Categories
open thread

Open Thread on Mandalay Bay mass shooting in Las Vegas

Chaos in the aftermath of the shooting

UPDATE: 2:30 PM 10/2/17: The death toll has risen to 58, with more than 500 injured. Though it was first reported that Paddock was killed by police it now appears he shot himself before the police entered his room. There are still no details as to Paddock’s possible motives. The original post follows.

As I write this, the media is reporting that 50 have been killed and more than 400 others have been injured in a mass shooting at an open-air concert in Las Vegas. Police have identified the shooter as 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, who opened fire on concertgoers from a hotel room in the Mandalay Bay complex overlooking the venue, killing dozens before himself being shot dead by police.

The staggering death toll, which seems sure to rise, makes this the worst mass shooting in American history. At this point we know very little about the shooter or what his motives may have been, but that hasn’t stopped 4Channers and far-right “media” sources from spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories.

We’ll know more soon enough, I assume. In the meantime, here are a few useful tweets I’ve gathered up so far.

A couple of thread on on the disinformation being spread about the shooting by many of the usual suspects.

The execrable right-wing Gateway Pundit remains dedicated to getting everything wrong the fastest.

Other relevant tweets:

https://twitter.com/NivenJ1/status/914795331241484288

My heart goes out to all those affected by this senseless tragedy. If you’re a WHTM reader who lives in or around Las Vegas, or if you’re visiting there, please let us know how you are doing.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

205 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Who?
Who?
3 years ago

My condulence to everyone who lost people they care about and hope that most of the people, who are hurt, survive.
The numbers of the victims are very scary.

Zenobia
Zenobia
3 years ago

I have a cousin who lives there and I’m getting kind of worried, I tried to contact her but I haven’t heard back yet. Hopefully, she is still asleep.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

We have been chatting on and off in the discord about this as soon as it happened.

I feel sick.
Trump and his “warmest condolences” and “god bless you!” Can drink a tall frosty glass of my farts.

IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

Oh god, I didn’t even know this had happened. This is just so horrible. And another white guy with a gun.

C.S.Strowbridge
C.S.Strowbridge
3 years ago

I want to say it is time to get very, very angry, but we hare far past that time.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Zenobia,

If it makes you feel any better, locals don’t usually go to the strip. I do hope she’s safe though. I’m feeling glad my mother no longer lives there right now. She wouldn’t have been anywhere near this shooting even if she did but, still.

Zenobia
Zenobia
3 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger,
She get’s a lot of free passes to stuff like this. But it turns out she wasn’t there. I am much relieved, but still really sad this happened.

vox
vox
3 years ago

There will now, almost certainly, be many conversations about gun control and mental health care, and those are necessary talks, to be sure.

But maybe we need to talk about the larger culture as well, a culture that too often celebrates “toughness” and strength and militarism as manly virtues and denigrates kindness, gentleness and compassion as weak and therefore feminine.

It almost seems to me that as women have gained rights and some economic parity the backlash has led to even more regimented gender modalities as men feel the need to separate themselves from women in any way they can. The men this site talks about are now cartoons. They’re what a 12-year-old boy might think a man is. Still, this cartoon version of masculinity seems to be taking a dominant role in our culture, and that makes me sick.

The sexism is clear to me. Patriarchy kills. It denigrates women and deforms the humanity of men.

I don’t know what to do about any of that. I just think it needs to be part of the conversation.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ vox, all:

There will now, almost certainly, be many conversations about gun control and mental health care, and those are necessary talks, to be sure.

there will be a LOT of conversations about “mental health” (scare quotes represent my feeling that the conversation will focus on “the shooter was a nut-case, and, as such, it’s an anomaly” and NOT on mental health awareness or on the lack of access to mental health care.)

there will be a LOT FEWER conversations about gun control, gun violence, or violence….

And another white guy with a gun

when I heard about this, I found myself hoping it was a white man, and not a person of color or a Muslim…

Zenobia
Zenobia
3 years ago

And of course, no conversations about survivors who can’t get the mental health care they need….

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

Top headline in our largest daily newspaper at the moment: “America never learns”

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

“America never learns”

THAT!!!!

again and again and again….

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

My feeling go to thoses whose loved one were wounded or killed here. Including psychological wounds.

A french friend is blocked in the pool of his hotel because of the terrorist attack. He act like he is only midly inconvenienced, but I hope he won’t get PTSD or something.

Sheila Crosby
3 years ago

@Weird Yes, I’m a little relieved too. Of course it makes no difference to the number of dead, wounded and traumatised, but it probably does make a difference to the number of revenge hate crimes.

