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AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

Damn those AntiFa!

By David Futrelle

Seems like only yesterday that everyone to the left of Donald Trump was mad at the Nazis. Now for some reasons a lot of these same people are yelling about AntiFa. Nancy Pelosi has officially denounced AntiFa, and a piece in the generally liberalish Washington Post today declared that AntiFa are the “moral equivalent” of the literal Nazis they oppose.

Now I’m not exactly the most militant dude in the world but WHAT IN HOLY CRAP IS GOING ON. We are up against LITERAL NAZIS. One of them LITERALLY MURDERED A WOMAN with a car, and then the rest of them LAUGHED ABOUT IT and SAID IT WAS JUSTIFIED. They go to every so-called “free speech” rally they organize with the intent of doing bodily harm to as many people as possible. and unless we stop them it’s only a matter of time before they kill more people. So fuck this shit. Hug an AntiFa today.

On to the tweets. First, the dumb shit.

Now, some rebuttals. First, a good short thread on how the discussion has shifted from ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS to endless hand-wringing about antifas.

And here’s a response to the Washington Post thing by a Mother Jones journalist who was there at Berkeley.

https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/902969494808625152

Some historical perspective:

More AntiFa stuff:

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/902790386619318272

https://twitter.com/daniecal/status/902542063543009280

I defended the honor of George Orwell against an Alex Jones employee.

Snopes also has a thing to say about the attempts to portray the fascists and AntiFa as somehow equivalent:

AntiFa may have dealt with a lot of undeserved shit today, but happily our dear leader Donald Trump was also dealing with some richly deserved shit.

https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/903027267940491264

Meanwhile, the creator of Pepe is taking the Pepe Nazis to court and winning:

https://twitter.com/MaxTemkin/status/902700195577823232

And here are some animals!

https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/902839313276252160

https://twitter.com/CuteEmergency/status/902748977531162625

https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/903024790675611648

https://twitter.com/lordflaconegro/status/902687000544911362

 

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A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

nparker says:

Violence is something that is always a last resort, always. […] No, there is no moral obligation here to get violent. To suggest there is automatically means telling the most vulnerable members of our society that being plunged into a state of constant violent conflict is absolutely fine […]

No one is suggesting you or any other particular person has such a moral obligation. Your mistaken impression is based on your failure to understand that a) “the most vulnerable” have never not been the targets of constant violence, and b) the last resort stage is already here.

There’s no role for antifa in a world without fascists. Their emergence is a sign that non-violent means have not been enough. If you want to champion the most vulnerable members of society, the least useful thing you can do is wag your finger at antifa for using the “wrong” tactics (ie. get up on a high horse). Worry about fixing your own tactics instead.

LeftWingFox
LeftWingFox
3 years ago

So… I think I posted this a while back, but it feels relevant.

I was bullied severely in Jr. High. Repeatedly physically assaulted, and had friends turn on me. The only thing that stopped the bullying was fighting back. Literally. Punching the ringleader in the gut on the dance floor. Kicking a fellow boy scout in the chest hard enough to bruise his ribs. Getting into a fight in the basement of drama class. The consensus among my friends was that you don’t fight fair with a bully; you scare the living shit out of them.

It works. And it sucks.

To this day, I have to struggle with disproportionately violent impulses when subjected to even the mildest of rough-housing. It encouraged me to accept disproportional retribution for slights.

What would have worked better would have been a functioning authority. Had I not been scolded by authorities for going to them, had I not been subject to retaliation by the bully’s network for reporting them, had the school officials given a single flying fuck about assault and battery in the hallways, it wouldn’t have been necessary.

But it was.

Police stood by in Charlottesville. Police did nothing when the Nazis pepper-sprayed the counter-protesters by the statue. They did nothing after a group attacked DeAndre Harris, and had to be shamed into it by Shaun King and amateur detectives. They did nothing as they threatened by standers, or shot at them. They only acted once someone deliberately plowed a car into protestors, an action the GOP has been trying to legalize in multiple states.

In the face of that level of institutional collapse, fucking right I support Antifa. While not every act of violence is justifiable, given the level of motivated disinformation promoted against them, I’m not going to reflexively condemn “both sides”.

Antifa shouldn’t be necessary; but they are. Never start a fight, but be damn sure to finish one.

