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AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

Damn those AntiFa!

By David Futrelle

Seems like only yesterday that everyone to the left of Donald Trump was mad at the Nazis. Now for some reasons a lot of these same people are yelling about AntiFa. Nancy Pelosi has officially denounced AntiFa, and a piece in the generally liberalish Washington Post today declared that AntiFa are the “moral equivalent” of the literal Nazis they oppose.

Now I’m not exactly the most militant dude in the world but WHAT IN HOLY CRAP IS GOING ON. We are up against LITERAL NAZIS. One of them LITERALLY MURDERED A WOMAN with a car, and then the rest of them LAUGHED ABOUT IT and SAID IT WAS JUSTIFIED. They go to every so-called “free speech” rally they organize with the intent of doing bodily harm to as many people as possible. and unless we stop them it’s only a matter of time before they kill more people. So fuck this shit. Hug an AntiFa today.

On to the tweets. First, the dumb shit.

Now, some rebuttals. First, a good short thread on how the discussion has shifted from ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS to endless hand-wringing about antifas.

And here’s a response to the Washington Post thing by a Mother Jones journalist who was there at Berkeley.

https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/902969494808625152

Some historical perspective:

More AntiFa stuff:

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/902790386619318272

https://twitter.com/daniecal/status/902542063543009280

I defended the honor of George Orwell against an Alex Jones employee.

Snopes also has a thing to say about the attempts to portray the fascists and AntiFa as somehow equivalent:

AntiFa may have dealt with a lot of undeserved shit today, but happily our dear leader Donald Trump was also dealing with some richly deserved shit.

https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/903027267940491264

Meanwhile, the creator of Pepe is taking the Pepe Nazis to court and winning:

https://twitter.com/MaxTemkin/status/902700195577823232

And here are some animals!

https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/902839313276252160

https://twitter.com/CuteEmergency/status/902748977531162625

https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/903024790675611648

https://twitter.com/lordflaconegro/status/902687000544911362

 

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Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Leo

We can agree to disagree, but I hope you can see good faith is intended.

No, we really can’t. This is a situation where there is no middle ground. You are either on the side of nazis, or you are on the side of humanity. If you are on the side of humanity, you support crushing nazis with all necessary force, as that is the only way to be rid of them. Otherwise, you are on the side of nazis. Full stop. And yes, I am aware that I am saying that a majority of white Americans, and quite a large number of white Europeans, are nazi sympathizers. Including you.

though them not being fascists and not deserving it would seem possible if it’s ostensibly a free speech protest.

See, that’s exactly the problem; you believe it’s possible for them to be a fascist assembly and not deserve beatings.

Nazi, rather than just a typical Trump supporter.

The only difference is red hats instead of white hoods.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

“If Antifa can explain to me how they are identifying Nazis, that might help”

It’s easy. They identify themselves. By showing up and chanting Nazi slogans.

And advertising their “free speech marches” on Nazi websites and blogs.

And l… You know what? No. I’m done.

Fuck you.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@CleverForAGirl
Were they chanting ‘blood and soil’ at Berkeley, or at all the rallies/protests?

I was arguing that I don’t think going out with the active intention of using force is a good tactic. That’s it. Reasons for that are primarily that it’s not a good way to own over Dems who we might need as art of a long-term solution to the Nazi problem, and also the possibility of targeting people who aren’t Nazis, of extreme violent action from Nazis which could as we’ve seen be very bad in a crowd, of police brutality and risk of imprisonment, and that it’s not the only way to tackle the situation. I’m not clear on what amount of force is being considered acceptable or if there is any limit, again that’s something I asked.

I meant ‘so far’ as in ‘the way it’s panned out so far’, rather than that it’s gone too far. I’m not comfortable with everything that happened, rewatching some of the footage, though. I don’t think the threat of Nazis necessarily makes it right for force to be used against Trump supporters who aren’t with obvious Nazis, though you could argue that it does.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

obvious Nazis

But Leo they’re all obvious Nazis. Just because they don’t all don jackboots and have skulls on their uniforms, doesn’t mean that anyone who stands with them is in any doubt whatsoever what they stand for.

Heck, even the ‘ironic’ edgy kids know that. You think the ‘Kekistan’ flag design is just an accident?

And if you ally yourself with a Nazi you are a Nazi. There’s no halfway house ‘nazi adjacent’ or ‘nazi-light’ position.

You can’t be ‘a bit’ Nazi any more than you can be a bit pregnant. It’s an all or nothing thing.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

THERE WILL BE NOTHING THAT IS NICE ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE ENTRENCHED IN POSITIONS OF POWER

MERELY SAYING “don’t kill me” IS ENOUGH TO MAKE THEM THINk IT IS TOO FAR

WALKING ACROSS A BRIDGE IS TOO FAR

EXISTING AND DEMANDING HUMAN RIGHTS IS TOO FAR

THEIR GOAL IS TO EXTERMINATE AND ELIMINATE ANYONE WHO IS NOT A WHITE PERSON BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THE UNITED STATES EXISTS ONLY FOR THE WHITE RACE AND ANYTHING ELSE IS GENOCIDE COMITED AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE

ASKING THOSE WHO ARE IN DIRECT DANGER OF PHYSICAL HARM BY THESE PEOPLE TO SIT DOWN AND BE NICE OR THEY WON’T BE HELPED IS FUCKING GROSS DISGUSTING AND ENABLING OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND FACISM

