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MRAs demonstrate their complete ignorance of feminist history, part 9742

Er, that’s not quite how it happened (Click for larger version)

By David Futrelle

I found the meme above on the front page of the Men’s Rights subreddit today, with 82 upvotes (and counting). It’s a pretty good illustration of the standard story MRAs tell themselves about feminism: Once upon a time there was Good Feminism, it was modest and polite and didn’t ask for much. But then along came Tumblr feminists with their purple hair and they ruined everything!

While some MRAs in the Men’s Rights subreddit thread do take issue with the blatant historical inaccuracies of this meme, the enormous popularity in MRA circles of this narrative about feminism — which bears about as much resemblance to actual feminist history as the Men’s Rights movement does to a legitimate civil rights movement, which is to say none — reveals how little the typical MRAs actually know about the movement they pretty much devote all their time to denouncing. Not that their complete ignorance of feminism keeps them from having many very strong opinions about it, which they would like to tell you about at length.

Of all the dumb things in the above meme, their weird sanitized fantasy version of 2nd wave feminism amuses me the most. Hey MRAs, go take a look at Sisterhood is Powerful or the Redstockings online archive, or something.

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mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Until I read Kat’s comment I hadn’t had a really good look at that Oh so sweet second-waver.

Then … I read the text beneath properly. Maybe the reason why us old and cranky 2nd wave feminists look so pert and pretty in retrospect is that they’ve left out some of the more demanding demands we gave voice to. Like the arguments for:
– no fault divorce,
– refuges for women and children escaping violent homes and establishing them ourselves despite the opposition of police, religious & political leaders and most of the rest of the population,
– the right to sign leases, legal agreements and loans, and to open and operate bank/cheque accounts in our own names without an obligatory male guarantor (and, for married women, doing these things without our husbands co-signature or permission),
– the right to continue in our permanent jobs after marriage as well as equal pay for those jobs regardless of our marital status.

And making a start on the rest of the shitty stuff that’s still not cleaned up – workplace harassment et al.

Joe Fica
Joe Fica
3 years ago

Not all men feel this way, even when mistreated by the system or one woman. I am going through a divorce with a woman who claimed I was inappropriate with my daughter in order to gain a custody advantage.
Her plan was tripped up with a recording that was going in the courthouse. This is more common than most women would like to believe and is becoming more prevalent as a divorce tactic. One day I may post the entire recording to see just how this happens. I would love for some feminist to justify her actions. However, I do not believe most females or feminists would do such a thing.
I understand the MRA movement but only to a point. Most women and most men do not fall into the extreme category. I watched the movie The Red Pill, I see her point and the MRA men’s point also. In the movie she chose what would be the opposite of extreme feminists.
There is a middle ground somewhere. I work in a primarily female based occupation and have never thought less of my female colleagues vs our male ones. Also, at least in my career, salaries are tied to experience, education and years of service. Both sides are treated fairly.

“This is the deepest desire of the MRA movement. It is this one belief that drives them.
The idea that women’s sense of self be based exclusively on the approval of men is a basic tenet of patriarchy… it might be THE basic tenet (except for control of the money)”

Ruby Tuesday
Ruby Tuesday
3 years ago

I was fortunate enough to know my great grandmother who was a suffragette. She told me that she and her friends would be the ones who would throw rocks at the cops because “the Quaker girls didn’t have the stones for it” (she found that pun hilarious) and she had a pretty good arm from playing the cello. That women was tough as nails and would make your average MRA piss himself with just a look.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

The ignorant fool in tje CJ thread does not know, this site explicitly says it’s not a safe zone. They can’t take the criticism and they want to just exhaust the other person at this point, make them stop responding, or make them react in a way that let’s them feel better on a purely social level.