FrickleFrackle
FrickleFrackle
3 years ago

I kind of support AntiFa but I just know I couldn’t do it. I like weapons but any real-life violence, even against people that deserve it, makes me feel bad. I read a post about how to fight someone, in the context of how not to get raped. While I support it, it made me sad because it made me realize how real violence is, that you might have to hurt someone badly enough to seriously injure or kill them lest it happen to you. I know its a result of privilege but I’m a soft person, and I hope to both live and die a soft person. My only fear is that being one is as bad as Nazism at this point.

Part of it is perhaps me thinking that my life isn’t worth much. If I had to kill someone to preserve my friend’s safety, I just might. While I’m cis, I have a good number of trans friends, including an aromantic trans friend that might be interested in being my queerplatonic partner. I want them to be safe and to be happy, they deserve so much better than what they have. But as far as defending myself? Even if I got a gun (I like them, I might) I don’t think I could use it in violence. I’m sorry, I just don’t want to be a bad person. I’ve already committed evil actions, but every day I need to try and become better, and atone.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Is it possible for me to be a good person as a cis white male that doesn’t want to use violence?

Of course you can be a non-violent cis-white-male and do good. Please, be a non-violent cis-white-male and do good. Just act.

One thing to keep in mind in all of this is that we don’t all have to follow the same strategy, or even agree with the strategies being used. We aren’t a single coherent group with a unified policy, we’re just a bunch’a weiners tryin’ to do what’s right.

Go to a protest and bring a bunch of water for people. Circulate news. Provide moral support. And any time you hear someone lending support to the fascists by parroting their “both sides” nonsense, counter it.

We’ve got a far better chance of success if not everyone fights, in my opinion. Multiple approaches, multiple paths to victory. You can talk to those who can be convinced that maybe perhaps fascism’s a bad thing; those more inclined to confrontation can take care of the marching fascists.

Don’t feel guilty about it either. Do what you can. War’s won as much by the farmer as the fighter.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@FrickleFrackle, it is brave to dedicate yourself to gentleness when the world is harsh. Don’t forget that.

You can be gentle and still contribute to good things. I like to think that it’s vital.

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
3 years ago

An article that reiterates what Black Bloc said:

Why the Media Refuses to Understand Antifa by Malcolm Harris

@Frickle Frackle What Scildfreja said. Really. <3

AsAboveSoBelow
AsAboveSoBelow
3 years ago

What would have worked better would have been a functioning authority. Had I not been scolded by authorities for going to them, had I not been subject to retaliation by the bully’s network for reporting them, had the school officials given a single flying fuck about assault and battery in the hallways, it wouldn’t have been necessary.

Oh, God, yes. First, I’d be told by administrators that I needed to stand up for myself, and then I’d be in trouble for popping a bully in the mouth after she’d bruised me and threatened my life. I mean, WTF?

Just so, our system is broken.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
3 years ago

…I don’t feel qualified, at this point, to speak on the more serious topics popping up in this thread.

So I’ll just mention that on the topic of “life does not necessarily need oxygen,” I’m just gonna bring up the Pikmin series, in which the protagonists of the first few games were of a species that would literally fucking DIE in an atmosphere with roughly 23% oxygen (spoiler alert: Earth about ten million years in the future). (The third game has a different species who can stand some amount of oxygen, but it’s an irritant.)

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Just throwing some more evidence into the pile that police are on the side of fascism and anyone who thinks they’ll protect citizens from white supremacist violence is kidding themselves. Also evidence that being white and middle class will not protect you from fascism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQ1-LQOkns&feature=youtu.be

A cop demands a nurse draw blood from an unconscious patient who is suspected of DUI even though he doesn’t have a warrant and being unconscious, didn’t consent. She refuses as it would be a violation of the patient’s right and she legally can’t even do it. Cop brutalizes and arrests her.

This is beyond fucked up but it doesn’t surprise me in the least.

Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
3 years ago

@BlackBloc

Do you mind if i share your comment on Twitter? I think it explains things very well.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Yeah, we still have cops saying shit like, “we only kill black people” during traffic stops. At least some of this stuff is being caught on camera and recorded now, so some of the bad cops eventually get taken off the streets.

Then of course people argue “he was joking”… People, he had a gun, and authority to arrest. Not the time for such a dark “joke”.

The Nurse assault… Looks like he thought he had approval of supervisor, and partner, for that “arrest”. Hopefully they all get in deep trouble for that, but not holding my breath.

