Categories
antifeminism baby men comics creepy cultural marxism entitled babies evil SJWs irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nerd rage no girls allowed none dare call it conspiracy oppressed white men racism twitter

A female Marvel comics editor posts a milkshake selfie — and fanbabies throw a fit

The Milkshake Menace

By David Futrelle

Like the titular character in The Princess and the Pea, the members of the Great Internet Lady Hating Machine have developed a truly impressive sensitivity towards the slightest perceived discomfort. And so it shouldn’t really come as that much of a surprise that a small army of perpetually outraged comics fanbabies are currently losing their collective shit over a milkshake selfie.

On Friday, Heather Antos‏, a Marvel comic editor who just happens to be a woman, tweeted a selfie featuring her and a bunch of her female co-workers enjoying some delicious beverages together. “It’s the Marvel milkshake crew!” she announced to her Twitter followers.

She was immediately swarmed by a squadron of fanbabies furious that such “fake geek girls” had made their way into Marvel’s inner sanctum.

https://twitter.com/BAR199323/status/891847749599199232

https://twitter.com/DiversityAndCmx/status/891978745715843072

According to Antos, the private messages she got in response to her tweet were considerably less polite. “[T]he internet is an awful, horrible, and disgusting place,” she wrote, noting that she woke up Sunday, two days after she posted the selfie,

to a slew of more garbage tweets and DMs. For being a woman. In comics. Who posted a selfie of her friends getting milkshakes.

And yes, the fanbabies are still going at it today. For many of Antos’ “critics,” the selfie proved a perfect excuse to rant about Marvel’s alleged “anti-white, anti-men agenda.”

https://twitter.com/MonsieurBallin/status/891666775015694336

https://twitter.com/Ceeckoful/status/891668088671928320

https://twitter.com/Red_Vanguard/status/891918378352472064

One fellow wrote out a mini-manifesto explaining how the eeeevil SJWs were destroying comics.

https://twitter.com/W00dlee/status/891874744802398208

The critics filled their angry tweets with an assortment of buzzwords that will be instantly familiar to anyone who followed GamerGate.

https://twitter.com/DiversityAndCmx/status/891875572741230592

https://twitter.com/CanuckCon/status/891822485305516038

https://twitter.com/darling_kun/status/891850198552653824

Not that the fanbabies didn’t have their own “narrative” to promote. One of the central tenets: that so-called SJWs only pretend to like comics.

https://twitter.com/thebechtloff/status/891705124405604357

https://twitter.com/DiversityAndCmx/status/891674600475676673

Some saw the all-female selfie as a threat not only to men but to … white people in general, predicting an imminent White Genocide of Marvel characters.

https://twitter.com/thebechtloff/status/891515050502107136

It didn’t take long for things to get creepy.

https://twitter.com/thebechtloff/status/891503206282522624

Naturally, the reactionary fanboys turned on those who offered solidarity to the Milkshake Crew.

https://twitter.com/eldermeeseeks/status/891905588925521920

https://twitter.com/johndavidson83/status/891799233275322368

https://twitter.com/Daddy_Warpig/status/891857865140445184

And others tried to dismiss the whole thing as fake:

https://twitter.com/DoctorDooomile/status/891683546246643712

https://twitter.com/DiversityAndCmx/status/891985792591122432

https://twitter.com/laughingdrag/status/891834215377096709

https://twitter.com/DiversityAndCmx/status/891984421519314944

https://twitter.com/Stmpy_Mch/status/891916686953136128

Happily, at this point the “virtue-signalers” are winning. A wide assortment of non-reactionary comics artists, sellers and fans, female and male, have been showing their solidarity with the Marvel Milkshake Crew, filling the #MakeMineMilkshake hashtag with tweets like these:

https://twitter.com/PlinaGanucheau/status/891848514170433536

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

161 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

Aaaand I do…

Patsy Walker, A.K.A. Hellcat! by Kate Leth was fun as long it lasted (17 issues, 3 trades).
Jem and the Holograms (the current IDW comic) by Kelly Thompson was too… I mean I’ve no clue what’s the plan with it since the ongoing ended, because there are still minies so O.o
I still think that Kathryn Immonen’s Sif focused run on Journey Into Mystery (issues #646-655) is criminally under rated too.

Well, yes. I’m mostly a Marvel reader. ^^;

kiki
kiki
3 years ago

I knew I was out of touch with the comics scene, but – superhero comics have surrealist artwork now? Is it all like “Quick, Robin! Throw me the fish stapled to the portrait of Whistler’s mother! We’ve only got a few seconds before the clock melts into the bowler hat!”?

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

@kiki

Most don’t, but some definitely*. Also there is probably no other genre of fiction as in love with metafictionality than superhero comics. Why? 🙂

* Doom Patrol being one of the oldest offenders. I mean this is one of their enemies: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Dada

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Robert Walker-Smith

I took P4 for a Poe, myself

I know that I’m fighting a battle that’s probably already been lost here, but seriously, please read what Poe’s law actually states. If someone is indistinguishable from a random internet sexist asshat, it seems fine to treat them as such.

Tizio
Tizio
3 years ago

If these whiners don’t like that there aren’t enough white cis hetero thin able-bodied attractive male main characters in comic books, why don’t they write their own comic books instead of asking creators to pander to them?

Fabe
Fabe
3 years ago

I knew I was out of touch with the comics scene, but – superhero comics have surrealist artwork now? Is it all like “Quick, Robin! Throw me the fish stapled to the portrait of Whistler’s mother! We’ve only got a few seconds before the clock melts into the bowler hat!”?

\

That might not be too out of place in a Adam West era Batman story

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

If these whiners don’t like that there aren’t enough white cis hetero thin able-bodied attractive male main characters in comic books, why don’t they write their own comic books instead of asking creators to pander to them?

