Categories
/pol/ 4chan 8chan domestic violence empathy deficit entitled babies false flag literal nazis lying liars memes men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny racism TROOOLLLL!! twitter

Nazi trolls launch fake #PunchANazi campaign to smear AntiFa as domestic abusers

4channers launch a false flag campaign, apparently forgetting that we can see what they post

UPDATE: See update at the end of this post. It’s kind of funny.

By David Futrelle

On Monday, I published a post devoted to the proposition that Alt-rightists and their ideological kin lie about everything — usually badly. As if to prove my point, right-wing trolls from 4chan and Gab have launched a false flag “meme campaign” designed to smear AntiFa activists as supporters of domestic violence against women and children.

The campaign seems to have originated at 4chan — see the graphic at the top of this post — where it was quickly taken up by some of the resident anons. (Click for full-sized graphic; I’ve censored the graphic depictions of bruises.)

The idea quickly found its way to Gab — the famously “censorship-free” Twitter alternative, positively overflowing with Nazis and shitlords — where an alt-right Gabber called @Sperg quickly assembled a vast library of grotesque memes.

ᴄʀʏᴘᴛᴡᴀʀᴢPRO · @cryptwarz 🏛 Politics · 5 hours · edited Steps to Ostracize Antifa and all Communists: 1.) Go to @Sperg on Gab 2.) Download Images or Copy Image Links 3.) Go To Twitter and Hashtag #PunchANazi 4.) Show your "Righteous Indignation" at the depravity of Antifa and demand the media and the Left Denouce this vile hatred. 5.) Sit Back

Here are a few of the tamer ones, lightly censored to obscure graphic depictions of bruises and other injuries — though they’re still pretty disturbing.

I’ve taken the liberty of writing FAKE on each in big red letters.

Many of the memes were so over-the-top that they could only fool the most gullible — like those advocating the beating of children and elderly women.

It wasn’t long before these memes began popping up on Twitter — some of them posted by alt-rightists and Trump fans, others posted by clearly fake AntiFa accounts. (Or at least clearly fake to you and me, not necessarily to your typical Trump fan.)

 

It seems incredible to think that anyone could be fooled by such obviously fake memes — particularly since the evidence that this is a false flag is being spread around the hashtag by leftists trying to correct the record. But smear campaigns like this work even if only a small number of those seeing the fake memes think they’re true; they further poison an already poisoned well.

Dirty tricks have always been a part of politics. But for many in and around the alt-right today, politics has become almost nothing but dirty tricks. We need to remember that these are people who lie as casually and compulsively as their hero Donald Trump — and call their hoaxes out every time we spot them.

UPDATE: Naturally, 4chan anons are mad that they’ve been found out, as Robyn Pennacchia details in a lovely post on Wonkette. 

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

169 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

“There’s not much acknowledgement that the USSR was a huge part of things and not much about the women and people of color who fought. My mom thinks the channel is about invoking what people think of as a golden age in this country. A golden age of white male supremacy. I have to agree.”

THIS!  Wonderful point.   Agh!  Don’t get me started. Well, too late, I can’t resist.

World War II is an area of military history in which there is one of the widest gulfs between the approach and understanding of popular myth about the war and scholarly military history.

As for what you say about the issue of people of color under arms in World War II — Nowadays you’ll get something on African-Americans in World War II, but it’s the same stuff over and over again and it gets a little superficialized.  It’s like somebody thinks they should get their diversity-cookie because they made another show about the Tuskegee Airmen.  Look, I’m as much a fan as the Tuskegee Airmen as anyone.  Make a show about non-white-male fighter pilots and I’m all-in. I’m just frustrated by what I see as sacrificing a pursuit of an understanding of the magnitude of World War II for the same narrowly-focused interests.

The reality is much wider.  Heck, just *start* with other peoples of the African diaspora:

Afro-Caribbean peoples’ participation in World War II (in both U.S. forces and in British Empire forces)

Brazil in World War II – the Brazilian Expeditionary Force included people of color as one might guess.

Heck, if you can find one person in the U.S. who has even heard of that outside of the academic specialists or veterans who remember them from Italy, I’d be flabbergasted.  But there is a whole bunch published on them.

French colonial troops in World War II – Huge area of historiography, especially on the issue of the relationship between West African fighting men’s experiences and the post-war independence movements.

Africans from Kenya, Tanganyika and Uganda – there were several excellent panels at the Society for Military History Conference in recent years with new research on the lives and experiences of East African men in the British colonial forces in World War II – especially regarding how they experienced and perceived Burma, where they fought.

Other peoples of color on the Allied side in World War II:

New Zealand’s Maori units – plenty written on them in English, but you’re lucky if people in the U.S. know or care about even white New Zealanders’ achievements.

None of this even gets into Southeast Asians contributions to fighting the Axis.  I won’t even get started with the Indian army.
 