ARE YOU PAYING ENOUGH FUCKING ATTENTION NOW OR DO WE NEED TO REPEAT LITERALLY EVERY FUCKING ARGUMENT WE’VE THROWN AT YOU AGAIN BEFORE YOU REALIZE YOU ARE REPEATING BULLSHIT CENTIST BOTH SIDERISM THAT IS ONLY GOING TO ALLOW THIS SHIT TO GET WORSE

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@Dali
On balance, if I thought that most people were Nazi sympathisers, which implies actual support for them, I don’t think I’d attempt actively fighting Nazis rather than trying just to get away from them. That doesn’t sound like it’d be a winning battle. You don’t actually have to fight British Greens, though, we’re not a threat. You’re being really black and white about this, when I didn’t say you shouldn’t stand up to Nazis.

Ok, you do think typical Trump supporters are legitimate targets, fair enough, thank you for clarifying that aspect.

@Tashilicious
If they’re chanting Nazi slogans, then identification isn’t an issue, but I didn’t get the impression they always do that. If a rally is advertised publicly as being about free speech, and that’s the impression people who are going past on the day of the rally get, you might get people who aren’t Nazis showing up or joining in. Am I to take it you don’t think Trump supporters are legitimate targets?

At no point have I said be nice. Shout all the curses you can think of at them, by all means, use force in immediate self-defence if you need to, by all means.

@Alan Robertshaw
Well, if it’s obvious to you, further tips on identifying them? I might be missing some, sure. I’m not sure all of the ‘edgy’ kids are totally 100% serious, they’re still horrible though. Some of them might grow out of it, too, the younger ones. But more importantly, it isn’t just them, but typical Trump supporters. If you’re going to throw things into a crowd, it’s not always possible to target perfectly, and just because we might be able to see that a specific out of uniform Nazi is a Nazi, doesn’t meant a typical Trump supporter understands that, or even that an anti-Trump Republican does. Dems were falling for the ‘free speech rally’ narrative. British Liberals and Labour supporters were, too. And some are arguing that everyone in that crowd is a legitimate target to begin with.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
3 years ago

@Leo, we’re hip to you. You’re restating the same crap you’ve been saying for…days? Wow. Yeah. Circular from the beginning. And you’re doing it all in a way that doesn’t violate the comment moderation policy so that there’s no immediate reason to discipline or ban you. You’re CLEARLY playing games. I don’t know why, and I don’t care. Stop. We don’t believe you.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

Yeah.
Concern trolling
JAQing off
tiptoeing the line of being “Nice” while knowingly making blatantly offensive remarks
I’m honestly just using you as a venting bag right now. Thanks, cupcake, it let off some steam.

*Blows a kiss*

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

Leo, fwiw, I think you are arguing in good faith but I think – in the reality we’re living in – you’re barking up some wrong trees (as others have pointed out with loads of examples).

a) wherever and whenever the nazis gather, it is 99.999% likely that they will attack vulnerable people, especially if there is no force ranged against them. antifa are thus 99.999% right if they show up with the knowledge that they are going to hit.
b) no matter what happens, the news will be spun like a ferris wheel in whatever direction suits those writing the news, so in practice the only thing antifa could do to avoid being blamed is not show up (and probably not even then).

I just wanted to note one detail: you said that

The US can’t build camps tomorrow, the rest of the world would be outraged

but the US already has built camps and nobody says much: reservations are deliberately starved of resources, healthcare, education and pretty much everything, with the ongoing goal of reducing the native american nations to an invisible silence hidden behind a couple of picturesque photo-ops (and if they protest a pipeline endangering them, they are attacked and maligned); and the US ‘law enforcement’, ‘justice’ and prison system is set up so that oops-by-sheer-coincidence it drains resources especially from mostly BAME communities and uses a very significant number of black people as slave labour. They may not get called “camps” but they do the same job.

I probably share quite a few of your feelings, but I think those feelings are probably misguiding us.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

Meanwhile, Antifa are distributing food and medicine in Houston. (Proud Boys, incidentally, are patrolling with guns looking for ‘looters’. Just in case Leo wondered what nazis get up to when they’re not terrorizing black churches and synagogues.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Nazi sympathisers

I think ‘sympathisers’ is redundant. You might not actively take part in the activities, but that doesn’t make you a sympathiser it makes you a lazy Nazi.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@Still Fiqah
It’s not been that long, and I’ve responded it in between doing other stuff, and people kept responding to me too. I thought that if I left it rather than trying to explain, that would give the impression of acting in bad faith, and since I’d like to be able to continue commenting, did not wish that to be the impression. I have several times now tried to say that I can’t really say anything else other than agree to disagree. I came in initially in response to some others saying the same thing, although I didn’t agree with everything about how they expressed it, which I should have said.

Me: I don’t think using force is a good tactic.
You: You’re clearly playing games.

Huh? That really seems unfair. I think you can strongly disagree with me without that. I won’t respond further on this topic to those who seem to think I’m acting in bad faith since it probably is pointless.

@Tashilicious
Well, great, that shouting at me made you feel better, it makes me feel pretty shitty since I sincerely hate conflict, anxiety disorder. : / Isn’t ‘cupcake’ the term the MRAs use to women they don’t agree with?