Anger is a response to things we fear.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Brony
Very true. I think he’s close to a meltdown.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Trump’s Trans Military Ban Now Policy

http://www.losangelesblade.com/2017/08/04/trumps-trans-military-ban-now-policy/

Trump’s tweets last week announcing a ban on transgender individuals serving openly in the U.S. military was turned into a “guidance” policy for implementation that passed muster with the White House Counsel’s office Friday night.

http://i.imgur.com/B2p3Tty.jpg

dslucia
dslucia
3 years ago

I really do hope that the actual military opposes this “policy”. I don’t hold out a lot of hope, but I’d still like to at least try being optimistic.

Shaenon
3 years ago

I notice that the text under the current feminist doesn’t mention anything she believes or fights for. It’s just complaining about the way she does it.

They might as well scold the Second Waver for joining a lesbian separatist commune and blaming the patriarchy (duder, the old generation invented blaming the patriarchy!), or the First Waver for beating off cops with sweet judo moves.

Coquette St. Jacques
Coquette St. Jacques
3 years ago

“Third wave feminist” to an MRA means “bitch who won’t shut up”. Nothing less, nothing more.

I actually saw someone referring to themself as a “classic feminist” the other day. I think we know what that means.

Nequam
Nequam
3 years ago

@Shaenon: perhaps you should’ve gone with “beating down” rather than “beating off”, though that would’ve been a VERY NOVEL form of protest in that era (or now, for that matter)…

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@kupo
I wish it ddidn’t have to happen, but I don’t see how it’s possible to fix the bigotry problem without using the same tools of dominance that that they do targeted at problem behavior. People with the impulse to simply fill the social space with bigoted messages and behavior can’t complain since it reciprocal in terms of aggression and criticism. Eventually some hit a point where they want to make scary thing go away impulsively because there is no actual connection to reality at the end of the bad reasoning and justifications.

Lorcan Nagle
Lorcan Nagle
3 years ago

The always excellent YouTuber Garrett did a video which addresses the cartoon here (amongst other things) almost two years ago. It’s well worth spending 30 minutes with:

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

@mildlymagnificent

Yes, the artist (tee-hee) who created that graphic left out a lot of the demands of second-wave feminists.

Also left out: the fact that we’re still fighting for economic equality and reproductive rights.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

Interesting discussion of the term “second-wave feminism.”

Although I claimed that label in this thread, I don’t actually think of myself in that way. Also, I’m a bit younger than the second-wave feminists. That said, I’m still a lot older than the fifteen-year-old pictured in the graphic.

I’ve heard progressive politics described as a river. It flowed for many miles before it reached you. Step into it. Know that it will flow on once you’re gone.

Kimstu
Kimstu
3 years ago

@Penny Psmith:

You know what I wonder? Whether the word takbir (on the “aftermath” sign) is supposed to mean something there, or was just picked at random. […]

What do they mean? Or did they just go for “this is something in Arabic so it is MUSLIM and BAD”?

I think it’s even funnier than that! You’re right that the word takbir references the phrase Allahu akbar/”God is great” and/or the uttering of that phrase. So I’m betting some dumb Islamophobic meme-maker wanted to show an image of “radical Islamist extremist displaying banner with the takbir on it” and didn’t understand that “the takbir” means the words of the Arabic invocation “Allahu akbar“, not the Arabic noun takbir itself.

It’s as if somebody clueless about American culture had heard about Americans singing the “Star-Spangled Banner” and tried to represent it with a video of a crowd singing “The star-spangled banner, the star-spangled banner, the star-spangled banner…” (catchy anthem, huh?) 😀

You can also tell that the dummkopf who made that takbir-banner meme had no idea what they were doing because the word has the vowels written out along with the consonants, which is not done in writing ordinary Arabic words except in the Qur’an.

Ken
Ken
3 years ago

If somebody tells me “I support feminism, I just hate what the 3rd wave feminists have turned it into”, I assume they would have hated 1st and 2nd wave feminists too. I was a little kid in the ’70s and I don’t remember 2nd wave feminists getting treated all that well. The were called humorless man-haters looking for special treatment.

