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White supremacists encouraged by Trump’s “many sides” comments on #Charlottesville terror

Trump commenting on Charlottesville earlier today

By David Futrelle

Donald Trump will blithely threaten nuclear war in hair-raising off-the-cuff remarks. But his milquetoast statement on Charlottesville today — referring vaguely to violence “on many sides” — was clearly carefully scripted, seemingly to avoid offending the white supremacists who have been some of his most fervent supporters.

Whatever his intent, White supremacists are cheering his evasive non-response as a sign that “he loves us all.”

And to Richard Spencer, and “Baked Alaska,” and all the other Nazis and quasi-Nazis and “oh-no-I’m-not-a-Nazi”s who marched in Charlottesville.

The closest Trump came to condemning the terrorism was this bizarre tweet, posted late in the day.

BEST FUCKING REGARDS!?

Not that any of this should be a shock at this point, given that during his campaign Trump deliberately and repeatedly incited his supporters to attack those protesting him.

And he’s not the only one to encourage violence. One commenter reminded us that right-wing columnist and University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds literally urged drivers to plow into Black Lives Matter protesters in a tweet last year

https://twitter.com/bax_books/status/896443189669666816

None of this bodes well for the future.

Sadly, I think this is almost certainly true.

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Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
3 years ago

@numerobis

Trust more around middle-agers and kids, get out when it’s done, beware the sunset. Got it.

@Surplus

I just hope my generation isn’t systematically slaughtered. For that matter, I hope we’re able to stop systematic slaughter altogether.

Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
3 years ago

Granny Weatherwax in the Discworld books once said, loosely paraphrased, that the root of all sin and evil in the world is seeing people as things.

Pratchett, mayherestinpeace, was not wrong. These mangry white boys don’t see people, they see the Other. So it goes.

Even with my white privilege and my husband’s white male privilege, I’m scared as fuck. I want a world of happiness and inclusion, not one where you’re constantly looking around in fear that someone’s going to bring the hammer down on you for not acting the way *they* want you to act, and that’s when you’re of the *favored* class to begin with. It goes without saying the non favored would have it far worse.

I want happiness and vibrancy and a rainbow of understanding like in San Francisco, not the constipated, constricted stagnation seen in too many places in the Deep South or in other places in rural America. The first I feel safe and happy in. The second, far from it. But I’m scared beyond reason that the second view is winning. And it’s setting me into fight or flight mode, and I want to do… things to these facist fuckheads that would play right into their hands, just to get them to shut the fuck up.

Goddammit, I want to hide in bed again.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
3 years ago

Today I saw a mother and daughter walking their dog down the street. The little girl, about the same age as my granddaughter, had a witch’s hat on.

She was adorable.

In the midst of all of this ugliness, I saw this cute little girl with a witch’s hat on, and it made me smile. I have nothing more to add, but I am reminded that there is everday beauty all around, and I just saw one.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@Bananana:

I feel for you.

At the same time I can’t help noticing the irony, that to these fuckers it’s the other way around, the little whitebread town feels safe but they’d feel afraid and surrounded in San Francisco with all the rainbow of skin colors and gay people and whatnot. The power of propaganda…

Granny Weatherwax in the Discworld books once said, loosely paraphrased, that the root of all sin and evil in the world is seeing people as things.

Pratchett, mayherestinpeace, was not wrong.

Yep.

Aside: after he collaborated with science fiction author Stephen Baxter on some interesting stuff, I’m considering getting into Pratchett. But his body of work is intimidatingly huge. Any suggested starting point(s)?

Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
3 years ago

@Surplus

*hug*

Thank you. And yes, these assholes are cowards, but even cowards are incredibly dangerous in large numbers when they think they have support. I’m afraid something terrible’s going to happen because of these numpties before it gets better, not to say that it’s not already bad now. Mueller can’t move fast enough, but even then they STILL have decided that reality is optional to their world views.

And the thing is, even if I’m a white woman, I’m not their kind of white woman. I haven’t built my life around their approval and reinforcing their fragile self-esteem. Nor is my spouse their kind of white man. He has this thing where he thinks other skin colors, preferences, and lifestyles should be given equal thrift too and that I’m his partner, not his appliance. Doubtless he’d be discounted as a beta mangina cuck by these assholes for daring to care about other people and daring to care about more than being so afraid of the perceptions of other insecure mediocre men that he’ll put himself into their box for their approval. They might start at the gays and the Jews and the Muslims, but it sure as fuck isn’t going to stop there. Soon it would be anybody they don’t like or that disturbs them, and we’d be on the list.