If you told me what I said that was blatantly offensive, I could retract it. Not everyone here seemed to think so, though, and you just said I was being ‘Nice’, so that sounds a hard line to tiptoe. I wasn’t, I’m sincere, and I’m getting a worse reaction than ChimericMind, who was ruder. I’m not going to yell at you. I’ll leave it there.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

Leo says:

Specific examples, which I have given, aren’t hypotheticals, they are facts.

No, you are building hypotheticals out of bits and pieces of real-world events. You see a thing on the news and, rather than doing the work to find out what really went down or what lies you’re being told, you either accept the given scenario or make one up.

You don’t know anything, yet you imagine you’re better situated than the people on the ground to decide which strategic goal everyone should be working towards and what tactics are best for it. The very model of a modern armchair general, you are.

Nor is it about whether they deserve it or not

Liar.

Maybe the fascists are just trying to look edgy? What if they’re old ladies? Maybe their weaponry is merely symbolic? What if they haven’t openly advocated genocide? Maybe they’re not immediate threats?

You’ve come up with a rather lot of excuses for why fascists might not deserve to be met with violent resistance. And these are, like everything, treated hypothetically by you. These things are not hypothetical. Not to a great many people. And thus your endless suppositions, and the ignorance they’re predicated on, are of no use to anyone except the fascists.

So shut the fuck up. And go away.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

Good job to Antifa for distributing those supplies!
Proud Boys horrible as usual, god, are they legally allowed to do that? Not that it would stop them if not, obviously.

@opposablethumbs
Thank you, I truly appreciate that.

I’m willing to change my views to avoid barking up the wrong trees. I do agree with Antifa showing up, I don’t agree with the active intent of using force against anyone present. I do agree with using it as it’s needed in self-defence, or defence of others.

That’s a really good point about the reservations, that’s something that should be reported so much more. I was really shocked to see what was happening with the pipeline. I think the world would be more outraged if we knew about these things more, there’s been more criticism of the US since Trump, and BLM has had a positive impact in raising awareness.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

Oh, and Leo? Read this while you’re shutting the fuck up and going away. It was written just for people like you.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@A. Noyd
If I’m wrong about Berkeley, tell me how, please?

I’ve just read it, thank you for the link. He doesn’t seem to significantly disagree with me at all, and seems to show there can be cooperation between even entirely non-violent protesters and Antifa. He’s going further than me in wanting Antifa to be non-violent, I just think force should be reserved for immediate defence.

Reading the comments, it does seem there are varying views, including one who felt less safe.

No, that’s not about whether actual fascists deserve it or not. It’s about whether they are fascists, whether you can tell, and whether it’s a good idea. You could make a case Trump supporters deserve it too, Dali thinks so. You could make a case for violent revolution, too, but it’s not really what I want to do, I just wind up back at democratic socialist, so would be a rubbish revolutionary it seems. Maybe my crime here is being too soft, I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem the worst possible thing to be.

TreePerson
TreePerson
3 years ago

@Leo
Nazis by definition are an immediate threat to marginalized groups when they plan these “free speech” rallies they show up armed and intending to inflict injury or death upon either counter protesters or marginalized people in the community,
if you go to one of these “free speech” rallies (in reality a preplanned offensive paramilitary action against civilian targets) then you are either there to support them or potential collateral damage and its the fault of the nazis for lying abut their premeditated violence.

Want to know how we can tell what there motives are?
They refuse to show up if they can not be armed to the teeth,
and more obviously they fucking talk abut there bloody motives and objectives and intentional deceptions.

If police actually did their supposed job and actually prevent nazis from attacking people antifa would not need to do it for them,
and Berkley was a very clear case of defense of another, if milo was allowed to speak then the students he would have doxed on stage would have been forced to flee the collage or face harassment, violence and possibly death, thats not speculation thats what happened at the other campuses he spoke at.

And you know what? At this point I’m seriously thinking that the laws and customs of war should be used here since it actually covers this stuff.

Voluntary human shields lose the protected status normally afforded civilians and become valid targets,
the false nature of the advertising for these rallies could constitute the deliberate placing of involuntary human shields to protect combatants this would be a war crime,
the failure to wear an identifying symbol that can be recognized from a distance is also a war crime and can be punished by summery execution.

In other words: nazis planning violent action and calling it a “free speech rally” shuld be tried for war crimes by military tribunal,
people showing up to a planned violent action with the intent of shielding nazis are valid targets,
nazis not wearing swastikas and engaging in combat can be summarily executed for war crimes.

Antifa for there part are lawful combatants clearly marking themselves by their all black uniform and mask and acting to protect civilians and medics bearing the protected sign of the red cross from unlawful enemy combatants,
counter protesters constitute civilian noncombatants as they intend to peacefully protest and do not act as a shield for antifa but need to be protected by antifa as they are targets of the nazi combatants,
keep in mind nazi violence does not end once the rally is over and the best way to prevent it with out resorting to lethal action (taking prisoners is not a possibility for antifa given the lack of suitable detention facilities) is to brake there will to do violence by forcing them to retreat either by intimidating them or failing that engaging them in direct combat and forcing them from the field.

cornychips
cornychips
3 years ago

Ok, you do think typical Trump supporters are legitimate targets, fair enough, thank you for clarifying that aspect.

