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AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

Damn those AntiFa!

By David Futrelle

Seems like only yesterday that everyone to the left of Donald Trump was mad at the Nazis. Now for some reasons a lot of these same people are yelling about AntiFa. Nancy Pelosi has officially denounced AntiFa, and a piece in the generally liberalish Washington Post today declared that AntiFa are the “moral equivalent” of the literal Nazis they oppose.

Now I’m not exactly the most militant dude in the world but WHAT IN HOLY CRAP IS GOING ON. We are up against LITERAL NAZIS. One of them LITERALLY MURDERED A WOMAN with a car, and then the rest of them LAUGHED ABOUT IT and SAID IT WAS JUSTIFIED. They go to every so-called “free speech” rally they organize with the intent of doing bodily harm to as many people as possible. and unless we stop them it’s only a matter of time before they kill more people. So fuck this shit. Hug an AntiFa today.

On to the tweets. First, the dumb shit.

Now, some rebuttals. First, a good short thread on how the discussion has shifted from ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS to endless hand-wringing about antifas.

And here’s a response to the Washington Post thing by a Mother Jones journalist who was there at Berkeley.

https://twitter.com/shane_bauer/status/902969494808625152

Some historical perspective:

More AntiFa stuff:

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/902790386619318272

https://twitter.com/daniecal/status/902542063543009280

I defended the honor of George Orwell against an Alex Jones employee.

Snopes also has a thing to say about the attempts to portray the fascists and AntiFa as somehow equivalent:

AntiFa may have dealt with a lot of undeserved shit today, but happily our dear leader Donald Trump was also dealing with some richly deserved shit.

https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/903027267940491264

Meanwhile, the creator of Pepe is taking the Pepe Nazis to court and winning:

https://twitter.com/MaxTemkin/status/902700195577823232

And here are some animals!

https://twitter.com/awwcuteness/status/902839313276252160

https://twitter.com/CuteEmergency/status/902748977531162625

https://twitter.com/MeetAnimals/status/903024790675611648

https://twitter.com/lordflaconegro/status/902687000544911362

 

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Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
3 years ago

Semi OT: if you scroll down to the next story on that Daily Beast Cantwell story Alan linked, you’ll get a fascinating look inside Laura Ingrahman’s LifeZette news service, her answer to the Huffington Post news service.

Amongst other things, the dude running the day-to-day operations has no qualms about being a sexist bore in front of everyone, and the company itself seems to have taken a few pages from Trump on how to treat their subcontractors.

Interesting stuff, at least to me.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Laura Ingrahman’s LifeZette news service

She seemed a lot more chilled when she lived in that little house on the prairie.

Ben
Ben
3 years ago

The thing that boggles my mind about the claim that Antifa provokes violence from otherwise peaceable white supremacists is that it’s flatly contradicted by the evidence. Right-wing demonstrators at Charlottesville showed up with guns, clubs, and knives. One of their number drove a car into a group of people and killed one of them. There were many reports of them headed towards predominantly black neighborhoods before counter-protests headed them off. White supremacist violence was already happening—was probably always going to happen—and eyewitness accounts show that Antifa was saving lives by responding with violence, time and again. Even if Antifa didn’t show up and allowed a bunch of activists and clergy to get their skulls cracked in the name of “nonviolent protest,” white supremacists were ready to invent violence on the left to justify violence on the right. That’s how it’s always been, this isn’t news (except to centrist pundits with no historical memory, that is).

Of course, we live in a white supremacist society where the only meaningful distinction between ideological groups is whether or not they’re disruptive to the order of things, so Nazis and Antifa are really just the same (and actually Nazis are less threatening because they only target white people if the latter oppose them). I’m not sure what else I expected, but…

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
3 years ago

@Mish: Appropriation and giving ourselves pats on the back for damn near everything is an American tradition!

Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Alan
My desire to repeated punch the Nazi is outweighed by the satisfaction of seeing him suffer. Yes I know finding joy in others’ suffering is bad. No I don’t care because he’s a fucking Nazi who’d kill my “t****y” ass if he could get away with it.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Anyone know what is the total biomass on Earth? And what’s that as a percentage of the overall mass of the planet? I seem to recall some bit of trivia about most of the biomass is subsurface.

