AntiFa ate my baby: Today in Tweets

@Sinkable John
I’m not condemning you for it, I’m just wondering if it’s the ideal tactic.

It can on occasion be better optics not to, because:
a) it may be considered excessive use of force to flatten someone who wasn’t immediately about to punch you. That’s not necessarily fair, but is still the case, especially when Republicans are already frightened of violent leftwingers.
b) the Nazis have learnt to take off their Nazi regalia, and put on their MAGA hats and go out there with ‘free speech!’ signs

People, including Rebuplicans, were already shocked at the Nazis in the open in Charlottesville, when that’s the case, you don’t need to throw a punch to make an impression. You can be on the side that’s against them without going out with the intent of beating them up.

@kupo
Which tactics? The other stuff Antifa and other protesters are doing. Use of force in immediate self-defence, peaceful counter-protest, mockery (incl. things like the dog poo protest), educating/explaining for people… I think all these things are preferable.

If they’re not going to take action, then why should we give a fuck whether they look favorably on us?

Because even if they won’t take action against the Nazis, you might be able to convince them to vote for a more leftwing Democratic candidate. Shift the Overton window, and that should have the effect of action against the Nazis.

Otherwise, what happens? You win this skirmish, history perhaps looks relatively favourably, but people go on supporting the same old candidates, and nothing really changes because the underlying problem that gave rise to the Nazis was still there, just like before. The system in its entirety is the problem.

@Axe
Yes, the media might well try to demonise Antifa anyway, but it’s harder to sustain that narrative when everyone can see that you’re all standing there chanting ‘No Nazis, no KKK, no fascist USA!’ and your opponents are clearly Neo-Nazis, than it is if you’re going out there to hit people (ostensibly) protesting about free speech with bike locks.

Social media can go either way, but does mean the truth can get out there easier.

@Leo
I could just fuckin repeat what the fuck I just said, and it’d be a rebuttal to this too. That usually means summat

it’s harder to sustain that narrative when everyone can see that you’re all standing there chanting ‘No Nazis, no KKK, no fascist USA!’ and your opponents are clearly Neo-Nazis

Going back to public opinion of the civil rights movement in the 60s, ya know what survived the narrative? 10 years of nonviolent direct action. 10 years of police brutality. 10 years of red baiting. 10 years of FBI antagonism. 10 years of arson and lynchings and terrorism. It took over 10 years for the ‘white moderate’ to get onboard with the civil rights movement (if weakly). The narrative don’t seem too difficult to sustain to me…

Because even if they won’t take action against the Nazis, you might be able to convince them to vote for a more leftwing Democratic candidate

The fuck? This is a horrendous take. In so many ways. 1st, what @kupo said. 2nd, who’s they? Dem politicians or Dem voters? 3rd, more ‘leftwing’ than whom? 4th, presumably, seeing as you’re hoping for a more leftwing candidate, the last one wasn’t up to snuff for you. Fair enough, but why would stopping the nazi punching lead to this? Unless you can show that an increase in nazi punching correlates with fewer of less ‘leftwing’ candidates, I’m not sure why you’re so confident in the opposite effect

@Leo

It’s about the optics rather than just whether they’re seen as having deserved it – beat up Lauren Southern, a young, pretty, white blonde woman who often seems to act as reporter (which makes her come over as a less direct participant, even though she is), I don’t think you’ll get a good response.

Lauren Southern raised money for a boat, crewed by white supremacists, whose mission was to stop refugees from coming to Europe. They failed, but make no mistake about it, they wanted those refugees to die.

This is the person you’re saying it would be bad optics to punch: someone funding a fucking death squad.

Leo is clearly of the oceanic variety.

I think the unspoken question is “Will Nazis and their fellow travelers be defeated electorally therefore requiring the middle class to vote such and such a way, or not?”

For my part, I think that the precedent has been set. We’re going to see candidates put forth that are ever more right wing. Maybe a progressive Democrat will become our next president, but I don’t think this will be the end of it. The White Nationalist recruitment machine has to be fought. It’s tricky, because they can’t be allowed to further suppress the minority vote and electoral politics is important there. On the other hand, we can’t sit by while charismatic fascist leaders grow their base and liberals clutch their bodice whilst retreating to the fainting couch. They must be fought at every level. They pose an existential threat to too many. Because yeah…. they may not be the Nazi Party of 1933. But they aim to be. This cannot be allowed. And one thing we know from history…. the ballot box won’t be the thing that prevents it.

It does not matter what happens it will be spun as a violent leftist riot,
if there is no violence they just use stock footage and when its fact checked obviously the fact checkers are lying.

The “optics” are not a thing that can be influenced by the truth or even by the nonexistence of an event,
if the media wants a story abut violent clashes between puppies and the police they will make it happen even if it needs to be made from scratch.

This is bringing back memories of the lead up to the Iraq war. CNN had on some pro-war general and someone who was opposed to the war. While the anti-war guest was talking, instead of showing him, they showed footage of Saddam Hussein in his full dictator regalia and carrying a gun.

So yeah, people and organizations who support the status quo will always, always find a way to paint social justice/anti-war/pro-worker advocates as violent and threatening. Even treasonous. It’s always been that way and always will.