Because they’d just end up being bargain bin Frank Millers.

Just on the topic of superhero comics, one book that I don’t think gets nearly enough love was the 90s version of Excalibur. Granted, it was a British team, so probably didn’t get a lot of distribution in the States, but what I loved about it was the fact that several of the stories were just them hanging around their Lighthouse when inter-dimensional oddballs just crash the place and don’t leave. One arc I remember had Nightcrawler breaking his leg and as he’s hobbling to the bathroom, an alien with a sword just crashes through the shower and starts taking swipes at him (who eventually chills out and sticks around as a member of the team for a few issues). Another had them fighting another team of dimensional travellers who have their hit contract cancelled and are stranded on Earth, so Excalibur has to handle all their bizarre household behaviours (like eating Kitty Pryde’s stuffed animals) until they can find them a portal home.

Plus the Captain Britain Corps was hilarious to watch in action. Particularly whenever Hauptmann Englande (from the obligatory “Nazis won WWII” universe) showed up just to try to upstage the Earth-616 CB. One of their major beefs was always that Captain Britain wasn’t wearing the right uniform from his own Earth and they dragged him before their committee of alternate-world CBs, where Brother Brit-man and a leftover from the Boer War argued about whether he should be flogged for his dress-code violation.

I miss that goofier stuff. Grimdark’s been done to death recently; I could sure go for a sentient time-bomb chicken leaping out of an egg when you’re trying to make omelettes one morning.

snowolf
snowolf
3 years ago

not seen mentioned by anyone so throwing these names out there:

b*tch planet by Kelly Sue DeConnick – basically its a prison planet where all the non-compliant women are sent.

I also suggest Kelly Sue DeConnick’s past runs on Captain Marvel. Hopefully they take the best bits for the movie that’s coming.

Clean room and Red Sonja by Gail Simone are ongoing
If you can get the trades Gail Simone’s bat girl run is good.

Trades of Angela asgard’s assassin/queen of hel by Marguerite Bennett (co-writer) Tom Brevoort said they were the most cerebral comics he’d read and then cancelled them. He’s a fedora wearer… literally.. and you guys know the type.

Erica Schultz is rebooting Charmed for dyamite.

I also second the suggestion for the Miss Marvel and Unbeatable Squirrel Girl books.

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

I could sure go for a sentient time-bomb chicken leaping out of an egg

That character was recently seen in Rocket (the current Rocket Raccoon series, committed… I mean, written by Al Ewing).

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

The only reason why the “Fake Geek Girl” is an insult lobbed at women who like comics and videogames is because these manchildren simply cannot accept that these women aren’t romantically interested in them.

It forces them to admit it’s not their geekiness that prevents them from being in a healthy relationship but their toxic mindset that women are somehow their property.

It should also be noted that Marvel sales are tanking because of the whole effort behind the White supremacist faction at Marvel trying to turn Captain America into a Nazi, and even normalizing it by having him lift Mjollnir to deem them worthy.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

3) an Argentinian, Chilean and Brazilian breakaway state from the large Chinese power, currently embroiled in a hot war with that power over territory and to liberate cultures subsumed under it; and

So just to give you my two cents as a South American I really DON’T see that happening. Mainly because Argentinians, Chileans and Brazilians DETEST each other and there are precedents of the opposite happening.

During the war of “Las Malvinas” (Fakland Islands) between Argentina and England, Chile was the only South American country which provided military aid to England and allowed them to land their military planes in Chilean territory. They have detested each other since.

As for Brazilians and Argentinians: they detest each other on account of their soccer rivalry. It gets to the point where they actively cheer for any other team, even if it’s from Europe or any other region, when they make it to the finals of the World Cup. And you’d think that wouldn’t bleed into the political scenario, but as someone who’s been to Argentina and who has family living there, you’d be surprised to find out how deep that rivalry runs.

As for suggestions of countries that are cool with each other in this region of the world: Argentina-Uruguay-Peru; Colombia-Brazil-Ecuador; Colombia-Peru-Brazil; Uruguay-Peru-Paraguay; Bolivia-Venezuela-Ecuador. Good guy Uruguay gets along with everyone (except Chile).

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

Ehhh… I wouldn’t put all the blame on Hydra!Cap. It’s just the latest fuck up in an incredible line of fuck ups*, and outdated mindsets**.

* Most of their events since Secret Wars 2015 were disasters that everybody hated (Avengers: Standoff, and Monsters Unleashed were the only ones who reached “meh”). They apparently don’t know how to market to people not already in their audience. Or don’t know how to market, period, see the first Legacy initiative announcements being mistaken for a variant cover month…

** Over reliance on the direct and speculator market. “No such thing as bad press” mentality. Over saturating the market which hurts the books before their readerships could stabilize. High-prices which they always attempt to raise. And so forth.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Malitia

Well it’s not entirely on Hydra cap but it was a major fuck up. Other things that may count as fuck ups have been killing off popular characters such as Wolverine and Deadpool, just to spite Tweentieth Century Fox who won’t relinquish their rights to X-men and Deadpool, respectively.

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

Deadpool is alive. That was just a joke* for Secret Wars 2015 which killed off almost everybody just to recreate them at the end of the event. There are two Deadpool ongoings currently, he was (is?) also in Uncanny Avengers, and there are also the minis, and the countless cameos.

Wolverine… yeah. he is nominally dead. There is an Old Man Logan though in at least 3 X-Books and his solo. And that’s not counting all his children and clones. ^^;

* He got to haunt his then wife’s tie-in.

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

If you want to know who did get the truly shitty end of the pissing contest (I’m mixing metaphors again, aren’t I?): The Fantastic Four.

