AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

Leo,

You need to read this. And you need to stop.

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2017/08/what-the-media-got-wrong-about-last-weekends-protests-in-berkeley/

@Sinkable John
I figured it was a misunderstanding that I hoped to clear up, that’s all, and wanted to understand people’s views better, which I now do, and I’ve acknowledged the perspective. I don’t think that a troll would try to clarify and explain their perspective or acknowledge other’s views.

@weirwoodtreehugger
My understanding is that she means Trump supporters at rallies who are alongside identifiable Nazis/Alt-Right are legitimate targets, which seems to accurately describe what happened at some rallies, and I can see the reasoning behind that. I’d asked for clarification several times, twisting her words is not my intent.

It does seem like there’s a disagreement between whether Trump supporters at rallies are legitimate targets or not? Some have said they are, Policy of Madness has stated that they’re fascists anyway and that being at a rally with Nazis is proof that they are Nazis and thus legitimate targets, some seem to disagree with my stating that that’s their opinion.

Haven’t you ever heard of a dog whistle? Free speech in this case (as it often is) is code for hate speech.

Right, I know that, you know that, but my point was that ‘if a rally is advertised publicly as about free speech’ that I’m not sure that Trump supporters will pick up on that. I’ve seen enough Dems not pick up on the dogwhistle to think that could happen. But you feel that for those actually there at the rally, it would be obvious what the true intent of the rally was, so that’s fair enough, that may indeed be the case as you say.

@Catalpa
If you can see they’re going to target the synagogue, of course stop them. I don’t disagree with the actions of Antifa in defence.

@Scildfreja
Thanks for feeling it’s Ok, I can understand why there’s a problem with it. I am definitely not asking anyone to lay down and die. I fear that when the use of force is advocated, that marginalised people are most at risk, though, so I feel confrontation might be better avoided if possible. I can see why people feel it’s gone beyond that point. I can see why they’d be upset if I said they should be totally non-violent at all times, but I don’t think that they should.

I am in one of the groups threatened, I’m a disabled woman.

@Policy of Madness
It would probably sound milquetoast because I’m not actually intending on making a very strong anti-violence statement here, because morally, I can see the reasoning, including for revolution. If I said ‘I don’t think it’s the time for revolution right now’, would that seem understandable? It seems as though making a mild statement disagreeing with the use of force other than in self-defence is regarded as worse than making a strong one? You’re inclined towards sympathy with the position that violence is outright bad, I’m inclined towards sympathy to the position that it’s justified. So ‘force is Ok in self-defence and defence of others but is better avoided if possible’ seems like it would be an understandable position.

I really don’t want to upset anyone, that wasn’t my intent, so I will leave it there and just keep on reading up on what’s happening, I can’t really say anything else about this specific issue anyway.

I think Leo is a sea lion. I stopped reading their screeds at page 5 because they’re all the same. Nice job by everyone here responding!

I’ll make a little confession here; I used to think that Dali was kind of extreme in her comments and views. It didn’t bother me enough to try and rebut anything she said but I found myself shaking my head at some of her comments.

But now, these things have been percolating in my head for well over a year and events have unfolded in that time that have made me realize that Dali* is absolutely right. A middle aged, white, middle class, straight, cis woman has started to wake up. It’s uncomfortable for sure, but less than nothing compared to what oppressed folk have been dealing with since forever.

I’m not up for violence myself, but I’m ready to stand behind whomever is willing to stand up to fascism, however they have to do it. I can bake delicious, energy-dense cookies and make good-looking signs even if I’m too cowardly to risk injury and arrest.

*and not just Dali, of course! I learn so much from everyone here, but as far as the discussion going on here, it’s mostly Dali, Axe, and Fiqah that stand out for me.