Myriad
Myriad
3 years ago

Waves? Screw that. I think of feminism like a laser. We started out at 1kiloWatt, ramped it up to 1MegaWatt, then ramped it up to 1 GigaWatt, next stop 1 TeraWatt.

@Jesalin

Dear sweet baby Buddha that so tickled me. I’m going to have to remember this one.❤️

Also it’s a violet laser, because purple is my favorite colour.

Lover of purple high five. ✋🏽

ColeYote
ColeYote
3 years ago

Yeah, MRAssholes belief that second-wave feminism was somehow more moderate than today’s feminism has always been… interesting. Like, they know Dworkin and the SCUM Manifesto exist but have somehow convinced themselves that they’re more relevant now than they were 40-50 years ago.

Lexicon
Lexicon
3 years ago

The irony in this is that there’s a direct lineage from some of the more toxic elements of “second-wave” era feminism to MRAs themselves, via the influence of Warren Farrell. The best example of that is how Farrell sees everything awful that happens to men as strictly a gender issue. Coal miners and garbage collectors have dangerous working conditions? Yep, it’s all because they’re (mostly) men. No class issues to see here.

Intersectionality arose largely as a reaction to similar tendencies among previous feminists to, well, “focus…exclusively on female victims of gender-neutral issues.” Of course, intersectional feminism is the branch most associated with the “third wave”.

I’m seriously impressed by how much sheer wrongness they managed to stuff into one image. The only thing that’s missing is a description of “first-wave” feminists as strong supporters of Black Lives Matter…

Ken
Ken
3 years ago

@ColeYote,

They bring up Dworkin a lot. In fact there’s a space on the MRA bingo card called “The Dworkin Gambit” where they claim feminists believe all sex to be rape. I’ve also heard people bring up SCUM as if Valarie Solanas was the Chair of Woman’s Studies at Smith and not some random nut job. It just depends on the MRA and the point he’s trying to make. I’m sure Gloria Steinem is just thrilled to hear about all that support she had back in the ’70s.

Kat, representative of the feminist government in exile
Kat, representative of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

@Lexicon

The irony in this is that there’s a direct lineage from some of the more toxic elements of “second-wave” era feminism to MRAs themselves, via the influence of Warren Farrell. The best example of that is how Farrell sees everything awful that happens to men as strictly a gender issue. Coal miners and garbage collectors have dangerous working conditions? Yep, it’s all because they’re (mostly) men. No class issues to see here.

Toxic elements? Names and citations needed.

As far as Warren Farrell goes, he’s following the advice of that well-known feminist, Karl Rove:

Karl Rove’s Handbook

Tactic #3: Accuse Your Opponent of What He/She is Going to Accuse You Of.
“‘You say that I don’t love you! I think it is you who does not love me!’”

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/10/8/1141830/-Karl-Rove-s-Handbook

Who knew!

Also, it looks like there were strong connections between abolitionists and women’s suffragists:

In the 1830s, thousands of women were involved in the movement to abolish slavery. Women wrote articles for abolitionist papers, circulated abolitionist pamphlets, and circulated, signed, and delivered petitions to Congress calling for abolition. Some women became prominent leaders in the abolition movement. Angelina Grimke and Sarah Moore Grimke became famous for making speeches to mixed (male and female) audiences about slavery. For this radical action, clergymen soundly condemned them. As a result, in addition to working for abolition, the Grimke sisters began to advocate for women’s rights.

Other women who were active in the abolitionist movement became interested in women’s rights as well, for many reasons. Female abolitionists sometimes faced discrimination within the movement itself, which led to their politicization on the issue of women’s rights. In addition, women working to secure freedom for African Americans began to see some legal similarities between their situation as Anglo women and the situation of enslaved black men and women.

