Make Pyongyang Glass Again: On Reddit, Trump superfans cheer for a nuclear strike on N. Korea

@numerobis

Nuclear war with China would certainly reduce the rate of global warming. The nuclear winter would be short-lived, but after killing a large fraction of the first world in China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the US — the world economy would be devastated and CO2 emissions would drop precipitously.

I’m pretty sure Canada would take a lot of damage too. It’s not like we can move out of the way of nuclear shockwaves and fallout from the U.S.

I’ve just finished reading To Kill The President by Sam Bourne (aka Jonathan Freedland, Guardian journalist). It’s a fictional account of an unnamed President, with a lot of familiar traits, which begins with a late night attempt by Potus at nuking N Korea. I’d just read the beginning before going to sleep last night, then woke up to “fire and fury” this morning. So you can imagine I was keen to find out what happened next.

It’s not my favourite novel of his and wraps up rather too neatly, but if you like political thrillers and fancy reading what I’m sure some of the characters would call “libtard fantasy”, there it is. Even if it’s a little too close to home to be entirely comfortable.

Well, North Korea has already upped the ante by threatening Guam.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-mulling-plan-strike-guam-state-media-announces-n790996

I really hope that Trump is content with bluster, because I don’t like our chances otherwise.

This all makes me very very nervous. I do hope that Weird Eddie is right, with this comment:

trump isn’t likely to do anything, because trump isn’t a “do”-er. (I hope)

It sounds right to me. But then, I was convinced Trump would never be elected, so I don’t trust my own judgement about these things any more.

Re: refusing an order from the President, the question has been asked before. Listen, and be afraid:

I don’t teach English, I shouldn’t be correcting people’s work:

Donald Trump took a few minutes out from his golf vacation today to threaten North Korea China with the “fire and fury” of a massive, possibly nuclear, military strike.

Make Pyongyang Beijing glass again!

North Korea China may become our next weapons testing site… I’m not mad.

Good ol president about to turn northkorea into no Korea

Actually, this one is accurate aside from the spelling and punctuation. If Pyongyang gets taken out as the opening salvo to a war between the US and China, it’s taking Seoul with it, and as someone already said Seoul is the core of South Korea.

Also if this doesn’t go down in history as the Pyongyang Beijing gang bang I’ll be very disappointed

Ack! That didn’t work. Here’s the link to copy and paste into a browser. Actual podcast starts at about 5:15.

http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/

Looks like about 0.5% of the US population is Korean or of Korean descent. I wonder when they’ll be packed off to happy camps, just in case.

The problem with Seoul isn’t that NK might nuke it if the US goes to war.

The problem is that NK will reduce it to rubble with all that artillery they’ve got holed up in the mountains, and they won’t even need nukes. There’s no way to take out those cannons in time to prevent them from firing on Seoul, and NK knows it, that’s why they’ve been using the city as a hostage. You can’t really bomb something that’s hidden in a mountainside, you can’t nuke off a whole mountaintop, and ground soldiers would be discovered long before they’d have a chance to disable that artillery. And unlike nukes, you can’t really set up a “shield” against conventional artillery strikes.

There’s just no way around it : if NK feels threatened enough, they can and absolutely will turn Seoul to rubble without a second thought. The only reason they haven’t done so yet is that it would anger everyone and they wouldn’t have a hostage covering their ass anymore – but if Trump fires the first shot, all of that amounts to nothing. The Tiny Tyrant doesn’t seem to give the shadow of a flying fuck about that, and Seoul has apparently made it off the list of “unacceptable casualties”.

I’m scared.

You know, I always had the approach that people aren’t really evil, they are misguided or foolish or uneducated…
I redact that approach. The people writing these statements are fucking EEEEEVUL!