American willful ignorance about the USSR’s contribution to the Allied victory is so clichéd it’s almost laughable.   Nobody in the scholarly world has tolerated it since the end of the Cold War; the best place to started is David Glantz’s and Jonathan M. House’s When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (Lawrence: University of Kansas Press, 1995)  Yet there is SO MUCH more – a lot of it written by Glantz and House.  

Just as Civil War scholars fight an uphill battle in constantly reemphasizing to much of the public that the American Civil War was definitely, certainly and indisputably about slavery and not some abstract notion of “states rights”, World War II scholars have to fight the uphill battle of emphasizing that the Nazi war machine was defeated by the Red Army.  Period.   Sure, it’s not like the rest of us didn’t fight hard, valiantly and die to help.  It’s not like, say, D-Day and the Normandy campaign didn’t matter. Of course it did.  Even Zhukov himself said very clearly, yes, our allies helped and their contribution was critical.  But let’s not fool ourselves on where the bulk of the effort and achievement lay.   Sure, the whole thing is complicated by the fact that the USSR spent the first two years more or less helping Hitler.  And Poles are right to hold the USSR historically accountable for what it did to Poland.

But the armed forces of the largest communist state in the world made the biggest contribution to beating the Nazis.

One other matter about the USSR in World War II: if people in the U.S. know ANYTHING about it they tend to equate the RKKA (Red Army) to just Russians.  There’s a whole burgeoning historiography on the non-Russophone troops of the RKKA.

Today WWII veterans in Central Asian countries, what few survive, are almost forgotten.

But the Soviet victory wasn’t an exclusively Russian victory, it was a victory of Kazakhs, Tadjiks, Uzbeks, peoples of other Central Asian countries, men and women from the Caucuses and beyond.  One of the men in the famous Flag over the Reichstag photograph is from Dagestan, I think.

Now if you REALLY want an area that’s forgotten it’s the experiences and contributions of some of the countries of southeastern Europe after they changed sides – especially Bulgaria and Romania. People outside those two countries usually don’t know or care that they fought in World War II AT ALL, much less that they fought on both sides.  When Bulgaria changed sides in September 1944 it’s not like they were just kind of “ehhh…” and half-hearted about it because the Soviets forced them.   I mean, as of early 1945 Bulgaria had over 100,000 people under arms (not sure how many men and how many women), but it was several divisions worth plus corps troops, etc. – and it’s not like the war was all but over.  Those battles up in Hungary in early 1945 were bitter, hard fought and ferocious.  Bulgarians fought hard and died to help destroy fascism. 

One last rant:

I mentioned an affinity for studies of non-white-male fighter pilots.  I’ve mentioned them before, but the Soviet women of the 586th IAP (Fighter Regiment), PVO, like Katya Budanova and Lidya Litvyak are my favorites.  Say “Russian women aviators in World War II” in feminist venues and so often it’s just “oh yes, the Night Witches!”and then nothing else.  Again, yes, no one’s a bigger fan.  Brave women to fly PO-2’s *anyway*.  But, come on, what in the popular memory modern warfare has more mystique than the trope of the dashing fighter pilot?  If you want to use history to bust patriarchy, please, consider giving a shout to the 586th.  Feel free also to burst racist bubbles not just with the Tuskegee Airmen but with the Mexican Expeditionary Air Force. There was a journal article in them in the Journal of Military History about 10-15 years ago.   Will get the citation when I’m done with class tomorrow if anyone cares.

OK, done. Thanks for allowing the long rant-screed. Sorry for any typos I missed.

Molloy, Moran, Malone
Molloy, Moran, Malone
4 years ago

Troubelle: I don’t love how you phrased that, as I am not an ancillary character in a pulp novel, or the giver of a side quest in a video-game or something. But I’m pretty sure that I get why you did, and it’s okay. I’m not trying to shame you or call you out; I just thought it best to let you know that your comment made me feel…not great. I’m sure it was unintentional, I won’t hold it against you, and, unless you want to, we needn’t discuss it at all.

Yes, MMM is a perfectly fine abbreviation. And I, too, was surprised by how many transfolks there are in these parts. It was a moderately significant factor in my decision to start joining the conversations, even.
And by the by, is Troubelle an acceptable way to refer to you?

Misophistry: That really warms my heart, hearing how empowering and validating your job can be. I hope that at some point in the nebulous future, I’ll be able to glean similarly positive feelings from that kind of interaction, instead of feeling queasy-anxious-scared-thrilled-disbelieving-liberated-vulnerable. Which is how I feel when I feel eyes on me outside of my apartment, the lab, and various doctor’s appointments.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ pavlov’s house

I mentioned an affinity for studies of non-white-male fighter pilots.