In 1840, the World Anti-Slavery Convention was held in London. Abolitionists Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott attended the Convention but were refused seats on the floor by male abolitionists because they were women. As a result, Stanton and Mott decided to hold a convention on women’s rights.

“All I ask of our brethren is that they will take their feet from off our necks and permit us to stand upright on the ground which God intended us to occupy” – Sarah Moore Grimke

https://www.nwhm.org/online-exhibits/rightsforwomen/abolitionandsuffrage.html

In addition, second-wave feminist thought was nothing if not intersectional. It was in feminist literature written or published in that era that I learned about the lives of women who didn’t look like me.

Go figure!

Shaenon
3 years ago

Toxic elements? Names and citations needed.

Warren Farrell started his media career as a feminist, believe it or not. In the 1970s he built himself up as a pundit and talking head by providing the “male feminist” perspective.

Since then, we’ve seen plenty of other prominent men build themselves up as feminist gurus and turn to reactionary creeps the minute it stopped getting them money, attention, and praise from grateful women, so Farrell’s not even interesting for that.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

People like Farrell are one of the reasons I stopped calling myself a feminist — it sounds too much like “I support a few things that reasonable* feminists want, so give me my cookie.”

*i.e., those who aren’t too demanding of change in men

BritterSweet
3 years ago

I think the Aftermath picture is just the revenge fantasy element. You know, where (“Western”) society collapses, and the feeemales now live in a post-apocalypse world where they’re sorry they ever dared to feminize.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Ignoring the ‘aftermath’ doodle monstrosity, the little pictures for the different waves are rather cute. Wish they weren’t used for mra bullshit. Could use a womanist character and some other intersectional chibis. A well meaning ally, a not so well meaning ‘ally’. This could be a fun little thing. Sigh…

@Joe
Honey, no…

@Ken

some random nut job

Comments policy

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Was Joe stuck in moderation?

Not all men feel this way, even when mistreated by the system or one woman.

No one said they did. Many men comment on this site. The owner of this blog is a man. We’re talking about MRAs here, which it’s clear from your post you’re only familiar with what they claim to be about and are probably unaware of what their actions show they’re truly about.

I am going through a divorce with a woman who claimed I was inappropriate with my daughter in order to gain a custody advantage.

She’s a terrible person for doing that. She’s hurting you, her child, and probably a number of other people by doing this and there’s no excuse for it. I’m sorry that happened to you.

Her plan was tripped up with a recording that was going in the courthouse. This is more common than most women would like to believe and is becoming more prevalent as a divorce tactic.

I haven’t seen any studies around this (I have seen a few around how frequently courts award custody to fathers vs. mothers, but I’m not well-versed in this specific issue). I’d be interested to see some studies if you have them.

One day I may post the entire recording to see just how this happens. I would love for some feminist to justify her actions. However, I do not believe most females or feminists would do such a thing.

A few things, here: I wouldn’t recommend posting that online as it sounds like it may contain personally identifiable information. Besides, no one here needs evidence of your specific situation. Save that for lawyers.

Another thing: if you already don’t believe that most feminists would justify her actions, then why would you love for a feminist to do so? Are you under the impression that feminists support women over men? I don’t understand the motivation behind this desire; please help me understand.

Finally: please don’t use male/female as nouns when referring to human beings. It’s dehumanizing.

I understand the MRA movement but only to a point.

How well do you understand the movement? And to what point do you empathize with it?

Most women and most men do not fall into the extreme category.

You seem to have conflated men with MRAs and women with feminists. This isn’t a men vs. women issue.

I watched the movie The Red Pill, I see her point and the MRA men’s point also.

I have not watched it, so I must ask, what is her point? My understanding of the film based on her own descriptions and those of people who have watched it is that she sides with the MRAs and I’m curious what you think is different between her side and the MRA side.

In the movie she chose what would be the opposite of extreme feminists.