North Korea has been acting mostly in a rational way, which will continue at least as long as there are people keeping Kim Jong-un’s behavior in check (presumably with plenty of movies and sports TV, expensive food, and Hennessy cognac). The DPRK makes threats to get leverage in obtaining food aid, which it spends mostly on the military and the relatively affluent (by North Korean standards) middle class in Pyongyang, rather than the food-insecure people who need that food aid. North Korea knows that attacking the US or its allies would be a horrible idea.

Plus, maybe Trump just needs a distraction.

Moggie said

Perhaps the nuclear launch codes should be embedded on page two of a dense document, without pictures or bullet points. Trump would never get past half-way down page one before losing interest.

Except you know Steve Bannon is lurking in the background with a highlighter.

@TheKND

Honestly, at this point one cannot differentiate evil from stupid, or rather they’re two sides from the same coin. Actually scratch that, “stupid” is borderline ableist because it discriminates against a persons inherent mental capacities, something they have no control over. What is actually at play here is “willful ignorance”.

It’s not that they don’t know they’re wrong. These people have been told they’re wrong; they’ve been proven wrong; each and every one of their arguments and motives have been carefully analyzed, deconstructed and refuted; each one of their sets of beliefs has been analyzed, traced to a source of individual or societal bias, and refuted. And yet despite all of that they continue to double down on these beliefs.

That’s not stupidity, that’s willful ignorance. They know too damn well that science and logic contradict their set of beliefs, yet they get pleasure and reassurance from watching their truth impose itself by means of force upon everyone else.

Sort of a “if it isn’t true, then I’ll make it true”.

About the cannons that could destroy Seoul : we have currently 0 idea of how useable they still are.

They might have been kept in a good state by the NK. It’s even likely one of their main objective. But given their general dereliction, did they really ?

It’s not that they don’t know they’re wrong. These people have been told they’re wrong; they’ve been proven wrong; each and every one of their arguments and motives have been carefully analyzed, deconstructed and refuted; each one of their sets of beliefs has been analyzed, traced to a source of individual or societal bias, and refuted. And yet despite all of that they continue to double down on these beliefs.

That’s not stupidity, that’s willful ignorance. They know too damn well that science and logic contradict their set of beliefs, yet they get pleasure and reassurance from watching their truth impose itself by means of force upon everyone else.

Sort of a “if it isn’t true, then I’ll make it true”

this!!!

THIIIIIISSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Ohlmann Cannons are fairly simple devices these days. If you don’t fire them, all they really need is anti-corrosion treatment. The shells? If kept dry, fair quality ammo keeps indefinitely.

There are museum pieces from the Civil War (and probably before) that still fire.

I don’t think we want to risk lives on whether they still work.

1) it’s rather amazing that all these oh so Macho guys are the same folks that freak out about a terrorist attack in another country almost to the point of bedwetting

2) if memory serves during the last months of the Nixon Administration a discrete notice went out to the US Military that no presidential order was to obeyed unless countersigned by the Joint chiefs – this was when folks were worried that Nixon might order troops to clear out congress. One would not be surprised if something like this hasn’t already been installed – witness the Military’s reaction to Trump’s Trans ban.

it’s rather amazing that all these oh so Macho guys are the same folks that freak out about a terrorist attack in another country almost to the point of bedwetting

S’why I’m happy calling them bullies. They’re tough guyse – as long as the fighting’s over there and they get to kick over someone elses’ sand castles. As soon as the fighting looks like it might actually affect them? Tears and fearful screaming.

S’why I’m happy calling them bullies.

I think if there’s one universal common factor linking MRAs, Nazis, animal abusers etc, that’s it.

@Ohlmann and JS

Well, in the scenario we’re talking about it’s not just the maintenance of the guns themselves; also consider the fire control systems and the training to use them. Of course if we’re talking about a just a big strike on an area target, where they’re just trying to hit any part of a metropolitan area just to terrorize and cause civilian casualties, I guess that’s less of a concern.  Do the North Korean preparations use just field artillery in pre-planned positions with pre-planned firing data?  I assume the guns aren’t in fixed mounts  (like old-school 1930s-1940s) nobody has had anything like that since the 1950s, I don’t think and even then it was for a different thing, i.e. coast defense guns. It does make pre-planning fire control and getting the data easier, though, I’m would think.

