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AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

Damn those AntiFa!

By David Futrelle

Seems like only yesterday that everyone to the left of Donald Trump was mad at the Nazis. Now for some reasons a lot of these same people are yelling about AntiFa. Nancy Pelosi has officially denounced AntiFa, and a piece in the generally liberalish Washington Post today declared that AntiFa are the “moral equivalent” of the literal Nazis they oppose.

Now I’m not exactly the most militant dude in the world but WHAT IN HOLY CRAP IS GOING ON. We are up against LITERAL NAZIS. One of them LITERALLY MURDERED A WOMAN with a car, and then the rest of them LAUGHED ABOUT IT and SAID IT WAS JUSTIFIED. They go to every so-called “free speech” rally they organize with the intent of doing bodily harm to as many people as possible. and unless we stop them it’s only a matter of time before they kill more people. So fuck this shit. Hug an AntiFa today.

On to the tweets. First, the dumb shit.

Now, some rebuttals. First, a good short thread on how the discussion has shifted from ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS to endless hand-wringing about antifas.

And here’s a response to the Washington Post thing by a Mother Jones journalist who was there at Berkeley.

https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/902969494808625152

Some historical perspective:

More AntiFa stuff:

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/902790386619318272

https://twitter.com/daniecal/status/902542063543009280

I defended the honor of George Orwell against an Alex Jones employee.

Snopes also has a thing to say about the attempts to portray the fascists and AntiFa as somehow equivalent:

AntiFa may have dealt with a lot of undeserved shit today, but happily our dear leader Donald Trump was also dealing with some richly deserved shit.

https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/903027267940491264

Meanwhile, the creator of Pepe is taking the Pepe Nazis to court and winning:

https://twitter.com/MaxTemkin/status/902700195577823232

And here are some animals!

https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/902839313276252160

https://twitter.com/CuteEmergency/status/902748977531162625

https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/903024790675611648

https://twitter.com/lordflaconegro/status/902687000544911362

 

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Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
3 years ago

@Jenora

So…I followed the Wikipedia link. Now I have five other Wikipedia pages up.

Aaaaand not all of them are making me optimistic about things…The lot of a compulsive wiki-walker.

ETA: I also found an article about the Cincinnati subway system, which was abandoned. I didn’t know that this was abandoned nearly ninety years ago, though–I just knew about it from a dude doing traffic stuff in Cincy that told me and my mom about things when we were about to go to a production of Porgy and Bess.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ jenora

but you can detect its effect from light-years away.

I love all the history behind Jim Lovelock’s Gaia theory. You probably know it started when they were looking at ways of detecting life on Mars, then realised they weren’t sure how you’d detect it on Earth.

I’m looking forward to the next generation of telescopes that should be able to check spectral absorption lines of extra solar planets. I’d also like to see some sort of DNA trawl of Europa and Enceladus. And maybe those Antarctic lakes.

It’s the Arthur Clarke thing. Either we’re alone or we’re not. Either answer is staggering.

(Personally I suspect life is ubiquitous. But as for intelligent life I’m not so sure. Mixture of rare earth hypothesis and scepticism about the evolutionary advantage of intelligence. I’d vote for big teeth.)

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

Catching up with the thread, more posts to follow:
@WWTH

The Democratic party will just never learn, will it?

The Democratic party are a white supremacist organization and always have been. Not as virulently so as the Republicans, obviously, but that is nevertheless what they are.

This. I oppose violence that isn’t in self defense. The vast majority of progressives are the same way in my experience.

Violence towards fascists is automatically self defence. They represent an existential threat to any pretense of a free an open society and a physical threat to many members of it.

@Oogly

“maybe we should take the middle road. We remember the old days of bipartisanship, maybe if we condemn both side we’ll get all the peoples and finally go back to a bipartisan political culture”?

‘Bipartisan’ is another of those lovely words that actually means ‘white supremacist’. I don’t mean to sound like a broken record here, but seriously, the entire fucking edifice of U.S. society, economy and politics is not just riddled with but founded upon white supremacy. And people who don’t like white supremacy (this particularly goes for my fellow white people here) need to look that in the face and stop wringing hands about why ‘well-intentioned’ Democrats are so ineffectual and recognize that it’s because they don’t actually want to acheive anything that might change the white supremacist capitalist system. (Relevant article here
@Violet

I do agree, in principle, that violence is not the answer. At all. Ever

And you’re wrong. Sometimes, it’s the only possible answer, and staring genocide in the face is one of those times.