The opposite of extreme feminismis extreme anti-feminism. Is she an extreme anti-feminist? Is she like a lot of the Red Pill redditors we talk about on here who think women’s suffrage should be taken away?

There is a middle ground somewhere.

When one side is “I should have the same human rights as you” and the other side disagrees, there is no middle ground. I will not concede my rights as a human being.

I work in a primarily female based occupation and have never thought less of my female colleagues vs our male ones.

It’s not really as simple as that. No one thinks they have bias but it’s there, lurking in the back of our minds. That’s true of everyone, not just one side or another of any given issue. We pick up little messages in our culture without realizing it, and we trust our intuition when it tells us about the quality of an individual. So you might tell yourself you view, say, Bob, as being lazy because of some past interactions you’ve had with him, but as it turns out your brain has decided Bob falls into a certain category and has been looking for information to confirm that assumption. That’s called confirmation bias and it causes you not to notice the times he is extremely productive, even if that’s 99% of your interactions with him, and your view of Bob is shaped by that 1% that you’re noticing because he looks like your lazy uncle (or whatever category your brain has put him into).

Also, at least in my career, salaries are tied to experience, education and years of service. Both sides are treated fairly.

The problem is that women are less likely to be promoted and less likely to get a raise when they ask for it. That goes back to perceptions and confirmation bias. If shown the exact same resume for a candidate with a male name vs. a female name hiring managers will, on average, give a lower figure for what they would offer a candidate with the female-sounding name than the male-sounding name.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Also, at least in my career, salaries are tied to experience, education and years of service. Both sides are treated fairly.

And as a white person, I have never experienced racism. Therefore, racism is not a problem. Handy, yeah?

So, Joe meant to necro the Cassie Jaye thread and accidentally posted in the current one, right?

JS
JS
3 years ago

Start with the “#NOTALLMEN” fallacy, and drive full speed toward the wall. Slow down, Joe, back up and think a bit.

Why might you not have experienced sexism in the workplace? Could it be because you’re a man, and women don’t like to complain about sexism to male coworkers who they don’t know very well?

I know I hardly ever hear anything about sexism except in places like this where people can talk about sexism’s effects without worrying about retaliation at work. And with a few women in real-life who’ve talked about it with me. Women are understandably cautious about talking about sexism with coworkers they may have reason to distrust.

You want to learn about sexism and it’s effects? Listen to women, and accept that the problems they discuss are real!

I guess it all really does come down to “Listen to other people, and empathize.” Even some of the trolls here get listened to, though when they start going overboard with lies and disingenuosity, it’s a waste of time.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Could it be because you’re a man, and women don’t like to complain about sexism to male coworkers who they don’t know very well?

Hell, I don’t even talk to other women about the sexism I encounter at work because it’s too risky. I can think of one instance where I told someone about an incident and it was a minor microagression where she told me of an incident with the same person first. Neither incident would be worthy of HR’s time and that’s the only reason I felt comfortable talking about it.

Valentine
Valentine
3 years ago

Joe, why you call women ‘females’. I can see when someone never been in love – when he call women ‘females’. Lucky you getting divorce.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
3 years ago

@Kimstu:

You can also tell that the dummkopf who made that takbir-banner meme had no idea what they were doing because the word has the vowels written out along with the consonants, which is not done in writing ordinary Arabic words except in the Qur’an

Hey, you forgot poetry! 😉 And more importantly, dictionaries, which is probably where the word came from.

I like your theory, although I’m not sure how many people who don’t know much/anything about Arabic would even know the word takbir, in order to cause that mistake.
Still, it’s an amusing image. Like someone saying the word “sigh” out loud instead of sighing. (That was in some pop-culture thing, right? Can’t recall where, right now, but I remember that description.)

Nina
Nina
3 years ago

@Penny Smith

I do know muslims who say takbir instead of Allahu akbar, because sadly we’ve gotten to a point where when you say the latter in public, some people will suspect you of being a terrorist about to blow yourself up. :/

I wonder if it ever ocurred to MRAs that there are feminists out there who -gasp- also happen to be muslim. (Considering the fact that all three feminists in that graphic are white and that they went for the most extreme version of Islam, I very much doubt it.)