But those characters aren’t dead, just half of the team is off to rebuild the multiverse.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Malitia

Really? Wow, I guess I haven’t updated much since comics are hard to come by where I live. Sad that Wolverine remains dead, but I guess that will remain as such until the rights to X-men expire for Fox (or at least until they cut a similar deal they did with Sony and Spiderman).

PaganReader - Misandrist Spinster

Everyone always forgets that Marvel let Spencer make Magneto into a Nazi too.

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

@PaganReader

I cannot confirm or deny this. I’ve seen the cover, but I’m trying to ignore this event as completely as possible (kind of a futile endeavor several of my books tie-in, but I’m trying), so I’ve no clue how the factions actually are in it. :/

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@Scildfreja:
Where’s the subsaharan African culture? 😛 We always get left out. Ethiopians are something very different from the rest of Africa.

4srs though, it looks interesting.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m speaking as outsider, so please everyone feel free to let me know if I’m spouting nonsense here.

Maybe it’s not just content that’s the issue? It’s my understanding that historically a big part of comic culture has been hanging out at the comic book store. The past couple of decades, it’s been more and more difficult for independent book stores -whatever they specialize in – to stay open. Since Amazon has become such a behemoth, that’s really accelerated. Maybe the lack of physical locations for fans to meet and congregate has caused existing fans to drift away from the culture and potential fans to not be captured? I know I used to be way more invested in music when I would go to music stores and flip through the used CDs. There was something about the environment where I was at a physical location, seeing the album cover art, seeing posters and hearing cool music playing in the store that really facilitated interest. Downloading or streaming online just isn’t the same. It’s no fun. I don’t think piracy is the only thing hurting music sales. Music is an art form and iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, etc. are sterile. They make you feel more like you’re consuming a product than engaging with an art form. Maybe that’s how it is with comics now that people more and more have to order online?

Could be talking out of my ass here, but just a thought!

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

I’m not that qualified either (not from the USA; I read mostly in digital) but that’s seems to be a problem too. But the direct market (comic book stores) are an incredibly convoluted topic. (Has stuff like US comic book distribution basically being a monopoly, the speculator market being a thing, the comic book crash of the late 90s being a thing etc.)

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Axe, thank you for your reply! You have the same concerns I’ve had, so that’s a relief. I didn’t dig deeply into the culture of the Selassian League in my description of them (The EAI culture), because I don’t know if the corrections I was planning on making were significant enough to overcome them!

I feel like I’m sort of caught in between a rock and a hard place based on the worst of western stereotyping. If my description of their culture is “extended family groups and focus on local community,” I worry that a white western person will read that as “tribal” and fill in the blanks with racist nonsense. Especially considering how the mere word “Ethiopia” can often engender thoughts of starvation and mud huts instead of one of the worlds’ most vibrant and growing economies. I’m having a real problem quashing those racist and uninformed sentiments without also white-washing the actual culture!

To give a bit more depth on what I’m working with right now; the Selassians organize themselves democratically in a republic, with each community group having a representative. Socially these community groups are basically a small set of extended families, typically all working together in the same or related professions. There are problems with this sort of organization: They’re patriarchal and the “vote” of a community will more often than not represent the wishes of the patriarchal heads instead of the needs of the community. This can lead to a lot of ignored groups, and I intend for this sort of community strife to be a major focus of their culture right now, leading to a fragmentation of the community group into smaller units.

(The intention there is to represent the fragmentation of the traditional Ethiopian culture caused by urbanization and the current flight to the city. Provide a metaphor for modern-day issues, etc, etc.)

That’s the sort of goals I have for that culture – I want to blend together the trials of the modern day Addis Ababa and its outskirts with a touch of medieval and colonial history, and then translate it into a science fiction setting where there’s no multinational corporations hindering their growth.

But you’re right – the very concept of “advanced” is a Western one which I don’t necessarily want to carry into this project! Frankly, all of the players in the world I’m working on are “advanced” by those metrics, almost equally. I need some new metrics!

Thank you for commenting, and I will try to correct. If you have other thoughts I’m delighted to hear them!

@Diego, thank you! I didn’t realize that you all detested one another so much (ah, national politics, goodness me). That’s certainly something I would want to carry into this project. I really want to tell some of the stories of fighting for independence that took place in South America with the cultures involved here.

Odd as it may sound, though, that encourages me to use Argentina, Brazil and Chile as models even more (though I can’t believe I forgot about good guy Uruguay). This nation (Verdentinia) is supposed to be fractured and boiling with internal divisiveness. They’re mostly unified because of a common threat, but have some very deep-seated rivalries and differences. Specifically, some of the states within that nation are deeply invested in continuing the war to try to liberate others, while other states would rather just sue for peace and work on rebuilding.

(I’d be lying if I didn’t say this is also supposed to be a metaphor of the current fractured zeitgeist of the United States, minus the fascism.)

You’ve chastised me to do my homework, though. You’ve shone a light on some huge gaps in my knowledge, and I’m very grateful. I’ll go back to doing some basic research and history reading before I pile into that again. And if you have other thoughts, or things you might be cool to add that would make the cultures feel more right, I’d be happy to hear!

Thank you all!

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

That character was recently seen in Rocket (the current Rocket Raccoon series, committed… I mean, written by Al Ewing).

That is simply awesome. Now I must read that.

TheKND
TheKND
3 years ago

@PaganReader Oh, yeah, I remember. The canon Auschwitz-survivor of the Marvel universe. Gotta love those great decisions. Why not make another Clone War issue too?

