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creepy entitled babies men who should not ever be with women ever reddit

And the Creepy Boss of the Week Award goes to … this dude posting on Reddit

He’s just trying to help

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By David Futrelle

I don’t even know how to begin to summarize this very long and very creepy post from the Relationship Advice subreddit from a male boss who seems just a teensy weensy bit too “concerned” about a female employee’s relationship with her boyfriend.

So you’re going to just have to read it for yourself. But here’s a fun game you can play as you make your way through it: See how many paragraphs you can get through before your skin starts to crawl!

Me [32M] with my coworker/friend [24/F] of one year, how do I let her know she is in an abusive relationship with her bf[24m] (self.relationship_advice) submitted 1 day ago by menumessages So a little background to start off with: I work for a nonprofit where I'm the supervisor of 10 people that work under me. Last fall a young woman, lets call her Jennifer started to work with us through an outside fellowship. Now she's the kind of person that just commands attention as soon as she walks into the room. She is very pretty but just has one of those personalities that everyone likes you know? I had to train her when she first started but was very surprised by how quickly she picked everything up. We do a lot of legal work and it's not easy for people without previous experience to learn so quickly. So this should give you a good idea of the kind of person she is. I immediately took a liking to her because of her work but also how easy she was to talk to. During our training, I would say we became pretty close. So much so that I would text her outside of work about non work related stuff. Also she sends me snapchats a lot, random stuff like shows shes watch like friends do. We even go to happy hour alone sometimes and I think I am the closest to her at work. One time she even had lunch with my mom and I when my mom was visiting town. So she is someone I consider a very good friend and want the best for her. Now here's the problem. About two months into her working with us, I found out she has a boyfriend. TO CLARIFY I DO NOT HAVE ANY ROMANTIC INTERESTS AND DO NOT CARE THAT SHE HAS A BOYFRIEND. I really don't care that she has a boyfriend but felt a little manipulated that she never mentioned him before. I am supervisor, been training her for a few months, we have been talking about a lot of stuff so it just comes off as hiding something. People who work in small offices will know what I'm talking about. It was a little hard for me to trust her after that but I kept it to myself. She was still a great employee and her having a boyfriend did not change anything because apparently she has been with this guy for 5 years now. He doesn't live in the same city and they barely see each other from what I understand. So months go by and everything is going really well. So much so that I was even thinking about recommending her for a promotion. We became even closer during this time. About two weeks ago our parent group is hosted a fundraising gala. I asked Jennifer if she wold like to go with me and she said yes. I always have a great time with her so I was really looking forward to it. The night of the gala I called to see when I should pick her up and she said her boyfriend was in town and he would drop her off so she will just meet me there. This is the first red flag I noticed. Is this guy really that insecure that he can't even let her date take her to this gala? Five years and this insecure? That's a problem. But I just agree and say okay I will meet her there. I get to the gala and start to mingle. She eventually gets there but I don't approach her. Honestly, still pretty bothered by what happened earlier so I wanted her to come to me and apologize. She came up to me and we talked but she never apologized for what she did but I ignored it. Soon we were talking just like before and honestly really enjoying each other's company. Here's when I noticed the second red flag. Jennifer and I were talking to another couple when she excused herself because she had to take a call from her boyfriend. I thought it was pretty rude and she has never done something like this before. A little later she comes back and says that her boyfriend is picking her up and she will leave early. THIRD RED FLAG. She was very much looking forward to this