Trump also says “donating $1M to Harvey relief”, and some people believed him. Not until the check clears will I believe that.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
3 years ago

@Makroth: you may. My Twitter is @XBlackBlocX, you might find more stuff to RT.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
3 years ago

BTW, the vast majority of the work of antifa, or the sort of affinity groups that form black blocs at demos, is done by street medics and court supporters (whether lawyers/law undergrads or just the logistics of organizing court support, like keeping track of arrestees and injured, getting in touch with their contact people, getting them food and water after coming out of jail, etc). So even if you are 100% pacifist there is plenty of work that can be done as support for people who are willing to put their bodies on the line to protect people.

However, i would caution that cops and nazis don’t tend to respect the fact you’re a non-combatant (for instance, the cops threatened violence against the street medics that tried to help Heather and the other victims of the Charlottesville car attack), and in my opinion being unwilling to even act in self-defense is taking an unacceptable risk to your own safety. But you’re the best judge of your own capabilities.

Jessica
Jessica
3 years ago

I feel like siding with Antifa against the Nazis is like siding with Russia in WW1. Like yeah, we may have the same enemies, but the enemy of my enemy shouldn’t necessarily be my friend

TreePerson
TreePerson
3 years ago

@BlackBloc
Another way to help is by becoming a legal observer thats what my mother did,
there job is not to participate in the protest but to observe police conduct at protests and report it to a legal organization (my mother works with the “national lawyers guild”),
you can spot them at protests by the lime green hats they wear to mark themselves.

Legal observers are one of the ways groups like the SPLC know what charges to file.

@Jessica
Since antifa is not an organization but a word denoting opposition to fascism it would be more accurate to say antifa are the allied powers,
not sure who the Russians would be in this analogy though.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@Left Wing Fox

What would have worked better would have been a functioning authority. Had I not been scolded by authorities for going to them, had I not been subject to retaliation by the bully’s network for reporting them, had the school officials given a single flying fuck about assault and battery in the hallways, it wouldn’t have been necessary.

But it was.

This is also a key point that a lot of the Antifa tut-tutters are missing. The Alt-Right’s mainstream prominence should have been halted at Gamergate after the sewer that is 4chan started receiving more scrutiny. But with the media constantly chattering about Trump, the deplorables hitched their wagon to him and rode him to a prominence the mainstream press were all to eager to cover. But we all knew who these people were; we’d been putting up with Pepes for years. *sigh* But the dopes in the press being the dopes they are didn’t talk to any of us, did they? No, for them, Richard Spencer with this new flashy fashy guy, treating him like a puppy to pet and do tricks for the camera. It was bad enough Trump made it through the primary, but when he did, it fell to the American public to show the world that America didn’t tolerate that kind of cruel bigotry.

And it failed. Miserably. Through a combination of voter apathy, voter suppression, misinformation, gerrymandering, James Comey and missteps on the part of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump gave these guys the figurehead they were waiting for.

There’s just a multitude of failures following in sequence that have lead to the need for Antifa. At any point along the way, it could have been stopped, but it wasn’t and the press has a large hand in that, so it’s rather rich for them to start having fainting spells about political violence when their incompetence is to blame for it.

TheKND
TheKND
3 years ago

@FrickleFrackle
During the Crimean war, a woman named Florence Nightingale volunteered to train and take 38 women to the conflict zone to work as nurses. These days, some sources suggest that she and her corps cut the rate of death in half (some even say from 42% to 2%).
That’s what you can do. Just help. If you can’t punch the Nazi, band-aid the guy who got hurt by the Nazi and if you can’t see blood, hand out snacks.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

WWTH,

Omg, that is revolting. Just revolting.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

a woman named Florence Nightingale

And I’ll stick my dashiki on and just chip in with Mary Seacole. 🙂

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Seacole

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@JS

Trump also says “donating $1M to Harvey relief”, and some people believed him. Not until the check clears will I believe that.

Hah. I’ll bet it will be from his charitable foundation and therefore will be largely other people’s money, even if it is forthcoming, which I doubt.

(now I think about it, hasn’t he been indirectly in receipt of about that much in taxpayers money, given the rent and bills that the secret service have to pay in order to do their job protecting him?)

Citizen Rat
Citizen Rat
3 years ago

Woke up to Twitter talking about The Daily Show’s take on Antifa. “ISIS for Vegans”, “correct pronounciation is a tool of oppression”, REALLY?!? Are they hiring writers from 4Chan?