Come to think of it, there will still be some revenge hate crimes. Somebody, somewhere is still going to assume that the shooter was Muslim and go spray swastikas on some totally innocent person’s car.

I’m not feeling too proud of Spain (where I live) at the moment, but we don’t have to worry about mass shootings.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

They’re still gonna make up some story about the shooter being transgender, like they did with the PP shooter in Colorado among others. To the right, it doesn’t matter how white and straight and cis and male a shooter is. They will always make up a story to pin the crime on “the other side” while simultaneously praising the killer and blaming the victims. And, also simultaneously, claiming the attack never even happened.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
3 years ago

I’m still struggling to process the enormity of this event, and the pre-meditation involved. When I turned on the TV this morning and saw ’50 dead’, I think time stopped for a moment.

Does anybody know of any legit collection efforts to help with medical expenses for the living/final costs for the deceased? Or is it too soon for that still?

lkeke35
lkeke35
3 years ago

I think this perfectly expresses my sentiments and rage at this particular moment:

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/06/12/thoughts-and-prayers/

I’m really just too angry to listen to that kind of sht right now. But America does not learn. It won’t ever learn. It refuses to to learn, and our kids, and teens, and adults are going to keep dying en masse, again and again and again. America aint gonna do sht about this either, except act appalled at how awful it was, clutch our pearls, and keep it moving.

I lost hope for this whole country, after twenty little babies got killed at Newtown and America did nothing but offer thoughts and prayers. (The next White person who spouts “All Lives Matter at me is going to get a swift kick in the shins, because in America that is an extremely obvious lie.)

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

I suppose the conservatives already have an angle to blame trans folks for the shooting, considering the killer apparently had used some woman’s ID or whatever. They will claim the shooter was trans. Just watch.

Sheila Crosby
3 years ago

I’m wondering whether the shooter will turn out to have a record of domestic violence. They so often do.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I hate how every time this happens, there are people who’s idea of gun control is to not change the overall gun laws but to restrict access to mentally ill people only.

That wouldn’t have stopped this or many other mass shootings. He had no criminal record. As far as I know, no history of severe mental illness.
People who knew him are surprised and say nothing about indicated that he would do this.*

Mental illness can be a factor in mass shootings, but from what I’ve read, when that’s the case, the victims are random and it’s not planned extensively. This was obviously planned. He was in the hotel for days. He was probably waiting for the perfect time to carry out the shooting.

The problem is the guns, not that bad people are allowed to buy them. It’s impossible to anticipate who might be buying them for nefarious reasons. Real gun control will probably never happen. Maybe it’s time for people to start voting with their wallets and refuse to give their tourist dollars to states that have particularly lax gun laws? There’s so little hope of anything happening on a federal level we may have to focus on state and municipal legislative bodies.

* I’m not sure I buy this. People don’t become murderers just out of nowhere. There were probably red flags that people just dismissed. Hateful, violent, extremist or conspiratorial ideology. Obsession with weapons. Incidents of domestic violence or sexual harassment or assault that he was never charged with. Things like that. I expect some of this info to eventually come out. It’s all too common for people to dismiss or be expected to dismiss these kinds of red flags that men – particularly white men – display. To add to what Vox wrote, patriarchy not only values toxic masculinity, it expects us to bend over backwards to assure ourselves and others that the worst products of it are really “nice guys” who should be cut slack. I’m fucking sick of it.

Alex
Alex
3 years ago

Every time I tell someone that the Neocon/Alt Right ilk will always flip a tragedy like this and blame the left for this. Here’s a quote by Paul Joseph Watson, he works with Alex Jones.

Odd that the same people who say “carry on as normal” after every Islamic terror attacking are suddenly demanding new laws after Las Vegas.

Trump and Pence tweeted about this and won’t even call it terrorism. As a matter fact some won’t dare say the word. If this was a Muslim or a refugee/immigrant, they would be having a field day with this.

Trump-My warmest condolences and sympathies to the victims and families of the terrible Las Vegas shooting. God bless you.

Pence-To victims, families & loved ones affected by this senseless violence in Las Vegas, Karen & I are praying for you & offering our love…

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

warmest fucking condolences
fresh off the stove
steaming hot

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

WWTH : I would say, the problem is the culture around guns.

If people really want to, they can get guns in Europa (see : the murder spree in Paris). But guns aren’t glorified, so not only disenfranchised people are less likely to hold on a gun as a status symbol, but people don’t alway have an assault rifle handy for they have the mass murder equivalent of a suicide ideation.