night and suddenly she wants to leave early? You know when you can just tell someone isn't happy in their situation? Yeah I definitely felt it right away. A little while later he gets there and I shit you not, this idiot walked into the gala wearing shorts and a t shirt. I almost wanted to laugh but I didn't want to embarrass him. Jennifer introduces me to him and I make pleasantries but I do make a joke about how must feel a little out of place. He says something like "nah, not really sticking around so not a big deal." Okay? I don't really get what that has to do with anything. My point was that he was at a black tie event dressed like he is going to the gym, I don't care if you're for five minutes or five hours, that's weird. So you can already see he is getting an attitude with me for no reason. I follow up with, "well there are some really important people here" and his response was something like, "I've met senators wearing flip flops, I think I'll be okay." Holy shit, I'm getting angry writing this. But you see what I'm talking about right? He completely rubbed me the wrong way. So anyways, as she is leaving, I tell her to let me know if she gets home okay. It gets around midnight and she hasn't sent me a single message. So I sent her a text and no reply. I sent her another around 1am saying I am worried and just to let me know if she is okay. No reply. I have a hard time sleeping that night because I am genuinely concerned. It's just the kind of person I am. I need to know my friends are okay or it bothers me. I wake up the next morning after getting really bad sleep and she still hasn't responded. This makes me upset because I can see she has uploaded pictures on facebook but yet won't respond to my text. The only explanation is that her boyfriend is the reason. She always responds to me and at most a few hours later. So Sunday night I finally send another message really detailing how upset I was with how she was treating me. Also how I think how much control I feel her boyfriend was exerting over her was really making me lose respect for her. I always thought she is this strong independent woman and suddenly this guy is controlling who she can or can't talk to. Of course I get no reply. Monday, inevitably we see each other at work and she confronts me the first thing in the morning. Before I even get a chance to speak, she says I made her uncomfortable and she wants to just finish her last two months of fellowship without any contact that is not necessary for work. This was about two weeks ago. I was really upset at first but honestly I've done a lot of reading. When you are in an abusive relationship, you stop seeing the world the way it is and only the way the abuser wants you to see. It makes me really sad that I am losing a good friend because her boyfriend has insecurity issues. So a few concerns here. She started dating him 5 years ago meaning she was only 19 and therefore this is pretty much the only adult "relationship" she knows. Also the guy is a lobbyist! She wants to work in public service, help immigrants and refugees but yet dates a lobbyist? Does she really not see the contradiction here? I think over the past five years he has done a good job gaslighting her and it's to the point where it's affecting her relationship with other people and it breaks my heart to see this happen to a good friend. My question is this: what is the best approach to let her know of these concerns I have? How can you make someone who refuses to see reality to actually see what is happening? I have spoken to my mother and we both agree it would be best that she is also there when I approach Jennifer. However, do you think it should just be me alone or it would be better having a motherly figure also there to talk about something this serious? And if we have this conversation and she still refuses to break up with her abusive boyfriend, what are the final steps that I should take? To be frank, I'm not sure I can remain friends with her if she continues to date him. I'm simply not the kind of person who will stick by someone who is willingly ruining their own life. I can't stop thinking about this and haven't gotten any work done today. I really look forward to your suggestions and thank you for all your help. For any of you that are currently in an abusive relationship, get out before it's too late. tl;dr: My pretty good friend is in an abusive relationship but won't notice it. How do I get her to notice for her own good but also the future of our friendship?