I feel, being transgender, I really am in no position to decry riots because, you know. Stonewall. Any arguments that violent insurrection can’t lead to a better world can be rebutted by pointing to the Stonewall uprising. Also, I can’t tut tut violence, because push HAS turned to shove before and I know I’m not above it all’. Do I like violence? No. Some people live to fight in a physical sense, but that’s not me. But that doesn’t mean I can’t play support roles. Front line soldiers would get nowhere without rear echelon support. And although disability, mental illness issues, and PTSD has sidelined me from the fight where once I was ‘boots on the ground’, I still hope to do my bit however possible.

EVERY TIME the Dems lose, they think “I guess we have to go closer to the center!” DESPITE the fact that, at least that their last two presidents won not because they campaigned as centrists (despite how they governed) but because they appealed to the best of the left. But honestly, they get on board with leftest causes when feet in the streets had already brought us to the tipping point. Then they swoop in, jump on board, and assume credit. I’m not so illiberal as to think there’s no place for electoral politics, but at the same time, I recognize that they ain’t gonna save us. We’ve gotta save ourselves.

Ah you were talking about the more recent protests in that case, fuck you. Keep fucking off until you get back here and then fuck off some more. May you never find your shoes and your path be eternally littered with vintage legos. May you live in interesting times and may you always get *exactly* what you wish for.

For those that aren’t leo who don’t quite get it.

Nazis always show up with the intent to do violence. We can see this during ww2, during the 80s and on the punk scene.

We need antifa bc most peaceful protestors aren’t prepared for the level of violence nazis dish out and if not out numbered they *will* be violent, a favorite tactic being to jump someone who’s broken off from the group.

And yes, we can identify nazis, we’ve been doing it for over 50 years.

@Leo

*Ahem*

nyoom.

@Chimeric

In their own way, they’re arguably worse than the Nazis because at least the Nazis believe in something.

http://ooquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/10-the-big-lebowski-quotes.jpg

[Image desc: Walter Sobchak (John Goodman) sitting at a bar with the Dude (Jeff Bridges) and Donny (Steve Buscemi), saying “Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it’s an ethos]

@ChimericMind

They would happily LOL away while people are murdered, not because they truly believe that minorities are lesser beings, but because they don’t place value on anyone’s life other than their own.

Yes. Bravo. Exactly. Masterfully said. Although, I don’t entirely agree:

I believe they do think minorities are lesser beings.They also believe the majority… a.k.a. ‘the normies’…. are lesser beings. They are on their own side only, completely nihilistic, and delighted by death and suffering. They gleefully share photos of gruesome death ‘for the lulz’, and are excited by the prospect of everybody else getting theirs. They are utter reprobates who ‘just want to see the world burn’. Don’t think they’re joking when they say this.

Leo says:

so I will leave it there

Well, thank fuckin’ finally!

I’m just going to point out one more thing this troll said, because I think it’s important to make clear:

I am definitely not asking anyone to lay down and die.

This is a lie. When someone says something like, “I do agree with using [violence] as it’s needed in self-defence, or defence of others,” as if that’s not what’s already happening, they are showing that they are indifferent to the reality of others’ peril. They are, at best, more interested in their own appearance of reasonableness than making sure it has anything to do with the situation at hand.

Moralizing that depends on denying the immediacy of other people’s peril is, in fact, asking those people to lay down and die.

And this callousness is all the more obvious when it comes from someone who worries at length about a hypothetical Accidental MAGA-Hat Granny getting a bike lock to the back of her fragile skull for merely wandering confusedly through a free speech rally.

Leo is sure working hard to present Nazis as sympathetic by suggesting they’re merely misunderstood, possibly helpless, elderly women, who might have merely been in the wrong place at the wrong time and miiiight not even really want to kill millions of people.

There’s a name for that.

My, what masterful trolling from Leo!