10 points goes to the troll for deliberate obtuseness.
Uh-ohhh! If Dali doesn’t respond to that statement good enough, THAT MEANS THE REAL NAZIS ARE ANTIFA!! Dun-dun-dunnnnn!!!!!!!

Seriously Leo, if you were arguing in good faith, you wouldn’t be sealioning around here.

You might not think you are a troll, but you actions are writing a different narrative.

You spent all night doubling down, getting into the semantics of when and where its ok to punch a nazi. gross.

ETA
LEO:

“You could make a case Trump supporters deserve it too, Dali thinks so”

GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE, DISINGENUOUS COMMENTS.

Dali didn’t respond to you fast enough with your little turd dropping and this is your response.

Maybe some people aren’t glued to the fucking computer all day/night and can’t respond ten minutes later.

I SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOUR BULLSHIT.

ETA again: blockquote monster, You finally got me!
*shakes fist at the sky

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Leo I’m gonna post this under the assumption (which I actually ain’t clinging to anymore) that you’re still trying to argue in good faith.

You can see that your shit is causing distress and anger among most of us. Can’t you draw conclusions regarding what it might mean about your rhetoric ? Even if you think you’re arguing in good faith, you have to see that it’s certainly not having the effect that “good faith” usually has.

Yet you’re doubling down. Worse, you’re actively ignoring the signs of distress and anger, and gleefully causing some more in the process.

Don’t you think that looks a lot like trolling ?

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

Leo says:

If I’m wrong about Berkeley, tell me how, please?

No. If you were interested in the truth, you would have already done your fucking research. Like…reading the OP to this very comment thread. I don’t owe you an education. You owe it to everyone to get the facts straight before judging what they’re doing.

He doesn’t seem to significantly disagree with me at all

Read it again. Six more times if that’s what it takes. He’s talking about you when he says, “Your moral authority is bankrupt and you’re not helping. You’re a hypocrite.”

No, that’s not about whether actual fascists deserve it or not.

Sure it is, you liar. You’re way too eager to No True Scotsman as many fascists as you can to safety. You’ll give them all the benefit of the doubt while refusing to do the same for the people whose very lives depend on knowing who the fascists are. I mean this next bit?

It’s about whether they are fascists, whether you can tell

This is exactly why I’m telling you to shut the fuck up. At best, you’ve got it into your head that because you can’t tell, no one really can tell. At worst, this is a calculated attempt to sow mistrust for antifa. Either way, it’s not a useful or intelligent thing for a supposed leftist to say.

So. Shut the fuck up. And go away.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Maybe my crime here is being too soft, I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem the worst possible thing to be

You’re being soft about it, yes, @Leo. That’s okay, everyone has different tolerance levels and awareness levels.

You’re being soft about it because you can afford to be. I don’t know your situation over there, but I’m betting that you aren’t in one of the groups that is being threatened with genocide. You can afford to say “violence makes us look bad, we’re better off if we can maintain the moral high ground of avoiding violence – it’ll attract more people to our cause.”

There are many people here who can’t do that. These white supremacists can and will brutalize and murder; they have been doing so. They’re ready to start their genocide, right now. When you say “we shouldn’t use violence against them”, you’re telling these people – including the people literally on this blog replying to you – to lay down and die for the sake of tactics and optics. To bleed for the sake of your strategic opinions.

I’m not being hyperbolic in saying this. This is the actual situation in North America. You’re suggesting that the lives of the very people you’re talking to are bargaining chips in this war, and you’re suggesting that they should be spent.

So yeah, you’re making people sort of angry.

The price of a white person being soft in this is that a young muslim or black child hardens. A vulnerable person, barraged by hate and threatened with death, looking for support and sees only a throng of humanity arrayed against them. Divisions draw deeper, and the problem worsens.

It’s okay if you can’t fight them yourself – there are a lot of ways to support the fight against the literal Nazis. This isn’t one of them.

http://static.dhne.ws/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/012_fluttershy_cloud_cushion_vector_by_arctickiwi-d4ty8u1.png

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

This fucking thread is still going?

I think it’s relevant that that guy didn’t get away with it, though.

That particular guy didn’t get away with it, but he’s demonstrated that there are people among them who are completely happy to lie in order to smear the antifa. Chances are that there are others.

Not only that, but there will be people who saw the guy’s original claim or heard about it from some Republican relative or something but didn’t see the news that it was a lie. So the “optics” are still bad for antifa. The damage was done.

Catalpa
Catalpa
3 years ago

I’ve stated that I think it’s justified and tactically Ok to use immediate self-defence, and to defend others, so protecting a synagogue that was under attack would come under that.

At which point does the violence become immediate self-defence in this case? Do the Nazis have to get to the synagogue and start lighting it on fire before it’s okay to beat them? Do we have to wait and see if they attack the people near/inside the synagogue before it’s okay to beat them?

I ask because in Charlottesville there were antifa who stepped in to prevent Nazis from getting at St. Paul’s Memorial Church, and the clergy and folks who were peacefully gathered there. But apparently that violence was “pre-emptive” and “bad optics” for you… since the antifa succeeded in preventing the Nazis from attacking the church, I presume? We just have to wait until the Nazis start killing people before we can physically fight them, I suppose… Wait, no, they’ve already done that. But I suppose we can’t know if they are “real” Nazis until they each individually kill people. Just gotta wait until then.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ok, you do think typical Trump supporters are legitimate targets, fair enough, thank you for clarifying that aspect.