And with Pratchett, I’d say Discworld as a whole can be gotten into pretty easily. The first few books of the series were kind of ‘eeehh’, but I’m trying to think about where he started to really feel his groove. I think either around ‘Mort’ or ‘Wyrd Sisters’ is when it stopped being a parody of fantasy tropes and instead more of a reflection of the world around us. And the thing about them all is that while they do have a chronology, I think you can hop in at any time in there and not lose much if any enjoyment or get too spoilered from reading them out of sync.

For the witches, I’d say “Wyrd Sisters” is a good starting point. For Vimes and the Night Watch “Guards! Guards!”. For Death, “Mort” is where it starts, and Susan Sto Helit in “Soul Music.” And there’s a lot of standalones in there too.

JS
JS
3 years ago

I really enjoyed Pratchett’s “The Truth”, partly because any novelist who titles a fiction novel “The Truth” has got to be confident.

I felt like it gave a very good whacking to fake news, and showed how real journalism should be done (albeit in a fantasy world).

Also, “Stop the press” has a different meaning when you’re moving it from one place to another.

Almost anything by Pratchett is good. Even “The Unadulterated Cat” which is rather hard to find these days.

The first “discworld”-ish novel he wrote is “The Light Fantastic”, which is much more science-fictiony than the rest of them, and he considered it a different world than the one in the rest.

“The Colour of Magic” is a fun read, featuring Rincewind the Wizzzard, and Twoflower the tourist.

One of his novels had “Not tested on animals. You’ll be the first.” as a cover blurb.

Ones I’ve re-read are “Making Money”, “Monstrous Regiment”, “Unseen Academicals”, “Raising Steam”, “Carpe Jugulum”, oh heck, I’ve re-read every damn thing he’s written, except maybe “The Long …” series by Baxter and Pratchett.

There’s even a series of “The Science of Discworld” novels which include real science and a lot of encouragement of rational thinking.

From all I could find out, he was a great person, and taken from us way too soon.

ETA: Almost forgot “Good Omens” by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. Pre-apocalyptic, very good, no time to describe.

Kimstu
Kimstu
3 years ago

@Axe:

Look, I’ve given some money to the ACLU. I don’t regret doing so in the slightest. Their work on the Muslim ban, frex, has been invaluable. But they can choose their fuckin cases. And they’ve chosen wrong sometimes. Most recently to murderous results. And that deserves all the criticism, and loss of donations, they’re getting.

Nah, I don’t think it makes sense to deflect blame onto the ACLU for murders and other violence committed by Nazis/white supremacists, just because the ACLU supports equal rights to free speech and public assembly even for loathsome shitweasels.

The shitweasels themselves are the ones who deserve every ounce of the condemnation justly incurred by their bigotry, hatred and violence.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

Thanks to various people for Pratchett recommendations. Upshot seems to be “start almost anywhere”.

Hold on, there’s one called “Good Omens” that is pre-apocalyptic? That seems … inconsistent. 🙂

Re: ACLU, free speech, &c: I’m wondering if that “peace treaty vs. moral precept” thing that’s been going the rounds lately applies to this as well, and free speech should not extend all the way to advocacy for restricting the speech, or other freedoms, of others. Most nations recognize exceptions for hate speech; this could be the way to put those on firmer footing, rationale-wise. Speech that is, overall, a net negative contributor to freedom.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

fricklefrackle

I refuse to take part in anything violent and if I might have to to make things better I’d rather just die, instead. I’ve always believed that people have the power to change things via the system.

Coupla things.

Join up with one of the Indivisible or other Resist! groups in your area. They are, after all, definitely focused on the political system and trying to change all sorts of things through the influence policy/ politicians and elect-legislate process. The other bonus is that you know that any protest or other action they undertake will be non-violent.

If you come across any artist (or guerilla knitting group) or cartoonist or anyone else who does the kind of work you like, put a few dollars or other support their way. Not having any talent of this kind myself, I feel obliged to do whatever I can to support people who can put out the message I’d like to do if only I knew how.

Kimstu
Kimstu
3 years ago

@SROBWE:

Re: ACLU, free speech, &c: I’m wondering if that “peace treaty vs. moral precept” thing that’s been going the rounds lately applies to this as well, and free speech should not extend all the way to advocacy for restricting the speech, or other freedoms, of others. Most nations recognize exceptions for hate speech; this could be the way to put those on firmer footing, rationale-wise. Speech that is, overall, a net negative contributor to freedom.