@Rugbyyogi

I hope we’re not there yet.

Where do you consider ‘there’? When it’s white people who’re being dragged out of their homes by stormtroopes (ICE raids, and the drug war come to that, if you’re not clear what I’m talking about)? When the armed marching Nazis succeed in burning down a synagogue? When black churches burn every week instead of every couple months? If they’d beaten DeAndre Harris to death, would that be enough for you? Where’s your fucking line?

@Spukikitty

That said: I JUST HAD A THOUGHT….What if Pelosi’s statement is “Fake News” and rumor-mongering meant to divide and conquer The Resistance? WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND!

What the entire fuck is this bullshit? Seriously.

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

I really don’t know what to do about it, guys. They’re legitimizing fascists with this “both sides” nonsense. That can’t stand. But I don’t know what to do about it.

The next step would appear to be burning them in effigy on the capitol lawn.

@LaurelG

The non-fascist pro-Trump

There is no such thing. Trump is a fascist, supporters of Trump support fascism, supporters of Trump are fascists. Full stop. The may not be Nazis as such, but it’s a distinction without a difference.

@History Nerd

AntiFa and the black bloc folks use bad tactics and violence is not the solution, yes

What’s your solution then, pal? How do you think people should respond to Nazis with torches marching on a synagogue. Please explain, in detail. Or better, don’t, just go use your perfect peaceful solution on the fascists. I’ll watch.

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
3 years ago

You know what…I’m done, with weathermen wannabes like Dalilama, this place just isn’t for me. I’m a social Democrat on a hardcore left site. It’s not you it’s me. I liked this place because I am a feminist and this was one of the few feminist blogs that I liked. But while I still like Dave, I just don’t feel the respect for some of the regular commentators that I’d need to to stay and participate. I can spend my time better on redistricting reform and activism in my home state.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Dali,

What solution do you suggest to “Democrats are (also) white supremacist”?

Sounds like you’re agreeing with the alt-reich, who’ve been saying the Democrats are the “party of the KKK” for quite some time now.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

This Handle is a Test says:

Unfortunately the Berkley rally in which a fascist (who was unarmed and part of groups that had peacefully assembled) was beaten beyond helplessness pretty much killed the antifa brand

The problem isn’t antifa or their “branding”; it’s that we, as a society, are too committed to caring about appearances over substance. We’ll give fascists permission to advance their agenda in public as long as they maintain a facade of civility. As long as we can pretend they’re just “voicing” their “opinions.”

But it doesn’t matter if fascists can occasionally show up unarmed and avoid actively assaulting anyone for a few hours. Fascism is an inherently violent ideology with an eliminationist endgame. Fascists cannot ever “peacefully assemble” because their activism is always in the service of murderous goals. Their moments of restraint are calculated to get others to let their guard down, nothing else.

The more we—the media, politicians or public—fail to realize this and hesitate in getting rid of fascists by less violent means, the more we set ourselves up to need pushback by antifa, who don’t lose sight of where things are headed the second a wolf tosses on a sheepskin.

As for “branding”—how the fuck is any grassroots activist group supposed to control their own public image? The media works to protect the kyriarchy by controlling the public image of anyone who might challenge it. It doesn’t matter what groups like antifa or BLM do or don’t do when there’s a very particular narrative to sell.

In his day, MLK Jr was vilified for provoking riots and other violence. Only time has vindicated him. Now he’s used as a weapon to discredit the activists of today. It’s our own damn fault if we fall for that or for the idea that the media is honest and trustworthy.

I have not been talking about both sidesism, but I am against preemptive violence

And that’s your problem right there. You think it’s possible for fascists to be non-violent just because they sometimes momentarily lay sticks and guns aside in favor of speeches and sign-waving. But, as I said above, their ideology is inherently violent and eliminationist. So the use of force against them is never pre-emptive.