The other limitations for an operation like that is logistic…do they have the ammo for something that massive stockpiled? Of course it wouldn’t have to be that massive to be devastating to a civilian population center.

So, point taken not to take chance with lives.

Yes, we hope the south korean won’t have to try that chance.

The horrible thing being, if NK fail at it, this will be used as a “proof” it was a risk worth taking.

I just had a thought in regard to what I wrote earlier. I’m not going to diminish the evil these people are causing or excuse them in any way whatsoever, I’m also not against retaliating by any means necessary to prevent them from actively taking away rights from women and vulnerable groups.

However, in regard to the existence of this echo-chamber of theirs and ways to ultimately defeat it and overcome it. Could it be that this resistance toward the truth is, in a way, founded upon internalized ableism? Why is it so hard for anyone to admit that they are wrong, over even the smallest thing? I was mentioning earlier that “stupid” is borderline ableist. It is also the most common insult hurled between people, to try to discredit one another, during political debates.

What exactly is the extent of the role of shaming someone’s mental capacities in regard to their resistance to accept logic and facts (if any)? Could it be that this doubling down on terrible ideas or notions be rooted in the internalized notion that to be proven wrong is synonymous with being unintelligent or less mentally capable and the societal shaming that goes along with it? And if so to what extent does this sort of internalized ableism help in maintaining echo chambers?

@Scildfreja

“They’re tough guyse – as long as the fighting’s over there and they get to kick over someone elses’ sand castles. As soon as the fighting looks like it might actually affect them? Tears and fearful screaming.”

Yes.

The U.S. Army (and I’m confident the other services as well) are full of men and women ready to risk their lives in ways those cowards would not…and many of the men in that group hold to values of equality and progressivism that would render us beta cuck manginas, etc. etc. [insert favorite pejoratives]..in their minds, even though our daily lives on the surface look more like the embodiment of masculine vigor that they claim to champion (though their claims are empty).

Weird Eddie

… because he believes the bluster is action.

Funnily enough, I was just watching a cable news channel and one of the panel said exactly that – that Trump thinks that and Sebastian Wotsisname actually said it out loud “Trump has taken firm action” (or something very like that.

(I can’t be the only 70 or + person who’s wondering where and when they got rid of their … and kiss your children goodbye posters with the mushroom cloud in the background.)

@ pavlov’s house

I assume the guns aren’t in fixed mounts (like old-school)

Fraid so. An assessment in the 70s calculated 20,000+ artillery pieces on fixed mounts (often just barrels on simple frames or concrete bollards) in fixed firing positions aimed at Seoul.

Presumably they’re still there. And I suspect even in NK you can get something like WD-40.

@Pavlov’s House

The U.S. Army (and I’m confident the other services as well) are full of men and women ready to risk their lives in ways those cowards would not…and many of the men in that group hold to values of equality and progressivism that would render us beta cuck manginas, etc. etc. [insert favorite pejoratives]..in their minds, even though our daily lives on the surface look more like the embodiment of masculine vigor that they claim to champion (though their claims are empty.

Unless I’m much mistaken 3/4s of the members of the U.S. Army voted for Donald Trump, according to election statistics. I hardly think they value equality and progressivism.

To quote from the NPR article:

FBI agents raided former Trump campaign ChairmanPaul Manafort’s home, a spokesman for Manafort tells NPR’s Tamara Keith. Manafort’s name has come up as part of the U.S. investigation into Russia’s attempt to meddle with last year’s election.

The raid reportedly took place in late July, one month after Manafort registered as a foreign agent.

News of the raid in Alexandria, Va., was first reported by The Washington Post. A spokesman for Manafort, Jason Maloni, tells NPR:

“FBI agents executed a search warrant at one of Mr. Manafort’s residences. Mr. Manafort has consistently cooperated with law enforcement and other serious inquiries and did so on this occasion as well.”