Where would we draw the line, though? What qualifies as hate speech and what doesn’t? For example, French courts recently upheld convictions of advocates for a political boycott of the state of Israel as criminals under French hate-speech laws:

The legislation means that what BDS activists regarded as political statements denouncing Israel’s violations of international law could be – and indeed were – treated by French courts as an “incitement” to hatred.

Especially with the right-wing authoritarians we’ve currently got in power, I really don’t think I want Congress and other legislatures making the calls about what Americans are allowed to say as protected “free speech” and what is forbidden as “incitement to hatred” or even “restricting the rights of others”.

Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
Banananana dakry: Fat, Short-Haired, and Deranged
3 years ago

@JS

Regarding the science fictiony ‘discworld’ novel in the different continuity, I think it was actually called “Strata”. “The Light Fantastic” is the second book in the Discworld series proper.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

kupo

Now his stance is a little different; he feels that a handful of assholes have poisoned the antifa movement, but he still feels like Nazis are worse beyond comparison, and that people who say “but antifa…” are supporting Nazis. But he compared current day antifa to the wonton destruction that took place during the WTO protests in 99.

I have a different view. I think the antifa “doctrine”, that the only thing nazis understand is violence, is an OutStanDing example of white privilege. Why don’t they emulate the non-violent resistance taught and practised by the 60s civil rights movement?

We know why. Black people then – and their white allies – were at serious risk of murder back then both by private citizens and by the police. More than a few were murdered. Congressman John Lewis is still with us by pure good luck rather than because of any common sense or restraint on the part of the cops who attacked him.

Antifa is mostly (entirely?) white as far as I can see. These people don’t have the bone-deep fear of generations of black people that going onto the streets could get them killed (and that no one would be held to account for it into the bargain).

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Surplus

Hold on, there’s one called “Good Omens” that is pre-apocalyptic? That seems … inconsistent.

That one is…meso-apocalyptic. It revolves around the apocalypse itself.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

I think MLK and Gandhi methods work best against an opponent that feels bound at least somewhat by the rule of law. Both were resisting government oppression. Antifa methods seem perhaps to be necessary when the opponent does not feel bound by the rule of law. Klansmen, skinheads, and other Nazoid groups operating outside of the law are their targets.

It’s worked in the past. Were it not for the Battle of Cable Street, the UK might have been part of the Axis during WW II.

On the other hand, one Nazis succeed in taking over a government, historically it’s required violence to stop them at that point as well, and much more of it than might have stopped them earlier.

Perhaps the distinction is that MLK and Gandhi were both basically fighting an occupation. There were lots of silent supporters around them, as well as the enemy trying to legitimate itself through law. In Nazi Germany, much of the (surviving and non-imprisoned) population was sympathetic to Nazism rather than to any resistance, necessitating violence; and at Cable Street the fascists were not acting under color of law, so protesters being law-abiding did not shield them or confer upon them any advantages beyond being able to claim the moral high ground.

But I’m interested to hear any other ideas as to why nonviolent methods work better in some cases, and not in others, involving opposing oppressive groups. (The only other one to immediately spring to my own mind is “maybe it’s just Nazism’s extreme nature that makes the difference”. Or maybe their reality distortion field leads to both. Perhaps Gandhi and MLK could avoid resorting to violence because their opponents had not become totally disconnected from all reason, whereas Nazi Germany and our current infestation of neo-Nazis and other Fox-watching goose-steppers have. In that case there may be no repudiation they understand other than fighting and losing.)

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Kimtsu

the ACLU supports equal rights to free speech and public assembly even for loathsome shitweasels

I support their free speech too. Theoretically. I’m not gonna fight for it tho. And i don’t think the ACLU ought to either. Choose better clients

The shitweasels themselves are the ones who deserve every ounce of the condemnation justly incurred by their bigotry, hatred and violence

Except no. Trump is to blame for emboldening them. Fascist outlets are to blame for radicalizing them. Online spaces are to blame for organizing and facilitating them. And the ACLU is to blame for defenfing them. It’s just a matter of working out percentages…

Grace
Grace
3 years ago

@Surplus

If the Discworld stuff seems intimidatingly sprawling, you might enjoy Pratchett’s “Johnny” books — “Only You Can Save Mankind”, “Johnny and the Dead”, and “Johnny and the Bomb” — which are fairly quick reads and not connected to his other series. They’re sort of a loose trilogy but each one stands on its own quite well, and they’re delightful books; I think perhaps they don’t get the attention they deserve because they get overshadowed by the Discworld stuff, which is brilliant and I love it, don’t get me wrong, but I feel like the Johnny series ought to be on bookstore shelves more often than I generally see it.