Get that through your fucking head and then maybe you’ll have something worth saying.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Axe

If there’s any time for participation trophies, it’s when fighting nazis. And winning!

Yes and no. Thing is, very few of the people fighting the Nazis then were doing so out of any particular opposition to killing Jews, queers, Roma or disabled folks. They simply objected to German territorial acquisiton at the expense of other European powers. So I dunno how many points I actually feel like awarding them.

@Egret

Antifa never showed up downtown in SF,

That’s news to the SF Antifa folks I know, I tell you what.

However, the cops stood down and left the park entirely with no violence- a victory of sorts.

I’d count the cops leaving without brutalizing anyone as bordering on miraculous, frankly.
@This Handle

Unfortunately the Berkley rally in which a fascist (who was unarmed

You mean the guy who teargassed a couple counterprotesters and then fled back to his camera toting buddy? That ‘unarmed fascist’?

and part of groups that had peacefully assembled)

There is no such thing as a peaceful assembly of fascists. They are an active threat to the physical (and mental) safety of members of oppressed groups. A fascist march is an act of terrorism.

(the same way riots at a number of BLM protests killed the brand).

But of course this shows what kind of scum you actually are, and I haven’t much more energy to waste on you.

@Still Fiqah

I just…is this a White People Thing?

Yeah, it pretty much is. White people who aren’t actively white supremacists hate being reminded that passive participation in U.S. society (i.e. being ‘apolitical’, ‘centrist’, ‘bipartisan’ etc.) is in and of itself an act of white supremacy.
@Treeperson

agent provocateurs have been sited at a number of anti-police brutality rallies so it kinda goes:

Also this. Been going on since forever. (not always police; in the days before everyplace had a formal police system it was private agents, but nevertheless)
@Dan Hoan

I think nonviolence is an incredibly important and useful tactic during protests and movements.

@Ellesar

“aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler’s violence”.’

It wouldn’t have, though. Because the world didn’t actually give a shit about Jews. There’s a relevant quote from one of our American heros in the battle against white supremacy that applies equally well I think:
Kwame Ture had something to say on that topic which I think mi
“Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”
-Kwame Ture

@Zephkiel

So… Fuck the high horse. Get off it. Be as violent as the Nazis – it’s the only way to get them to go back into their holes. You’re going to get “both sides” bullshit anyway, so why not be as effective as possible in destroying the actual Nazis? If they know stepping out in their polo shirts and tiki torches is going to get them beaten to a pulp every time they do it, they’ll stop stepping outside. Look at how they’ve cried about facing the most minor consequences to their hateful actions – they’re cowards.

If it helps, think of it as pre-emptive self defence. If the Nazis win, they’ll have no compunction about killing you.

Quoted for extreme truth.

@ MrsObedMarsh

And I know that Nazis won’t come after a white woman like me unless she actively opposes them, but PoC are in danger just for existing. I wish more people understood that.

I assume you’re also cis, het, and abled, cos if not, you’re on their list along with the rest of us.

ETA:
@This Handle
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

JS says:

Sounds like you’re agreeing with the alt-reich, who’ve been saying the Democrats are the “party of the KKK” for quite some time now.

No, because when the Right say that, they mean that the Democrats are the ones aligned with activist racism and Republicans are not. Dali is saying nothing of the sort.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@JS

Sounds like you’re agreeing with the alt-reich, who’ve been saying the Democrats are the “party of the KKK” for quite some time now.

Oh for fuck’s sake. What part of ‘The political system of the U.S. is fundamentally white supremacist’ was fucking well unclear to you? Politics as usual=white supremacy as usual. The Democratic party advances subtly white supremacist policies, because that is the default for American policy making, and thus anyone not working towards radical (in the most literal sense) change is perpetuating a system of white supremacy. The Republican party, by contrast, advances openly white supremacist policies and actively embraces white supremacy. That’s why they’re worse, see?