One of my favourite wartime facts is that a Spitfire pilot was more likely to have a Punjabi accent than a public school one. That’s because, contrary to what you see in films, most Spitfire pilots came from working class backgrounds, and also there were a lot of Spitfires operating out of India.

http://i.imgur.com/900vAX0.jpg

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Weird Eddie, others:
I remember training in Aiki-jujutsu back in University. One of the first five techniques we learned was basically a standard judo hip-throw: bend over, roll the (likely charging) attacker back across your hips, and slam the target down on the other side.

Needless to say, this was a technique which rewarded the lower centre of balance. The 4’6″ young woman could easily toss the 6’4″ man who weighed at least twice what she did. The other way around… well, he had to actually lift her, so it was a lot more effort on his part, while she only had to pretty much trip him and direct the fall.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

@Alan

I love that! I bet there’s more stuff published on that than the narrow-minded people realize too.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ leo

Thanks for that. Again, that’s the sort of insights I’m after.

I’m assuming they’re not expecting it to get to the point of invasion,

You might find this interesting:

http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2017/06/at-them-girls-how-the-amazon-defence-corps-trained-to-take-on-nazi-invaders/

Quite a few women went through the regular Commando course anyway as it was taught to SOE agents.

As for SD and people with disabilities, there’s quite a bit of work being done in that regard. Unfortunately people with disabilities are far from immune to assault. Ironically having a stick with you can be an advantage. Sticks have always had a role in combat. Whether that’s all that Escrima stuff or just batons. So there’s plenty of stick based SD techniques that can compensate to an extent for lack of mobility.

(The Bartitsu enthusiasts are also big on sticks and canes.)

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@MMM

Apologies! Sorry, it’s something of a stock phrase for me. (Besides, NPCs in real life are few and far between and will be until AI gets better.) I’ll not use similar terms towards you from now on.

And yes, Troubelle is the abridged moniker. A lot of us add stuff to our nym based on various things–Moonbeam Malcontent just sounded cool (Axe can back me up on this) and the Bard thing…well, check the most recent thread. I like to write songs. (Others get their bits from their own funny posts, unintentionally hilarious terms used by those in articles or by trolls, or…whatever else.)

Also, re: trans people on here: I know that Virgin Mary is transitioning to masculine nonbinary (or, er…something to that effect–I forget their precise words), and I myself am genderqueer. There’s a lot more trans women than other peeps under the trans umbrella posting here, though (unless I missed a lot of memos). Hell, one of us, Ooglyboggles (the one with the cat-plant in a pot avatar) came to terms with it, like…less than a week ago.

So yeah! Sorry about the bump, and you’re not alone on here at all!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ pavlov’s house

This might amuse you. The BNP, a racist political party here, had a campaign against all those pesky foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs. They used this poster, as an iconic symbol of Britishness.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/20/article-1221619-06E41C72000005DC-462_634x437.jpg

Military aviation experts took great delight in pointing out that that particular Spitfire is from an RAF squadron comprised entirely of Polish pilots.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

@Alan

It does….especially since the Polish contribution to the Battle of Britain is well-known enough that it even filters down to the pop-history level occasionally.

Molloy, Moran, Malone
Molloy, Moran, Malone
4 years ago

No worries! I seriously appreciate you responding at all, let alone actually apologizing. Not much rarer than a sincere apology in the wild on the internet.

Yeah, I’ve seen people with little poetic snippets from this misogynist or that MGTOW (would it be MGHIW in the singular?). I just don’t know the etiquette, which can be tricky to judge; especially, believe it or not, when entering a relatively small, tight-knit, online community that’s been around for a long time enough time that the regular people have really gotten to know one another.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome and the information and such.

eli
eli
4 years ago

What I’m especially after is any commentary about how women are portrayed in the manual; do any of the scenarios sound familiar; is it anachronistic or would it still stand up as a contemporary release? All that sort of contextual stuff.

Certainly not so many people walk around carrying full-sized umbrellas, matches OR lighters. I’d think an attack would feature someone asking something related to a phone instead of asking for a light.

TW: description of assault and defense

I was hoisted off the ground from behind by my elbows once by a much larger stronger man. He wasn’t trying to attack me per se, just trying to prevent me from leaving a party. Long story. He was wasted and thought I was too and thought he was doing me a favor keeping me from getting behind the wheel on a cop-heavy holiday weekend.

I really did need to leave, however. And I couldn’t get any purchase or leverage, hanging suspended above the ground. I did have a thermos of freshly brewed coffee and was able to uncap the thing and warned him, counted down, and then tossed the contents in the general direction of his face. It worked but it splashed all over me too.

If he’d been really determined to hurt me, I don’t think I would have been able to do a damn thing.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I just don’t know the etiquette, which can be tricky to judge; especially, believe it or not, when entering a relatively small, tight-knit, online community that’s been around for a long time enough time that the regular people have really gotten to know one another.

There’s no real etiquette here around nyms. Obviously trolls try to play around with people’s names in a grade-school fashion, but if you’re posting in good faith and you shorten a long nym, it’s all good.