Kimstu
Kimstu
3 years ago

@Axe:

Trump is to blame for emboldening them.

Absolutely true, because Trump’s emboldening is itself an act of shitweaselry. The white supremacist/Nazi types are loathsome shitweasels, and Trump is a shitweasel for endorsing their agenda. No matter how hard he tries to preserve deniability with his sly wink-nudge dogwhistling.

@Axe:

Fascist outlets are to blame for radicalizing them.

Absolutely true, because pro-fascist radicalization is also in itself an act of shitweaselry.

@Axe:

And the ACLU is to blame for defen[d]ing them.

There I can’t agree with you. Imho defending constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties for everyone and anyone because that’s your fundamental institutional mission is not a shitweasel thing to do. Even if it sometimes ends up benefiting loathsome shitweasels as well as more admirable groups.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
3 years ago

(ETA: there probably should be a content warning here, but I’m not sure what kind of warning would fit. Besides saying the Stormer talking about a ‘post-wall’ woman.)

I glanced at that Stormer article that Sinkable John linked to. It was a “satire” of that ‘Five Things about Heather’ article someone posted a thread or two back. #1-3 of the ‘points’ were about Heather’s alleged worthlessness to society because 32, childless, and ‘too fat’ to get out of the way of the car like many of the other protesters did. Oh, and that most of society was happy she was killed in this ‘road rage’ incident because of old, fat, childless, and a drain on society.

#4 was about how the killer was essentially a ‘playa’ who rightfully didn’t give a ***k about the folks he ran down. Or something like that. Not going back to reread that point again.

#5 was a claim that the whole ‘road rage incident’ was sponsored by…Dodge Motors. No, seriously, they claimed that because a Dodge Charger was used to turn protesters into roadkill on the same day a Dodge-sponsored event with Roadkill in its name (this thing, I think:

http://www.enthusiastnetwork.com/roadkill-nights-powered-dodge-brings-legal-drag-racing-woodward-ave-m1-concourse-august-19/ )

took place, that the two are connected. And that Dodge Motors approved their car being used to kill people at Charlottesville.

Oi. >.<

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

That last is likely to get them sued. Which isn’t 1/1000000th of what they deserve…

Tosca; Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
Tosca; Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
3 years ago

Gold Star for him saying that white supremecists & nazis are evil and saying he wants something done about it.

So this is where the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave is these days. Pleasantly surprised when a former Presidential candidate, and current Senator, denounces literal Nazis.

Fuck.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@Kimtsu

Imho defending constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties for everyone and anyone because that’s your fundamental institutional mission is not a shitweasel thing to do

When, in this case, “everyone and anyone” is literal fuckin nazis, I think it is

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

I don’t think hate speech should be defended.

TreePerson
TreePerson
3 years ago

@Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement

One important thing to note is that tear gas is acidic,
that means that it will melt contact lenses so wear glasses instead if you need them and do NOT attempt to remove melted contacts yourself get the affected person to a medic,
and if you decide to go with a gas mask get a military grade mask because the lenses on cheap civilian masks will become cloudy.

I got those from reading stuff posted by street medics and from my mother who volunteers as a legal observer.

P.S. An empty bus sitting around means the police are planning mass arrests, and the media leaving means they got tipped off that something is going to happen (more tips from my mother).

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

About violent resistance : I have been teached today on how blacks in the 60’s and 70’s used (threat of) violence to keep the KKK and lynching mobs far from them, via pseudo-militias. That do add to the point “maybe get violent, but get organized first”. I do still think pacifism is the best way, if only because it’s the only way that can work against police.

As for antifas, is there any historical evidence that they actually do anything worthwhile ? The history of them I am aware of (who is french focused, granted) paint them as being more a folkloric part of big demonstrations more than a group feared by anyone or who prevented anything.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@Ohlmann:

As for antifas, is there any historical evidence that they actually do anything worthwhile ? The history of them I am aware of (who is french focused, granted) paint them as being more a folkloric part of big demonstrations more than a group feared by anyone or who prevented anything.

Again, Cable Street.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

Remember that the skulls that the Left were breaking in Cable Street weren’t those of fascists, but of the Metropolitan Police. The actual fascists were sitting back and waiting for the Met to do their violence for them (as happened in Lewisham, too.) It’s a detail which often gets omitted from the histories of the event.