According to recent research that helped quantify the sub-sea-floor prokaryotic and bacterial biomass, the current estimate is 614 to 827 PgC, Petagrams of Carbon, with an average of 713. This is still really unsure, since it’s very hard to estimate ocean biomass. Wikipedia lists around 560 PgC, but leaves out bacteria and ocean floor biomass, which is still under debate. Taking the 713 as accurate, that’s 7×10^14 kg of biomass.

Earth is 6×10^24 kg in total. So, biomass accounts for 1/1×10^10 of Earth’s mass.

As for your specific “most of the biomass is subsurface”, that’s apparently based on old estimates of oceanic biomass? Which is in the process of being overturned. So, I don’t know what to make of it. Very active research going on at the moment!

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/40/16213.abstract

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
3 years ago

*pinches bridge of nose*

Alright. Can I just say that I’ve NEVER understood this. This hand-wringing, squirmy, whinging performative introspection that the left does, whenever the right invokes this falsely equivocal political landscape where suddenly we’re “just as bad” as their worst elements if we do X? HOW?

I just…is this a White People Thing? I’m seriously fucking asking. Because I have NEVER had this issue. Coretta Scott King told us famously what “violence” truly is. The judgment of Nazis and their sympathizers adds up to exactly jack dollars and shit cents. Stop, and get it together. There’s work to do.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Thing that gets me about the whole ‘who beat the nazis most’ stuff is that it doesn’t matter. There were literal nazis. And not like today nazis with sedans and torches (which can obviously be used to tragic effect 🙁). Tanks and flamethrowers, y’all! If there’s any time for participation trophies, it’s when fighting nazis. And winning! Hifives and celebratory pizza after. Team effort, good game! Dunking Gatorade and inspirational speeches. I’ve run outta cheesy sports metaphors, but point made. Everyone who fought the nazis (material/logistical support counts too), gets nazi fighting points. Quit arguing about who’re the best nazi fighters, it’s nonsense…

Egret
Egret
3 years ago

@BlackBloc

I was at the Berkeley rally -and the San Francisco one, for contrast- and I’m finding the whole situation somewhat difficult to parse, which I suspect is the actual reality of the thing. Antifa never showed up downtown in SF, and everything was nice and happy-go-lucky (which is not necessarily how an anti-nazi protest should go?).

In Berkeley, there were maybe 300 protesters already in the park when Antifa showed up in force. The cops put on their masks, formed their line, and the whole mood went from generally tense to extremely tense. However, the cops stood down and left the park entirely with no violence- a victory of sorts. Police militarization and oppression are real problems. But whose weren’t the only problems we were there to… um… discuss.

So all this hand-wringing a la Pelosi seems like a call for moral black-and-whites, which just isn’t possible. I abhor violence, but I’d have to use it in self-defense would I not? And when is that line crossed, that protesting nazis requires aggressive self-defense? I’m not crazy about Antifa but neither can I possibly condemn them. They seem to have positives and negatives. And thus far there’s more positives to their selective use of violence than negatives, I suspect.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ scilfreja

Cheers for that. So life is practically irrelevant in the planetary grand scheme of things. I’m glad it exists though, if only for selfish reasons.

“most of the biomass is subsurface”

I’d heard something about bacterial life in the 0 – 2 metre depth range. Which I found interesting because of the implications for life on Mars.

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
3 years ago

Unfortunately the Berkley rally in which a fascist (who was unarmed and part of groups that had peacefully assembled) was beaten beyond helplessness pretty much killed the antifa brand (the same way riots at a number of BLM protests killed the brand). If the Dem party did as you ask you might see them get knocked down to around 150 seats. I realize that doesn’t matter because it’s easier being pure than trying to get in government and actually do something, but it is what it is.

Though for what it’s worth, any reading of political science andhistory shows that when there is no agreement on the nature reality, civil ear is inevitable. As part of a political cult, the trumpers (including fascists) will never agree in the nature of reality so…

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
3 years ago

I’m fully expecting the category ‘premature anti-Fascist’ to be revived. There are already yowling hammerheads on Facebook complaining about the Communists behind Antifa.

Maybe the reason why we think of Nazis as more evil than the Soviets is because they were. That should not be a controversial position.