Generally this community is forgiving of mistakes so long as one doesn’t double-down, so don’t be afraid of the etiquette here. Most of it is common-sense, and what isn’t is listed in the commenting policy. I’m sure you’ll be fine.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@MMM

While I’ve become aware of a few schisms in our past, they aren’t dreadfully common in my experience. Maybe…once every few months, shit hits the fan and a long-timer takes a powder. It’s sad, but at the same time, for something online, that’s a pretty low turnover rate. And, with few exceptions, our regulars aren’t assholes to each other or legitimate newbies. (Obvious trolls, of course, are fair game as long as comments policy is followed.)

That said, just follow comments policy and don’t be a turd in general and you should be good!

Molloy, Moran, Malone
Molloy, Moran, Malone
4 years ago

Understood. Sorry for diverting the conversation away from what always deserves more attention: heaping scorn on goddamn Nazis, and praise on their foes, so long as those foes aren’t terrible themselves.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

Speaking of nyms, I thought mine would be pretty obvious as an anti-fascist historical reference. Once last year though in a comment thread about conscription somebody (don’t remember the nym, but it wasn’t familiar) got all ‘splainy citing “Pentagon doctrine…” and so forth in a way that didn’t seem, to me at least, to be validated by the major published scholarly works on compulsory military service in U.S. history. I replied to that effect and an earful as if a few thought I was some kind of right-wing MRA troll, and I was kind of shocked given the nym I used. But it died down, I let it go as did the other person, and I’ve enjoyed the conversation here always.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ eli

Sorry to hear about your experience, but once again, thanks for that commentary. This is all very helpful for me.

I was hoisted off the ground from behind by my elbows

It’s hard to describe in words but there is a way of avoiding being picked up. It’s handy if someone tries to carry you somewhere.

Imagine you’re in front of the assailant. Wrap your lower right (or left) leg behind the attacker’s right (or left) leg. You basically want the front bit of your ankle pressing against the lower part of the attacker’s calf/achilles tendon. Press in so you’re lower leg is wrapped around his leg as tight as possible. Then you can’t be picked up or carried.

Then you need to escape his grip. There are a number of options depending on how he’s grabbing you. Rear headbutt to face if possible. If his arms are around your waist with your hands free you can break or twist his fingers. If your arms are pinned, jerk your butt back as hard as possible to create a gap, then rotate side to side as quickly as possible and try to get your elbows into his ribs. Scraping the side of your foot down his shin and carrying through to stomp on his foot also helps.

If you can find a willing volunteer it’s easier to understand if you try it.

Hope you’ll never need to know this again, but just in case.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

@Molloy, Moran, Malone

“heaping scorn on goddamn Nazis, and praise on their foes, so long as those foes aren’t terrible themselves.”

I struggle to remind myself not to let admiration for Russians’ and others Soviet people’s achievements turn into excusing or ignoring the horrible things that Soviet authorities also did. It’s hard. The past is complicated.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
4 years ago

Sweet Christmas! These fucknuggets seriously haven’t sharpened their tactics since I made #yourslipisshowing. I’d laugh, but I think I’m sad.

Molloy, Moran, Malone
Molloy, Moran, Malone
4 years ago

Pavlovs House: I quite agree about the Russians circa WWII, and all those who found themselves in the Soviet Sphere, who, incidentally, I was not intentionally attempting to reference in my comment. Although of course with a second’s thought I can see now how much more straightforward and sensible that interpretation is than the one I had intended, which was present-day right-wing groups, specifically (nominally, at least) those members of the GOP establishment.

Sleep deprivation: it leads to illogical antecedents.

Alan, would you have any recommendations for somebody who’s tall, but skeletal thin, with almost no muscle?
TW: physical and sexual assault

The long and short of it is, while returning drunk from a club/bar in a foreign nation I had only arrived in two days before, I walked in the wrong direction, ended up in one of the many parts of the city that had been badly damaged by earthquakes, which meant spotty street lights (at best), and close to absolutely no people. This was especially true at I think 2 or 3 AM on a Sunday. A pair of guys who I had briefly interacted with in the club took advantage of my almost complete vulnerability. After leaving the club and walking opposite to me for quite some time, one of them crossed the street and started a conversation. I hadn’t noticed until that moment that anyone was behind me at all until then (I was listening to music and trying to work out how to get to the hotel on foot with all the closed streets), so I was that sort of dully surprised in that drunk way, until, after a while, I realized the second guy had seriously caught up, and was now maybe one or two paces behind me.

TW: ASSAULT, SEXUAL VIOLENCE By the time the reality of what was happening started to sink in, the one behind me shoved me from behind, hard, and I slammed into the ground. I was wearing heels and I was intoxicated, I had no chance. When I tried to get up, they kicked me until I stopped trying, one of them twisted my arm behind my back, forced me up, and into one of the many buildings that had been deemed unfit for occupancy because of the quake.