Fuck you for deliberately twisting things like this. This isn’t what she said. We were talking about people who go to Nazi rallies in MAGA hats instead of white sheets or swastika armbands. Dali never said we should track down every Trump voter and beat them up like you’re trying to imply she did.

If they’re chanting Nazi slogans, then identification isn’t an issue, but I didn’t get the impression they always do that. If a rally is advertised publicly as being about free speech, and that’s the impression people who are going past on the day of the rally get, you might get people who aren’t Nazis showing up or joining in. Am I to take it you don’t think Trump supporters are legitimate targets?

This is why people think you’re a troll. Or are you really this dense? If so, you’re like a supermassive black hole.

Haven’t you ever heard of a dog whistle? Free speech in this case (as it often is) is code for hate speech. The people who show up to these know that damn well. If there are a few people who don’t side with white nationalists who show up, they would see all the Nazi swag, hear the Nazi chants and be turned off enough to leave, taking them out of any danger.

Also, if antifas were really using indiscriminate violence against anyone that seems like they might be a Trump supporter, the evidence would be there and it would be being pushed hard by the media. Instead there’s one real bike lock story and a bunch of phony fabricated scaremongering. You arguing against a problem that doesn’t exist. You’re like those MRAs who come in here claiming that feminists are in a conspiracy to spermjack men.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

You know, Leo, I’m actually inclined toward sympathy toward the position that violence is bad. I held that position myself as recently as that incident where Richard Spencer was punched in the face by antifa.

But my arguments against violence were more substantive than yours. “It looks bad!” wasn’t one of them. No, I’m not going to tell you what they were. I’m still of the opinion that violence is almost always bad, and not because of optics.

I have come around to the position that violence against Nazis and fascists when they organize is justified. Not only justified, but the most morally defensible response. When Nazis get together to march and rally, it’s morally defensible to stand there and conduct nonviolent resistance. However, it’s more so to get up in their grille and punch them in the face.

We all do what we’re capable of doing, and not all of us can be antifa, for physical or psychological reasons. I’m certainly not young enough or able enough to get into a street brawl with Nazis. That’s why I’m grateful that there are people who are young enough and able enough to do that, so I don’t have to try. Antifa put their own safety on the line to protect those who can’t do that, and then you stand there and wag your finger and scold them about how their tactics are not literally ideal and how their optics are bad.

These reasons on which you keep leaning are really, really thin. “It looks bad” is the most milquetoast critique of antifa. There’s no moral grounding there. There’s no logical underpinning. It’s an incredibly lazy criticism. “Your choices are not ideal” is even worse. You are intellectually lazy and your arguments reflect that. You’re holding up a shield and it turns out to be made of a single layer of paint with nothing behind it. It’s super-easy to punch through because there’s nothing there.

I would have thought this method would be too error prone, personally, lots of Trump supporters have MAGA hats, and some types of force such as thrown objects don’t allow for that much specific targeting.

There are two things wrong with this. First, Trump supporters are fascists, definitionally. The basis of Trump’s appeal is racist fascism, and nobody puts on a MAGA hat without being at least okay with that. If you’re okay with fascism, you’re a fascist, full stop.

Second, anyone who marches with Nazis is a Nazi. So someone marching with Nazis in a MAGA hat is easy to identify as a Nazi. Ta-da!

Your hand-wringing over how haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard it is to identify Nazis is about as logically robust as your obsession with optics. Nazis don’t hide during their marches. They get out there and heil Trump. They carry Nazi flags and wear Nazi armbands. They have Nazi tattoos. It ain’t hard to peg them. You want to claim it’s so, so, so incredibly difficult to identify someone with a Nazi armband as a Nazi, and yet you want to be seen as arguing in good faith. That’s not a good-faith argument, there.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago
Bobbie LobBomb
Bobbie LobBomb
3 years ago

@Still Fiqah You’ve convinced me.

Also this thread is only going in response to him, so it’s time to just move on. Fuck it.

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@Sinkable John
I figured it was a misunderstanding that I hoped to clear up, that’s all, and wanted to understand people’s views better, which I now do, and I’ve acknowledged the perspective. I don’t think that a troll would try to clarify and explain their perspective or acknowledge other’s views.

@weirwoodtreehugger
My understanding is that she means Trump supporters at rallies who are alongside identifiable Nazis/Alt-Right are legitimate targets, which seems to accurately describe what happened at some rallies, and I can see the reasoning behind that. I’d asked for clarification several times, twisting her words is not my intent.

It does seem like there’s a disagreement between whether Trump supporters at rallies are legitimate targets or not? Some have said they are, Policy of Madness has stated that they’re fascists anyway and that being at a rally with Nazis is proof that they are Nazis and thus legitimate targets, some seem to disagree with my stating that that’s their opinion.

Haven’t you ever heard of a dog whistle? Free speech in this case (as it often is) is code for hate speech.

Right, I know that, you know that, but my point was that ‘if a rally is advertised publicly as about free speech’ that I’m not sure that Trump supporters will pick up on that. I’ve seen enough Dems not pick up on the dogwhistle to think that could happen. But you feel that for those actually there at the rally, it would be obvious what the true intent of the rally was, so that’s fair enough, that may indeed be the case as you say.