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Test

I can spend my time better on redistricting reform and activism in my home state

Agreed

@Dali

They simply objected to German territorial acquisiton at the expense of other European powers. So I dunno how many points I actually feel like awarding them

Results. You (help) stop the Holocaust, I give you points. Now, they may lose points afterwards for shit they do when they come back home (and the mid-late 20th century was lousy with shit done by people who came back home), but, in my book, nazi fighting is one of those acts for which intent is damn near completely irrelevant. If you took Omaha Beach or you locked down the freeze peachers to a gazebo in Boston, I personally don’t much care why

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

‘Bipartisan’ is another of those lovely words that actually means ‘white supremacist’. I don’t mean to sound like a broken record here, but seriously, the entire fucking edifice of U.S. society, economy and politics is not just riddled with but founded upon white supremacy.

You don’t sound like a broken record, especially now of all times where our supposed “allies” have once again made it clear that they don’t give a fuck about us.

@Spukikitty

That said: I JUST HAD A THOUGHT….What if Pelosi’s statement is “Fake News” and rumor-mongering meant to divide and conquer The Resistance? WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND!

I don’t ask this to be a smartass, I’m asking from a place of curiosity and bewilderment; what are you even talking about? You had a thought that Nancy Pelosi’s bothsideism statement is propoganda meant to break down people who are against fascists? What am I supposed to make of that? That Pelosi is also a fascist? Please explain, I’m not even mad, just unable to understand what you’re saying.

@JS

Sounds like you’re agreeing with the alt-reich, who’ve been saying the Democrats are the “party of the KKK” for quite some time now.

The Nazis open outright bigotry. The Dems are keeping the status quo which is also intent on keeping subtle bigotry in place. Why would you type this sort of “gotcha” post?

@Test
I hope you do great in helping others. make of that what you will

JS
JS
3 years ago

[oh nevermind, just another dumb gotcha post, should get more sleep]

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
3 years ago

White fragility is when you finally start to realize your high horse was gifted to you by people of vile principles and you choose to ride it into the sunset rather than dismount.

numerobis
numerobis
3 years ago

OT hugs requested.

I saw a shack go up in flames across the street. Someone lives in it. Just as firefighters were packing up I was hopeful — no ambulance, that must mean he was at the men’s shelter tonight randomly (he sometimes is). Then the coroner drove up.

JS
JS
3 years ago

I don’t know how to solve this, and it’s made me really cranky. Sorry.

Jumping on people who aren’t even IN the alt-right, I’m terribly sorry.

Hugs to numerobis.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Noyd

White fragility is when you finally start to realize your high horse was gifted to you by people of vile principles and you choose to ride it into the sunset rather than dismount

Stealing that

@numerobis
comment image

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Numerobis
Many hugs

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@A. Noyd

White fragility is when you finally start to realize your high horse was gifted to you by people of vile principles and you choose to ride it into the sunset rather than dismount

Love this so much.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@A. Noyd

White fragility is when you finally start to realize your high horse was gifted to you by people of vile principles and you choose to ride it into the sunset rather than dismount

Perfect

@numerobis
http://i.imgur.com/9YiDB8A.gif
comment image
http://i.imgur.com/nocg62W.jpg

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
3 years ago

@numerobis Well, damn. 🙁 *virtual huuuuuuuuuuuuugs*

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
3 years ago

@numerobis

comment image

re: horse metaphor

I like it too, but then literal mind wonders what the horse is to do.

JS
JS
3 years ago

Oh, good, the WaPo piece was at least an “opinion” piece by a Republican former speechwriter, instead of journalism. Let’s get more of those false equivalencies going, Mr. Thiessen.

OT: Real journalists waded through water to get to work this week, saved lives… maybe stop talking about Clinton emails and DNC servers now, Hannity?

BritterSweet
3 years ago

Off topic, but this jut popped up in my youtube subscriptions. It’s Pop Culture Detective going over misogyny among “nerds” in media and especially The Big Bang.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
3 years ago

For what it’s worth, I’ve been arguing with friends and family on social media that violence, in the form of self-defense, isn’t inherently evil, and that the warning attacks made by Antifa against Neo-Nazis gearing up for brutalizing and killing the vulnerable unarmed is completely justified.

