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By David Futrelle
I don’t even know how to begin to summarize this very long and very creepy post from the Relationship Advice subreddit from a male boss who seems just a teensy weensy bit too “concerned” about a female employee’s relationship with her boyfriend.
So you’re going to just have to read it for yourself. But here’s a fun game you can play as you make your way through it: See how many paragraphs you can get through before your skin starts to crawl!
![Me [32M] with my coworker/friend [24/F] of one year, how do I let her know she is in an abusive relationship with her bf[24m] (self.relationship_advice) submitted 1 day ago by menumessages So a little background to start off with: I work for a nonprofit where I'm the supervisor of 10 people that work under me. Last fall a young woman, lets call her Jennifer started to work with us through an outside fellowship. Now she's the kind of person that just commands attention as soon as she walks into the room. She is very pretty but just has one of those personalities that everyone likes you know? I had to train her when she first started but was very surprised by how quickly she picked everything up. We do a lot of legal work and it's not easy for people without previous experience to learn so quickly. So this should give you a good idea of the kind of person she is. I immediately took a liking to her because of her work but also how easy she was to talk to. During our training, I would say we became pretty close. So much so that I would text her outside of work about non work related stuff. Also she sends me snapchats a lot, random stuff like shows shes watch like friends do. We even go to happy hour alone sometimes and I think I am the closest to her at work. One time she even had lunch with my mom and I when my mom was visiting town. So she is someone I consider a very good friend and want the best for her. Now here's the problem. About two months into her working with us, I found out she has a boyfriend. TO CLARIFY I DO NOT HAVE ANY ROMANTIC INTERESTS AND DO NOT CARE THAT SHE HAS A BOYFRIEND. I really don't care that she has a boyfriend but felt a little manipulated that she never mentioned him before. I am supervisor, been training her for a few months, we have been talking about a lot of stuff so it just comes off as hiding something. People who work in small offices will know what I'm talking about. It was a little hard for me to trust her after that but I kept it to myself. She was still a great employee and her having a boyfriend did not change anything because apparently she has been with this guy for 5 years now. He doesn't live in the same city and they barely see each other from what I understand. So months go by and everything is going really well. So much so that I was even thinking about recommending her for a promotion. We became even closer during this time. About two weeks ago our parent group is hosted a fundraising gala. I asked Jennifer if she wold like to go with me and she said yes. I always have a great time with her so I was really looking forward to it. The night of the gala I called to see when I should pick her up and she said her boyfriend was in town and he would drop her off so she will just meet me there. This is the first red flag I noticed. Is this guy really that insecure that he can't even let her date take her to this gala? Five years and this insecure? That's a problem. But I just agree and say okay I will meet her there. I get to the gala and start to mingle. She eventually gets there but I don't approach her. Honestly, still pretty bothered by what happened earlier so I wanted her to come to me and apologize. She came up to me and we talked but she never apologized for what she did but I ignored it. Soon we were talking just like before and honestly really enjoying each other's company. Here's when I noticed the second red flag. Jennifer and I were talking to another couple when she excused herself because she had to take a call from her boyfriend. I thought it was pretty rude and she has never done something like this before. A little later she comes back and says that her boyfriend is picking her up and she will leave early. THIRD RED FLAG. She was very much looking forward to this night and suddenly she wants to leave early? You know when you can just tell someone isn't happy in their situation? Yeah I definitely felt it right away. A little while later he gets there and I shit you not, this idiot walked into the gala wearing shorts and a t shirt. I almost wanted to laugh but I didn't want to embarrass him. Jennifer introduces me to him and I make pleasantries but I do make a joke about how must feel a little out of place. He says something like "nah, not really sticking around so not a big deal." Okay? I don't really get what that has to do with anything. My point was that he was at a black tie event dressed like he is going to the gym, I don't care if you're for five minutes or five hours, that's weird. So you can already see he is getting an attitude with me for no reason. I follow up with, "well there are some really important people here" and his response was something like, "I've met senators wearing flip flops, I think I'll be okay." Holy shit, I'm getting angry writing this. But you see what I'm talking about right? He completely rubbed me the wrong way. So anyways, as she is leaving, I tell her to let me know if she gets home okay. It gets around midnight and she hasn't sent me a single message. So I sent her a text and no reply. I sent her another around 1am saying I am worried and just to let me know if she is okay. No reply. I have a hard time sleeping that night because I am genuinely concerned. It's just the kind of person I am. I need to know my friends are okay or it bothers me. I wake up the next morning after getting really bad sleep and she still hasn't responded. This makes me upset because I can see she has uploaded pictures on facebook but yet won't respond to my text. The only explanation is that her boyfriend is the reason. She always responds to me and at most a few hours later. So Sunday night I finally send another message really detailing how upset I was with how she was treating me. Also how I think how much control I feel her boyfriend was exerting over her was really making me lose respect for her. I always thought she is this strong independent woman and suddenly this guy is controlling who she can or can't talk to. Of course I get no reply. Monday, inevitably we see each other at work and she confronts me the first thing in the morning. Before I even get a chance to speak, she says I made her uncomfortable and she wants to just finish her last two months of fellowship without any contact that is not necessary for work. This was about two weeks ago. I was really upset at first but honestly I've done a lot of reading. When you are in an abusive relationship, you stop seeing the world the way it is and only the way the abuser wants you to see. It makes me really sad that I am losing a good friend because her boyfriend has insecurity issues. So a few concerns here. She started dating him 5 years ago meaning she was only 19 and therefore this is pretty much the only adult "relationship" she knows. Also the guy is a lobbyist! She wants to work in public service, help immigrants and refugees but yet dates a lobbyist? Does she really not see the contradiction here? I think over the past five years he has done a good job gaslighting her and it's to the point where it's affecting her relationship with other people and it breaks my heart to see this happen to a good friend. My question is this: what is the best approach to let her know of these concerns I have? How can you make someone who refuses to see reality to actually see what is happening? I have spoken to my mother and we both agree it would be best that she is also there when I approach Jennifer. However, do you think it should just be me alone or it would be better having a motherly figure also there to talk about something this serious? And if we have this conversation and she still refuses to break up with her abusive boyfriend, what are the final steps that I should take? To be frank, I'm not sure I can remain friends with her if she continues to date him. I'm simply not the kind of person who will stick by someone who is willingly ruining their own life. I can't stop thinking about this and haven't gotten any work done today. I really look forward to your suggestions and thank you for all your help. For any of you that are currently in an abusive relationship, get out before it's too late. tl;dr: My pretty good friend is in an abusive relationship but won't notice it. How do I get her to notice for her own good but also the future of our friendship?](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/boss1-e1500062317524.png?ssl=1)
Yipes.