Malitia
Malitia
3 years ago

@Gussie Jives

This is the series (seems to be a stealth mini, or canceled at issue #6 ^^; stealth mini is more likely though Rocket Raccoon and/or Groot comics are generally that.):
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket_Vol_1

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Scildfreja:
Where’s the subsaharan African culture? 😛 We always get left out. Ethiopians are something very different from the rest of Africa.

4srs though, it looks interesting.

@EJ, lol, I actually thought “Jees, I should do something with South Africa or EJ will comment” while I was working on it 😉

Subsaharan Africa is a very different pickle, and I didn’t want to just mush them in with some other culture! I do want to include them, though – the story of those cultures deserves it!

My intention is, if this is successful, to spread out from this one world into other colony worlds. As the Protagonist World regains spaceflight and starts exploring what’s happened in the thousand years since they were separated, they’ll meet up with the descendants of the USA, European powers, and all the other players that are “typical” to trope’y science fiction. Specifically, I’d like to portray the stereotypical sci-fi cultures (Space America! Space British Empire! Space Dynastic China!) as not being dominant. I want to use this story to reinforce the idea that the dominance of Europe in the modern world is due to a fluke of geography and ecosystem, and not due to any inherent superiority.

South Africa will show up out there! If you have suggestions on what might be good themes for that, I’d love to hear them. I had flirted with re-telling the story of the Boer War from a science fiction perspective, but I’m a bit leery of it, given how easily racist depictions can crop up in that. You’re far better placed to suggest things, if you have any ideas!

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

It forces them to admit it’s not their geekiness that prevents them from being in a healthy relationship but their toxic mindset that women are somehow their property.

I think it goes deeper than that. Being a dorky kid growing up, the way that geekdom was always presented in the zeitgeist was that there was a certain self-loathing that had to accompany it. “Geekdom” was a place where you socialized because you couldn’t be the sporty kid or the popular kid. In the pecking order, it was the place you weren’t supposed to want to be, but you came to terms with its trappings (liking comic books, computers, technology, video games etc) and eventually grew accustomed to it.

So when a conventionally attractive woman expressed interest in those trappings, there’s a defensiveness that comes (at least in part) from the fact that such a women doesn’t have to be relegated to that social strata the way that you feel you have been. So you’re thinking “Why is she here? Why is she talking to me? What’s her agenda? She doesn’t have to be stuck at the dork table in the cafeteria with us. She’s attractive enough to be with those popular guys. Is she trying to prank us or something?” It’s completely irrational and petty, but I was in that frame of mind myself when I was navigating the social circles of Northern Secondary (depression didn’t help).

Now, the mature and well-adjusted human being is supposed to realize that everyone feels social pressures to conform and women and girls have their own just as men and boys do and we should support each other in whatever we want to do, particularly those that choose to buck those trends. These people still seem to be trapped in those schoolyard cliques–perhaps some of them still are.

Ceefax
Ceefax
3 years ago

Objecting to angry fanboys calling you sjws because you are multiple women with milkshake – infantilising

Calling people sjws because multiple women drinking milkshake – not infantilising.

I don’t get how these people are calling these women infantilised while having a tantrum over a milkshake selfie without any self awareness tbh.
I’m sure there’s no sexism in that at all and that the reactionary ranters who claim to give a shit about comics actually do

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

The issue with the idea that Marvel comic sales are crumbling is that they’re not. Or, at least, we can’t know if they are. Comic sales figures only represent a portion of the total, cos they only count monthly, single issue, physical units. Trades aren’t counted in the metrics, nor are digital. And for various reasons, there’s a certain subset of fans more or less likely to buy from the local shop vs comixology. The company Diamond has a monopoly on retail comics, and they’re the ones who make the sales charts, so they only count their business. Which leads Marvel to chase that demo to get their numbers up. It’s a shitshow. If anyone knows the history of the wrestling business, this’ll seem somewhat familiar. And it didn’t go well for either WCW or TNA…

@Scild
*reads* Cool stuff, buddy!

If my description of their culture is “extended family groups and focus on local community,” I worry that a white western person will read that as “tribal” and fill in the blanks with racist nonsense

But, like, that describes most of European history. Fuckin white people…

I need some new metrics!

After all is said and done, more people remember Michelangelo by his paintings than his inventions. Civilizations are the same way. A society is ultimately judged by its art 🙂

Thank you for commenting, and I will try to correct. If you have other thoughts I’m delighted to hear them!

If I think of something, I’ll let you know. I do have a question tho. If this nation stretches from the Horn of Africa to the Subcontinent, why’s it called Ethiopia or the Selassian League? Conquest, I assume?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Axe,

But, like, that describes most of European history. Fuckin white people…

I know, right? That’s exactly the problem! Tribal extended-family groups in western Europe, pre-Rome? Noble precursors to great civilizations. After Rome? Why, them’s proper civilized! Same god-damn thing but it’s in Africa? Barbarian hooordes.

That’s actually one of the biggest reasons I made the Scandinavian nation semi-nomadic. They draw heavily from pre-Christian Scandinavia, and are going to be an inversion of expectations. (Though no, they aren’t going to be horn-helmeted vikings either. They’re going to be traders and explorers that generally prefer to avoid violence, more like modern day Scandinavians)

So yeah, it’s a big problem and I don’t really know how to approach it without being an insensitive clod. Womp womp.

After all is said and done, more people remember Michelangelo by his paintings than his inventions. Civilizations are the same way. A society is ultimately judged by its art 🙂

True! You’re exactly right. I had always intended for them to have magnificent art. One of the big differences between the cultures I’m writing and our modern-day cultures is that they see the inherent value in art for art’s sake – and they have the wealth and leisure to make it. Architecture will be as much about beauty as it is about functionality, clothing the same; everything will have a touch of artistry. I will do some drawing and thinking on the art traditions of my little petri dish and see what I come up with, thank you!