While decreasing availability of guns would likely be a good first step, I think americans need to think it’s ridiculous to think they can shoot bad guys ; and they need to think that a gun is a specialized tool for some jobs, not a status of being an adult / a male / someone in charge, or similar.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

A gun is not a fucking tool.
Do not even begin.

A gun belongs to an intensely specific kind of tool we have a name for; a fucking weapon.

IgnoreSandra
3 years ago

“Our condolences, but we find the random mass murder of people by cis white men entirely acceptable in our eyes and will do absolutely nothing that could have any chance of limiting future casualties or even preventing another domestic terror attack in the future.”

That’s what everyone who goes “thoughts and prayers” is really saying. I am sick of it, and I am going to call these bastards the fuck out.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ wwth:

People who knew him are surprised and say nothing about indicated that he would do this. … I’m not sure I buy this.

“… never saw it coming… yeah, I mean, he beat his old lady, and there was the time he went off in the bar about ‘people need to die in large numbers before shit is gonna change in this country’, and he was always really quick-tempered and angry… but to do this??? Shit came out’a nowhere, did’n it???”

I know…

And even if it turns out he had a facebook page full of angry threats to do just exactly THIS, it’ll still be an anomaly. Even if it’s a facebook of angry threats to do just exactly THIS in order to make them see that the (insert most disfavored oppressed group) need to be (insert most favored revenge fantasy), it’ll STILL BE CONSIDERED AN ANOMALY

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

@Tashilicious : a weapon is a tool indeed. I don’t want people to misuse gun any more or less that people misuse trucks or power tools or explosives. And I think armies are a necessary evil that won’t go away ever.

(plus, hunting exist, and even if a hunting rifle isn’t anywhere as lethal as an assault weapon, it’s lethal enough to make a mass murder anyway. And even if you’re opposed to sport hunting, I hope wild animals will continue to exist, which mean some specific guys will have to deal with them)

@Weird Eddie : of course. It HAVE to be an anomaly since it’s against the statu quo. It’s way easier to classify something as an anomaly regardless of circumstances that ask for a change, and especially easier than admit being wrong.

That’s where we see that the medias aren’t actually diverse yet.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

MY issue is when you call a gun a tool, you are playing into the “Well it’s not a dangerous thing it’s just a tool, like a car or a hammer or a saw!”

This is disengenuous and false.

A gun has a single use, none of them toolworthy. That use is to kill. A tool which only has one use, to kill, is called a weapon.

We don’t call a bec-guisarme a tool. It’s a weapon.
We don’t call a battle axe a tool. It’s a weapon.
We don’t call a hand grenade a tool. It’s a weapon.
Don’t call a gun a tool.

This has nothing to do with my personal gun control/use politics. This has everything to do with language being used to misdirect.

It is not a tool.
It is a weapon.

A tool CAN be used as a weapon, but it has another purpose in its existence. It does work, it builds or changes or helps.
A weapon has none of those qualities. It simply exists to kill.

Skeptic
Skeptic
3 years ago

@VOX – I wish to add an outsider’s perspective to the discussion of masculinity and weapons. I am not an American, and come from a country where military service is a requirement. By American standards, I am an ultimate “tough guy”: M.Sgt. (res.), combat engineers, fired just about anything from a pistol to an assault rifle to an anti-tank missile and a grenade launcher, been in tanks and APCs, etc., etc.

Yet, I assure you that in my own country I am nothing special, and if paraded around making myself into a tough guy due to this, I would be laughed at. NOBODY I know, most of them with similar or sometimes much “tougher” backgrounds, would ever think of using their knowledge of small (or not so small) arms as evidence of masculinity or toughness. In my country, in fact, private ownership of firearms is on a low level, precisely because everybody uses them in the army; to say you know how to use a gun is no more special than saying you know to drive a car.

What I suggest to you is that, paradoxically, if there were a draft in the USA and everybody served in the armed forces, this would significantly LOWER the American gun-craze. When everybody uses a gun in the army, there are no masculinity points for doing so in civilain life. When everybody is in the army, you realize that the American paranoia about having to have gun because “the government” will otherwise get you is absurd: as a soldier, you ARE the “government”, so good luck to them ordering yourself to oppress yourself.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If people really want to, they can get guns in Europa

We have mass shootings just about every day in the US. The news was just saying there have been 273 this year. They just usually aren’t this big so they don’t become huge news story. Not so in countries that have actual gun control. Obviously the gun culture is a problem, but the biggest and immediate issue is ease of access. We’re not going to change the gun culture as long as people are allowed to stockpile weapons.