That said, I feel that enshrining violence as a sacred obligation is a terrifying extreme. Violence should be an option, not mandatory. And pairing that attitude of required rage with one where everyone not taking part in it is automatically an enemy…I’m worried that Dalilama is reaching that turning point of He Who Fights Monsters and all that. The only thing that keeps me from being more worried is telling myself that it’s just keyboard crusader spleen-venting. Then again, that’s what Very Serious People told us that 4chan amounted to a few years ago, so perhaps I should be worried that I’m going to see someone actually acting out the ridiculous strawman bullshit that we saw in those alt-right battered children posters a few days ago.

I thought it was against the Comments Policy to threaten other users, but perhaps since Dalilama has been here long enough, there’s some sort of earned immunity involved. And for those wondering what I’m talking about, I’ll set up the logical set that I’m seeing:

1. Violence against fascists and white supremacists is justified.
2. It is not merely justified, but there is a moral imperative to strike first, so as to save lives.
3. Democrats are white supremacists too.

Ergo: Firebomb the democrats.

There will be hedging about “No no, I mean only the PARTY. You know, Them. The big ones, who by virtue of their national presence, aren’t really deserving of human compassion anymore.” Which will be of strong comfort to those of us with friends and family involved in state politics with the Democratic Party. That’s why “This Handle” took off, and I wonder how many others have without an announced flounce.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Chimeric
There’s a difference between literal fuckin nazis and the Dem party. There’s a difference between fighting Proud Boys and firebombing Democratic headquarters. These things are not equivalent. They’re not in the same ballpark. They are not, or they should not be in any case, difficult to discern. We aren’t giving @Dali a pass on threatening users on the basis that she’s a regular. We’re not giving her a pass at all, cos that’s not what she did. More pertinently, please, if you have a problem with what she said, tell her you have a problem with what she said. This weird ‘I’m worried about your friend’ thing is pretty uncool, ya know? This ain’t an intervention. Oh, and try to refrain from assuming what people will do in response to your criticism. It’s unnecessarily antagonistic. Thanks

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

Unfortunately, Obama ruined the “black President” brand by asking for Dijon mustard once. 🙁

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

He also likes arugula. How uppity could he be?

The dijon thing is more famous, but I do also remember the right getting mad at him for liking arugula salad. Apparently real Americans only eat iceberg lettuce slathered in ranch dressing and bacon bits or something.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
3 years ago

Alan: life on earth is an insignificant amount of mass, but you can detect its effect from light-years away. Our atmosphere has a lot of oxygen, and the land surface is green — both those are because of life.

Life as such wouldn’t necessarily produce an oxygen atmosphere, but high O2 atmosphere is a strong indicator of thriving, photosynthetic life. It doesn’t necessarily indicate intelligent life, but is apparently a prerequisite for it, as brains require high energy metabolism that is only possible with oxygen.

If you land, and do some geology, you notice entire types of rocks that are only possible because of life. Coal, for instance; or chalk. And you see marks of life in sedimentary rocks everywhere.

You might also notice the organic soil matter and vegetation sitting on said rocks…

bluecat
bluecat
3 years ago

@talonknife

I don’t know why, but the teenage werewolves are what really put the icing on the cake in that story. TBH, I didn’t even know that subculture still existed.

Oh golly, is that a thing?

It’s just my label for them based on appearance – I’ve no idea if they self identify as such.

*spends morning when I should be marking googling pictures of teenage werewolves* Thank you for that.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
3 years ago

@dalillama

Where do you consider ‘there’? When it’s white people who’re being dragged out of their homes by stormtroopes (ICE raids, and the drug war come to that, if you’re not clear what I’m talking about)? When the armed marching Nazis succeed in burning down a synagogue? When black churches burn every week instead of every couple months? If they’d beaten DeAndre Harris to death, would that be enough for you? Where’s your fucking line?

Errrr… wow – instead of asking me where my line is, please tell me instead where MY violent action – or perhaps yours, might make a positive difference in any of these cases? If you haven’t done all you can in terms non-violent resistance (and I know I personally haven’t) then advocating violence appears to be to satisfy anger rather than to achieve peaceful progress and transfer of power. The defence of self-defence only applies with exigent circumstances for a reason, otherwise it’s just vigilantism, revenge and further provocation of violence and a descent to barbarity. By all means, enjoy your rage porn, but I’d rather keep working for the kind of society I’d like to live in rather than a fantasy of the violent left frankly not much different than MGTOW wet dreams.