If I think of something, I’ll let you know. I do have a question tho. If this nation stretches from the Horn of Africa to the Subcontinent, why’s it called Ethiopia or the Selassian League? Conquest, I assume?

More just economic and cultural dominance. Plus – well, the setting isn’t Earth. A slice of the population of that region of the world went out and participated in terraforming /colonizing the planet where the story takes place, and it happened to draw mostly from Ethiopia, with smaller groups of South Indian and Arabian cultures. Add in a few ecological/political disasters to weld the groups into a single culture and you get the Selassians.

Overall, I’ve tried to avoid war as a heavy theme. It’s there, certainly – these are humans after all – but I want exploration and non-violent conflict to be more central. Call me an optimist.

Thanks again!

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

@Gussie: And this in spite of all the movies where the geek wins the gorgeous woman.

Part of it is that adolescent guys tend to assume that girls judge their attractiveness by the same standards as other guys, so they think that their sex appeal (or whatever you want to call it) is proportional to their status in the male pecking order. Therefore, only unattractive desperate girls would want to socialize with them. It doesn’t occur to them that an attractive girl might prefer to socialize with guys who have shared interests instead of guys that are merely high on the pecking order. So they are confused, and wonder what her real reason is.

This is similar to the incels’ belief that women reject them because of some relatively insignificant physical characteristic (which might actually be important — to other guys) instead of because they are unpleasant to interact with.

History Nerd
History Nerd
3 years ago

Most comics are sold at independent stores, and many stores have a lot of old or used comics and don’t report their sales to some central organization.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Let’s not forget good old fashioned objectification. Women are supposed to know their place. Attractive women should love the aggrieved geek for who he is. That’s her job. But she shouldn’t expect that in return. She’s just supposed to provide validation and sex. That a woman could be a fellow geek is a violation of the movie ideal. She’s going to be his equal and have her own opinions and interests. She might even – horror of all horrors – know more about some aspects of their shared interests.

Conventionally attractive non-geek women aren’t trophies and objects either, of course. But because they’re less likely to interact much with the aggrieved geek guy, he can still simultaneously pedestalize and hate them from a distance. Geek women in the same spaces, are close enough to seem like the real human beings that women are and that challenges their much simpler preconceived notions about women as non-human things. It’s a lot easier to try and drive women out of “their” spaces than it is to just adjust their attitudes toward women and treat us like three dimensional humans.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

I’ll go back to doing some basic research and history reading before I pile into that again. And if you have other thoughts, or things you might be cool to add that would make the cultures feel more right, I’d be happy to hear!

Well, I’m a Peruvian so I only have some general knowledge into the politics and history of the aforementioned countries. But I’ll try to shed a light regardless:

The main distinction that should be brought to light here is that Portuguese is the official language in Brazil. This is relevant because the colonizing countries of Spain and Portugal had clashes during the 18th century regarding the borders of their colonies, clashes which would then be carried over by the settlers who populated the Spanish and Portuguese colonies respectively.

It should also be noted that initially Argentina and Chile were in good standing. This considering the fact that Chileand and Argentinians formed part of a single liberating army under José de San Martin, which fought from South to North, trying to emancipate South America from Spain. The fighting from North to South was handled by libertador Simon Bolivar.

As far as racial identity and politics, Argentina and Chile have many parallels. For starters both have a strong presence of European settlers (Italians in the case of Argentinians and English in the case of Chileans). Both countries also have a history with fascism (Videla in Argentina and Pinochet in Chile), and both countries had a period where they decided to actively exterminate their indigenous population. This is sort of the reason why many Nazis decided to seek haven in Argentina after WWII, it’s a very White country.

To Argentina’s credit however, I haven’t found it nearly as racist or xenophobic as Chile. Now, this may be because Argentinians have some sort of soft spot for Peruvians considering we were the only country that aided them militarily during the War of the Falkland Islands but generally the only bad opinion we have of Argentinians is that they are notorious braggarts.

Chile on the other hand seems to have problems with nearly everybody. With a lot of recorded xenophobia against Peruvians, Bolivians and Colombians, who are on the darker side of Latinos.

Racially speaking Brazil is similar to Colombia, meaning you have a lot of Black Latinos and then a minority of economically privileged White Latinos. Very much like in the US, in other words.

Politically speaking, the current governments of Brazil and Chile are socialist, however there is some serious issues regarding corruption in Brazil being investigated so there is a lot of social tensions and clashes developping in Brazil, which has been more politically and socially unstable than either Chile or Argentina.

Chile has been, since its foundation, the most politically stable country of the region. The country’s liberals and conservatives came together in consensus during its foundation, to lay out a plan of governance on issues in which both parties could agree. Thus they had 4 presidents in a period of 40 years (two terms of 5 years each) in comparison to Peru’s 27 presidents (in the same 40 years) and Bolivia’s 32 presidents (in the same period).

Since Chile is an entirely coastal country it has always been reliant on trade, but this benefitted it inmensely considering the Valparaiso Harbor was the very first stop of traders coming in from Europe before the Panama Canal was built. This was obviously because, before the canal, traders from all over the world had to sail around South America to get to the western harbors in the Americas, thus Valparaiso was the first stop.

In regards to the economy there are several blocs and treaties in place between the countries. One of them being the free trade agreement of the Mercosur between Argentina-Peru-Colombia-Bolivia. It essentially lets us visit the aforementioned countries without a visa. Other economic and ideological blocs would be Venezuela-Ecuador-Bolivia, in regard to the advancement of the Bolivarian agenda, which is the integration of all Latin America.

Regarding that last issue it should be noted that the aforementioned Simón Bolivar, the libertador which freed Colombia, Venezuela, Peru (among others) from Spain, had a dream of unifying all of South America into a single country. He tried to work towards that end but his efforts were not very well received among the countries which wanted to retain their independence.