I say this not to condemn those who fought at Cable Street, but to remind people that violence against the police is often vindicated by history.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@EJ:

Well, so much for my hypothesis of “peaceful better vs. police, non-peaceful necessary vs. paramilitaries like militias, KKK, Boko Haram, etc.”; must be the “peaceful better vs. reality-based, non-peaceful necessary vs. those who have willfully divorced reality” hypothesis that’s correct then. 🙂

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@Ohlmann

As for antifas, is there any historical evidence that they actually do anything worthwhile ? The history of them I am aware of (who is french focused, granted) paint them as being more a folkloric part of big demonstrations more than a group feared by anyone or who prevented anything.

If the French Antifa ever did anything worthwhile ?

So I live near Clermont, aight. A few years ago we had to carry an Antifa out on a stretcher after he took a shot from something akin to a BB gun (but with much more kick) to the head while running security for an event we’d been organizing.

That was the first time I actually saw, with my own eyes, Antifa doing “anything worthwhile” but it certainly wasn’t the last.

That’s what they do. They keep the rest of us safe. They ain’t a “folkloric” part of demonstrations or support concerts, they’re a vital part of it.

bluecat
bluecat
3 years ago

@ Alan Robertshaw

the only thing that brings to mind is Barry Shitpeas, on one of Charlie Brooker’s Wipe (2016 I think) saying that it’s lucky Trump has silly hair and tiny hands because we can laugh at him, like how Hitler wouldn’t have got started if he’d had a silly hairstyle and moustache and… Oooh dear!

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@Surplus to Requirements:
Your desire to adopt nonviolence wherever possible does you credit.

I think, however, that you need a third category: the reality-based, the non-reality-based, and those who will follow orders regardless of the reality that informs those orders. An individual police officer or soldier may be a lovely person and may have severe misgivings about being ordered to tear-gas peaceful Black protestors while protecting violent White ones; but if they carry out those orders then their misgivings don’t absolve them.

Unfortunately, many of those people have the choice of “obey orders or get fired”, which is often a situation in which people are willing to conveniently forget their morals. I have sympathy for this situation, I really do, but the moment they end up acting violently towards another human being my sympathy disappears. If their morality is for sale then they had none to begin with.

I would suggest a use-of-force heuristic that goes as follows:

1. Decide which side future generations are likely to take. If that isn’t the side you were born to, you have a moral duty to commit treason. If you are at all unsure of which side will be vindicated by history, remember that uncertainty; we’ll need it later.

2. People on your side or the opposing side who are harmless should be permitted to continue being harmless even if they’re non-reality-based.

3. Peaceful means should be used against those of your opponents whose harmful actions can be turned aside by peaceful means (and most people can, if you’re vigilant and willing to act early enough.)

4. If you experienced any uncertainty in step one, stop here. Do not take any violent means if you have any uncertainty as to whether you’re on the side of right or not.

5. If you are in a situation where you have too little information to make complex moral philosophy decisions, or where you do not have enough time to consider, stop here.

6. Consider the greatest harm that your remaining opponents could do; not just to you and those like you but to the whole of humanity, including people yet to be born.

7. Against those whose harmful actions cannot be turned aside by peaceful means, consider whether you would need to inflict more harm to stop them violently than they’re likely to inflict if not stopped. (As before, consider harm to all people, not just to you and people like you.)

8. If you passed step seven, then go ahead and use that violence.

Kimstu
Kimstu
3 years ago

@kupo:

I don’t think hate speech should be defended.

Hate speech itself is morally indefensible, certainly. But should we be so quick to give up on defending the fundamental right to free speech defined broadly enough to include hate speech?

Because if we do, who gets to make the call about what counts as “hate speech” that doesn’t deserve to be defended? Realistically speaking, are those decisions going to be made by the likes of you and me? Or by, say, all the Republican governors that have been accusing Black Lives Matter of being a “hate group”?

If we were to give Chris Christie and Nikki Halley and their political ilk the power to legally shut down the public expression of certain statements for being “indefensible hate speech”, do you really think it would be the Nazis and white supremacists that they’d primarily be going after? I think they’d be picking some very different targets.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

But should we be so quick to give up on defending the fundamental right to free speech defined broadly enough to include hate speech?

Yes.

Because if we do, who gets to make the call about what counts as “hate speech” that doesn’t deserve to be defended?

CERD has defined hate speech pretty well. Other countries manage to make it illegal without issue. I think we need to give power to people who can be responsible before we push any laws (which you’ll note I wasn’t even discussing, so I’m not sure why you brought it up), and I don’t think ACLU should spend their limited resources defending hate speech.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Call me an extremist but I don’t believe in a right to free speech that extends to and includes hate speech.

Only thing evil needs to prevail, yadda yadda. If we don’t, as a society, systematically crack down on hate speech and punish its proponents, we get… well, we get Charlottesville. We get fucking Trump.