Hello, folks. I’ve commented before and have been (probably) hostile because I’m a brown person in South Asia, and the US and Europe-centric conversations here have annoyed me no end, especially when us brown folks in South Asia will be at the receiving end of foreign policy from both of those continents. The lack of acknowledgement of that especially during election time pissed me off mightily. I mean, we’re making quite enough trouble for ourselves already (Fascism? We have ours! We have worse than Trump, seriously, everything you see in the US has already happened and is still happening over here! The north of our country might happily nuke the south because the south is full of commies and refuses to speak the right language!), thank you, do not need more shit flung our way from over there.

I don’t even remember what name I used then. Or email id.

So that’s my disclaimer.

I’m commenting now because I’m heartened by the response to fascism – we could learn from you, frankly, my sense of superiority over the damn Americans is fast eroding because you’re rising and we’re not. We have the numbers and it’s past time for our (next) revolution but we’re all just on Facebook, mumbling. I thought we were better. We’re not. You’re doing better. We should look to you and learn, and rise. I hope we will. We’re working on it, anyway.

Anyway, about Leo – what bullshit. No, sorry, bullshit would be excellent for my plants. This is catshit, which I believe is pretty useless, can’t even compost.

“There’s a time for violence, which is when it’s for self-defence or defence of others, I agree, it’s just not now because some of those people marching with Nazis are fine people and things don’t really seem all that bad” seems to be the gist of this person’s entire derailing rambling.

So:

They don’t believe that vulnerable people face imminent threat when Nazis assemble and march – how nice for them.

And/Or

They don’t think the people who are vulnerable and threatened matter, and so it doesn’t count as the right kind of self-defence or defence of others

And/Or

They think how it looks is the most important thing, so what if a few people – the right/wrong kind of people – get hurt or are killed along the way, that would be really good optics: this is patently wrong, plenty of people have been hurt and killed and the establishment doesn’t really care

And/Or

Those who march with Nazis deserve protection from Antifa and that’s the priority.

All of that is catshit. Apologies to cats, but really, that’s the catshit of lactose intolerant cats who got into the cream and lapped all of it up, and pooped all over the nice needlepoint cushions.

Also, notice the bingo card coming out, too. Social anxiety, too, now? As somebody with crippling social anxiety, let me just say wow, Leo, you have an excellent handle on it to be able to come back to a message board where people are very vehemently disagreeing with you and keep responding, because I’d have had at least one panic attack and at least five drinks by now, and I’d be hiding behind the couch, looking at the laptop as if it might explode. Tell me how you do it, I need a lot of prepping and handwaving conversations with myself before I can even post on a new board. Your coping mechanism must be really good. However, it does remind me of the Tumblr image – the white dude stick figure typing away with a speech bubble ‘As a person of color, I think…’

You know, Leo is worse than those who categorically state that violence is wrong, period. Because Leo is of the belief that when things are bad enough, violence is warranted, so it follows that they believe that it’s not bad enough now, despite all evidence and all that people have told them. That’s either willful ignorance or frank admission that they don’t think the people who are at serious risk now are worth protecting. People who after being given a clear rundown of how bad things are, still categorically state that violence is wrong are sometimes (not always, not often, but at least it’s a possibility) brave people who are willing to put their bodies and lives on the line for the sake of non-violent protest, as a shield for vulnerable people when Nazis march. And yes, that kind of sacrifice can make excellent “optics” if backed by excellent social media tactics to make sure that the right narrative is being spun, and that is a huge uphill battle when the media is full of Leos.

When you make even lurkers extremely angry, you know you’re doing something very wrong. Please go away and try to understand why you either think people are not at risk of imminent bodily harm when Nazis march, or why you think those who march with Nazis need protection more than those against whom the Nazis march.

Also – Dali, Fiqah, you’re both really wonderful. I will try to be more like you, in my context.

A little bit of good news (well, kind of. Obviously it’s very bad news – though not a huuuuge surprise – that some serving soldiers are nazis, but it’s good news that they’ve been arrested for it)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/four-held-on-suspicion-of-being-members-of-outlawed-neo-nazi-group-national-action