When society descends into constant violence, then it’s the poor, the powerless, the weak and the meek who suffer the most. That’s not a vision I care to endorse.

nparker
nparker
3 years ago

I’m getting the impression that some people here, if they had been around at the time, would have been giving white feathers to conscientious objectors in the war. It isn’t a nice vibe.

Violence is something that is always a last resort, always. So no, there isn’t going to be a civil war. No, violence is not a good answer to any problem. No, there is no moral obligation here to get violent. To suggest there is automatically means telling the most vulnerable members of our society that being plunged into a state of constant violent conflict is absolutely fine and they shouldn’t be on a ‘high horse’ about it. I find that morally, just… ugh.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Just popping up and I haven’t read the thread, but I want to urge folks here to look up Clément Méric.

He was a French antifa who was killed in 2013. A lot of ink has been wasted on how he “assaulted” a nazi who acted in self-defense… with brass knuckles.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Arctic Ape

Life as such wouldn’t necessarily produce an oxygen atmosphere, but high O2 atmosphere is a strong indicator of thriving, photosynthetic life.

Well, maybe. Problem is with that sort of notion is that it relies heavily on our knowledge of a single world with photosynthetic life and high O2, and a few worlds with an atmosphere with neither of those, and a bunch of rocks without even at atmosphere to speak of. That’s not many datapoints to extrapolate from.

It isn’t yet clear that this is a good model of the rest of the universe, see also: Abiotic oxygen-dominated atmospheres on terrestrial habitable zone planets (and there are other papers on similar subjects; I can’t recommend one over another at this point) for alternative views.

Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
3 years ago

Off topic, hope this brightens everyone’s day… a little IN YOUR FACE, donald trump!!!

back on topic… ish…. (note, sarcasm to follow)

re: whose side are the dems on? The dems take take the lions share of the money and give it to the mega-wealthy… the rest they use to try to provide a minimal social safety net. The repubs take the lions share of the money and give it to the mega-wealthy… the rest they give to the mega-wealthy, too.

we are never going to achieve fundamental social change working through the democratic party, or through any other party. the power brokers simply are not going to let us vote them out of power.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ pie & arctic ape

Thanks for the link to that paper. I suppose a problem of life detection is that, even in a ‘steady state’ atmosphere, there’s nothing that can be exclusively consequential on biotic processes. Even methane I gather can result from geological activity. Maybe though there’s a combination of factors that can only arise from life? (Although does that beg the question of how we define ‘life’?)

On a related note, is there anything ‘optimal’ about how life is set up on Earth. By which I mean stuff like, are CGTA the ‘best’ base pairs, or might there be other chemicals that would do a better job? Is oxygen the best energy catalyst? Is Carbon the most useful base for protoplasm? Etc.

If earth life does represent the optimal solution then it might suggest abiogenesis is more ‘inevitable’ than if say, we’re a mash up of sub-optimal solutions that just happen to work.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

On a related note, is there anything ‘optimal’ about how life is set up on Earth. By which I mean stuff like, are CGTA the ‘best’ base pairs, or might there be other chemicals that would do a better job? Is oxygen the best energy catalyst? Is Carbon the most useful base for protoplasm? Etc.

Fluorine would give you more bang for your buck than oxygen, but it is much rarer in the universe, because it is harder to synthesize in stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oddo%E2%80%93Harkins_rule). Also, it’d produce some excitingly reactive biochemistries, which probably isn’t ideal. Alternatives to carbon do exist, but they seem to form compounds which are less chemically stable and they, too, are much less cosmically abundant. Clarke talked about “carbon chauvinism”, but it does seem like it is a pretty good basis for things.

CGTA (y’know, ATGC seems to be the most common abbreviation for the bases; where’d yours come from?) though… well, I’m much less sure. I suspect that most terrestrial biochemistry from RNA strands and proteins on upwards is probably in a local maximum of efficiency, and I don’t think there’s any particular reason why alternative structural and catalytic chemicals could be just as good, or even better.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

(“could” should have been “couldn’t” in that last paragraph)

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@Bobbie

We have to be smarter. I’m not opposed to Black Bloc, but if you’re willing to fight, you also have to have the wisdom to know when not to fight.