So yeah. Take down their flags, their statues, torch their hate-buses, punch more nazis, call out anyone defending their “right” to free speech, do whatever.

The very idea of free speech has to be defined clearly, so as to prevent it from being abused like that. Remember that the whole point of free speech is to allow for people to stand against the bullshit.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

Remember that laws limiting hate speech are likely to be enforced, like all other laws, in such a way as to oppress minority groups while ignoring the misdeeds of the privileged.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

@EJ

There have been several such attempts in France even recently, so that’s a fair point.

They failed rather hilariously though.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Hate speech itself is morally indefensible, certainly. But should we be so quick to give up on defending the fundamental right to free speech defined broadly enough to include hate speech?

Yes.

Then again I live in Canada and we have hate speech laws, which I totally agree with.

In human society absolutes are rarely a good thing, and the absolute right to free speech, even if it’s hate speech, is yet another demonstration of that.

@kupo

You mentioned, on the last page, about ‘both side-ism’, another one that I can’t stand is ‘well they’re entitled to their opinion/belief’, which it seems to me is yet another example of taking thing to extremes.

When someone expresses an opinion/belief about something that facts clearly contradict…’well they’re entitled to their opinion’..no they’re bloody not. Or…

One I saw on my fb feed this morning..

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/officer-on-fatal-charlottesville-crash-hahahaha-love-this-1.3544671

One comment: “and obviously he is allowed his opinion have seen other comments like that are those people being investigated too”

And one more contained in that comment:

“have seen other comments like that are those people being investigated too”

When the fuck did this happen? Just because someone else has done something does not mean that anyone else has a bloody right to do it too. “But they did it (..therefore I should be allowed to do it too)” is a goddamn child’s excuse.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

OK, let’s remember that we’re not talking about legislation here. We’re talking about the allocation of resources by a non profit, non governmental organization. The idea that the ACLU not defending nazis will lead, inexorably, to the repeal of Amendment I is hyperbolic and missing the point. The question of whether hate speech laws are a good idea is separate from the question of who the ACLU should defend

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

As a rule, in the US, you should expect laws against hate speech to be used against the Left first. Certainly they are more likely to be used against people who make the Establishment uncomfortable.

Back in the early 60s, when we elected a friend of my father’s as the first Democratic governor in several decades, my father supposedly was in line to be appointed to a judgeship. But the governor really really wanted a bill to bar Communists from speaking at the University of New Hampshire, and my father opposed it very strongly, because he felt that college students ought to be able to hear them and think for themselves. (In that era it was thought that Communism was contagious, like a disease — if you were exposed to it, you’d probably get it.) So he didn’t get to be a judge — which was probably for the good, but that’s another story.

I think it’s actually a good thing for haters to spew their hate, because it’s better to have it out in the open. As a general thing, cockroaches abhor sunlight. Sometimes we act as if hate speech will win out over our counter-speech. I don’t think it will. If you think you’re right, you need to be confident enough to rise to the challenge. I think that Charlottesville has damaged the alt-right and damaged Trump by making clear exactly who these people who support him are.

I am pretty sure we are on the winning side of history, and we should act like we believe it. We should want to expose, not suppress, hate speech.

Who?
Who?
3 years ago

About Pratchet:
I am suprised nobody mentioned Small Gods yet, a standalone and one of my favorites of early Pratchet.

God Omens has nothing to do with Discworld (exept that Death is very similar to the Death in Discworld)

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@mildlymagnificent

Antifa is mostly (entirely?) white as far as I can see. These people don’t have the bone-deep fear of generations of black people that going onto the streets could get them killed (and that no one would be held to account for it into the bargain).

1) Many antifa are not white
2) White antifa are, as you note, in the best position to beat down fascists, because they have less risk of dying in police custody afterwards
3)It’s white people’s mess, it’s our job to clean it up. White people need to stand up and put down these fuckers, because all of their bullshit is enabled by our ambivalence, silence, and failure to break fascist skulls before they started killing people (again; keep in mind that murderous white supremacist mobs have been a constant feature of life in this country from day one, and part of the reason you didn’t hear much about them for a couple decades is because antifas have been out there whupping on them.)

@EJ

Remember that the skulls that the Left were breaking in Cable Street weren’t those of fascistsblackshirts, but of the Metropolitan Police fascists acting under colour of law. The actual fascists blackshirts were sitting back and waiting for the Met to do their violence for them.