His vision was that a unified South America was the only thing which would protect it from invasion or colonization from Western powers.

Also, on the Chinese thing you mentioned: I’m not entirely sure about Chile’s case, but the Chinese have mostly developped investments in Peru, Bolivia and Brazil.

These are very random and loose precisions but hopefully they might help you with your world-building.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@Ms Unnythnes, Esq:
That’s a great intention and I support it fully.

In terms of African stuff, are you looking for cultural trappings to steal or are you looking for history to retell?

If the former, then the various Nguni peoples might be very interesting. Eastern South Africa is a climate utterly unlike the temperate zone where many of your players might live, which means that cultures which have adapted to that region will come across both as very foreign and also as very plausible. Their way of live basically makes sense, and if you lived there then you’d live like that too. This, to me, is the holy grail of a good sci-fi society.

If the latter, the the Boer war is probably a poor source, as the Vietnam war is a far more interesting guerrilla war (don’t tell my grandparents I said that, though.) I think you may get a lot more traction out of a retelling of the breakup of the Karanga empire and the resulting migrations; or out of the fall of the Sotho-Tswana and the rise of the successor states such as the Zulu and Afrikaners. Those are wonderful stories, and because your players won’t be familiar with them, they’ll come across as fresh and unique.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

aaaaand saved. Thank you, @Diego! That’s exactly the sort of thing I would like to capture in microcosm. I was intending to have a Bolivar-esque character in the storyline, specifically with the goal of helping the various fractured cultures come together. Hadn’t decided on how successful that would ultimately be, though. I will look into the Mercosur, that sounds like an interesting first-stop for digging deeper into how a syncretic South American superpower might look.

You mention a history of fascism and committing genocide against indigenous populations; I wanted to include a little bit of this as a dark side of the story, too. Specifically, while the nation is fighting to liberate client states held under the major Imperial power that used to control them, they in turn are using their southernmost hinterland for raw resource extraction and are basically bulldozing the cultures that are living there, “for the greater good”. It’s something I want to approach carefully, though, because I don’t want to stamp them with a “these are the bad guys” label, and it’s very easy to do that with these themes.

You’ve given me a lot to think about, thank you!

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Scildfreja Unnyðnes

Ethiopia. Has become one of my obsessions. The government has been doing some terrific work in agroecology and agroforestry to improve food and water supplies. There are also some excellent NGOs – as well as the traditional Xtian orthodox church.

Just watch this video from 9 mins onward.

(I’m rather taken by the idea of alien invader-colonialist trees destroying the soil and now being banished – hopefully vanquished – by the established religion taking up the battle in favour of indigenous trees.)

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@EJ,

My intentions with this are less to make an individual story for a small group of players, more to build a world from which others (and myself) could build stories. Less “I want to make a cool world to roleplay a thing with my friends” and more “I want to make a three hundred page hardcover product to kickstart and print ten thousand of.”

So there’s room for both!

On the “cultural trappings” side of things, I want to keep from being too heavy-handed. I want these cultures to feel as if they are what you’d get if you took the parent cultures, shook them up, isolated them with each other, and then let the clock run for 1500 years. I want people to see hints of those original cultures, sometimes strong, but for them to feel as if they have their own identity. Like, what would a Saxon farmer think of modern England, what would they find that felt familiar? Not a whole lot, sure, but there would be some things.

I will certainly look into the Nguni though! The sort of landscape you describe is relatively uncommon on the planet I’m building right now, but it’s going to play centrally in one of the other colony worlds which is far more arid, with deserts and savanna separating pockets of water-rich forest and landlocked mountainous lakes. Sounds ideal. (I am also intending on drawing from the plains First Nations of North America for this, and I think the interactions between the two could be really interesting)

That sort of leads to the second part of your point, about retelling stories. I agree with you that the Boer war is a poor choice – it’s too familiar, leaning on that old Imperial English influence I’m trying to avoid. I’ll look into the collapse of the Karanga Empire instead – the story rings a bell for me but I can’t recall the details. Whee, story time!

The general story of the overall worlds-beyond-the-protagonist-world is one of disintegration and balkanization. Earth retreats from its colony worlds a thousand years ago due to some mysterious circumstance, leaving all of the colonies isolated from their major industrial source. Some worlds (such as the protagonist world, as of yet unnamed) fall off the map entirely, lacking ships capable of opening Rosen Bridges to travel between solar systems. Others maintain spaceflight, but are too focused on reconstructing local infrastructure to travel in an organized way. Wars between colonies spark off as they try to claim the infrastructure of lost Earth, try to subjugate one another for raw power, raid one another, etc. No organizing forces emerge to keep things together for some time.

This is the playground where I wanted the “Space America”, “Space British Empire”, etc, to emerge – just, in really non-standard way. Space America exists as a couple of spin-off worlds. The conservative, fascistic elements went off to colonize their own world on their own and are now a right nuisance to everyone. The progressive elements, along with Mexico, Cuba, Canada and a few other friends went off to make their own world, along with some orbital colonies that have become everyone-is-welcome freeports. Everyone else went through similar phases, with cultures splitting along ideological lines during the colonization era.

That’s the context in which Space South Africa would exist. I can see how the ideological split would form in SA culture, One group being relatively polyglot, peaceful, and syncretic, and another being more xenophobic and traditionalist. But I’m sure you have some better insights on that than I do!

Thank you!

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@mildlymagnificent, I know right? The video you linked is perfect, it really shows the ecological pragmatism that I want to be front and centre for them in what I’m writing. I’m convinced that the 21st century will belong to Africa and India, and the changes that are happening in Ethiopia and Somalia are a bit part of why I believe that.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

@Grumpy

And this in spite of all the movies where the geek wins the gorgeous woman.