It shouldn’t surprise me that the same channel that puts out South Park, the Messiah of Smug Centrism, would have something like that to say about Antifa. Still, it’s enraging.

The only glimmer of joy was that I got a new word from one of my favorite RPG writers in their reply to The Daily Show: “sheetcaker”.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Daily Show went a bit downhill after Jon Stewart left.

Bobbie LobBomb
Bobbie LobBomb
3 years ago

Anyone know good places to hav good faith questions answered in good faith and non condescendingly about Antifa, Black Bloc, and anarchism?

John Halaway
John Halaway
3 years ago

So I’m over at “the cut” reading about evil men having rights is a drug or some such nonsense and one of the links takes me to this site. This site is bizarre. The comments in this article claim the anyone who voted for Trump is a fascist, all conservatives are fascists, even democrats are fascists and it’s your duty to violently attack fascists. Also, if you aren’t into the whole violence thing you should give aid and comfort to those people violently attacking people. This site has to be a joke that is meant to rattle cages.

Citizen Rat
Citizen Rat
3 years ago

I gave Trevor Noah a chance because:

a) I’ve seen his standup and on average he’s funny.
b) As a mixed-race man who grew up in apartheid South Africa, I figured he could bring a lot of insight into the show.
c) Honestly, he has a disarming smile.

This was the last straw.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

On a lighter note,

http://dlisted.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tunashamed.jpg

I think this human’s cat was displeased with the quality or quantity of the tuna they served and forced them to get this shaming bumper sticker.

comment image

Hambeast, disorderly she-tornado and breaker of windows
Hambeast, disorderly she-tornado and breaker of windows
3 years ago

For whatever it’s worth, I dashed off a short note to Nancy Pelosi telling her how disappointed I was with her statement about antifa.

I’m dealing with more health issues with Catbeast atm plus, I now have a ‘long distance’ kitten who will live with my friend (from whom I got Catbeast) until the old man goes to kitty heaven. I have to get to where she lives so we can get him vaccinated and neutered (she can’t afford to do it herself) next week, so I’ll be driving down for that (Yay SoCal freeways.)

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
3 years ago

Alright. Some general thoughts, not directed at anyone in particular.

1. Non-violence, as employed by MLK, Jr. N’Em under the advisement of Rustin during the Civil Rights Era, was a TACTIC in CRE strategy, not a PHILOSOPHY.
Non-violence as employed during the CRE was, in essence, an act of sheer fucking desperation.

2. CHILDREN were very often on the front lines during the CRE. Putting KIDS in harm’s way is what people do when they’re out of options. It is a violation of our instincts and biological wiring. Giving your 8-year-old son a rifle and telling him to shoot if the Klansmen circling your house on horseback with guns and torches come up the porch is A LAST RESORT. Because you know these bastards won’t spare the life of a child. Just ask my dad.

3. If you haven’t already please acquaint yourself with the terms “social capital” and “epistemological violence.”

4. Finally…the man who folks looooooooove to invoke when telling POC how to resist, our gentlest and most beloved leader, was rewarded for his unrelenting, shining humanity with an assassin’s bullet. In his face. If you absolutely MUST invoke him, please do so with intelligence, restraint, and reverence. And please don’t do it to excuse your own discomfort.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

I hope it’s ok to jump in. I’ve not read upthread, so apologies if this is wildly irrelevant.

I’ve spent the last year dog walking. Some of the dogs have been puppies not in control of their nonsense, and I’ve had bruises as a result. The puppies haven’t meant it, and I haven’t taken it amiss.

As I read about Antifa (which is an abbreviation I really resent, because surely we all are), my view starts to change. About three years ago, I was on an anti-austerity march where fellow marchers were chanting at the police keeping us safe/contained “you’ll be next and you know it, you’ll be next”, which I felt was true but not helpful. Five minutes later the black bloc invaded and I stopped feeling safe, and was hugely grateful for the police.

But now I’ve been savaged by puppies (whole bits of my arm is green, and I’m not actually a Martian), maybe I feel differently about standing up to Nazis. If I can be covered with bruises by a well-meaning puppy, maybe it’s time for me to get in a Nazi’s face. And, as a white middle class woman in her 40’s, maybe I should be using my privilege (ie coppers don’t like to see my bruises) and ability to be bruised. I don’t know, but it’s a thought.

PaganReader - Misandrist Spinster

The dijon thing is more famous, but I do also remember the right getting mad at him for liking arugula salad. Apparently real Americans only eat iceberg lettuce slathered in ranch dressing and bacon bits or something.