FTFY

@Ohlmann

As for antifas, is there any historical evidence that they actually do anything worthwhile

Dr. Cornel West says anti-fascist and anarchist protesters protected clergy from being “crushed like cockroaches” by white nationalists Friday night in Charlottesville: “They saved our lives, actually… I will never forget that.”

Re: Discworld
My recommended starting points are any one of Pyramids, Small Gods, Wyrd Sisters, Mort or Guards! Guards!. Unless you are a fan of Moorcock, Howard, Lieber, and their contemporaries, I do not recommend starting with Colour of Magic

Leo
Leo
3 years ago

@Redsilkphoenix

What Trump couldn’t bring himself to say, Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe could:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mediaite.com/online/virginia-governor-terry-mcauliffe-calls-out-white-nationalists-shame-on-you/amp/

Money quote from the article:

‘You are not wanted in this great commonwealth. Shame on you. You pretend that you are patriots, but you are anything but a patriot. You want to talk about patriots, talk about Thomas Jefferson…’

*Blinks*
American history is not my strong point, but Jefferson probably did worse things than many of these Nazi-wannabees, and was as racist. That is not the example I would have chosen.

SpukiKitty
SpukiKitty
3 years ago

Leo
August 14, 2017 at 9:29 pm

@Redsilkphoenix

What Trump couldn’t bring himself to say, Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe could:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mediaite.com/online/virginia-governor-terry-mcauliffe-calls-out-white-nationalists-shame-on-you/amp/

Money quote from the article:

‘You are not wanted in this great commonwealth. Shame on you. You pretend that you are patriots, but you are anything but a patriot. You want to talk about patriots, talk about Thomas Jefferson…’

*Blinks*
American history is not my strong point, but Jefferson probably did worse things than many of these Nazi-wannabees, and was as racist. That is not the example I would have chosen.

*Oogh!* You can say that, again. I give him an A for effort, though. I commend him for his outrage.

To lighten the mood, I found this….
http://www.politicususa.com/2017/08/14/york-protesters-greet-trump-chant-hes-orange-gross-lost-popular-vote.html
….and Trump Tower is guarded by White Garbage Trucks!

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

This is going around from one of the Charlottesville antifa:

From a comrade who was at Charlottesville:
Took me a couple days but it’s time.
To anyone who watched Cville from a far, I want to remind you of something.
What that coward did plowing into a crowd of people from the safety of his car and then retreating to safety was not only an act of cowardice but an act of desperation. With 95% of news reports focusing on the attack, there has been very little coverage of how the rest of the day went for the Nazis, so consider this a PSA.
Make no mistake, Charlottesville was an unconditional defeat for the Nazis and the Fash. The day started out with hundreds of Nazis occupying Emancipation Park fully outfitted in makeshift riot gear and surrounded by a contingent of right wing militia in full battle rattle. It ended with 700+ antifascist protestors marching on the final 70 Nazis that were stupid enough to not leave the city. Antifascist demonstrators, outnumbered close to 4 to 1, literally fought an uphill battle through a single choke point against an army of assholes with shields, clubs, and a seemingly endless supply of OC spray with little more than our fists and our flags. The Nazis said they were going to hold Emancipation park and we choked them with their words. Within an hour, the park belonged to Charlottesville again, and the Fash were on the run in all directions. On multiple occasions I saw groups of maybe 5 or 6 protestors chasing off groups of Nazis five to eight times their size.
Festivities began at probably around 930 or 10 and by 1130, the entirety of downtown Cville belonged to Charlottesville, thanks to all of the various groups and individuals that came out to defend it. Once victory in the park was assured and the Nazis completed their general retreat, packed into their church vans and got the fuck out of dodge, all of the Cville defenders regrouped, rehydrated, and answered a call to defend a small group of protestors from approximately 70 Fash that were harassing them. We stepped off by the hundreds and marched with impunity through downtown with cheering from the sidewalks and the cars. About a block away from where the attack occurred, the bloc with which I was a part of converged with another contingent of antifascist protestors, bringing our total number to AT LEAST 700 (I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if it were closer to 1,000).
That’s when the Nazis pulled out their Trump card to try to win the day. This cowardly piece of shit who’s name doesn’t even deserve being written couldn’t cope with the fact that his little group of friends had fucking lost. They came out expecting Berkeley 2 and left in bandages and shame. When the left suffers a defeat, we sit with it, accept it, and learn from it, but these assholes can’t accept that their shitty ‘master race’ is one of utter inferiority and resort to attacking innocent people from the safety of 4,000 pounds of metal.
And even in such a moment of horror, we came out on top. Faced with a situation that none of us expected, street medics and medically trained protestors responded in seconds by the dozens. The following hours long minutes were filled with the greatest acts of compassion for comrades that I have ever witnessed. Medics stayed cool, calm, and collected while providing life saving interventions and preparing accurate and complete patient assessments. By the time EMS arrived, early interventions were mostly complete, and prepared assessments were given allowing triage to be completed accurately but with haste, so that EMS could immediately begin evacing and transporting patients to higher care. It’s a devastating shame that our comrade and fellow worker Heather Heyer had to give the ultimate sacrifice for a cause in which they believed, but I have no doubt that if it weren’t for the actions of the first responders, there would have been several others that would suffer the same fate.
So with that, I would like to conclude this poorly thought out piece of writing with this: Consider the victims of Saturday’s attack. They weren’t a small isolated group of protestors, nor were they in the middle or rear ranks of the bloc marching to the final showdown of the day. They were in the very front. Our comrades were going to be the first to tell the final Nazis that their bullshit isn’t going to stand; not in Cville, not on the East Coast, not in America, and not on the entire fucking planet. Every single one of them is a hero of the highest degree, and don’t fucking forget that. From here on out, we each need to strive to be where they were, to be the tip of the spear against the rise of fascism in this country. So next time you hear of a gathering of fascists, be it five or five-hundred, show up. Show up for yourself, show up for all victims of fascism past, present, and future, and show up for Heather Heyer and all our comrades at the front who risked life and limb for our cause and the greater good.
Prior to Saturday, prominent neonazi Richard Spencer said that Charlottesville was going to be a turning point; that “people are going to speak in terms of ‘before Charlottesville’ and ‘after Charlottesville'”. Let’s show him exactly what that means.
TL;DR: a group of crows is called a Black Floc