But that trope is never really portrayed as a geek finding the conventionally-attractive “girl” interesting as a person; as you say, she’s a prize to be “won” away from the Jock/Preppy. It’s as much an act of revenge as it is triumph (“Revenge of the Nerds”).

Furthermore, that “triumph” is typically portrayed as occurring after a long series of humiliating mishaps played off for laughs. The male ego is fragile at the best of times, so I can understand how looming that fear of rejection is, but

It doesn’t occur to them that an attractive girl might prefer to socialize with guys who have shared interests instead of guys that are merely high on the pecking order.

Exactly. Their perceived status on the pecking order has been so defining and ingraining that they can barely imagine somebody not like them even being interested in geek properties, let alone actually wanting to socialize openly about them. The “Fake Geek Girl” trope alone demonstrates how malignant this mindset can be. A part of me wishes I could sit these guys down in a room and tell them “Yeah, you know these stories you tell yourself about ‘nerd’ or ‘gamer persecution’… they’re all bullshit. People grow up liking different things. Some girls read comics just like you did. Others are just getting into it and that’s okay too. Grow up.”

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

EDIT – my comment above was for the first nine minutes! The 9-minutes-on is also a part of what I was looking into. I wanted to ask the question of whether it’s right to meddle in natural ecosystems for human’s gain, etc. This all taking place on a terraformed world, so it used to be a barren rock! I could really work in the concepts this video brings in, though. Religion was always going to play a big role, and that’s a really interesting way to bring it along! Thanks much for sharing!

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

Conventionally attractive non-geek women aren’t trophies and objects either, of course. But because they’re less likely to interact much with the aggrieved geek guy, he can still simultaneously pedestalize and hate them from a distance. Geek women in the same spaces, are close enough to seem like the real human beings that women are and that challenges their much simpler preconceived notions about women as non-human things. It’s a lot easier to try and drive women out of “their” spaces than it is to just adjust their attitudes toward women and treat us like three dimensional humans.

Bingo. Hence the overly aggressive gatekeeping. But there’s also the fear element: the fear that if too many women “invade” “their” space, that they’ll start changing things in a way that makes them uncomfortable. Anita Sarkeesian seemed to trigger that in GamerGaters something fierce: “OMG, she’s working with devs! She’s going to make all games SJWey! Exterminate! Exterminate!” Zoe Quinn was a dev herself, which was even more heinous a transgression, and not just a dev, but one who got mainstream attention.

There are so many ways to slice this irrationality, but it still adds up to textbook bullying. I feel for those on the receiving end of this barrage, it’s something nobody should have to put up with.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@Scildfreja:

I wanted to ask the question of whether it’s right to meddle in natural ecosystems for human’s gain, etc. This all taking place on a terraformed world, so it used to be a barren rock!

Even here on Earth, that ship sailed about 10,000 years ago. Even the more “harmonious with nature” cultural groups, such as various indigenous cultures, in fact became keystone predators in their ecosystems, altering the balance of other species (and of fire and other non-living occurrences), and the removal of all human influence from those ecosystems would crash or change them as surely as the replacement of the indigenes (or their culture) with colonizers with more aggressive/extractive land use behaviors would/did.

On this general topic (history of humans in interaction with one another and the land), two other points:

1. The proximate reason for Western European dominance pretty much has to be the fact that the Atlantic powers beat the rest of the world to tall-ship technology, which made possible for the first time widespread coastal and transoceanic projections of force. Prior to that there was only Polynesian-type island hopping, which sufficed to conquer uninhabited lands (up to and including Australia), but proved ineffective to conquer any already-inhabited land. (Australia, once initially conquered, wasn’t conquered again for 60,000 years, when Brits in tall ships turned up. The Norse island-hopped across the north Atlantic, but couldn’t establish permanent footholds in Britain, Greenland, or Vinland, which were already inhabited. The portion of their diaspora to become persistently established was Iceland, formerly empty of humans. Island hoppers are easy to repel by even as low-tech defenders as the Dorset people, for logistical reasons. They can raid, sometimes, but apparently can not hold territory against a native opposition.)

That the same group of powers then went on to beat the rest of the world to steam engines just helped consolidate their gains.

2. I’ll again note that Peter Turchin’s Cliodynamica site has a lot of peer-reviewed, published scientific research on the topic of historical dynamics. Your mention of plains Indians reminded me of the significance of nomadic raiding horse-archers to causing the rise of states and empires among settled peoples, in self-defense. The actual plains Indians motivated the rise of the highly organized, settled Neolithic culture of Cahokia in what’s now part of middle America; Mongols and others in the Asian steppes, empires from Rome to China.

http://peterturchin.com/cliodynamica/

I’ll again warn that the comments section receives visits from time to time from the “HBD” wing of the alt-right, particularly Jayman and hbd_chick, who don’t however seem to receive much endorsement from Turchin, and that Turchin stops every so often to push the dubious paleo diet fad. Might be best to stick to the more scientific, history-minded articles that have data and reference peer-reviewed research.

Gussie Jives
Gussie Jives
3 years ago

Even the more “harmonious with nature” cultural groups, such as various indigenous cultures, in fact became keystone predators in their ecosystems

They didn’t call it “Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump” for nothing!
comment image

ETA: Image not rendering. Ah well, it still makes me giggle. “The Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump World Heritage Site.” Buffalo lemmings!

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja:

No problem, glad to be of help!

If you are looking for a unifying cause among Latin Americans, resistance against foreign interventionism could be a thing. It’s not like Peru has forgotten the likes of Fujimori (backed by Clinton); or like Chile has forgotten Pinochet; or Argentina has forgotten either Videla or Menem. Capitalist policies, either backed through the IMF or at the point of a dictator’s gun have being constant thorought Latin America. So it does tend to be the one issue where all our interests converge: sovereignty.