And yet it’s liberals who are easily offended snowflakes.

In other Houston news, all school children will receive 3 free meals a day for the remainder of the school year.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
3 years ago

Ok, having read a little (certainly not all) upthread, it’s important to understand the difference between non-violence and pacificism. Non-violence is a mass movement tactic. If a bunch of guys come on to your farm at 3am and start setting fire to your property and harming your family, you do whatever you can to waste their time so your family can get away. You don’t invoke pacifism. You slow them down, by any means.

When there’s 50 of you and you would otherwise be accused of being a riot, this is where non-violence is powerful.

I feel really crappy that, as a politics graduate, it took me until watching the film Selma to understand how politically and strategically savvy Dr King was. That’s what non-violence is. It’s using your opponents’ violence against them, to the point of putting yourself in the line. It isn’t anti-violence, because violence is part of the conversation, sadly. It’s using violence against those that perpetuate it. It really pisses them off.

OK this rant over.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Alan

And I’ll stick my dashiki on and just chip in with Mary Seacole

Aight, white homie. Chill. But, yeah, Seacole mention is appreciated 😛

@Fiqah
Everything you said. Yup. THAT 😀

Also

N’Em

Didn’t think that was spellable. I shall definitely be using this in future 😁

@Pagan

In other Houston news, all school children will receive 3 free meals a day for the remainder of the school year

Good on the school district! Here’s hoping this extends into next year and every year after

PaganReader - Misandrist Spinster

Here’s hoping this extends into next year and every year after

QFT.
I don’t have kids, but I would be happy to pay a bit more in taxes to have 3 free meals for all school kids in my area too. Even better if instead of more taxes, the funds were redirected from our obscenely bloated military budget.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Bobbie
Different antifa ‘chapters’ have facebook pages. Might try there

@Halaway

This site has to be a joke that is meant to rattle cages

We’re a riot

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@John Halaway
Ah we can dance if we want to,
we can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends don’t dance and if they don’t dance
Well they’re are no friends of mine

TheKND
TheKND
3 years ago

@John Halaway
Yes, that is exactly what we are saying. This is a terrorist group dedicated to hurting you and everyone you like. And their kittens! We are EEEEEVUL! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
And if you remove just a bit more nuance, you can see the whole world in white and white because black is already too complex.

Zephkiel
Zephkiel
3 years ago

@Weatherwax
As a tactic though – especially if you’re a group who might be painted as a mob or riot, double especially if you’re concerned about “optics” – non-violence needs to be absolute. You cannot raise a hand in self defense. The second you do, it’s more of the both sides crap. And you can’t just say “I don’t believe in violence so I’m going to stay home.”

Effective non-violent resistance to violent groups is basically showing up prepared to literally get your head kicked in. For those who can do that, more power to you.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

@John Halaway,

Are you not entertained?!?

SpukiKitty
SpukiKitty
3 years ago

Imaginary Petal
September 1, 2017 at 10:35 am

@SpukiKitty

One friendly suggestion. It’s not very nice to describe the quite serious disagreements between members of the community as bickering or fussing, and suggest that they should just stop doing it. The people who argue here tend to have strong feelings about what they’re arguing. You are implying that they could just drop their ideas and move on, as if they’re only arguing because they like to argue. This is more than a little condescending.

What you’re doing is explaining to others that they shouldn’t take their own feelings seriously, because you don’t find their feelings interesting.

It’s also a leap to assume that just because we’re all commenting on the same blog, we’re all on the “same side”. This is not a safe assumption. We can, and do, often disagree on very serious matters. Some/many of us appreciate an environment in which we can have heated and frank discussions about contentious issues.

If you don’t like the current discussion, you don’t have to participate in it. Personally, I’m staying out of this particular one. This doesn’t mean you have to abandon the blog forever. You can just stick to commenting on other posts. You can even stay on this post and comment about something different.

When people argue about things that are very important to them, it’s to be expected that the tone won’t always be perfectly friendly. (In my view, a much bigger problem occurs if people adopt a pissy tone when not engaged in contentious discussion. That’s just bad form and creates a toxic environment.)

Okay. You have a point. We all have to speak our piece and get stuff off our chest.