Agreed. If I have to give the alt-right any credit, their capacity to latch on to a single individual and caricature them to the point of internet-memedom is remarkable. Despicable, but remarkable.

By contrast, if I have one wish of the left, it would be to understand that their opposition, while they can be dangerous and even scary at times, are fundamentally ridiculous people. A guy following the Proud Boys around with a tuba might just be more effective at deflating them than a gathered crowd with signs. Just a thought.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ pie

CGTA (y’know, ATGC seems to be the most common abbreviation for the bases; where’d yours come from?)

Went something like this.

“It’s got a C in it. What else? That bit in Jurassic Park, in the book, with the question marks….Hmm, can’t remember…Oh what about that film with Jude Law?….No, not Jude Law, the other one……Ethan Hawk….Gattaca!, So that’s GTA…….Oh hang on, Jude Law is in it.”

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
3 years ago

It may not be appropriate to post this on such a serious thread, but when I saw “Every time you twist a nut” on that World War 2 era poster, I immediately thought of testicular torsion. It really does sound painful, and I don’t even have testes.

I’ll be visiting my mother and sister for Labor Day, those fascist sympathizers. I’m girding my loins for the weekend. Gonna bring my cat. I’m hoping my mommy doesn’t insist upon her sleeping on the enclosed porch.

littlem
littlem
3 years ago

Help –

I really wanted to click on Violet’s article here

And people who don’t like white supremacy (this particularly goes for my fellow white people here) need to look that in the face and stop wringing hands about why ‘well-intentioned’ Democrats are so ineffectual and recognize that it’s because they don’t actually want to achieve anything that might change the white supremacist capitalist system. (Relevant article here

but I’m not sure the link is working …

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

Not ignoring the rest of y’all but I need sleep.

SpukiKitty
SpukiKitty
3 years ago

Ooglyboggles
August 31, 2017 at 9:53 pm

@Spukikitty

That said: I JUST HAD A THOUGHT….What if Pelosi’s statement is “Fake News” and rumor-mongering meant to divide and conquer The Resistance? WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND!

I don’t ask this to be a smartass, I’m asking from a place of curiosity and bewilderment; what are you even talking about? You had a thought that Nancy Pelosi’s bothsideism statement is propoganda meant to break down people who are against fascists? What am I supposed to make of that? That Pelosi is also a fascist? Please explain, I’m not even mad, just unable to understand what you’re saying.

I meant the former; Propaganda meant to demoralize Progressives.

Yes; I’m aware that the Democratic Party is rather “Establishment” as well and Centrist in nature. However; They are the closest thing to a Progressive MAINSTREAM Party that the nation’s got and THEY can be reformed into something more Left-Leaning and revolutionary. There is currently a new crop of Progressive-thinking Democrats running for offices all over the country.

I’m aware that Pelosi is FAR from the ideal.

Also; What J.S. said….It was an OPINION piece by a GOPer….not news and the writer likely misrepresented what Pelosi actually meant.

FOR NOW; Rather than starting a Third Party (which takes time to become mainstream….time we DON’T have) we should fill the Democratic Party from the lowest local offices up with new GENUINELY PROGRESSIVE blood and change it from within.

********

In regards to the bickering, fussing and fighting, here, CAN’T YOU GUYS GET ALONG?!

Now; Some here are Moderate, Some are more Radical. Some see “America” as a salvageable thing while others are like “America = EVIL!”. Some are fine with the Democratic Party while others see it as “GOP-Lite”. And everyone here with differing takes on things are divided and arguing.

STOP! This is what makes Great Causes go belly-up! Find COMMON GROUND AND WORK TOGETHER, GUYS?!

********

As for this stuff about the “BLM/AntiFa/Occupy/etc. Brand”….THESE ARE NOT SET ORGANIZATIONS WITH A SET OF DESIGNATED LEADERS. These are disorganized grass-roots groups united in a common cause. However; There will be a few bad apples.

Perhaps there should be a list of “Rules of Conduct” or “What The Cause Is Not” and “What’s Not Permitted” or some very loose organizational structure….as well as spokespeople who can refute things when they’re misrepresented or a bad apple does a dumb thing.