An issue of relevance you could look up would be the School of the Americas, an entity through which the US ideologized many of the would be Latin American dictators against socialism and communism in general.

@Gussie Jives:

Well that does make sense. The idea that “women get away with geekiness” (they don’t obviously) and should be shunned from the geek scene is something that could be conjured up by incels, and another one of their perceived slights.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

I agree with you, @Surplus – we’re well past the point where we can just let nature “do its thing” here. We control something like 98% of the Earth’s biomass, it would be criminally (and suicidally) irresponsible to not consider ourselves as custodians of the planet.

But it’s still a good story, I think! It’s less about whether we need to do so in order to survive or thrive; I’m looking more at the ethical ramifications. Is there an ethical element to just leaving nature alone? Like in my story, there’s a low level tension between the Selassians (West African) and the Asgardians (Scandinavians). Both cultures recognize that their ancestors engineered the world they live in, and pretty much everything in the world is genetically engineered to fit a niche. Where they differ is in is how they see their responsibility to the ecosystem that’s at this point been around for almost 1500 years. The Selassians think that their role is to optimize the ecosystem – to repair damage, recover deserts into fertile land, etc. To make the world into a garden where life can flourish. The Asgardians, on the other hand, think that their role is to protect the ecosystem – to allow it to evolve and grow as it will without outside interference. They’ll clean environmental damage, but they’ll leave the desert alone, even if it’s spreading into fertile territory.

It also leads into questions of whether GMOs are good, and what humanitys’ role is as gardener. That’s the sort of thing I’m looking to explore. So, parallel to the comment you made! I don’t dispute any of that. Also, mmm, Cahokia. Dorset. I do loves me some neolithic culture. A very neat site you point out. I will go digging!

Regarding Head-Smashed-In, I don’t live far from there actually. Well, okay, a few hours. Still. It’s a fun sounding name, but it’s a horrifying place in my opinion. I mean, as a plains tribe it’s the most efficient way to get food and to just survive, and I totally understand how important it was to the Blackfoot, but wow. Buffalo runs in general are scary as heck. Not my favourite thing!

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
3 years ago

@Diego, that’s why I sorta wanted a fractious group of parent cultures for the nation actually! Sovereignty. I am embarrassingly uneducated about South America, but I’ve known at least that your history is about fighting for independence and struggle with foreign powers trying to dictate how you live, often through economic policies and propping up dictatorial regimes. I’m trying to write something that asks some questions about sovereignty for their theme – how far is one justified to go in fighting for sovereignty? In fighting for the sovereignty of another? Is it better to be a comfortable client state of another power, or a chaotic but independent nation? That sort of stuff.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnýðnes

Well, that’s the thing. The one point in history in which South American countries have seen eye to eye was when they fought off the Spanish. South American independence was very much unlike independence gained in other countries, where each country overthrew the rule of the colonial powers that be and then let everybody else handle their own problems.

No, South Americans understood that allowing the Spanish to remain in even a single territory of South America would allow them to launch a counterattack at a later time and reclaim their lost territory. That is why they went through so much trouble to fight for the independence of every South American country. What is more baffling and interesting is that this wasn’t a coordinated effort. It was spontaneous. People implicitly understood what it meant.

Thus you had two main libertadores fighting for the independence of South America on two different fronts, with armies made up of different nationalities.

It was so uncoordinated and the opposing visions were such that when Simon Bolivar and San Martin met in Lima, the former told the other “Two suns cannot shine upon the same sky”.

Bolivar wanted the unification of South America. San Martin wanted a independent countries.

In the end history proved Bolivar right: the lack of unity made South America vulnerable to colonialism and American and British interventionism. South America went from being a Spanish colony to a British and American colony (at least economically speaking although also military speaking at times).

Most of this isn’t even ancient history. I was 14 years old when Alberto Fujimori announced his third illegal mandate in Peru and Bill Clinton appeared on TV and endorsed him, on account of his libertarian policies. Pinochet and Videla weren’t so long ago either. And I was also alive when Menem was wrecking havoc in Argentina.

South America has only begun breaking away from American influence during George W. Bush. So you could say we’ve never actually had sovereignty. That could be a unifying point for South Americans in regard to the purpose of world-building.

As for differences in culture, there are many. Throw in soccer disputes and we become downright savages.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Agent of the FemiNest Collective; Keeper of a Hell Toupee, and all-around Intergalactic Meanie
3 years ago

Semi-OT:

Does anyone know of someplace that does appraisals of some comic book related items? I have some old advertising giveaways (amongst other things) that I’d like to sell sometime, but have no idea how to find out if any of it’s worth anything or not.

I seriously don’t want to stick some of this stuff up on eBay for a few dollars, then find out the buyer turned around and resold it for several hundred, ya know? IF what I have is truly that valuable, I rather that money went into my pockets to pay my own bills off.

So, any ideas?

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

[W]hen Simon Bolivar and San Martin met in Lima, the former told the other “Two suns cannot shine upon the same sky”.

Someone should tell them about Kepler-16b. 🙂

So you could say we’ve never actually had sovereignty.

You did once, at least, as the Aztec and Inca civilizations, before Spain first invaded, and you may again quite soon. The US has kept other would-be colonial powers’ mitts off you, and now its own influence is waning. It will be an ex-empire by 2045, much as Britain was by 1945. Just don’t let China become too big an influence. Tax the heck out of foreign owned real estate and other foreign owned investments, before they drive your housing beyond affordability and locally-owned industries out of business; and create at least a mutual defense pact of some kind.