If a thread’s too tense for me, I won’t take part.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

So I’m over at “the cut” reading about evil men having rights is a drug or some such nonsense

I’m trying to parse this statement and it’s not working. I figured out that The Cut must’ve featured a post criticizing MRAs and John made the assumption that anyone criticizing the MRM must think that men are evil, but what does the drug bit mean?

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

I learn so much here! Thank you all. @Still Fiqah especially. I’ve always felt leery and bad whenever some white person invokes the name of Dr King to make a point, as if using him like a tool to do a thing. Always felt painfully disrespectful to a man who worked so hard for justice. You make it more clear, thank you.

@John Halaway, from how you write, it seems pretty clear that you had decided that we’re wrong about everything before you even got here, so I’m not sure why you’re commenting. What would you like from us?

EDIT> Oh, and thank you for showing me The Cut! Looks good.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

Zephkiel says:

As a tactic though – especially if you’re a group who might be painted as a mob or riot, double especially if you’re concerned about “optics” – non-violence needs to be absolute. You cannot raise a hand in self defense. The second you do, it’s more of the both sides crap.

Bothsidesism doesn’t wait for actual violence to portray a group as a mob or riot, though. If you’re trying to send a message via non-violence, it doesn’t matter how absolute you are if it’s never seen. The more important thing optics-wise is to have your own people there to document what you’re doing and to be as thorough as possible in that. Of course, even then, you’re not going to have enough of a platform to effectively subvert the lying narrative that the media will cook up. But it’s more than the big fat nothing you get by hoping the media will portray you accurately.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@ChimericMind
Honestly, you’re talking like a damn fool here, and I haven’t got much patience to unpack this shit, but here goes.

And pairing that attitude of required rage with one where everyone not taking part in it is automatically an enemy

Nobody’s saying everyone needs to punch nazis; we can’t and shouldn’t all be street fighters. However when you tut tut about keeping the moral high ground, violence is bad, antifa are evil violent thugs just like Proud Boys, you’re taking the side of nazis and Klansmen. That’s all there is to it. You don’t have to mask up and roll out, but the literal least you can do is vocally support the folks who do instead of condemning them.

And for those wondering what I’m talking about, I’ll set up the logical set that I’m seeing:

You need a remedial logic course, old bean.

@Rugbyyogi

Errrr… wow – instead of asking me where my line is, please tell me instead where MY violent action – or perhaps yours, might make a positive difference in any of these cases?

Because when nazis get the shit beat out of them, they go home instead of roaming the streets looking for victims. As someone who’s a member of one of their speficially targeted groups, I call that a fucking win.

When society descends into constant violence, then it’s the poor, the powerless, the weak and the meek who suffer the most. That’s not a vision I care to endorse.

Yeah, we’re suffering plenty already, thank you. We’d like to not have suffering turn to dying faster than it is, though, which is why we don’t like nazis organizing to kill us.

@nparker

I’m getting the impression that some people here, if they had been around at the time, would have been giving white feathers to conscientious objectors in the war. It isn’t a nice vibe.

Fuck you. Shaming people for not supporting fighting literal fascists in their own country is not even the same sport as shaming people for not participating in a pointless imperial war, let alone the same ballpark.

@BlackBloc, Still Fiqah
Seconding everything you said.

@FrickleFrackle

Is it possible for me to be a good person as a cis white male that doesn’t want to use violence?

Sure. Just keep in mind what side you’re on, like.

@Scildfreja

Don’t feel guilty about it either. Do what you can. War’s won as much by the farmer as the fighter.

Far more so. Logistical support is basically the difference between forces that win regularly and ones that lose a whole lot.

@Bobbie LobBomb
I can recommend you some reading if you’re interested. (Read the fucking bread book!*) There’s a ton of Leftbook groups around, but unfortunately the non-condescending part can be hard to find. I got into this stuff in the ancient pre-social media days, so I dunno offhand about intro stuff. Ask around at Purple and Black Anarchists, they’ve a pretty good community. Or Red and Black or Pink and Black, they’re all allied.

*The Conquest of Bread by Pyotr Kropotkin; I strongly recommend it.
@Weatherwax

, because surely we all are

We, the mammotheers, perhaps, but we, white America is a different matter. Which is exactly the problem.

When there’s 50 of you and you would otherwise be accused of being a riot, this is where non-violence is powerful.

When there’s 50 of you and you’re not white, it’s gonna be called a riot no matter what you do. For us white folks, the cutoff is about 150 for lefties, unlimited for anyone else.