Yipes.

In the movie Election, the main characters periodically break frame for brief “confessionals” in which they explain what they think is going on; it doesn’t take long to figure out that, well, they have no idea what’s really going on, and their little monologues are at once self-serving and completely un-self-aware.

Boss man has outdone all of them here.

H/T — @leyawn

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Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger

DIOLIBERAL BRANDO

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Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

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Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Wait a minute.. those gold curls, that pony tail, those wing collars, that’s Giorno Giovanna!comment image

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
3 years ago

Wow, this thread started up again….and now the conversation is about boardgames.

I don’t suppose anyone will care about the old “hex map and cardboard counter” historical wargames? (Back in the ’70s and ’80s with SPI, Avalon Hill, etc. many weren’t that well researched I think but some were OK.

By the way, hello again everyone. Been away getting ready to teach my history class this fall.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
3 years ago

As for meeting potential significant others, in my single days I never “hit on” anyone in person … didn’t seem right [by the way, I dislike that colloquialism “to hit on”. I don’t like the violent reference of hit].

I made a profile on a dating site and put up my handsomest picture (no, I’m not modest ;)) and wrote the most honest and forthright profile I could.

Then one day she who is now Ms. Pavlov’s House saw my profile and said my photo was handsome (yay!) and that I sounded fascinating. Her pictures captured her beauty 100% and I loved LOVED her courageous assertiveness in messaging me first. Then she was so intelligent and soulful in her messages. So we met and went to a yoga class together (which is an amazing first date idea) and then a museum….and then….

🙂

Katz
3 years ago

I don’t suppose anyone will care about the old “hex map and cardboard counter” historical wargames? (Back in the ’70s and ’80s with SPI, Avalon Hill, etc. many weren’t that well researched I think but some were OK.

My husband’s a big fan! We have Flat Top and various others in the closet.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

By the way, does anybody who knows more about Twitter than me know how to mute a keyword from only one person? Either through the official muting thing or through a plugin, whatever does the job.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scented Hard Fucking Chairs and Axelcalibur

Absurd accusations thrown to people you don’t like aside (which DOES happen a lot in political bouts) neoliberalism isn’t so much associated with hard right conservatism. It is mostly defined by economic policy. In essence it’s more of the old “laissez-faire” style capitalism. Neoliberalism is more closely associated with libertarianism or classic liberals (people who follow Austrian economics).

Granted it shouldn’t be thrown to everybody you don’t like, without second thought, because it devalues the word and its meaning; but neoliberal policies are hardly something to scoff at.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

It is mostly defined by economic policy. In essence it’s more of the old “laissez-faire” style capitalism. Neoliberalism is more closely associated with libertarianism or classic liberals (people who follow Austrian economics).

I know, but I’m not seeing how it’s not hard-right (economic) conservatism.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

I’m not contesting it being conservative economics. Thing is conservatism can be defined by two factors at the very least: free market economics and social conservatism. Conservatives like the free market but are also big regarding taking an active role in preserving tradition and [racist and misogynist] cultural norms.

Neoliberals are more socially liberal but free market fanatics, nevertheless. That would be the only difference between them both. Neoliberals almost exclusively allign with conservatives because of free market policies.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Ran out the edit timer: I think you might’ve missed our point; we’re talking about the recent trend of people hurling the word around for such things as “Health care is one of the most important issues in the country, but we won’t be able to get anywhere on it until Trump, McConnell and Ryan are out of power, which means dealing with Trump-Russia ASAP,” “I agree that America needs a stronger welfare system, but it also needs a stronger focus on women’s, PoC’s and LGBT+ rights, so I prefer Hillary’s intersectionality over Bernie’s brogressivism” and “You know that Hillary won the popular vote, right?” Those are all real examples.

Or am I just being mansplained to.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

I’ve seen modern liberalism described as “the belief that gay people should have an equal right to trade on the free market.”

This can also be rendered more bleakly, as “the belief that gay people should have an equal right to starve under an overpass.”

(Full disclosure: I identify as liberal.)

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
3 years ago

@Katz

That’s cool! Flat Top is a real classic (never played it but have seen it, and know it’s a classic). The ones I loved were a series of World War II operational-level games called “Europa”; one for each major campaign in the war. You were supposed to be able to link them all together but the publisher never finished the series

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

Thing is conservatism can be defined by two factors at the very least: free market economics and social conservatism.

These are not two separate things. These are the same thing. “Free market economics” (which is not actually what economic conservatives want, it’s only what they say they want) serves to maintain the social order. It’s why when people say they are fiscally conservative but socially liberal, they are telling a lie that comes from not really thinking their economic policies all the way through.

Virgin Mary
Virgin Mary
3 years ago

@pom

Agreed. The creed of capitalism in the USA, is the outcome of Dutch Calvinist Protestantism, and their idea of the work ethic. The two can’t be excised from one another.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

POM beat me to it.