Bobbie Loblaw
Bobbie Loblaw
3 years ago

“I decline utterly to be impartial as between the fire brigade and the fire.” -Winston Churchill

Ben
Ben
3 years ago

Unfortunately the Berkley rally in which a fascist (who was unarmed and part of groups that had peacefully assembled) was beaten beyond helplessness pretty much killed the antifa brand (the same way riots at a number of BLM protests killed the brand). If the Dem party did as you ask you might see them get knocked down to around 150 seats. I realize that doesn’t matter because it’s easier being pure than trying to get in government and actually do something, but it is what it is.

Though for what it’s worth, any reading of political science andhistory shows that when there is no agreement on the nature reality, civil ear is inevitable. As part of a political cult, the trumpers (including fascists) will never agree in the nature of reality so…

Counterpoint: Obsession with “brands” to the detriment of principled stances on anything is what has led the Democratic Party to its current state of weakness and dissolution. The establishment didn’t take Trump seriously because they thought his personality and behavior compromised his brand too much to make him electable. Turns out, if you agree with someone on principle, for better or for worse, you’ll generally do whatever moral backflips are necessary to bring yourself around to voting for them. I’m not saying that Pelosi should be praising Antifa, but issuing virtually identical condemnations for Antifa and for Nazis does a great job of pushing the already-disaffected left further away from the party while failing to convince the rest of America that said party, as opponents of the GOP and Trump, don’t somehow bear responsibility for the existence and succor of one (or both).

Still, I also fear that some shade of civil war is inevitable. There is no example in history where fascism, a political ideology of violence and exclusion, has been defeated without resort to violence by its opponents. Even the Nazis in the punk scene had to be driven out by anti-racists and anti-fascists willing to start fights with them whenever they showed up, supported by vocal condemnation by musical artists and the broader community. Since we can’t exactly count on Trump, Sessions, and company to deploy the state’s monopoly of violence against hate speech and crimes, it’s probably going to be people on the street throwing those punches while we wait for the broader community of Americans to raise their voices. I don’t look forward to it.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

I just…is this a White People Thing? I’m seriously fucking asking. Because I have NEVER had this issue. Coretta Scott King told us famously what “violence” truly is. The judgment of Nazis and their sympathizers adds up to exactly jack dollars and shit cents. Stop, and get it together. There’s work to do.

Yeah, from my white person perspective, it’s a white people thing. Those Nazis look like us, so lots of white people have an itch to forgive them, since they look like our in-group. Double strong with white dudes, since there’s also the gender similarity, given the strong bias towards the Nazis being dudes.

They’re just trying to avoid introspection IMO. They don’t want to consider the possibility that – gasp – they themselves might have things better than other racial or ethnic groups, and that they might actually be a little bit racist. So they have that urge to forgive Nazis, cause gosh, they’re just mad about oppression! See, they’re oppressed too!

Seems like it’s a knee-jerk reaction that some people have anytime someone tries to widen the circle of “who do I have to treat as a human f’n being.” Minorities and the disenfranchized already have a big circle, while people don’t necessarily. Opening that circle gives them fewer targets to scapegoat, bringing the responsibility for failures home to roost. So yeah, privileged people trying to avoid taking responsibility.

I dunno though, I’m just rambling. Something in that above there feels a bit wrong on a second read, but Im’a post anyways. Please correct me!

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Fiqah

I just…is this a White People Thing?

Ayyyup. Neither Antifa nor Klan 3.0 are gonna fight them so long as they don’t make a scene, so they don’t hafta worry. Thus, to them, ‘both sides’ are similarly rowdy distractions. They don’t care about the violence, they just care about the disturbance of their quiet. Dr King talked about the white moderate 60 years ago. Muffugas ain’t changed a damn since then

@Test

the same way riots at a number of BLM protests killed the brand

No, black people being loud ‘killed the brand’

If the Dem party did as you ask you might see them get knocked down to around 150 seats

Bullshit. Nobody’s asking the Dems to wear black and red and make national holidays in honor of the fash punchers. The only thing that’s being asked here is not to equate protesters with literal. Fuckin. NAZIS!