@Zephkiel

As a tactic though – especially if you’re a group who might be painted as a mob or riot, double especially if you’re concerned about “optics”

Thing is though, the purpose of beating nazis isn’t to convince the public that nazis are bad, it’s to convince nazis that naziing around in public is bad for their health and they should crawl back under the rocks they came from.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

WWTH,

I believe John Halaway is talking about David’s recent article in The Cut about the link between MRA’s and White Nationalism.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

Some unfortunate ableist language aside, this is an excellent summary of the situation. Also CN for mentions of bigoted violence.
Pullouts:

Even during the war, even during the death camps, it’s hard to say how many Germans actually knew how bad things were, what was going on…For a myriad of reasons, most people just don’t jump headfirst into oceans of blood, even the really bad ones. They generally need to dip their toes, a bit. Almost no one, in the grand scheme, joined the Nazi party thinking “I want to gas Jews.”

Since the war, Western culture has in part dealt with the world historic trauma it suffered culturally by a constant, therapeutic, necessary stream of art and documentation of the Reich’s crimes against humankind…The flooding of the culture with the history of what is likely the worst tragedy in world history has been comprehensive and impossible to ignore.

And that’s what attracted today’s Nazis. Understand that…Every single contemporary Nazi was attracted to Nazism cognizant of of its worst crimes. Not in spite of those crimes, and generally because of them. They saw the video, they read the history, and they thought “That’s sounds great, sign me up.” Even the ones who deny the holocaust like it. They revel in the imagery of the Holocaust. That’s what they’re in it for. The Holocaust isn’t a bug for them, it’s a feature.

They don’t divorce themselves from the history of the name. It wouldn’t be hard. It’s certainly possible to advocate racist positions without appropriating Nazi or fascist specific iconography or ideas. Some on the alt-right even try. But, eventually, they slip up and out pops a seig heil or a “blood and soil”. They want the history. They celebrate that history.

There are no cool Nazis. Even the occasional well appointed, moderately thoughtful front man like Spencer, or the poor, dumb teenager who’s going to realize what a big mistake he’s made six months from now, is going to be toting a bunch of shithead losers behind him, every fucking time. No one who isn’t a Nazi, who has experienced a group of Nazis, wants to hang out with Nazis again. They are nasty, ambulatory garbage with stupid haircuts. I’m not talking about politics. I’m talking about the real world that people actually live in. They destroy business for bars they begin frequenting. People start avoiding any place they show up because there’s always some fucking horrible shit going on. Someone getting picked on, someone getting beat up, someone almost getting beat up, racial slurs, women being sexually abused, bartenders threatened, everyone threatened, I shouldn’t need to go through this list. I don’t know why I’m going through it.

They will make an entire working class neighborhood a fucking pain in the ass for as long as they’re tolerated. They’ll harass businesses, mess with neighbors, and just make everyone’s fucking life shitty as long and as much as they can until they wind up doing something so dumb and shitty they wind up going to prison. A good deal of the time, that’s murdering someone. I haven’t even mentioned the special attention people of color get, of course. Or gay people. Or trans-people. Or, God forbid, they decide anyone even looks Jewish. Do I really have to? They will do whatever they can to make any member of a vulnerable group feel constantly threatened, at the very least. At the most, well, you read the papers.

I’m sure a lot of this may be hard for wealthy Hollywood stars to relate to, or some of my less vulnerable, whiter, straighter, more insulated friends. If you haven’t been forced to be around these people in a real world environment, it’s probably hard to wrap your head around just how fucking odious these pricks are in person, but it’s not a fucking joke. It’s not a game. And it’s NOT FUCKING POLITICS. They are, wherever they appear openly, a clear, present threat to anyone in their vicinity, anyone they can get in a vulnerable position. Anyone they can get their hands on.

The point is that, past the immediate function of antifa actually defending other, more peaceful, protestors (which is almost all they generally wind up doing. Just ask Cornell West and the line of clergy that were attacked during the battle of Charlottesville), probably the most important function the antifa strategy serves is to signal to the worst of the protestors on the right, the true fascists, that their presence will SIMPLY NOT BE TOLERATED IN THE COMMUNITY.

That there is an active, hostile presence in the the area, willing to put their bodies and liberty on the line, in order to protect themselves and the community, particularly the most vulnerable. To STOP them before they get a foothold, to fucking hurt them badly enough that they won’t come back the next weekend to fuck up a show, or bust up a bar, or beat up a fucking trans kid, or knife someone, or shoot someone. Or shoot a bunch of people. Or drag some poor old black janitor behind a car till he dies.