I was taller than both these guys, but honestly; even if I was as sober as a judge, I just don’t think 6’2, 135 pounds really doesn’t seem to be ideal for the sort of woman-focused self-defense from the pamphlet you posted. Which I don’t mean as any sort of a criticism, either of you (of course) or of the booklet; most women, it goes without saying, don’t have anything remotely resembling my body type. it’s not like I expect to be catered to, let alone in WWII-era illustrated guides. I guess I’m worried that virtually any attacker could throw me around and pummel me into submission as easily as those two could, even a lone one. I know, situational awareness. And I’m sure I could effectively use my long limbs to my advantage in order to deal out some righteous vengeance on anyone who tried anything. But I keep getting flashes of what it was like suddenly finding myself falling, and realizing that I couldn’t do absolutely anything to stop those men from violating me. Do you know about ways to turn the tables if you’ve already been knocked down? What about if somebody has your arm behind your back like that?

I don’t mean to bother you, or assail you with questions. Of course it’s not your job to answer the questions of every sad, damaged person whose spheres overlap with yours in some way. I’m just…I don’t know, excited kind of? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever even considered learning stuff like this before. I just…cloistered myself. That was my solution, and it ended up consuming close to everything in my life.

When I’m better enough that I can bring myself to go out to things like that, I’m going to take a self defense class. I’m in a big enough city that there’s probably even one geared towards trans women.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
4 years ago

One of the he reasons I stick around here and mostly lurk: all sorts of interesting things can be learned here in the comments section. Plus lots of gifs to be ganked…. XD

(Someone tell me there’s some historians someplace getting the stories of the Navajo Wind Talkers down before it’s too late. That was always something I found interesting, for some reason.)

Tov01
Tov01
4 years ago

It always amazes me that the never seem to remember that we can reed 4chan, too.

E. Oxenford
E. Oxenford
4 years ago

I believe you may be missing the point, which is that Antifa has no principled way to oppose punching “Nazis” just because they’re women.

If it’s OK to punch Nazis, it’s OK to punch women for being Nazis. It’s arguably required.

Sound ridiculous? It should. So maybe it’s time to lay off the “it’s OK to punch Nazis” routine.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@Alan
I like how into it the Sikh guy is in the plane pic. Everyone else just chillin, and he’s tryna get discovered. Start is modelling career. Love that guy now 😁

@Troubelle

Moonbeam Malcontent just sounded cool (Axe can back me up on this)

What was the other option? Sunshine… something or other?

Jeyne Doe
Jeyne Doe
4 years ago

It always amazes me that the never seem to remember that we can reed 4chan, too.

This! In Minneapolis, a group of racist terrorists made a plan on 4chan (which they carried out) to provoke black men at a protest, shoot them, and claim self defense. It apparently didn’t occur to them that prosecutors would be able to find records of their conversation. The jury didn’t believe their “We feared for our lives” garbage, and they are now in prison.

IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@Molly, Moran, Malone

I just don’t think 6’2, 135 pounds really doesn’t seem to be ideal for the sort of woman-focused self-defense from the pamphlet you posted

Speaking as a 6’6, 165 pound woman, I just want to signal boost this point. I’m probably not going to be shorter than my attackers.

I have a brother who used to hit me, and shove me against walls, and other shit. He was huge into martial arts. I tried taking a self-defense course once, but I just couldn’t handle it. I kept remembering things I was trying to suppress.

I also want to say that I empathize with your story. My story is different, but it’s similar in that several people got away with hurting me, and I reacted by hiding away from the world.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
4 years ago

@Axe

I barely remember…

misophistry
misophistry
4 years ago

@E. Oxenford No that isn’t the point at all. Did you read the OP?

It is a point, but not the one we are discussing here. Most people here are fairly non-violent and would only punch a nazi if the nazi came at ’em, at which point their gender matters less. I didn’t actually see any women in the nazi crowd at charlottesville.

The point here is that 4chan are starting an obvious smear campaign. Do you want to help them?

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@Molly, Moran, Malone
Nothing specific or useful from me, but warm welcomes and 💜🖤💙

@Still Fiqah
That was you? Squeeeeeeeee

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I believe you may be missing the point

You believe in an incorrect position.

which is that Antifa has no principled way to oppose punching “Nazis” just because they’re women.

The point is that 4chan is trying to paint antifa as domestic abusers. Those are domestic abuse poster images being used. Did you miss that? Or do you just not care because you have an axe to grind with antifa?

Sound ridiculous? It should. So maybe it’s time to lay off the “it’s OK to punch Nazis” routine.

You can start a debate about whether it is okay to punch Nazis, but you need to get off your high horse re: your position in that debate. You are not automatically correct because 4chan and reasons. Your side in that debate is not the morally righteous one by default. You need to demonstrate that it is.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ molly moran malone (& ignore sandra)

Gawd, sorry to hear about that. I wish I could say I’m shocked, but unfortunatly it’s an experience I’ve heard so many times. Although I suppose there’s a selection bias thing there with the self defence instruction.

would you have any recommendations for somebody who’s tall, but skeletal thin, with almost no muscle?