KindaSortaHarmless
KindaSortaHarmless
3 years ago

@ Penny Psmith

My guess is that they looked up takbir on Wikipedia, saw how it was written in Arabic, copied it, and called it a day without really thinking about it. Kind of like how J. K. Rowling named Japan’s magic school Mahoutokoro (literally “magic place”) seemingly without knowing how a Japanese school would actually be named.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
3 years ago

Okay, but would they be familiar with the word takbir in the first place, in order to look it up? My impression is that generally people are aware of “Allahu akbar” by itself, not of the verb kabbara (what Nina said seems to support that). But I don’t really know.

(Also, total facepalm on that Japanese name.)

zesty
zesty
3 years ago

They probably think that Second-Wave Feminism=Christina Hoff-Sommers. That’s why Second-Wave Feminism=Good Feminism.

Ms Vanilla Rose
3 years ago

Remember when a 3rd wave feminist wrote “The Scum Manifesto” and 2nd wave feminists were accused of being handmaidens of the patriarchy if they expressed an interest in lipstick or pole dancing?

Oh, hang on, I’ve got 2 and 3 the wrong way round. I once did that in a German test. Learned my lesson now. Eins, zwei, drei …

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
3 years ago

@Kat,

Re: toxic elements
Did you have a chance to glance at masculinities? Second edition, page 210f ,235f. Check it out on google scholar. The argument is that it didn’t have so much to do with theory but with the natural process of group dynamics – i.e if you have a bunch of average guys (or worse, guys with disappointed hopes / entitlement) sit around talking about feminism, they’ll likely agree that they like boobs and have urges and then go forward from that. If you’re lucky they might throw in that it could be a bit harder for a girl to experience her lust, but don’t make the mistake of expecting anything more just than the status quo negotiation modell. Add a bunch of new age bullshit and some fragments of class analysis and you get romanticed rationalistions for violence against women in something that resembles the language of feminist struggle except that it’s men who have to liberate themselves from the truly oppressive wiles of damn girls, their lust-inducing powers and a slut-enabling society.

This problem with identity and having to focus on the oppressed lest the uncaring twist the message, is probably also the reason why being a trans girl / enby in German feminist circles is often still awkward.

Kat, representative of the feminist government in exile
Kat, representative of the feminist government in exile
3 years ago

@Shaenon, @Lyzzy

The irony in this is that there’s a direct lineage from some of the more toxic elements of “second-wave” era feminism to MRAs themselves, via the influence of Warren Farrell. The best example of that is how Farrell sees everything awful that happens to men as strictly a gender issue. Coal miners and garbage collectors have dangerous working conditions? Yep, it’s all because they’re (mostly) men. No class issues to see here.

Warren Farrell is certainly toxic.

But I believe that Lexicon is saying that Farrell himself took the “toxic” elements of second-wave feminism from others. Then Farrell’s (borrowed) thoughts influenced the MRAs.

So I’m wondering what second-wave feminist (other than Farrell, who was a feminist as long as it was convenient) is toxic.

mywall
mywall
3 years ago

Kat

So I’m wondering what second-wave feminist (other than Farrell, who was a feminist as long as it was convenient) is toxic.

I’d probably say that Greer and the other members of the terf movement would qualify as toxic. Also their ideas seem to line up with MRA views on “biological gender” etc.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Kat, representative of the feminist government in exile

So I’m wondering what second-wave feminist (other than Farrell, who was a feminist as long as it was convenient) is toxic.

Toxic? Bit hard to think of any.