I’m pretty much done with letting people get away with describing themselves as fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Until the “free market” stops being white supremacist and male supremacist (spoiler alert: it won’t) fiscal conservatism is inherently socially conservative.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@ Scented Hard Fucking Chairs

I think you might’ve missed our point; we’re talking about the recent trend of people hurling the word around for such things as “Health care is one of the most important issues in the country, but we won’t be able to get anywhere on it until Trump, McConnell and Ryan are out of power, which means dealing with Trump-Russia ASAP,” “I agree that America needs a stronger welfare system, but it also needs a stronger focus on women’s, PoC’s and LGBT+ rights, so I prefer Hillary’s intersectionality over Bernie’s brogressivism” and “You know that Hillary won the popular vote, right?” Those are all real examples

I’m having somewhat of a hard time understanding the point you’re trying to make taken into account the quotations in this paragraph. Correct me if I’m wrong but my perception from what you’re trying to say is that you dislike how people hurl the word towards anyone who will not agree with them in economic matters, yet are shortsighted and do not agree on the approach towards LGBT, POC and women rights, is that it?

Granted that is a big concern and brocialists are short-sighted for thinking that brocialism alone will automatically advance the rights of minorities. That isn’t the case, as pretty much everyone not White and male knows. The reason identity politics separated from socialism is because socialism refused to include oppressed groups into the narrative in the first place. We are in agreement on that.

However, just as there are brocialists, there are neoliberals among the democrats. People who insist on defending intersectionality and favor passing anti-discrimination laws and programs for women and minorities, and yet are as pro-capitalist as they come.

@Policy of Madness

Granted. That is the problem I have with libertarians, which I find to be closer to fascism than even conservatives. The very idea that “liberty” and “MUH FREEDOM” will somehow advance the rights of minorities when White male christians hold all the institutional power in the US is absolutely ludicrous.

Case in point: the Emancipation Proclamation was passed in 1863 and yet the “Free Market” didn’t punish any of the racist businesses and landlords who denied service and goods to African Americans. No, the Civil Rights Act had to be passed over a hundred year later for African Americans to somehow reach a semblance of equality.

I’m in entire agreement with you that their position is entirely disingenuous but I find the need to distinguish between both conservatives and libertarians/neoliberals/classic liberals because the latter are wolves in sheeps clothing. They surprisingly enjoy more acceptance and tolerance than the former precisely because their platform is entirely disingenuous towards their implied goal: White male supremacy.

@Virgin Mary

Capitalism in and of itself is nothing more than a modern system of slavery. Even the term “laissez faire, laissez passer” can be traced back to Vincent De Gourdnay, as he tried to justify non-intervention of the government during the Translatlantic Slave Trade.

America never abolished slavery, it just legalized it through the 13th amendment (forced labor in prison) and also concealed it abroad, where they maintained it through colonialism and imperialism. American capitalism is only allowed to exist in all its lavishness thanks to the cheap labor in near-slave, or actual slave-like, conditions in third world countries. It’s kind of why the US has been so active in the past two centuries overthrowing socialist leaders around the world, and installing or otherwise backing dictators. The latest example being Honduras.

Capitalism is inherently racist.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

Capitalism in and of itself is nothing more than a modern system of slavery.

Ummmmmm …

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

I’m having somewhat of a hard time understanding the point you’re trying to make taken into account the quotations in this paragraph. Correct me if I’m wrong but my perception from what you’re trying to say is that you dislike how people hurl the word towards anyone who will not agree with them in economic matters, yet are shortsighted and do not agree on the approach towards LGBT, POC and women rights, is that it?

Is this the blog equivalent of one of those hidden camera prank shows?

Or do I have to break out the fuckspleening flash cards?

THAT IS LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE OF MY POINT, YOU IDIOT. My problem is with people who hurl the word towards anyone who DOES agree with them on economic matters BUT ALSO cares about Trump-Russia and/or doesn’t worship Bernie as a god. Like I said the first bloody time. Read for comprehension, not for whatever gives you a platform to rant about your irrelevant hobby horses.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Seriously, is anybody else having trouble with my wording, or is this guy just really dumb/doing it on purpose to annoy me?