The short answer is ‘yes’; but when you’ve been around here a bit longer you’ll notice that short answers aren’t really my thing. 🙂

Firstly let me introduce you to what we call “the hierarchy of skills” when it comes to self defence. That is to say, the key aspects in decreasing order of importance.

Strategic awareness – that’s an understanding of how assaults occur generally, the techniques predators use, situations to be wary of etc.

Tactical awareness – that’s how to spot when the particular circumstances you are in at a given time may be developing into a risk.

Psychological awareness – that’s understanding how your mind may work when you’re in a stressful situation, and perhaps most importantly learning how to avoid the “freeze” instinct.

Technical ability – that’s knowing all the actual self defence moves and how to fight back.

Physical ability – not sure that’s actually a skill except maybe in relation to fitness training perhaps, but it’s mainly about body type. Are you big, small, fast, slow, able bodied etc.

You’ll note that body type is the least important factor. Fitness isn’t even that important. Generally with self defence you want the encounter to be over within a matter of seconds. We’re not training you for competition. There are no rules in the street as the cliche goes. So decent self defence will focus on your particular attributes. If you’re big then we might exploit your power, if you’re small then we might concentrate on speed, if you’re lanky then we may focus on ‘range’ etc.

But as Muhammed Ali used to say about boxing, the most important muscle is the brain. I’m not suggesting unskilled opponents present no danger, far from it; however generally speaking proper training can equalise and often extinguish any physical advantages your opponent may have.

So that’s the generalities. In your specific case it sounds like you may want to exploit your likely range advantage for example. If you can strike or kick someone at a range where they can’t reach you, then it doesn’t really matter how strong they are (as proved by every naval battle ever).

If you want to PM me via David I’d be happy to discuss all your available options. What I can say, and I hope this reassures you a bit, is that two of our favourite examples of women successfully using self defence involved two of our slightest built students. (One is a literal Vogue model, and they’re not exactly known for their bulk). They proved how effective elbows and knees are. They didn’t put a lot of power behind those, but if you know how and when to target it doesn’t really matter. There’s a nice Bruce Lee quote somewhere about how a baby’s thumb is stronger than the biggest guy’s eyeball, as anyone who’s changed a nappy knows.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ axe

Start is modelling career

He is rather dapper isn’t he?

His name is M(a/o)hinder Singh Pujji. He won just about every medal going. After the war he set a few air race records and then became an airline pilot. He moved to London and there’s a rather nice statue of him (still looking very dashing) in Gravesend.
comment image

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ molly moran malone

Sorry, despite the lengthy tome I didn’t address some of your specific questions.

What about if somebody has your arm behind your back like that?

Really it’s best to discuss this with an instructor. There are various solutions; and as we always say “The best technique is the one that works for you”. This is an amusing introduction by one of our more eccentric mates. He really does know what he’s talking about though.

https://youtu.be/sMC_uLjzEZ0

Do you know about ways to turn the tables if you’ve already been knocked down?

Again yes. But also again, it’s something best discussed with an instructor. The ground is a really bad place to be, so self defence systems (as opposed to sporting martial arts) concentrate on getting back up as quickly as possible. If you haven’t been pinned down yet then it’s basically, keep your feet between you and your attacker if possible (can be difficult if multiple attackers), stamp at his knees or shins and as soon as he’s momentarily distracted get back on your feet. There is a technique for hooking one of your feet around the back of his ankle and stomp kicking through his kneecap with your other foot. That can be very effective; but none of these techniques make you invulnerable, it’s just a percentage game. It’s a lot of fun learning though and it does increase the odds a bit if the worst happens. Feel free to get in touch, I’m always happy to bang on about this sort of thing.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
4 years ago

@Pavlov’s House

Just out of curiosity, how would you characterize the 1970s British documentary series “World At War”? I’m hardly an expert, but I take a keen interest in military history and I found that to be one of the best well-rounded doc series on World War II, particularly for the sheer amount of archival footage, but also for the fact that it was filmed when some of the key figures were still alive. Granted, being British, it’s got a noticeable bias towards events affecting the British forces, but it had interviews with Traudl Junge and Karl Donitz and Albert Speer along with Arthur Harris, Jimmy Stewart, Lord Montbatten, Mark Clark… a veritable Who’s-Who of the conflict intermixed with civilians and military personnel alike who were there on the ground.