@Diego Duarte
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aol.com/amp/2016/11/11/why-veterans-voted-donald-trump-swing-states/

According to CNN exit polls, veterans voted at a 2-1 ratio for Trump over Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton. In Ohio, North Carolina and Florida — battleground states rich with military history — a number of counties pulled for Trump at numbers higher than those John McCain and Mitt Romney candidates had over President Obama in 2008 and 2012.

About that much. As if we needed yet another reason to despise the US military. Even ground troops aren’t exempt from contempt.

Watching all of this unfold is nerve-racking.

@Ooglyboggles

Pretty much. Being a foreigner it baffles me how poorly received any comment about the US military usually is. Even liberals glorify military service and jingoism as if the institution had done anything positive after WWII.

Veterans may have supported Trump in part because we’ve had 15+ years of uninterrupted wars with no clear progress or success. Trump blames “liberal elites” for that, and hence pro-military people can have a “politically correct” reason for backtracking and admitting the Iraq War was a mistake.

Pavlovs House:

Do the North Korean preparations use just field artillery in pre-planned positions with pre-planned firing data? I assume the guns aren’t in fixed mounts (like old-school 1930s-1940s) nobody has had anything like that since the 1950s, I don’t think and even then it was for a different thing, i.e. coast defense guns.

I thought Switzerland had a number of those until the 1980s?

@Diego Duarte
Personally, I call people “foolish” and hardly ever “dumb” or “stupid”.
A fool, after all, isn’t necessarily lacking in intelligence, but mostly in judgement and willingness to learn. Heck, I worked with mentally handicapped people and elderly people with dementia for years and even though some of them couldn’t use long words or keep a long conversation, they were some of the kindest and most emphatic being on the planet.

@DiegoDuarte and Oogelyboggles

Of course the ones that voted for Trump don’t hold to those values. But many of the rest of us do and the minority is sizeable….more so than people like Trump accept or admit. So is the influence of that minority.

I work and teach at a major military educational institution, and see and work closely with future and current leadership daily. The U.S. Army that I know in my daily life isn’t the repository of overwhelming rigid conservatism that one might think. But perhaps I’m either facing a microcosm unrepresentative of the larger institution or just naively idealist.

I’m old enough to remember when the major argument against Hillary was “She’ll get us into a nuclear war”.

Mueller and Schneiderman must be getting uncomfortably close. Expect more of this shit in coming days, to try to distract from the Russia news cycle. Trump was also tweeting about the “failing NY Times” earlier this week, so I wouldn’t be surprised if another big story is about to drop.

Meanwhile, Putin’s achieved one of his major goals: destabilizing and weakening the US. These chest-thumping Reddit putzes don’t realize how hard they’re getting played, and that they’re directly to blame for this new, unraveled America. They think they’re on the winning team. They’re convinced 45 is on their side, when even a cursory glance at his past reveals that he always, always, ALWAYS stiffs people. Contractors, customers, underpaid models, ripped-off Trump University students, Russian presidents interested in the lifting of sanctions…it’s how he does business. His standard MO: 1) refuse to pay people what he owes them 2) make them go to court 3) bankrupt them with legal fees 4) force them to accept pennies on the dollar 5) lower the settlement even further because they accepted too readily 6) proclaim himself a “tough negotiator”.

What makes his supporters think they’ll fare any differently?

@Moggie

“I thought Switzerland had a number of those until the 1980s?”

Yeah, true, I forgot about that….would have to look it up but I bet they did. It’s certainly a place where that kind of installation would have still made a lot of sense and maybe still does.

@Alan

Interesting, thanks.

“…often just barrels on simple frames or concrete bollards”

Whoa….wow. Well, I guess that’s one way to do it. And if it’s just a big barrage to terrorize I guess they don’t need sophisticated targeting. I wonder if their air defenses are worth anything.