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
3 years ago

@Rhuu:
Which HeroQuest? There have been at least a couple of games using that name. (There was a trademark dispute between the RuneQuest/Hero Wars/Glorantha people and an older board game over that name.)

@kupo:
Almost worked, got the fixed-width font, but need to put in   rather than spaces at the front of the lines.

@Alan:
Well, Credo is much more of a card game than a board game. There is a small board to lay out the tableau where you build the Creed, but the original game was all just thin cardboard cards you had to manually cut apart the first time you wanted to play. It was one of those games released in a Zip-loc bag.

It also suffers from one of those situations where all the people playtesting knew how the game worked, so there are a couple of rules that aren’t necessarily clear to everybody else.

@EJ:
A friend of mine has the same complaint about Pandemic, in that it can often end up with one person running it and everybody else along for the ride. It definitely depends on who you’re playing with, but it can make Pandemic a bit problematic for pick-up games where some people know the game and some don’t.

Yeah, Betrayal at the House on the Hill is fun, and it’s good that they went to some effort to maintain replayability by having so many different possible end-game scenarios. Which also means that expansion packs for the game should be easy to slot in.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Scented Hard Fucking Chairs

Okay listen here asshole it’s not my fault you worded it in a difficult to understand manner. Literally what you wrote:

I think you might’ve missed our point; we’re talking about the recent trend of people hurling the word around for such things as “Health care is one of the most important issues in the country, but we won’t be able to get anywhere on it until Trump, McConnell and Ryan are out of power, which means dealing with Trump-Russia ASAP,” “I agree that America needs a stronger welfare system, but it also needs a stronger focus on women’s, PoC’s and LGBT+ rights, so I prefer Hillary’s intersectionality over Bernie’s brogressivism” and “You know that Hillary won the popular vote, right?” Those are all real examples

How the fuck am I supposed to take away from that that people are using that word to define people who do not worship Bernie as a god??? Nowhere in that paragraph do you establish a clear connection in between the use of the word and the quotes you randomly threw around.

It’s not like you explicitly said “we’re talking about the recent trend of people hurling the word around to people who hold such positions as

The way in which you worded it makes it confusing and it’s certainly not my fault I’m having trouble understanding it when you phrased it that way. Which is why I fucking asked in a polite fucking manner whether I had gotten it right and why I said I had trouble understanding. English is not my first fucking language, it’s actually my third, I hardly see how not understanding something right off the bat makes me dumb.

Katz
3 years ago

Seriously, is anybody else having trouble with my wording, or is this guy just really dumb/doing it on purpose to annoy me?

It’s not just you. As with most people who use the word “neoliberal,” it essentially doesn’t matter what actual words you say to him.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@SFHC + Diego
O.o Uh huh… Dip!

@PoM + Diego

Ummmmmm …

Yeah, I’m side eying that shit hard. Few people around here are gonna sing the praises of capitalism, but anyone who says it’s just like literal slavery needs some fuckin learnin…

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

<3 Diego, SFHC,

You're both using some pretty dense paragraphs and big words right now. And you're both talking well past each other. I suspect that it's a simple misunderstanding of intent here. As far as I can tell you both agree on the main points, but are getting caught up in different definitions for words. Yaay, semantics.

Diego, your division of “Brocialists” from “Neoliberals” isn’t clearly defined (or, more properly, the division you’re using may not be a common one); that might be a source of the problem.

You’re also using the proper, specific form of “neoliberal”, whereas its current use in common discourse is quickly shifting. This isn’t a mistake or anything wrong on your part, but it’s probably a source of confusion.

Language is fun!

Katz
3 years ago

It’s not like you explicitly said “we’re talking about the recent trend of people hurling the word around to people who hold such positions as”

Well obviously, SFHC. You said “for such things as” instead of “to people who hold such positions as.” You’re just BEGGING to be misinterpreted!