The reason that I bring it up is that my recent trip to Nova Scotia brought to mind another seldom-discussed aspect of the war. The HMCS Sackville is preserved in Halifax Harbour as a museum ship to Canada’s naval history.
comment image

The Sackville is the last of the Flower-class corvettes, which served as escorts for merchant vessels crossing the Atlantic, and it was in the World At War doc episode “Wolfpack” that first gave me the appreciation for just how crucial that merchant fleet was. One thing that bothers me about popular portrayals of U-Boats (and this actually goes for the age of sail portrayals like the film Master and Commander), is that they’re often depicted as isolated one-to-one combatants against an enemy vessel, probably for both dramatic and budgetary reasons. The reality is that they were group hunters that preyed upon unarmed merchant vessels, torpedoing a stray ship in the convoy and then vanishing into the seas to strike again before their escorts could depth-charge them. The gap in radar coverage allowed them to rule the open ocean unchallenged for years, until technology closed that gap and left the subs open to aerial bombardment.

But when you see the Sackville, one of the sheepdogs that crossed the ocean dozens of times protecting its flock, you really get a sense of how hard a life it was to serve on one of those ships. Cramped quarters, no showers, the bridge in 1942 was completely open to the North Atlantic weather, which was merely pouring rain on a good day… winter meant blowing snow and thick ice covering every exposed piece of metal. But each and every convoy brought weapons, food, oil, clothing… every soldier depicted in movies like Saving Private Ryan only had a gun in their hand and clothes on their back because of the merchant navy risking storms and those wolfpacks to deliver them across the Atlantic ocean, and they only survived because of the keen seamanship and bravery of the 18-year-old sailors on corvettes like the Sackville.

And as my tour guide was quick to point out… who built the Sackville? Veterans Affairs Canada kept poor records during WWII, but it’s a sure bet that plenty of women worked as welders, riveters, carpenters… it’s the ladies we have to thank for those 70-year-old welds in the Sackville‘s engine room holding up so well. So every time I see that “women never built anything” garbage misogynists spew, I just toss ’em that picture up there. Women built that thing that supplied the war in Europe.

A bit of an off-topic rant, but something I think society needs to recognize more.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ gussie jives

“women never built anything”

Leeds/Bradford airport used to be an Avro factory. That’s the company that built the Lancaster bomber. Here’s a rare picture of the workforce.

http://i.imgur.com/eBAsIqN.jpg

Dodom
Dodom
4 years ago

63% of white men voted for Trump, but the Right is always trying to hide behind the women!

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
4 years ago

Pavlov’s house:

Now if you REALLY want an area that’s forgotten it’s the experiences and contributions of some of the countries of southeastern Europe after they changed sides – especially Bulgaria and Romania. People outside those two countries usually don’t know or care that they fought in World War II AT ALL, much less that they fought on both sides. When Bulgaria changed sides in September 1944 it’s not like they were just kind of “ehhh…” and half-hearted about it because the Soviets forced them. I mean, as of early 1945 Bulgaria had over 100,000 people under arms (not sure how many men and how many women), but it was several divisions worth plus corps troops, etc. – and it’s not like the war was all but over. Those battles up in Hungary in early 1945 were bitter, hard fought and ferocious. Bulgarians fought hard and died to help destroy fascism.

Now I’m kinda curious on how this compares to Finland, which also fought on both sides in 1941-45.

I have this vague impression that countries such as Romania and Bulgaria were nondemocratic and politically divided between pro-German and pro-USSR factions, so a change in leadership could easily turn their war effort from one way to another. Did they switch sides because their leadership was replaced by a coup or by the occupying Soviets, or because existing leaders didn’t want to be stuck on the losing side?

In Finland’s case it was definitely the latter. Also, Finland was democratic and (in my perception) more politically unified and not very eager to fight for either fascism or communism. We fought hard against the USSR, mainly for national self-interest reasons, and our final fight against Germany was a relatively half-hearted effort mainly to appease the USSR.

I feel that between Germany and USSR you couldn’t really defend freedom on either side – except that by 1944 it turned out that German defeat could restore freedom in Western Europe. Finland didn’t want to sacrifice too many lives for that cause, and I’m frankly curious if Bulgaria did.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
4 years ago

Leeds/Bradford airport used to be an Avro factory. That’s the company that built the Lancaster bomber. Here’s a rare picture of the workforce.

That’s the company that built the Arrow, too!

comment image

But that’s exactly it. Hell, more than just building these ships, plenty of women served aboard ocean-going vessels as stewards and records show several amongst the war dead from U-Boat attacks. They also had to deliver those planes to their air bases in Europe (Marion Orr was a celebrated Canadian aviation pioneer who opened a flight school after serving during the war flying Spitfires, Lancasters and 13 other craft across the Atlantic.)

Logistics is one of those things that just gets so easily overlooked, but it’s what keeps an army functional.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
4 years ago

@Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy – Yup! And every time those Chan dingleberries do something “new,” it’s the same ole raggedy two-step: Transparent, sophomoric, WILDLY over-estimating the cleverness of the “operation” (and oh my God they REALLY talk this way) and insultingly under-estimating the intelligence of their targets. And always always ALWAYS pretending to be people they’re not, which has got to be some kinda psychological indicator of self-loathing. I really would laugh if it weren’t sad.