I realize that doesn’t matter because it’s easier being pure than trying to get in government and actually do something, but it is what it is

Not sure when not putting up with literal fuckin nazis, became derisively ‘pure’. This isn’t purity, it’s principles. And, if you can’t tell the difference, that’s a you problem not an us problem. Check yourself

any reading of political science andhistory shows that when there is no agreement on the nature reality, civil ear is inevitable

I’ve seen this floating around. It’s the most meaningless, twee tripe I’ve ever come across. What’s a ‘disagreement on the nature of reality’? Seriously, what does that mean? And between whom? The fuck? Also, when’s ‘inevitable’? When did our supposed, current ‘disagreement’ start, and when’s our civil war coming? Doomsday preacher nonsense…

TreePerson
TreePerson
3 years ago

@This Handle is a Test
agent provocateurs have been sited at a number of anti-police brutality rallies so it kinda goes:
undercover police throw things at uniformed police,
uniformed police deploy chemical weapons and attack nonviolent but aggressive protesters in “self defense”,
media records chaotic videos of people screaming and running and clouds of tear gas possibly people trying to defend themselves from police,
talking heads on TV go on abut violence and chaos with the assumption the police can do no wrong by virtue of being police,
regardless fox news uses stock footage of violent riots from Russia or something and says its from the protest and there viewers believe them.

TLDR Violence gets injected into nonviolent movements by police and media so they can be delegitimatized.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

comment image

All of the “this is going to cause a civil war!” is just asking minorities and the poor to shut up and “take it for the team.” Exactly the same was said about Rosa Parks and the lunch counter sit-ins. Exactly the same was leveled at MLK.

If it starts a civil war, it’s because the agencies of power won’t accept elevating the most vulnerable amongst us without one. I think they’re worth fighting for.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

The Agencies of Power is my band name now. Possibly also my superhero team.

Dan Hoan
3 years ago

@ Fiqah

I have actually been thinking about this a lot. I think part of White Peoples (TM) issue with the violence is that since we were very young we have been taught about MLK in a very sterilized, ‘white-washed’ way. The importance of his use of nonviolence, even after all that had been done to him, his family, and other blacks people is an incredibly powerful story, but of course misses the nuance of the Civil Rights Movement.

I know because I struggle with it myself. I think nonviolence is an incredibly important and useful tactic during protests and movements. It allows the rest of the world to see the terribleness of the other side and compare their actions with inaction because it offers such a striking contrast (which humans often need to understand complex issues. as a group, we do not handle shades of grey easily). (Not to mention it frequently offers an easy moral upper hand in conversations about the issue and is therefore an easy shortcut for people not truly paying attention to the issue to understand the “correct party” in the struggle – you know, good ‘optics’).

But there also comes a time, I believe, when force is necessary. We were not going to beat Hitler with nonviolent protests. We were not going to solve the Civil War with nonviolent protests.

Again its something I struggle with – when is it okay to move from voices and signs to fists to something more. The part of me that was taught from a young age the power of nonviolence truly struggles with the current system. Academically I understand the argument, but it can be hard to escape the biases taught to you from your youth.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

“I reasoned with Nazis, and all I got was this lousy paper”

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/21/article-2699910-1FD66EB900000578-900_634x470.jpg

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

I think part of White Peoples (TM) issue with the violence is that since we were very young we have been taught about MLK in a very sterilized, ‘white-washed’ way.

I wasn’t taught about MLK all that much in school, I’m in Canada, it was more Ghandi. We did get a general overview of the civil rights era though. We still have this white person worship of nonviolence, and I think the important question is to ask why the school system teaches non-violent protest so heavily. Part is obvious – violence is bad, m’kay – but that is contradicted by the way we teach wars. In general we teach them with a good side and a bad side, and our side is the good side that won, and their side is the bad side that lost because of x, y, and z.

Except when the war is a protest, and the target of the protest is our own government. Then it’s both sides had valid points and there’s a sudden need to acknowledge complex morality. We’re still the good guys, but the violence wasn’t justified violence against oppressors. I guarantee that if there isn’t an actual civil war and this period of history represents an incremental change with white people still holding onto power, our schoolbooks will talk about Antifa being a violent reactionary group that hindered the peaceful protests in their desire for change. Agencies of power protecting their own.

School curricula are designed by people living in the society, vetted by school boards and government education departments. They aren’t objective, and are painted with the desires of the dominant forces in society. Check out the revisionist history in Texas to get an idea of what every school board does to some degree or another.