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

@Jenora Feuer: This version. It’s like D&D but without any of the fun RP elements, haha. We put them in anyway! It’s just silly, and doesn’t need anyone to spend too much time prepping a campaign.

I also really like Betrayal, but one thing to be aware of when you play it… If one of the group that you are playing with doesn’t like to be targeted as ‘the bad person’, maybe let them know beforehand that this could happen.

One of my friends really doesn’t like to suddenly have everyone else gang up om them. Also, some of the scenarios seem really unbalanced, either for the Betrayer or for the rest of the players, so sometimes it is a little rough to play.

But I still really love the exploration mechanic! And getting the items! And the story! It’s really cool!

Has anyone recommended Dead of Winter yet? Here’s how to play. Don’t worry, you only need to watch it once. UNLESS YOU ARE THE OWNER, then you must watch it every time you bring someone in.

The game seems really complicated, but it actually plays really well. It also has the betrayer mechanic that someone (EJ?) likes. Or you can just not have that, and have it be co-op, which is my preference. Either or!

It’s a very fun game, and I’m not a huge fan of zombies. There are lots of ladies, and there are also some not-white people. Not a lot, but a few.

The art is really nice too.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

That’s just from a quick google search. Having grown up in a country that allows such conditions to persist and which has no qualms about children working like this, I do not think it’s an exaggeration.

There’s a big difference between saying that capitalism facilitates/accepts/encourages slavery (choose your preferred term) and saying that it is a system of slavery.

One is true, and the other minimizes the plight of actual slaves by comparing them with McDonald’s workers.

Katz
3 years ago

I also really like Betrayal, but one thing to be aware of when you play it… If one of the group that you are playing with doesn’t like to be targeted as ‘the bad person’, maybe let them know beforehand that this could happen.

We have a house rule that you’re allowed to decline being the betrayer, especially if it’s a new player.

EJ (Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)
EJ (Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)
3 years ago

@Rhuu:
I played Dead of Winter at a board games party. We had to abandon the game partway through because it was just taking too long, but I really enjoyed what I saw of it. The exposure mechanic is downright inspired.

If you’re into long, complex boardgames of the sort that used to be referred to as “Ameritrash”, then may I recommend Chaos in the Old World? It manages asymmetric balance almost perfectly, which is a difficult feat in game design, and makes each of the four factions really characterful and fun.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Policy of Madnes

There’s a big difference between saying that capitalism facilitates/accepts/encourages slavery (choose your preferred term) and saying that it is a system of slavery.

Right, I just re-read that. It does sound like nonsense. Point granted.

One is true, and the other minimizes the plight of actual slaves by comparing them with McDonald’s workers.

Yeah, my first sentence is problematic and detrimental to the rest of the post. Which is that capitalism has allowed for labor in near slave-like or actual slave conditions to still exist in third world countries, as a means to preserving the quality of life in first world countries which greatly benefit from the cheap labor.

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

Thanks for clearing things up. Also:

Diego, your division of “Brocialists” from “Neoliberals” isn’t clearly defined (or, more properly, the division you’re using may not be a common one); that might be a source of the problem.

I’m not trying to compare Brocialists to neoliberals. From my understanding, the former are [usually] White males who mistakenly believe that socialism will magically make racism, misogyny, islamophobia, transphobia, etc magically disappear, and who feel the need to belittle anyone who does not adhere to this magic vision.

Neoliberals are either misguided or deceitful fools who preach that they are socially liberal but their hard stance on Free Market economics actually results in the oppression of women and minorities, and the preservation of White supremacy.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

Yeah, my first sentence is problematic and detrimental to the rest of the post. Which is that capitalism has allowed for labor in near slave-like or actual slave conditions to still exist in third world countries, as a means to preserving the quality of life in first world countries which greatly benefit from the cheap labor.