There were more than a few who were boring beyond belief – mainly because Freud was still a big thing in the 60s and didn’t fade out completely until the later 70s. Watching the intellectual contortions required throughout a chapter, section, or occasionally a whole book, when a strong feminist wrestles with reconciling those beliefs with a pre-existing strong belief in Freudian psychology was unpretty and extremely dreary. Jung was an equally bad influence on those who fancied themselves as a bit on the mystic side.

I suppose the same thing might be said of the socialists-communists who wrote dissertations extolling the virtues of Marx, Engels and the rest of that crowd as equivalent to those of feminism. It’s certainly an easier ask. All you have to do is skip a few bits here and there rather than explain them away as you need to with Freud. But genuine insights were few and far between and so-so writing makes it not worth the effort to find them (unless you’re an academic or a student, of course, then it’s just work).

One thing I think we benefited from though, was the general background of interest in socialism of the times even if you weren’t an activist (though lots of 2nd wave feminists were veterans of the anti-nuclear and anti-war movements as well as many being trade unionists). It meant that we expected to have to do a lot of reading. Not like reciting Mao’s Little Red Book like a catechism, but ensuring we were fully informed of the history of fighting for women’s rights. Hence the big interest in the history of the abolitionists in the USA as well as lots and lots of quite indigestible philosophy. (Anyone who tells me they enjoy Hegel is a very unusual person – unless they speed-read to get through it and thereby missed the worst of him.)

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@mywall
Agreed. Especially the “natural woman” concept and the “safe spaces” that exclude women who they don’t consider “natural.” Gross.

There are also second-wave feminists I know personally who are anti sex work, though I don’t know if we’re talking about individuals or feminist writers/scholars. And anyone who doesn’t embrace intersectionality is toxic, too. I’m willing to bet there are some second-wave feminists who don’t.

Kereea
Kereea
3 years ago

Kat:
In my experience there are a lot of people in certain leftists spaces (like tumblr) who cloak their exclusionary and gatekeeping tactics in the guise of being “second wave radfems” while accusing third-wavers of capitulating too much to men and being too involved in “non-women” issues. They then lure in younger feminists who are just learning about it and thus you get fun Feminist Faction Wars. Naturally this does not apply to all radfems or women alive during the second wave at all (again, quite a lot of them are barely feminist themselves beyond maybe a single issue), but typically these people tend to:

–Be transphobic. Bi/panphobes are also very common as bi/pan women are attacked for “making themselves available to men.” Overall the only part of LGBT+ the tend to care for is the L

–Have a lot of internalized misogyny and attack women who like feminine things while simultaneously praising men who do since the man is “breaking gender barriers!” without realizing they’re bashing a woman for doing something they praise a man for.

–Accuse third wave feminists of not being radical enough, use “third wave” as a descriptor for being passive or accepting of misogyny.

–Be very USA centric, or at the very least West-centric and very bad at understanding different nations have different feminist history and talking over those women to tell them how to be “more feminist” is not helping.

–Tend to get angry if a man calls himself a feminist since only women can be feminists (no, really, several say this) and thus men should have to identify as “feminist allies” only

They’re a pretty hostile group. IMO they’re mainly focused around the first two points, with the others only cropping up now and then. A lot of them really are just young people who have only gotten a portion of feminist history, edited to get them on the giver’s side. A lot of them are TERFs and some even insist being a TERF is a requirement to being second wave and thus “woman-centric”. It’s a big mess, and a lot of them being loud and jerks has soured the word “radfem” in some online communities like tumblr.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

mywall

I’d probably say that Greer and the other members of the terf movement would qualify as toxic.

Really? You have to remember when Greer was writing her feminist stuff women were also reading Our Bodies, Ourselves. I strongly recommend that link by the way. It’s worth bookmarking for those (very rare) occasions when one of us might feel the need to talk about the history of women’s health and medical practice.