Like Axe said, it’s about a desire to maintain order – in my opinion at least. I have poor perspective on the problem myself.

TheKND
TheKND
3 years ago

@Dan Hoan
I agree. We can see the same thing with the Suffragettes. People like to forget that they bombed letterboxes and lit cricket pitches and clubs on fire. (Compare that to the absolute nightmare of modern feminism… they make videos and roughly talk to you on colleges).

As for violence, it should be a last resort, but sadly, it has to be a resort.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ scildfreja

it was more Ghandi.

I can understand why people might be sceptical about taking advice from Ghandi on how to deal with Nazis.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-hitler-killed-five-million-jews-it-is-the-greatest-crime-of-our-time-but-the-jews-should-have-mahatma-gandhi-231149.jpg

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

I am still wondering why so much focus is given on that one Berkeley incident (which I condemn) when multiple occurences (such as the Deandre Harris beating) is glossed over…and when it’s pretty well-known that the alt-right *specifically* targets Berkeley because it is a liberal wellspring, and always has been.

The “Us vs Them” continues.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Nthing the affirmation that it is indeed a white people thing.

White liberal racism is a different beast than white conservative racism. White liberals tend to want to see themselves as not racist and they want to be perceived by others as not racist. They’ll say the PC things in large groups or around people of color, but when it comes down to it, they want to live in mostly white neighborhoods and send their kids to mostly white schools and they’re uncomfortable when POC, immigrants, and Muslims stand up for themselves. So they latch on to narratives that give them an excuse to give into their racism without seeming racist. The “antifas and BLM are doing social justice wrong” narrative is a prime example of this.

Unfortunately, it’s not going to be until fascism threatens the way of life of white liberals and moderates that a lot of them will see the error of their ways.

I do think the best thing to do is to continue to draw parallels between the political climate today and the political climate to WWII. Going for the emotional argument is not something I love to do, but it’s more effective than trying to debunk myths about BLM or antifa with facts. Or hoping that they’ll have enough empathy to oppose violence against marginalized people even if it doesn’t hurt them personally. I feel okay with trying to scare white liberals and moderates because sooner or later, the fascists will come for them too if it’s left unchecked. Authoritarians are never content with stopping at just oppressing one or two marginalized groups.

Mooncustafer
Mooncustafer
3 years ago

I know it’s a cliche to blame stuff on movies/tv, but I’m wondering if there’s been a trend in the past couple of decades of Hollywood trying to appeal to the teen-boy demographic with action movies, while placating the parents by not appearing to “promote violence,” and thus you get these stories in which there are multiple reels of bloodless fights and explosions, culminating with the hero refusing to actually kill the villain (no matter how many people he’s killed, and how many he gleefully plans to kill) because that would make him “just as bad.” Then the villain lunges at him and falls off the roof, ending up dead without the hero having to dirty his hands.

I may have become irritated by this trope even before the real world began to imitate it.

Ellesar
Ellesar
3 years ago

Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs. As it is, they succumbed anyway in their millions.

To put it in context: ‘The quote is in the context of Gandhi’s argument to his biographer that collective suicide would have been a heroic response that would have “aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler’s violence”.’

I am not defending the remark which seems extraordinarily callous, but Gandhi was prepared to make great sacrifices himself, and able to inspire others to do the same, so he was not making this remark as ‘the man on the street’.

bluecat
bluecat
3 years ago

So are we all meant to just politely watch the Nazis as they commit murder and advocate genocide? Maybe write a few sternly worded letters? Or what?

Well I’m British, so a bit of tutting, some muttered resentment and being unable to sleep or digest for the next 6 weeks due to suppressed anger is the usual tactic.

But actually – sod that. These are people who would deny my right to live as I am, and would deny the right of people I love and respect to live at all.

I won’t sock them unless in self defence but I will block them, mock them, and mess up their plans as much as I can.

I was proud when our local mini fascists, the EDL, held a “march” in my small city. They got roundly mocked and made fun of by (among others) a 6’4″ transwoman arm in arm with the women from the local mosque, a delegation from the synagogue, some silver haired churchgoers and a bunch of teenage werewolves.

They retreated and it turned out the organisers of their little “Don’t want foreigners here!” wnakfest weren’t from here at all, as they all beetled off to the station. I’m told the local taxi drivers wouldn’t accept their custom.