While we’re talking optics, let’s not forget Stonewall. A violent riot that had terrible optics. The media had a field day of condemnation and mockery. But I’m trans, not arrested nor institutionalized when I leave the apartment, and was able to marry my wife. This isn’t despite a riot and unappealing optics, but because of them. Optics played a role in the endgame, sure. But there wouldn’t have been a game at all without fighting in the street.

You know what would be great “optics”, Leo? If they show that fucking clip of Deandre Harris getting the shit beat out of him by those poor, unassuming white supremacists/white nationalists_whatever the fuck they are. Over and over and over again.There’s your “optics”. These are the assholes that antifa and other protesters are in battle with.

Fuck that stupid word “optics”. That word is fast becoming a joke.

“Over the past 10 years (2007-2016), domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the United States. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing extremists.” -ADL

THESE GROUPS KILL. Not just Heather Heyer, but hundreds. Fuck “optics.”

And remember one goddamned thing- if these assholes didn’t hold their rallies, antifa and other protesters wouldn’t show up, because there’d be no REASON to.

I’ve lived long enough to remember the Civil Rights struggle, and how the “optics” always portrayed the ones who wanted them as the evil ones. I remember Kent State, where the “optics” were to blame the students for their own deaths. I remember some of my family member’s memoirs where their neighbors were apathetic to the suffering of Hitler’s many victims, and how the deaths of my distant family members affected them. (We’re Romany) And now I see this shit starting slowly to creep back into the thoughts of Americans, and I see you trying to handwave this shit away because you choose to believe the bullshit of poor fucking “oppressed” blonde alt-righters rather than the people actively trying to mitigate the harm these assholes are doing?

There ARE no “good optics.” There’s only what the people gullible to this shit choose to believe.

No, I’m not Antifa, per se. But I AM anti-fascist, and I will be until the day I die, because I’ve SEEN what fascists do, my family EXPERIENCED it first-hand, and those who want to excuse and give care and succor to these groups can FUCK RIGHT OFF.

/rant

SFHC: brilliant!

This isn’t fair. It’s not unreasonable to suggest hitting someone with a bike lock is a bad idea tactically. I’m not going to apologise for that, I wouldn’t expect someone to for being outright pacifist either, but I’m not even that.

@Kupo

My point is that people like Leo will probably never approve of *any* protest. It will all be going too far.

Except I explicitly approved of peaceful counter-protest, and the use of force in immediate self-defence, in my last response to you. I did not condemn going out with the intent of punching Nazis, either, I just don’t think it’s the ideal tactic.

In fact, right now they’re all talking about how they need to find a more centrist (read: right-wing) dem candidate because otherwise they won’t be able to get more of the centrists to vote for their candidate.

Dem politicians or Dem voters? 3rd, more ‘leftwing’ than whom? 4th, presumably, seeing as you’re hoping for a more leftwing candidate, the last one wasn’t up to snuff for you. Fair enough, but why would stopping the nazi punching lead to this? Unless you can show that an increase in nazi punching correlates with fewer of less ‘leftwing’ candidates, I’m not sure why you’re so confident in the opposite effect.

The point isn’t optics, the point is that people won’t start changing their minds now. Everyone and their lawyer’s picked a side by now, so there isnt really much to say about that anymore.

Right, these are fair points, all. I think though there was a bit of a shift after Charlottesville, for a moment there at least. I meant Dem voters, Axe. I’m not confident in the opposite effect, I’m not confident their minds can be changed, but if they can’t the situation really does look hopeless, so I think it needs to be tried, at least. I agree with Bobbie LobBomb that the opposition will carry on putting forward more and more rightwing candidates, and if that happens it’s not just about stopping the Nazis now but if you can keep on stopping them, or if there’s much world left to stop them in, after the nukes inevitably get used. The system is white supremacist, so unless that can be changed, there will carry on being Nazis.

I do think it’s going to be easier for leftwingers to convince them, if they’re not panicking over the idea of violent far leftists. Maybe it still won’t work, but worth a go?

@Myoo
Optics isn’t a question of deserving it or not.

I know the media will spin it anyway. But I think there’s a difference between acknowledging that they will, and suggesting that therefore there’s no point not going out with the active intention of using force. Let alone outright advocating going out with the intent of using force. After all, the media spin it in the first place because they expect painting protesters as violent to have an effect. So maybe going out and using force isn’t the ideal response. It might just play into their hands even more.

I accept the history, but not sure it really follows that because force was used and it panned out Ok in the end, that intending to use force is therefore the best possible tactic now (in different circumstances). There are cases where I think we might feel the force used wasn’t the best approach, too.

@kupo
No, I’m not speaking out against Antifa. I’m suggesting a specific tactic isn’t the best. I’ve expressed support for other tactics. It is not ‘you are with all of us on absolutely everything, all the time, or you’re against us’, that’s too black and white. It’s basically impossible with a disparate group, too. There’s no way Antifa all agree with each other on everything.

ONE person hit somebody with a bike lock. This is not a fucking universal antifa tactic, whereas those five assholes who beat up Deandre Harris? Yeah, those tactics ARE. Yet you only talk about the one instance with the bike lock…that’s the “optic” you’re choosing to wag your finger at everyone.