I think it’s very hard for most younger women to understand just. how. ignorant. of the functioning of their own bodies so many women were in those days and before. At the time, many of us got educated about sex and reproduction in feminist consciousness raising groups as married adult women. We were pretty OK with both lesbians and gay men despite many people not understanding much about the issues (apart from the dangers of violence and murder for gays). Though the safety pin earrings with the denim overalls of the radical separatist lesbians was a bit strange to some.

We don’t have a tardis to return and rerun the 70s with trans people making themselves known to the world at large as so many lesbians and gays did at the time. Frankly I don’t blame them considering what was happening to gay men. But I’m inclined to the notion that if we’d known about the issues, we might very well have simply included them onto our already very long to-do list of social-injustices-to-be-dealt-with.

Those times were horrible in many ways. However, the one thing we had in abundance was optimism. I am still a firm believer in the saying – If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, it will fall down.

Jules
Jules
3 years ago

An Internet search for Allahu Akbar brings up the Takbir Wikipedia page. Mystery solved, I think!

Also it’s a violet laser, because purple is my favorite colour.

Lover of purple high five. ✋🏽

Stands up Sparticus style for the love of purple.

“All I ask of our brethren is that they will take their feet from off our necks and permit us to stand upright on the ground which God intended us to occupy” – Sarah Moore Grimke

That’s an awesome quote. I wish I could make awesome quotes like that.

Tov01
Tov01
3 years ago

@KindaSortaHarmless

Now I’m curious. How would a Japanese school be named?

mywall
mywall
3 years ago

mildlymagnificent

We don’t have a tardis to return and rerun the 70s with trans people making themselves known to the world at large as so many lesbians and gays did at the time. Frankly I don’t blame them considering what was happening to gay men. But I’m inclined to the notion that if we’d known about the issues, we might very well have simply included them onto our already very long to-do list of social-injustices-to-be-dealt-with.

I don’t think the problem is the stuff that was done in the 70s. The movement continued since then. Over the last 5-10 years or so, trans people have been making themselves more visible and resisting their oppression. Part of their opposition is coming from a branch of feminism.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Dalillama,

There’s no way of knowing. She’s very few years older than me, and we both grew up in the culture where cross-dressing comics like Benny Hill and the Les Girls drag act in Sydney were as close as we ever came to anything remotely like trans issues as we now understand them. (On the other hand, we could recite from memory the outstanding bravery and the achievements of women who’d had to dress as men in order to do what they wanted in the way of fighting in wars or qualifying as doctors.)

I have no way of knowing what I and the people I knew at the time would have done had we “known what we know now”. What comes to my mind is one meeting (I can’t remember its specific purpose but it was probably during 1975 or 76) where we had trade union officials like me from professional and public service backgrounds sitting alongside unionists from manufacturing and other blue collar jobs who were sitting alongside Lady Somebody-or-other from millionaire’s row and her elegant friends – with all kinds of women from indigenous groups to PTA/ home duties to a couple of lesbian separatists to church representatives and everyone else in between. And we all got along swimmingly – everyone was heard, (one major complaint that many people had about feminists at the time was the rejection of conventional rules of debate – made things drag out interminably sometimes). We all just kept our usual notes and made the most of following up with interesting people during the tea and biscuits breaks.

That meeting – and others like it – makes me think that if someone had raised the issue at some suitable time, in one of those health-reproduction-sexuality type discussions and the discussion had spread, many of us would have said, Oh my goodness, you’re right (even if our first thoughts would very likely have been about the problems and the rights of AFAB people wanting to be accepted into male society). We wouldn’t necessarily have got it right, but we wouldn’t have dismissed it out of hand either. Not all of us anyway.

We’ll never know. But I’d say that most 2nd wave feminist women have grown and developed in much the same way as society has done as a whole. Some are rigidly sticking to their last which was fully formed some time during or before 1975, International Women’s Year. Many more have changed in various ways, hopefully for the better even though I know some who haven’t.

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Edited to delete a lot.

Screw this, anyone who wants to defend or rationalize terfs can go to hell.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Jesalin
<3