Talonknife
Talonknife
3 years ago

@bluecat

I don’t know why, but the teenage werewolves are what really put the icing on the cake in that story. TBH, I didn’t even know that subculture still existed.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite
Brony, Social Justice Cenobite
3 years ago

Re:squirmy both-siderism
The white person thing is most visible and relevant in this situation. I think it’s an in-group thing with some connections to rationalizing non-confrontation with people likely to be difficult because they are more aggressive and authoritarian.

I think you see another (male and enabler) version in the way people rationalize lack of confrontation with sexual predators at multiple levels of society, or a straight version with homophobes…it’s hard work confronting aggressive, authoritarian people, but it should be kept in mind that aggression and authority are neutrals. IMO the democratic party shys away from confrontation because there is less aggression and instinct to use/respond to authority (possibly because it is so often only presented as bad), so when when they are needed it’s harder to get the authorities to exert that authority with aggression.

That’s what it looks like to me anyway.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
3 years ago

@Scildfreja @Dan Hoan Thanks for the feedback on this. I’m sad now but at least I know. I strongly believe that the single most dangerous aspect of White supremacy is the idea of perpetual White benevolence and redeemability.

@Axecalibur: Everything you said. Yup. THAT.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Alan:
Regarding biomass, in the ‘there’s an xkcd for everything’ column: https://xkcd.com/1338/

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/land_mammals.png

This is only mammals, not all life, so it’s obviously a significantly lower value than all biomass, but it gets you near the ballpark. And the breakdown by species type is interesting. Humans outmass all wild animals on the planet put together… and our cattle outmass us.

Regarding antifa and ‘white people thing’, I’m certainly guilty of not standing up when things were going wrong. But I’m not going to try and argue against those who do. I suppose that puts me in the ‘least I could do’ category. (Major Bloodnok: Oh-oh-ohh, it was the least I could do. A quantity I specialize in!)

Actually, regarding ‘white people thing’ in general, I just ran into this on Kickstarter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/craftmyoccasion/party-supplies-celebrating-children-of-color
It’s basically a startup creating children’s party supplies with something other than white children on the plates. 12 days left, halfway to the goal.

Ray of Rays
Ray of Rays
3 years ago

@ Scildfreja Unnyðnes

Bonus points: those two Black Rangers are played by nonwhite actors (Johnny Yong Bosch and Roger Velasco).

Like Axe said, it’s about a desire to maintain order – in my opinion at least. I have poor perspective on the problem myself.

Your perspective is still in good company.

“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.”

– Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., “Letter From a Birmingham Jail” (excerpt)

To back up what Ben postulated…yeah, I never learned about this document while growing up white. And while I’d heard the whole of the March on Washington speech, I’d never heard the beginning emphasized (i.e. everything before “I Have a Dream”), or remembered the “promissory note defaulted” part, until I was already an adult.

White myopia starts young.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

White liberal racism is a different beast than white conservative racism. White liberals tend to want to see themselves as not racist and they want to be perceived by others as not racist. They’ll say the PC things in large groups or around people of color, but when it comes down to it, they want to live in mostly white neighborhoods and send their kids to mostly white schools and they’re uncomfortable when POC, immigrants, and Muslims stand up for themselves. So they latch on to narratives that give them an excuse to give into their racism without seeming racist. The “antifas and BLM are doing social justice wrong” narrative is a prime example of this.

This is why white liberal racism bothers me a hell of a lot more. A racist conservative tends to dog-whistle loud enough that a typical person can point to him and say “Oh, you’re just a racist shitferbrains.” But the white liberal racist is only just clueless enough to believe themselves above not only racism, but in many cases politics as a whole. This is the kind of dipshit that tosses the phrase “identity politics” around as a dismissal tactic. It just smacks of so much tone deaf privilege that it, and it feels just so forced on their behalf, as if they’re just a single revelation away from realizing how bigoted they’re acting, you try everything you can to break through and inevitably get frustrated.

SpukiKitty
SpukiKitty
3 years ago

Slightly off-topic but in case things about the world get too overwhelming, I have some news site dedicated to Good News for your perusal….