@Catalpa
If you can see they’re going to target the synagogue, of course stop them. I don’t disagree with the actions of Antifa in defence.

@Scildfreja
Thanks for feeling it’s Ok, I can understand why there’s a problem with it. I am definitely not asking anyone to lay down and die. I fear that when the use of force is advocated, that marginalised people are most at risk, though, so I feel confrontation might be better avoided if possible. I can see why people feel it’s gone beyond that point. I can see why they’d be upset if I said they should be totally non-violent at all times, but I don’t think that they should.

I am in one of the groups threatened, I’m a disabled woman.

@Policy of Madness
It would probably sound milquetoast because I’m not actually intending on making a very strong anti-violence statement here, because morally, I can see the reasoning, including for revolution. If I said ‘I don’t think it’s the time for revolution right now’, would that seem understandable? It seems as though making a mild statement disagreeing with the use of force other than in self-defence is regarded as worse than making a strong one? You’re inclined towards sympathy with the position that violence is outright bad, I’m inclined towards sympathy to the position that it’s justified. So ‘force is Ok in self-defence and defence of others but is better avoided if possible’ seems like it would be an understandable position.

I really don’t want to upset anyone, that wasn’t my intent, so I will leave it there and just keep on reading up on what’s happening, I can’t really say anything else about this specific issue anyway.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If someone goes to a Nazi rally, they are a Nazi. Why in the fucking fuck is this so hard to understand? THERE ARE NO NON-NAZI TRUMP SUPPORTERS MARCHING AT A GODDAMN NAZI RALLY.

Seriously. It’s either trolling or black levels of density here.

Hambeast, disorderly she-tornado and breaker of windows
Hambeast, disorderly she-tornado and breaker of windows
3 years ago

I think Leo is a sea lion. I stopped reading their screeds at page 5 because they’re all the same. Nice job by everyone here responding!

I’ll make a little confession here; I used to think that Dali was kind of extreme in her comments and views. It didn’t bother me enough to try and rebut anything she said but I found myself shaking my head at some of her comments.

But now, these things have been percolating in my head for well over a year and events have unfolded in that time that have made me realize that Dali* is absolutely right. A middle aged, white, middle class, straight, cis woman has started to wake up. It’s uncomfortable for sure, but less than nothing compared to what oppressed folk have been dealing with since forever.

I’m not up for violence myself, but I’m ready to stand behind whomever is willing to stand up to fascism, however they have to do it. I can bake delicious, energy-dense cookies and make good-looking signs even if I’m too cowardly to risk injury and arrest.

*and not just Dali, of course! I learn so much from everyone here, but as far as the discussion going on here, it’s mostly Dali, Axe, and Fiqah that stand out for me.

Dimmy
Dimmy
3 years ago

Not-quite-long-time lurker, first-time poster.

I just wanted to say how flabbergasted I am that this thread has been hijacked so completely, for so long, by one person.

Especially when that person came right out of the gate with *this*:

To me the thing is, is Trump a particularly bad President (he’s a bad President, for definite) exactly, depending on how you look at it?

Obviously this is someone who either doesn’t know, or doesn’t care, how bad things have gotten in the United States in the past two years. And given their behavior over the last couple of days…it’s pretty clear they’re the latter. At this point, Leo’s best-case scenario — the “good-faith” scenario! — is that he or she is Lord Faarquad.

“Some of *you* may die…but it’s a sacrifice *I* am willing to make.”

Worst-case scenario, Still Fiqah is correct, and everything Leo says about himself/herself — including his/her intent and political affiliation — is an outright lie.

My flabbers are in a state of 100% gast.

Bobbie LobBomb
Bobbie LobBomb
3 years ago

I feel, being transgender, I really am in no position to decry riots because, you know. Stonewall. Any arguments that violent insurrection can’t lead to a better world can be rebutted by pointing to the Stonewall uprising. Also, I can’t tut tut violence, because push HAS turned to shove before and I know I’m not above it all’. Do I like violence? No. Some people live to fight in a physical sense, but that’s not me. But that doesn’t mean I can’t play support roles. Front line soldiers would get nowhere without rear echelon support. And although disability, mental illness issues, and PTSD has sidelined me from the fight where once I was ‘boots on the ground’, I still hope to do my bit however possible.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

The Democratic Party is definitely problematic for the left. On the one hand, if you don’t vote for the Democrat, you’re effectively voting for the Republican. This means that we have to do a calculation, to determine if this Democrat is sufficiently ideologically inoffensive that voting for this person is better than the Republican winning. Given how odious Republicans have become in the last ~50 years, it’s usually an easy metric.

On the other hand, the Democratic Party is fully aware of this, and knows that they can run any ol’ Republican Lite candidate and count on a certain amount of support. They’re convinced that abandoning the base in pursuit of the elusive center-right independent is the key to winning, and like all career politicians they prioritize winning over everything else.

So Pelosi’s cowardice wrt antifa is fully expected, and the only surprise is that it didn’t come sooner. I doubt Pelosi personally hates antifa, but it’s in her perceived political best interest to throw them under the bus, so that’s exactly what she does. Fucking over the left is what the Democratic Party does best, after all.