Still Fiqah
Still Fiqah
4 years ago

Also, we never ever ever have to justify punching folks who attack us with bats, kill and maim us with cars, and whose “differing political opinions” include enthusiastic implementation of GENOCIDE. For justice, for righteousness, for cardio – punch EVERY Nazi.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
4 years ago

just a test – I tried posting a thing before and it didn’t work! Am I banz0rd?

EDIT – yaaay

I wrote a reply to the Trojan Troll in another thread and it is caught in moderation, and I have no idea why. Did … did I do a bad thing? :C

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Alan:

I’m not suggesting unskilled opponents present no danger, far from it;

There’s always Mark Twain’s quote on that:

…there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn’t need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn’t do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn’t prepared for him.

Unskilled opponents can be dangerous just through sheer unpredictability.

And with regards to logistics and Napoleon… well, Napoleon is regarded as being responsible for the development of canned foods, due to his offering a pretty large reward for methods to preserve food that could then be carried by an army. Yeah, logistics was a big thing for him.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
4 years ago

One of the things I’ve realized from my reading about WWII is how utterly devastated eastern Europe was by the end. First the German army goes east, years of combat ensue, then they retreat followed by the Soviet army. I’m surprised there was a building standing between Stalingrad and Berlin.
Then the various ‘population exchanges’, displaced person camps, reprisals and et cetera. No wonder the postwar consensus was ‘Let’s not do this again, okay?’, which is what inspired the EU.

I believe that many Americans have only the foggiest idea of what having a war take place in your own territory means, since it hasn’t really happened to us since the War of Southern Treason. *Everybody* suffers, not just the fraction of the able bodied adult male population actually in uniform.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ jenora

food that could then be carried by an army

Well he did of course say “an army marches on its stomach”. I’ve tried that though and I’d definitely recommend you stick with feet.

http://i.imgur.com/jGAM3hx.jpg

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Robert Walker-Smith:
I was actually in Warsaw for a couple of weeks back in 1986.

One of the buildings in the ‘old town’ was a museum, which had a fairly large section on WWII; I think it was only about three storeys tall, and not a large building. One of the exhibits was a line drawn in chalk along the brick work of the wall on the inside of the building, mostly on the first floor though up to the second floor in a few places, and along ceilings as well.

We were told when we came in that the line signified how much of the building had survived WWII. That rather drove things home.

Warsaw was one of the world’s oldest walled cities, several centuries old, and was long one of the major cultural and trading centres of Eastern Europe. And according to Wikipedia, 85% of the buildings were in ruins after WWII. They know exactly what it’s like to be in the middle of the battleground.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
4 years ago

Just in case people respond to my previous comment, I have to go offline until Sunday. Sorry.

Good luck for the Gulf coast.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
4 years ago

@Everyone

Good grief, some *excellent* military history comment from many folks today….will reply when I get home.

RE: buildings…never been to Volgagrad but I think my namesake is still a residential apartment building with part of one of the original brick exterior walls from

Excellent points re: Flower class corvettes, logistics in general, Romania and Bulgaria having different experiences from Finland, women building and flying Lancasters, etc.

Hope to talk more soon….

One day I want to try to compute from the best sources available as accurate an estimate as possible of the total number of men and women under arms against the Axis as of some late-war date, say maybe Feb. 1945 (near end but still lots of hard fighting ahead) AND all the languages spoken.

Lots of women in combattant roles in resistance, partisan and guerrilla forces by the way…

Tov01
Tov01
4 years ago

@Robert Walker-Smith

the War of Southern Treason

Excuse me while I steal this.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
4 years ago

Tov01 – use freely, it’s open source.

Molloy, Moran, Malone
Molloy, Moran, Malone
4 years ago

@Alan–Thanks for everything; it was both reassuring and informative, and, once I find myself in a position where I feel capable of doing so, I’ll direct my specific questions towards an instructor. But what you told me in itself was helpful.

I appreciate the offer, but PMing and emails are areas of significant difficulty for me. Have been since the doxxing, shockingly enough. But again, thank you.

@IgnoreSandra- First off, I really appreciate the support and empathy and all. Secondly, it’s always great seeing other tall women, no matter their bodily configuration, etc. It’s rare for me to meet women who are taller than me. Since I started transitioning the first time, seeing taller women feels to me like some sort of validation that height alone isn’t enough to instantly disqualify me from getting accepted while living, looking, and presenting how the way I do. Silly? Perhaps.

My partner, without whom I most certainly wouldn’t have been able to get through the past few years, is significantly taller than me, too. Not quite your height, but close, and she gets stopped all the time by other (frequently tall) ladies for having the “courage” to wear heels. Her entire family is gigantic: her brothers and dad are all in the 6’8-7’0 range, her mom was over six feet herself, etc. I had never in my LIFE felt short until I went over there for dinner the first time.