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/

https://www.sunnyskyz.com/positive-good-news.php?week=pastweek

https://www.today.com/news/good-news

http://www.dailygood.org/

….There’s actually a lot of cool stuff that’s not being reported elsewhere. It’s good to have balance. It’s easy to think the world is so bad that it’s hopeless.

Yes; It’s wise to see that there is a lot of problems in the world. This is not about being a Pollyanna. However; There’s still a lot of good in the world and we need to keep things in perspective and to keep up a high morale. With a high morale, we can address the bad stuff a LOT better.

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
3 years ago

Alright, for what it’s worth, I have not been talking about both sidesism, but I am against preemptive violence (heck, depending on what you think of Huey Newton’s explanation as to why they chose the black panther, to vent the Black Panthers wereat least initially against throwing the first punch). I’m also not opposed to counterprotests but let’s try to make it more Boston than berkley. I’m not on the other side of this from.most, just a huge disagreement on tactics.

Re: comparisons to nazi Germany. In the short term this is alarmist as the Weimer Republic did not have really any public institutions nor history of democracy while the US has some which at minimum lengthens the process to do this.

My civil war comment was more along the lines of get ready for it, not back down. The right is going to start one regardless of what we do. And right now the two views of reality in the US arebetween the political death cult known as Trumpism (their reality is whatever Big Brother, er Trump tells them it is) and the broad Church of the left (which is directionally reality though we have difference s).

Also, Alan Robertshaw, wasn’t the truth of Chamberlain slightly more complex as that agreement was less “we’ve settled things with the Nazis” and more “I’ve bought time to get my country prepared for the war to come as my generals claim we can’t win if it happens now”? I believe I can find the links backing this up if necessary.

Sorry if I missed anyone’s comments on mine.

rick
rick
3 years ago

Every form of protest against fascism is legitimate. By any means necessary, peaceful or violent, it must be stopped.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ jenora

Humans outmass all wild animals on the planet

Wow, that graphic is amazing. And the implications are quite staggering. I’m still trying to process it all.

Wonder what happens if you throw sea life into the mix. Would blue whales even register? And what about microbial life? I keep thinking though how much water and food is needed to sustain that agricultural animal population and how small a reduction would be needed to eliminate global malnutrition and deaths through lack of clean drinking water?

But thanks for digging that out.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Alan, blue whales are 500,000 tonnes of “wet” biomass (some of the numbers include water, some do not). Humans are 350 million tonnes, wet; cattle are 520. Earthworms, somewhere around 5 billion. Fish, somewhere around a billion. To give you some perspective. Cereal crops, dry, are around two and a half billion tonnes.

If you would like a sad, then: blue whales are half of a million tonnes of wet biomass; before whaling started they estimate something like thirty six billion tonnes. And their story really isn’t unique. Our methods of cultivation and agriculture have devastated the ecological systems of this planet in a way which is staggering to think about.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Alan:

Wow, that graphic is amazing. And the implications are quite staggering.

Randall Munroe does a lot of interesting visualization work; it seems to be one of his fascinations. He does things like the Radiation Dose Chart (which includes the fact that you get more radiation living near a coal plant than a nuclear plant).

And what about microbial life?

He actually addresses that one in the mouseover text for the image on the site, which reads: Bacteria still outweigh us thousands to one–and that’s not even counting the several pounds of them in your body.

how small a reduction would be needed to eliminate global malnutrition and deaths through lack of clean drinking water?

The answer to that is probably ‘no reduction at all’. Feeding everybody on the planet isn’t really a production problem, it’s a distribution problem. Which in many ways is worse, because distribution is a lot more political, and there’s likely no way to fix it without meddling in national affairs in ways for which there are good historical reasons not to do.

Of course, even in developed nations, food deserts are a thing. (Hmm, the Wikipedia page says the first official usage of the term was by a UK task force.)

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Scildfreja:

Our methods of cultivation and agriculture have devastated the ecological systems of this planet in a way which is staggering to think about.

Which was one of the points of the xkcd comic in question: animals left alive at this point are mostly ranked by ‘how useful they are to us’. Most of the mammalian biomass on the planet is in human livestock.

Zephkiel
Zephkiel
3 years ago

From a pretty far outside perspective (I’m not in the US, that is) I don’t get a whole lot of the hand-wringing and nuances here. Talking about how “violence is only justifiable in self-defence” and getting angry because people on whatever side think you’re as bad as the fascists just seems like you’re pissed because you’re on your high horse and are upset that your moral superiority isn’t being recognised.