(((Podkayne Lives)))
(((Podkayne Lives)))
3 years ago

I have very mixed feelings. I feel like a lot of people are jumping on an antifa bandwagon–the bandwagon here not being opposing fascism, or punching Nazis, but making heroes out of an amorphous group of loosely defined people whose track record is frankly much less impressive than that of the SPLC. And then we have a lot of people making those same people into ‘domestic terrorists’ and a bigger danger than the fucking Klan.

And of course, everyone wants me to take their narrative seriously, and gets really pissy when I don’t.

JOY.

Dunno.That’s where I am.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Thanks for the info and links, esp @BlackBloc. I have some reading to do!

@BritterSweet – Thanks, that looks interesting (re misogyny in Big Bang Theory). I marked it to finish watching later. …I remember how one episode of the show had Sheldon being misogynist for no reason. He kept saying to his new assistant Alex (a woman) that women are bad workers because they’re always distracted by their sex drives. Thing is, his character should know enough basic biology not to say such a stupid thing! And why have him bully his employee? He’s supposed to be annoying but sympathetic.

-Tangentially, a bit surprised at the narrator saying the male cast aren’t “conventionally attractive”… aren’t they? …I might be of the opinion that Kunal Nayyar is dazzlingly beautiful, so I’m biased. 🙂

Grr, why am I talking about the non-important stuff? Oh right, because women are distracted by their sex drives. Explains everything! /s

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
3 years ago

@Dalilama: It’s clear you don’t have the patience to unpack your own shit, because you don’t seem to read it after you type it, nor do you read what your critics say before you begin seeing red (which is the only time you see color– the rest of the time it’s black and white because grey is a FASCIST PLOT). You didn’t respond to why my syllogism was an incorrect summary of your views, you just dismissed it, possibly because you don’t want to spend any time examining the contradictions in your own philosophy when you could be going ON THE OFFENSE. At least, I hope to god that your views really are just incoherent rage, because if they ARE coherent rage, then I genuinely expect you to start setting firebombs or, hopefully just remaining a keyboard crusader that alienates everyone eventually for being insufficiently pure.

And so you know, this is not me arguing that violence doesn’t have a fully justifiable place, especially as a warding of greater violence or protection from imminent harm. This is not me arguing that the system, including parts of the Democratic and Green Parties, aren’t irrevocably stained with racism. This is not me arguing that the actions of the Antifa aren’t fully justified, nor that those they oppose haven’t already done everything Antifa gets accused of thousands of times over, and would do it in the future. I’m on board with all these views, and have to argue them regularly with people whose white privilege allows them to pretend that “Nazis and KKK only existed in the Before Times, they’re not really real anymore”. This is me being genuinely scared that you’ve gone to a dark, dark place that I can’t accurately describe without violating the comments policy. It’s not the group that you’re part of– it’s that you seem intent on pulling that group from justifiable defense into Valerie Solanas territory. You’re making trolls like Halaway actually sound like they might have half a point, and fuck you very much for that.

Now, you can try to explain carefully how you’re NOT going where I’ve said you are, and can settle this thing down, great. If you double down and go even further down that path, I’ll be holding you partly responsible for helping get my trans foster brother killed.

Prophet309
Prophet309
3 years ago

@ChimericMind

I think you either need to take back that comment about your foster brother, or provide a heck of a lot more detail regarding how Dali’s ideas could/did get him killed.

There are other things I wanted to say, too, but I can’t think of how to say them right now.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
3 years ago

Alright. Last bit from me cuz this…holy balls.

@Scildfreja: I’m so glad I helped. Now next time some fucknugget does that “CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTUUUUHHRRR!!!!1!!!1!!!” crap you have an arsenal of retorts. Yay, learning, right?

@Axecalibur: Phonetically-spelled AAVE for the win!

@Dalillama @Black Bloc I know truth-to-power when I see it. Thank you for it.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion – not for the first time – that this is a fire/fire drill debate that’s happening. Say my country’s a burning building. Some of us are on fire. Some of us are choking on smoke. Some of us are carrying out folks who’ve passed out from smoke inhalation. Some of us are fighting the fire and screaming at EVERYONE to get outta the damn building. Some of us didn’t make it.

Aaaaaaand some of us are telling everybody to calm down, relax, and stop shouting, because it is JUST a drill.