noted, the last time that gun control was taken seriously in the U.S. was caused by the Black Panthers actively getting armed. A white guy going on a shooting spree? Not the time to politicize it.