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

@Dali

Re: Discworld
My recommended starting points are any one of Pyramids, Small Gods, Wyrd Sisters, Mort or Guards! Guards!.

Pyramids was my first Pratchett book way back, I had to grequently pause to catch my breath I was laughing so much!

SpukiKitty
SpukiKitty
3 years ago

In regards to Hate Speech laws. I’d say we should compromise and ban only hate speech that explicitly incites violence and murder.

Otherwise; Allow the hate speech (so the world can see what’s out there) but have a strong counter-voice against it!

Have the whole culture such that “Bigot” will equal “Complete outcast to be SHAMED”….even more so than now.

In order to succeed, we need to be united and if there’s a big disagreement over opposing methods, it’s best to meet in the middle in those situations….Instead of “Ban hate speech” or “Allow ALL hate speech”, go with “Ban only VIOLENCE/HATE CRIME-PROMOTING hate speech and provide counterpoints”.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ spukikitty

I’d say we should compromise and ban only hate speech that explicitly incites violence and murder.

The problem there is that you can still incite harm implicitly.

http://www.historygallery.com/books/1777%20English%20Kings/CIMG0503.JPG

This is something I have to consider a lot when I do legal stuff for our animal rights things. There’s often a spectrum…

highlighting an issue > legitimate pressure > stochastic terrorism

Where words (or other statements, including visuals) fit on that can often be ambiguous. Part of my role is ensuring we can justifiably say we only meant things in a particular way.

But if there’s one tactic the alt-right and adjacent groups are fond of, it’s plausible deniability so they can and will abuse that ambiguity.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

I’m not certain that “plausible” deniability is the right word. That implies that it has to be, well, plausible.

Watching alt-Righters try to be covert is at once pathetic and hilarious. They take it so seriously, and are so proud of themselves for their attempts.

Moggie
Moggie
3 years ago

EJ:

Watching alt-Righters try to be covert is at once pathetic and hilarious. They take it so seriously, and are so proud of themselves for their attempts.

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Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Thanks for sharing that, @Dalillama. I grinned when I got a mental image of a herd of dumpy fascists in airsoft gear running scared from a group of Antifa a quarter their size. I’m also really glad for the narrative that sums up the whole event, including the attack itself. I’m fairly doused in anti-Antifa bullshit where I live, so it’s good to get some perspective. Fists and flags against armour, clubs, shields and spray. Pretty obvious to see who the actual bullies are.

As for @Alan and @Spukikitty’s arguments – yeah, having legitimate hate speech laws won’t stop the Alt-Right from doing what they’re doing. Heck, even the name Alt-Right is an evasive word for who they really are. Up here in Canada we’ve got fairly robust hate speech laws, and we’ve still got militias organizing under our noses to fight “sharia law”. F’n Three Percenters.

Short form of that is: Hate speech laws don’t restrict a lot unless you also have gun restriction laws.