Bobbie LobBomb
Bobbie LobBomb
3 years ago

EVERY TIME the Dems lose, they think “I guess we have to go closer to the center!” DESPITE the fact that, at least that their last two presidents won not because they campaigned as centrists (despite how they governed) but because they appealed to the best of the left. But honestly, they get on board with leftest causes when feet in the streets had already brought us to the tipping point. Then they swoop in, jump on board, and assume credit. I’m not so illiberal as to think there’s no place for electoral politics, but at the same time, I recognize that they ain’t gonna save us. We’ve gotta save ourselves.

CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
3 years ago

Jesus fuck leo.

OK I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I live near Berkeley, the media spun it as “those antifa destroying free speech” and spun the nazis as “trump supporters”

Nazis showed up.
Antifa showed up.
Shit got real.

I have zero doubt that if antifa hadn’t showed up the people peacefully protesting milo would have gotten maimed/killed when the nazis showed up.

CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
CleverForAGirl - microprostitute
3 years ago

Ah you were talking about the more recent protests in that case, fuck you. Keep fucking off until you get back here and then fuck off some more. May you never find your shoes and your path be eternally littered with vintage legos. May you live in interesting times and may you always get *exactly* what you wish for.

For those that aren’t leo who don’t quite get it.

Nazis always show up with the intent to do violence. We can see this during ww2, during the 80s and on the punk scene.

We need antifa bc most peaceful protestors aren’t prepared for the level of violence nazis dish out and if not out numbered they *will* be violent, a favorite tactic being to jump someone who’s broken off from the group.

And yes, we can identify nazis, we’ve been doing it for over 50 years.

Tov01
Tov01
3 years ago

Is leo still sealioning around? Seriously, go away. You have nothing to say that hasn’t been rebutted a thousand times already.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent (Now Mobile!)
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent (Now Mobile!)
3 years ago

@Leo

*Ahem*

nyoom.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
3 years ago

@Leo: Others have stated it, but I wanted to make this particular bit clearer. When you state that the 4chan memesters aren’t really Nazis, you are incorrect. Just because they may not truly believe in white supremacy doesn’t absolve them of standing with white supremacists. They would happily LOL away while people are murdered, not because they truly believe that minorities are lesser beings, but because they don’t place value on anyone’s life other than their own. They’ll happily participate in any atrocity as long as it’s amusing and they believe themselves to be safe. In their own way, they’re arguably worse than the Nazis because at least the Nazis believe in something. Violence (or the credible threat thereof) is actually the best way to deal with them, because they’re even more cowardly than the Nazis. People who are pure trolls aren’t convinced by optics– they’ll perversely attach themselves all the stronger to the cause if it seems “edgy” enough.

You can’t fight an optics war when the fighting has already begun, because the deck is completely stacked against you. Attempting to engage in it is like committing to a strategy of “trial by champion” when the other side is fighting with its entire force at once, because you think some sort of mystical penalty will befall them when they break the rules they have no interest in agreeing to.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Chimeric

In their own way, they’re arguably worse than the Nazis because at least the Nazis believe in something.

http://ooquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/10-the-big-lebowski-quotes.jpg

[Image desc: Walter Sobchak (John Goodman) sitting at a bar with the Dude (Jeff Bridges) and Donny (Steve Buscemi), saying “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it’s an ethos]

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Welcome, Dimmy!

Bobbie LobBomb
Bobbie LobBomb
3 years ago

@ChimericMind

They would happily LOL away while people are murdered, not because they truly believe that minorities are lesser beings, but because they don’t place value on anyone’s life other than their own.

Yes. Bravo. Exactly. Masterfully said. Although, I don’t entirely agree:

I believe they do think minorities are lesser beings.They also believe the majority… a.k.a. ‘the normies’…. are lesser beings. They are on their own side only, completely nihilistic, and delighted by death and suffering. They gleefully share photos of gruesome death ‘for the lulz’, and are excited by the prospect of everybody else getting theirs. They are utter reprobates who ‘just want to see the world burn’. Don’t think they’re joking when they say this.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@kupo:

Edit: Well, that’s tiny. How about a link to the article?

And there it’s extremely blurry, as are most of the other images, with three exceptions.

I’d say they need to hire a better photographer, but the blurriness problem extends to line art and charts. I’m guessing software problem at their end, sending a much lower resolution image than they should which the receiving end browser then upscales.

@Sinkable John:

So you don’t have to worry about optics. You have to worry about that church about to burn, about that person about to get beat up, and about that Antifa who’s about to step in but would sure love it if, for once, they didn’t get blamed for it afterwards.

Sometimes you just have to wade in, do the right thing, and get blamed for it afterwards. Wasn’t that the lesson of The Dark Knight, when Batman took the blame for Two-Face’s actions? Perhaps it’s in the world’s nature that Antifa needs to be like Batman more than Superman: feared and hated by much of the populace, if he’s to be able to do his job effectively.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

Leo says:

so I will leave it there

Well, thank fuckin’ finally!

I’m just going to point out one more thing this troll said, because I think it’s important to make clear:

I am definitely not asking anyone to lay down and die.

This is a lie. When someone says something like, “I do agree with using [violence] as it’s needed in self-defence, or defence of others,” as if that’s not what’s already happening, they are showing that they are indifferent to the reality of others’ peril. They are, at best, more interested in their own appearance of reasonableness than making sure it has anything to do with the situation at hand.

Moralizing that depends on denying the immediacy of other people’s peril is, in fact, asking those people to lay down and die.