That lies in the gap between idealized or academic free-market capitalism (which has a certain host of problems) and laissez-faire capitalism, in which the “perfect information” market requirement is not met. Few people in the US would buy slave-made goods, but they don’t know the goods are made by slaves because this is made opaque by the sellers and the consumers don’t care enough to research it. In other words, the consumers don’t have the perfect information about the goods that free-market capitalism assumes they do.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

As with most people who use the word “neoliberal,” it essentially doesn’t matter what actual words you say to him.

Yeah, after my morning covfefe coffee, I’ve decided that he really was just using me as a randomly-chosen jumping-off point for his hobby horse. I could’ve posted a five-page dissertation on my favourite colour for all it matters.

It’s green, for the record.

(Also, now that I’ve caffeined my head on straight, I need to point and laugh at him mansplaining objectivism to me. The one who was raised by objectivists. White men, everybody! *sarcastic applause*)

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Policy of Madness

Few people in the US would buy slave-made goods, but they don’t know the goods are made by slaves because this is made opaque by the sellers and the consumers don’t care enough to research it. In other words, the consumers don’t have the perfect information about the goods that free-market capitalism assumes they do

I disagree with that perspective considering that awareness campaigns in regard to labor conditions in third world countries are constant. At this point pretty much everyone is aware of what goes on in Foxconn factories at China. Likewise, there was a massive campaign last Halloween against Nestlé for using slave child labor to harvest cacao seeds. Their profits hardly dropped.

And it’s hard to see why, taking into consideration that Nestlé does own the most popular chocolate brands in the world market. Monopolies and control of the media make it almost impossible for boycotts to succeed.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

I disagree with that perspective considering that awareness campaigns in regard to labor conditions in third world countries are constant. At this point pretty much everyone is aware of what goes on in Foxconn factories at China. Likewise, there was a massive campaign last Halloween against Nestlé for using slave child labor to harvest cacao seeds. Their profits hardly dropped.

You vastly overestimate the degree to which consumers pay attention. I guarantee that if every clothing item was required to have a verified “Slave-made” or “Free-made” tag on it, the slave-made items would have piss-poor sales. Once it is in people’s faces, they make choices based on their preferences, and the preference in the US today is that slavery is bad (can’t speak for anywhere else).

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@SFHC

(Also, now that I’ve caffeined my head on straight, I need to point and laugh at him mansplaining objectivism to me. The one who was raised by objectivists. White men, everybody! *sarcastic applause*)

1- I didn’t even bring up objectivism.

2- I’m Hispanic, not White.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ POM

but they don’t know the goods are made by slaves

How much of that do you think is down to genuine ignorance and how much to just turning a blind eye? I guess people can be forgiven when they buy three t-shirts for a fiver for not considering how little must be left over for labour after the cost of raw materials, transportation, and profit for the store. But are people unaware of what’s really going on? The idea of five year olds in sweatshops is a joke in the Simpsons.

Is it just that sense of detachment that it’s happening far away? Like how we can read about a child dying for lack of fresh water; then flush enough potable water for an entire family every time we take a piss?

I kid myself I’d be one of the ones walking away from Omelas; but I know I’m just as guilty as anyone.

ETA: Ah, ninja’d and answered, cheers.

Katz
3 years ago

Neoliberals are either misguided or deceitful fools who preach that they are socially liberal but their hard stance on Free Market economics actually results in the oppression of women and minorities, and the preservation of White supremacy.

a) That’s libertarians.

b) No actual person I’ve ever seen that term applied to has even remotely fit that description.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

@PoM

There’s a big difference between saying that capitalism facilitates/accepts/encourages slavery (choose your preferred term) and saying that it is a system of slavery

Indeed. Sharecropping wasn’t too much better than the system what came before it. But! Try telling a freedman that it’s the same thing. That the blood, sweat, tears, families, and lives spent getting to that point were wasted. Slavery exists today, exploited, aided, and abetted by capitalist systems. But they’re not the same thing. Hundreds of years of fight and progress means my employer doesn’t hold deed to my life as property. I tend to find that difference a crucial one

See this shit everywhere in ‘lefter than thou’ circles. Which speaks to the lack of intersectionality in said circles. The same people who said Clinton and Trump would be exactly the same. But I’m a neolib counterrevolutionary for being skeptical of such claims. Gets tiring…

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

@Alan

I’m not saying who is responsible for the ignorance. To some degree the sellers make this information opaque, but in many cases the information does exist out there and people just don’t bother to check. They lack perfect information and some of that is on the consumer, not on the seller. It’s the lack of perfect information that matters here, not who is responsible for it.