Also, if high capacity magazine guns were outlawed, there’s every chance that future mass shooters who are motivated to get these guns anyway will be caught and convicted of illegally buying guns before they can kill people.

If anyone thinks gun control laws won’t change things here, just look at Hawaii. They have stricter than the usual gun control laws and they have less gun violence. Because unlike other states/cities in the US that have tighter laws, you can’t buy guns in places with lax laws and drive them into the area and use them to kill people.

Skeptic
Skeptic
3 years ago

@Tashilicious -I think the statement “a gun is a tool” is meant as an analogy. I think the poster you are replying to means that guns have specific uses – for example, to be used by soldiers to protect military bases or by cops to arrest criminals – and are not meant to be a status symbol.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Ohlmann
A gun has one purpose: violence
A tool has utility. A gun is for killing. Full stop.

banned@4chan.org
banned@4chan.org
3 years ago

My [blank] is missing, please RT and share, we are distraught, [random ass picture].

That, that’s not a meme you dipshits. You’re just taking the already low chance that the “wisdom of crowds” can help people genuinely worried about their loved ones and diluting it.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

Twenty-eight years out from École Polytechnique . Eighteen years out from Columbine. Ten years out from Virginia Tech. Five years out from Sandy Hook. Sixteen months out from Pulse.

Round and round and round it goes, where it stops… only the lobbyists know and they’re guarding the controls. And all I can feel is despair and powerlessness.

There’s a tragic irony to this taking place in the midst of a protracted healthcare battle. But that irony brought to mind a discussion that Bluegal had on the Professional Left Podcast that I listen to every weekend. (As an aside, I highly recommend the Pro Left podcast to any Mammotheer. Released every Friday, it is my weekend catharsis from a week of Republican idiocy and a reminder that there are people out there grounded and fighting the good fight.)

Bluegal, being the theology graduate from Brandeis that she is, related the story of Cain and Abel and called attention to a part of the story that I had actually forgotten. While most people are familiar with the story of the first murder, the way it is translated reveals another arguably more grievous dimension to the sin:

Genesis 4:9–And the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother? And he said, “I do not know: am I my brother’s keeper?”

Despite theoretically being omniscient, God didn’t see Abel die and had to ask Cain of Abel’s wherabouts; it was that telling response that tipped him off that something had happened. While God doesn’t say it explicitly in verses that follow, the obvious metaphorical subtext is that we are all our brother’s keepers. If one of is suffering, that’s on us to ameliorate it; I gotta imagine the Reverend Tommy Douglas had this passage in mind as he was working on the health care system in Saskatchewan.

But the neoliberalism and the Randroid Objectivism still permeating the discourse has made “rugged individualism” and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” the main mantras of the United States in way that I really haven’t seen in other nations. Which strikes me as bizarre: it’s one thing that humanity has divided itself up into nation-states, but the fact that the most powerful of those nation-states has abdicated that communal responsibility? What does American citizenship mean if your brothers are just going to toss bootstraps at you when you’re in need?

America needs to get it through its societal skull that we really are our brother’s keepers and it reflects badly on its society to abdicate that responsibility is so callous a way. Just accepting the deaths of thousands as the cost of firearm ownership is a sin, if I’d call anything one. Ripping affordable health care out of the hands of thousands is also a sin. Committing both sins together… that’s just plain sadism.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

It still leads to that linguistic slippage into excuse.

“It’s a tool. Why do we need to regulate tools!”

Use exact language. It is a weapon. All “tools” who’s only main goal is to inflict death or destruction are called weapons. To try and define it with a looser application of “tool” is only ever done to attempt to have less restrictions. They are attempting to categorize is as something benign, like a hammer or socket set. It isn’t. Do not allow it.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

People don’t become murderers just out of nowhere. There were probably red flags that people just dismissed. Hateful, violent, extremist or conspiratorial ideology. Obsession with weapons. Incidents of domestic violence or sexual harassment or assault that he was never charged with. Things like that.

There’s a sizeable chunk of the population which would see those as virtues, not red flags.

Schnookums Von Ghostface Fancypants Killer
Schnookums Von Ghostface Fancypants Killer
3 years ago

So feeling a little auxiliary survivor’s guilt. I have a LOT of family in Vegas, and just the other day My middle sister was even out on the Strip at a different music festival. Thankfully she was a little busy being my youngest sister’s birth coach. I had hoped that the only news coming out of Vegas would be the birth of my lovely niece but some fucko with a gun ruined those plans. I just hate thinking that “50 people have died and all I can think is that I’m thrilled none of my family was among them.”