@Pavlovs House: how big is the officer corps compared to the rest of the army? Could easily be that 3/4 of the enlisted men are trumpets, while the officer corps is better off.

Recent TV show (within 10 years?) made the point that some of the “barns” in Switzerland were in fact hidden artillery mounts. I believe they still have an AFB tunneled into a mountainside. Swiss may be “neutral”, but good luck winning any battle to take them over.

Pavlovs House: I suspect they’d be able to shoot down the occasional helicopter, or maybe a passenger plane if they tried.

But so what? They aren’t really planning to exactly *win* a war against the US, it’s enough just to make sure that South Korea will lose. With long-range nukes, they could also add on that the US itself would lose.

With thousands of cannon set up, Seoul is guaranteed to lose in an instant. The general quoted above is confident that he can beat NK in 15 minutes. That’s too long.

@ pavlov’s house

I wonder if their air defenses are worth anything.

Don’t know anything about NK’s airforce, but supposedly they have the densest air defence system in the world. The bulk of that is locally produced copies of cold war Soviet stuff. In the last decade though they’ve worked on a much upgraded system based on Chinese technology. It’s mobile and has a pretty state of the art radar system. How that would fare against the B1, B2 and F-117 is anybody’s guess.

(And let’s hope it stays a guess)

@numerobis

Can’t pull up a good source for the current numbers; a lot of news reports quote a 2012 Department of Defense demographics report. Five years is a long time but as of then:

Re: Active duty personnel

98,745 officers, 447,308 NCOs and enlisted personnel.

You mentioned enlisted men, though, and that does raise an interesting point about gender.

2012 numbers were 82,714 male officers, 16,035 female officers, 389,848 male enlisted, 57,460 female enlisted.

Would be interesting to see the 2017 numbers in comparison….will look more for a source later.

Here’s the 2012 report:

http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2012_Demographics_Report.pdf

I’d love to seen 2016 election data of military voting broken down by ethnicity, gender, branch, and active vs. reserve components

So roughly 20% officers. They can vote for whoever they want and not make a huge difference in the overall force’s voting preference. I’m assuming you’re mostly teaching officers.

Good catch on enlisted *men*. Gah.

OT, but whack-job Sen. Ron Johnson is suggesting that John McCain’s failure to vote to blow up Obamacare may be a result of his brain tumor.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/08/gop-senator-mccains-tumor-may-have-affected-health-vote.html

@JS
Yeah, we have those too in Austria. They put tank-towers in the middle of forests overseeing mountain passes with enough shells for the next decade. Impossible to find by any weather (needlewoods swallow heat) but with a very good sight on the nearby roads. You just shoot two tanks and the whole convoy stops because the surrounding area is impossible to maneuver with vehicles.

@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina:

whack-job

Comments policy, thanks.

omg also there:

You can airbnb the home trump lived in until he was 4.

D: I hope no one trashes the place.

JS:

Recent TV show (within 10 years?) made the point that some of the “barns” in Switzerland were in fact hidden artillery mounts. I believe they still have an AFB tunneled into a mountainside. Swiss may be “neutral”, but good luck winning any battle to take them over.

There’s a photo gallery here of former Swiss artillery and bunkers.

blow up Obamacare may be a result of his brain tumor.

I’m sure it was… McCain got a LOT of grief for getting treatment for his health problems on the public dollar then going back to work and denying others the same.

Re: Conscription in NK

I heard somewhere that all North Koreans have 5-10 years of mandatory military training. If that’s true, I highly doubt they all become real reservian soldiers. That kind of training would be hugely expensive, and most of the able-bodied adult population couldn’t be mobilized anyway for practical reasons. They also couldn’t be all equipped in a way that makes any sense in a modern war.

Most likely, ordinary conscripts are just taught karate and obedience when they aren’t being used for whatever slave labor. Military is good for obedience training and propaganda infusion, and those must be in high demand in a country like NK.

Swiss may be “neutral”, but good luck winning any battle to take them over.

It’s going to be an uphill battle for any invader.