And this callousness is all the more obvious when it comes from someone who worries at length about a hypothetical Accidental MAGA-Hat Granny getting a bike lock to the back of her fragile skull for merely wandering confusedly through a free speech rally.

Bryce
Bryce
3 years ago

As most people know, antifa are comprised of mainly of anarcho communist groups with militant elements. Sometimes threatening language is thrown at anyone not on board with that from obnoxious individuals. True, some seem to loathe liberal social democrats with almost as much gusto as fascists.

I have reservations about the tactics and the rhetoric, however, forceful confrontations and possibly violent measures against fascists rallying where they shouldn’t be is just about unavoidable now. Really no alternative unless people want neo-nazi gatherings to start reaching critical mass. The target of far right riots isn’t going to be shop windows or garbage bins.

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Leo is sure working hard to present Nazis as sympathetic by suggesting they’re merely misunderstood, possibly helpless, elderly women, who might have merely been in the wrong place at the wrong time and miiiight not even really want to kill millions of people.

There’s a name for that.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

Is that word “Nazi appologist”, or, if we want to be technical, a Quisling.

Old Besom, Priestess of Anoia
Old Besom, Priestess of Anoia
3 years ago

My, what masterful trolling from Leo!

Hello, folks. I’ve commented before and have been (probably) hostile because I’m a brown person in South Asia, and the US and Europe-centric conversations here have annoyed me no end, especially when us brown folks in South Asia will be at the receiving end of foreign policy from both of those continents. The lack of acknowledgement of that especially during election time pissed me off mightily. I mean, we’re making quite enough trouble for ourselves already (Fascism? We have ours! We have worse than Trump, seriously, everything you see in the US has already happened and is still happening over here! The north of our country might happily nuke the south because the south is full of commies and refuses to speak the right language!), thank you, do not need more shit flung our way from over there.

I don’t even remember what name I used then. Or email id.

So that’s my disclaimer.

I’m commenting now because I’m heartened by the response to fascism – we could learn from you, frankly, my sense of superiority over the damn Americans is fast eroding because you’re rising and we’re not. We have the numbers and it’s past time for our (next) revolution but we’re all just on Facebook, mumbling. I thought we were better. We’re not. You’re doing better. We should look to you and learn, and rise. I hope we will. We’re working on it, anyway.

Anyway, about Leo – what bullshit. No, sorry, bullshit would be excellent for my plants. This is catshit, which I believe is pretty useless, can’t even compost.

“There’s a time for violence, which is when it’s for self-defence or defence of others, I agree, it’s just not now because some of those people marching with Nazis are fine people and things don’t really seem all that bad” seems to be the gist of this person’s entire derailing rambling.

So:

They don’t believe that vulnerable people face imminent threat when Nazis assemble and march – how nice for them.

And/Or

They don’t think the people who are vulnerable and threatened matter, and so it doesn’t count as the right kind of self-defence or defence of others

And/Or

They think how it looks is the most important thing, so what if a few people – the right/wrong kind of people – get hurt or are killed along the way, that would be really good optics: this is patently wrong, plenty of people have been hurt and killed and the establishment doesn’t really care

And/Or

Those who march with Nazis deserve protection from Antifa and that’s the priority.

All of that is catshit. Apologies to cats, but really, that’s the catshit of lactose intolerant cats who got into the cream and lapped all of it up, and pooped all over the nice needlepoint cushions.

Also, notice the bingo card coming out, too. Social anxiety, too, now? As somebody with crippling social anxiety, let me just say wow, Leo, you have an excellent handle on it to be able to come back to a message board where people are very vehemently disagreeing with you and keep responding, because I’d have had at least one panic attack and at least five drinks by now, and I’d be hiding behind the couch, looking at the laptop as if it might explode. Tell me how you do it, I need a lot of prepping and handwaving conversations with myself before I can even post on a new board. Your coping mechanism must be really good. However, it does remind me of the Tumblr image – the white dude stick figure typing away with a speech bubble ‘As a person of color, I think…’

You know, Leo is worse than those who categorically state that violence is wrong, period. Because Leo is of the belief that when things are bad enough, violence is warranted, so it follows that they believe that it’s not bad enough now, despite all evidence and all that people have told them. That’s either willful ignorance or frank admission that they don’t think the people who are at serious risk now are worth protecting. People who after being given a clear rundown of how bad things are, still categorically state that violence is wrong are sometimes (not always, not often, but at least it’s a possibility) brave people who are willing to put their bodies and lives on the line for the sake of non-violent protest, as a shield for vulnerable people when Nazis march. And yes, that kind of sacrifice can make excellent “optics” if backed by excellent social media tactics to make sure that the right narrative is being spun, and that is a huge uphill battle when the media is full of Leos.

When you make even lurkers extremely angry, you know you’re doing something very wrong. Please go away and try to understand why you either think people are not at risk of imminent bodily harm when Nazis march, or why you think those who march with Nazis need protection more than those against whom the Nazis march.

Also – Dali, Fiqah, you’re both really wonderful. I will try to be more like you, in my context.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
3 years ago

Welcome back Besom, and thanks for your post.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

A little bit of good news (well, kind of. Obviously it’s very bad news – though not a huuuuge surprise – that some serving soldiers are nazis, but it’s good news that they’ve been arrested for it)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/four-held-on-suspicion-of-being-members-of-outlawed-neo-nazi-group-national-action