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Next they start talking about knives, and whether you should be restricted from owning a cleaver.

@Schnookums
That’s a perfectly natural way to react, which I’m sure you already know.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

Schnookums, that’s perfectly understandable. Humans a tribal beasts, and family is the closest tribe of all.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

Tashilicious : if somebody say to my face that tools don’t need to be regulated, I would laugh him out of the room. Explosives and chemicals that lead to explosives or nerves gas are the prime example, but actually, most tools have reglementations attached to it, and quite a lot of them require actual autorizations.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

(it’s not even just for terrorism. It’s also just to avoid gross misuses)

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Oh. My. Goddess.

My deepest sympathies to the survivors and the families of those who were murdered!

Re: weapons/tools

A gun is a weapon, not a tool. Calling guns tools is a disingenuous way to downplay things.

@Gussie

I find that “individualism” pretty laughable in a sense. Especially when everytime a girl in school (in the US) gets tired of the sexist dresscodes in school. All of a sudden everyone (against her) is all about rules.

It’s two-thousand and fucking seventeen and the way girls and women dress is STILL being policed ffs.

@Pie

Sad but true!

Skeptic
Skeptic
3 years ago

Now that you made me think about it, I think I always assumed “weapon” or “gun” is a *kind* of tool in English, the word “tool” being a general one for all handheld objects used for a specific purpose, in the same sense “cutlery” or “fork” are tools. Technically, I think I am correct, dictionary-wise, but I am not sure about collquial speech.

Besides, aren’t many – if not most – tools licensed, except for those used in the home? You can’t buy a car without a driver’s license, nor most medical equiplent without similar permits, etc.

(Sigh) as Eddie Izzard put it, it is true that guns don’t kill people, people kill people – but the gun helps. If this guy had been standing in that tower with a wooden stick shouting “bang!”…

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Gun related stock prices are up. Cos we can make money off tragedy, but we can’t be ‘political’
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-02/gun-stocks-rise-again-this-time-after-las-vegas-shooting

Skeptic
Skeptic
3 years ago

@Schnookum – you *should* care for your family more than you care for strangers. It all depends on *how much* and in *what way* you care more.

dreemr
dreemr
3 years ago

I don’t have anything constructive to add.

@Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie has it right all the way down.

I’m so thoroughly done with “thoughts and prayers”. If you’re not working to END ACCESS TO FIREARMS then you can shove your thoughts and prayers. I don’t want to hear one more damn politician expressing their “thoughts and prayers”, I want them to DO something.

But Sandy Hook showed me nothing will ever, ever be done.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

@Jesalin : I don’t buy the argument that it downplay anything. A tool isn’t a toy, and almost no tools are safe under all circumstance.

It do however highlight that weapons, and guns should not be seen as glamorous, status symbol, or anything. Which is one of the problem of the gun subculture. People don’t buy chainsaws or elevator lifts to their children at 16′ nearly as often as rifles. People don’t stockpile screwdrivers or hammers just in case. There isn’t a cutting implement subreddit with people mystically assigning quality to constructors.

Also, it sort-of hide the fact that, as a lot of recent european incidents have highlighted, switching from a gun to a knife is only a very marginal advantage. There is less mass killing in Europa because people are less incented to do it more than by lack of implement. While I find maddening that assault rifles are authorized to the public in the USA, I could live with it if almost nobody bought them by lack of use, similar to how very few people actually buy a woodcutting axe.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

Heck, just check out the (in many cases) rather broad laws against ‘burglar’s tools’ with the level of on-the-spot decision making involved.

People have been arrested for ‘carrying a crowbar while black’.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
3 years ago

I don’t think culture vs law is an either/or situation. They both need to be addressed together. Sensible regulation of firearms among private citizens would ideally be accompanied by an effort to affect a change in how they’re portrayed in media.

Of course, the US Gov has a vested interest in glorifying the armed forces in media that would directly conflict with any effort to shift the public perception of firearms. They’re not going to pay for movies about marines playing hopscotch.

I almost wonder if the push for armed forces propaganda in TV and film is partially responsible for the public attitude towards firearms in the US to begin with.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Ohlmann, it’s a lot less likely that anyone carrying a knife (on the ground) could kill 50 people before being tackled, or just run away from. This seems more than “marginal advantage” to the people targeted.

1 2 3 5