Ultimately one solution would be for government to mandate that all sellers mark their items as made by slaves or by free people and that this is verified in some way. But that isn’t laissez-faire.

A lot of the ills ascribed to capitalism are actually problems of laissez-faire capitalism, which is frustrating to me because it’s not like perfect capitalism would be problem-free or anything. You don’t have to say it kicks kittens to make it look bad; it would look bad anyway.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Alan
My problem is I know very few companies which advertise paying their workers well, so I don’t have many ethical options.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

(Missed further edit window)

I really see your point about explicit labelling. You’ve now got me thinking about the language. If you label something as say ‘ethically produced’ it seems to get lumped into something ‘above and beyond the call’. Like it’s an extra feature rather than a minimum standard. It’s like the exploitation manufacturing is the ‘overton’ analogous middle ground.

It’s funny how we (at least in Britain) seem more bothered about how our food animals are treated when it comes to labeling than kids and adults in far away countries.

You’ve got me pondering.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
3 years ago

@Katz

Neoliberals and libertarians are near analogous with the difference that “libertarians” is mostly used in the US. In Latin America libertarians are more commonly referred to as neoliberals. If I’m not mistaken Chomsky was responsible for popularizing the term. Even though now purist leftist use it to throw it at anyone who does not wholly buy into their garbage.

Also, what do you mean they don’t fit that description? Or did I word it wrongly?

What I meant is libertarians/neoliberals (choose whichever term you usually apply) preach socially liberal stances (euthanasia, opposition to war, decriminalization of weed, etc).

Problem being that they place the Free Market above everything. Thus what ends up happening is the preferences of the group which holds institutional power (White males) will completely impose itself in the detriment of other groups (anyone not male or White).

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ kupo

Oh yeah, I’m certainly not going to go all holier than thou about it. It’s ok for me to say I won’t shop at Primark, I’m not trying to clothe ever growing kids on bare subsistence level income. It’s a bit like the ‘you should only eat fresh not processed food’ thing. That’s great if you don’t live in a food desert and you’ve got time to cook because you’re not knackered after pulling a double shift.

Like POM says, it’s a systematic problem, not something down to individual ‘end users’.

Skye
Skye
3 years ago

Can I go back to games really fast?

Does anyone here like Agricola or really silly stuff like Guillotine or Gloom?

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
3 years ago

@Skye: I really like Gloom! I love telling the story! I think I need to pick up the expansions for my room mate.

I also like Texas Zombies a lot, though we sort of play our own version of it without using teams. I also need to make about a hundred more item cards! There just aren’t enough. It’s another story telling game.

I haven’t played Agricola yet, but I hear it’s really good?

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@Skye
Oh, I forgot about Guillotine. Used to play that with my team back in 1998. Good times, lovely sangria. 😀

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Agricola! Gloom! yaaaaay! Much fun.

I just love games, really. The social lubricant that they provide is exactly what I need in life.

As for the “neoliberal/libertarian” thing, I’ve met and heard from self-described neoliberals who are incredibly socially conservative, and believe that the only thing keeping progressives around at all is government intervention. The “liberal”/”neoliberal” terms have become almost useless outside of context these days.

Skye
Skye
3 years ago

@kupo, Texas zombies looks really interesting (actually a lot of the games linked here look interesting…Dead of Winter, Skulls, etc…totally need to have another game day w/friends)

@Scildfreja,

I just love games, really. The social lubricant that they provide is exactly what I need in life

Definitely agree