So… Fuck the high horse. Get off it. Be as violent as the Nazis – it’s the only way to get them to go back into their holes. You’re going to get “both sides” bullshit anyway, so why not be as effective as possible in destroying the actual Nazis? If they know stepping out in their polo shirts and tiki torches is going to get them beaten to a pulp every time they do it, they’ll stop stepping outside. Look at how they’ve cried about facing the most minor consequences to their hateful actions – they’re cowards.

If it helps, think of it as pre-emptive self defence. If the Nazis win, they’ll have no compunction about killing you.

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
3 years ago

Re: white people practicing bothsiderism

I think a big part of why so many of us white people don’t understand how dangerous Nazis can be is because we’re insulated from most of the violence and terror of racism. As someone who’s had little cause to feel unsafe for most of her life, I’m coming to grips with how scary racism is for PoC when I read their stories. And I know that Nazis won’t come after a white woman like me unless she actively opposes them, but PoC are in danger just for existing. I wish more people understood that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ scildfreja & jenora

Well I’m going to make friends with earthworms, and possibly microorganisms . Just in case it all kicks off.

Ah, whales. Taiji starts today. And in a way it’s related to our broader discussion as to permissable tactics and perception. I guess you know that Sea Shepherds have had to suspend anti whaling operations because of the way international anti terrorism laws are being used against them.

Water and food security is a fascinating topic. A friend was heavily involved in that and I used to help her write her reports (mainly by topping up wine whilst she typed). A lot of tension and skirmishes arise from inequitable water distribution. Even when there’s major underlying issues like in Israel/Palestine, it’s often something relatively minor like diversion of water supplies for agriculture that acts as a flashpoint for actual conflict.

What a world eh?

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Alan:
In the case of the Jordan River, the diversion of water supplies isn’t exactly a minor issue, especially considering how much of that territory is desert or arid. Well over half of the water is being diverted now, and it’s pretty well established that attempts to divert water upstream of existing diversions was one of the things that led to the Six Day War in 1967.

And up here in Canada, water rights have been one of the long-existing sources of political tension with the U.S. A significant chunk of the Canada-U.S. border runs through fresh water lakes.

Hmm… on the Canadian side, you have the ‘St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation’. The American side is the ‘Saint Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation’. You could make all sorts of interesting observations about the implications of those choices of wording.

Bobbie Lob Bomb
Bobbie Lob Bomb
3 years ago

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/drawing-distinctions-antifa-the-alt-right-and-black-lives-matter/538320/

I will say this, though: As someone who is Antifa in the broad sense, I think Berkeley was an enormous fail. The Alt-Right came to stir up optics of violent Black Bloc while, for their part, staying restrained. And it worked. They got their optics, and it worked for its intended purpose. We make fun of the Alt-Right, but there’s a lot of savvy people there who understand how to win in the court of public opinion, and thereby recruit. And they understand the left better than the left, in many cases, understand them. We have to be smarter. I’m not opposed to Black Bloc, but if you’re willing to fight, you also have to have the wisdom to know when not to fight.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

At the rate they’re going, don’t be surprised if it’s the Democrats who usher in “The Revolution” due to their repeated incompetence, lack of principles morals and Nazi apologist positions.

I thought last primaries was as bad as it could get. Evidently I was proven wrong. Even Sanders is out there condemning Antifa.

It’s as MLK said: the greatest obstacle to equality isn’t the openly racist KKK member or Nazi, but the moderate White who insists on trying to stay atop a pedestal and hold on to a false neutrality that reeks more of cowardice and complicity.

JS
JS
3 years ago

I enjoyed XKCD’s radiation chart, partly because he defined a “Banana equivalent dose”, being the amount of radiation emitted from an average banana (due mostly to environmental potassium being very slightly radioactive).

numerobis
numerobis
3 years ago

Alan: life on earth is an insignificant amount of mass, but you can detect its effect from light-years away. Our atmosphere has a lot of oxygen, and the land surface is green — both those are because of life.

If you land, and do some geology, you notice entire types of rocks that are only possible because of life. Coal, for instance; or chalk. And you see marks of life in sedimentary rocks everywhere.