Many were like “What does The Occupy Movement want?!”. There needs to be a list of demands and goals.

********

REMEMBER: WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER!

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
3 years ago

When society descends into constant violence,

Capitalism is constant violence. White supremacy is constant violence. Patriarchy is constant violence. We’re not “descending” into anything. We’re there. It’s just that “constant violence” is not equally distributed in society and is mostly invisibilized when performed by our institutions and dominant groups towards marginalized ones.

As for the idea that antifa is bringing preemptive violence, even if you don’t agree with the above principle, this betrays a complete lack of knowledge of how white supremacist rallies operate. Everywhere white supremacists assemble, when they are not confronted by an active counter-protest, they feel empowered. During and after the march the participants are still in the community, and attacks on marginalized groups spike. There were multiple reports of male sex workers being assaulted by fake “clients” just prior to the San Fran nazi march, for instance.

There’s nothing preemptive about antifa. When they are not around as a lightning rod for nazi violence, the nazis attack marginalized people. And when they are around, whether violence occurs is purely a matter of numbers and how emboldened the nazis get. In Boston, where the counterprotest overwhelmed the nazis, there was no violence. In Berkeley and Charlotteville, where the counterprotesters were outnumbered AND the police both encouraged and looked away from nazi violence, there was a need for self-defense from antifa… which was spun by the collaborator media into antifa violence towards peaceful nazis.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
3 years ago

Perhaps there should be a list of “Rules of Conduct” or “What The Cause Is Not” and “What’s Not Permitted” or some very loose organizational structure….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action#Points_of_Unity

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@SpukiKitty

As for this stuff about the “BLM/AntiFa/Occupy/etc.
Brand”….THESE ARE NOT SET ORGANIZATIONS WITH A SET OF DESIGNATED LEADERS.

I’m not sure that’s a fact that you can get across to the regressive right; they view the world through authoritarian eyes, and couldn’t imagine that there isn’t a hierarchy, or oligarchy, or clear insider/outsider demarcation.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
3 years ago

@SpukiKitty

One friendly suggestion. It’s not very nice to describe the quite serious disagreements between members of the community as bickering or fussing, and suggest that they should just stop doing it. The people who argue here tend to have strong feelings about what they’re arguing. You are implying that they could just drop their ideas and move on, as if they’re only arguing because they like to argue. This is more than a little condescending.

What you’re doing is explaining to others that they shouldn’t take their own feelings seriously, because you don’t find their feelings interesting.

It’s also a leap to assume that just because we’re all commenting on the same blog, we’re all on the “same side”. This is not a safe assumption. We can, and do, often disagree on very serious matters. Some/many of us appreciate an environment in which we can have heated and frank discussions about contentious issues.

If you don’t like the current discussion, you don’t have to participate in it. Personally, I’m staying out of this particular one. This doesn’t mean you have to abandon the blog forever. You can just stick to commenting on other posts. You can even stay on this post and comment about something different.

When people argue about things that are very important to them, it’s to be expected that the tone won’t always be perfectly friendly. (In my view, a much bigger problem occurs if people adopt a pissy tone when not engaged in contentious discussion. That’s just bad form and creates a toxic environment.)

FrickleFrackle
FrickleFrackle
3 years ago

Is it possible for me to be a good person as a cis white male that doesn’t want to use violence? Personally, I’m not going to fault other people who hurt Nazis and their ilk, but I’m uncomfortable at the thought of hurting people, even if someone wanted to hurt me I honestly think (and hope) that I’d let myself get hurt or killed.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@BlackBloc, that was really well put, thank you very much. Antifa isn’t generating violence, it’s just collecting it in one place where it can be decisively opposed. That’s a great way to put it, and a really powerful way to explain it to people who are all “both sides are bad”. It’s quick to say: “If Antifa wasn’t there, these tiki-torch terrorists would be dispersing through the community, beating up LGBT people and Muslims and destroying churches and mosques. Antifa’s just putting a willing target right in their faces.” And there’s piles of evidence for it.

It’s compact, evocative and flips the script – puts the onus right where it belongs again. I like it. Thank you.