In the movie Election, the main characters periodically break frame for brief “confessionals” in which they explain what they think is going on; it doesn’t take long to figure out that, well, they have no idea what’s really going on, and their little monologues are at once self-serving and completely un-self-aware.
Boss man has outdone all of them here.
H/T — @leyawn
@Diego, the reason people took issue with your post is because you already acted a bit defensive in the first post. That is something which sets off the commentators here because they sniff out an opportunity to be morally outraged. Policy of Madness already accused you of being a dangerous creep that is sexually harassing her. If you then respond to defend yourself even further that will be called doubling down and dying on a hill and will unite everyone here to oppose you even if they didn’t previously care about your point. You probably thought you were just stating something that was on your mind, and used the OP as a pretext, but you can’t do that here. Your name gives away you are likely male, hence you will be distrusted a priori, furthermore it can be read as a defense of male behavior, which is also suspicious.
This is why outrage and call out culture on the left, which this site is highly prone to, is a sort of purity politics that will serve to make leftwing politics irrelevant because it can not ever bring itself to make alliances with any group below their moral standards. So they will create ever more exclusive groups of morally superior people that all represent the true feminist left or whatever.
Of course I am extrapolating from the interaction here, and it is a bit overwrought, but I have seen it a million times before, so…
@Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer
That’s what I was trying to get at with the change of attitudes in society, that we shouldn’t have to rely on using an existing relationship as a shield. A lot of people have an all-or-nothing mentality, though, either you stay with your partner for every activity and all eternity, or you boink every single person who comes along.
@Diego Duarte
See, I didn’t get that at all. But I was reading it on r/niceguys, so I was probably biased anyway.
I’m sure that’s what he intended to portray, but almost nobody else saw it. There were a few comments here and there in his various versions of events that were more generous interpretations, like yours.
Thanks for this. Taken as a general statement, I agree with you. It’s just that in this particular case, most of us are not willing to take this guy at his word that there was any chemistry or flirting to begin with, and even he insists that he has no interest in her whatsoever. Whether we’re right or wrong in being so skeptical every time, his later comments make it clear to me that he really has no idea about what’s going on and is determined to see only what he wants to see.
But why?
If you understand that “this is not the case”, then why did you feel the need to defend something that has no relevance to the topic at hand? And why did you particularly feel the need to phrase it in as antagonistic a way as possible, when I highly doubt that most people here would disagree that “someone who is in an abusive or unsatisfied relationship” deserves to do whatever they want to get out of it or otherwise find fulfillment?
@Trollahtrollah:
3/10, too much plagiarism. Write your second draft, use your own words, if you get a better grade maybe that’ll be the one that sticks.
@zumah
I think, in your learned habits of alt-right hysteria, that you’re accusing Mammotheers of being more hysterical than they actually are.
#irony
I think the first step to this creep not being a creep anymore would be for him to admit to himself that he is very attracted to Jennifer. It really seems to me like everything he’s doing stems from a denial of this attraction. He’s really scared of admitting it to himself. I think it’s an extreme case of Niceguyitis; a sickness that makes men believe that you cannot respect a woman AND want to bone her at the same time, or have a good friendship with a woman AND want to be her boyfriend at the same time. He doesn’t want to be THAT guy, so he’s pretending his feelings aren’t really happening. Ironically, that’s what makes him behave so creepily. If he admitted to himself “I’m crazy about this woman” it’d give him some perspective on his actions. How much perspective, I don’t know.
Can I just say: This lady sounds awesome! Way to go. Clean, direct, unmistakable, and professional. I’m not worried about her handling her boyfriend. She seems quite capable.
I hope I’m not piling on here, but I just feel this needs to be addressed. I think (and this is very much my personal opinion, ymmv etc) it is really off to hit on someone who’s in that sort of place.
They’re at their most vulnerable. It may be that any form of kindness and affection (or worst still, sexual opportunism masquerading as kindness) will be so welcome that people let their guard down or tolerate behaviour they wouldn’t normally, just so as not to risk losing the ‘friendship’ on offer.
If you do feel genuine compassion and empathy towards someone you also happen to fancy, then you need to put your wants to one side for the time being. And if you can’t do that then it’s probably best if you stay out of it.
Offering a genuine shoulder to cry on is one thing, taking advantage of someone when they’re down is another.
But as said, just my two eurocents.
Not what PoM was saying at all, but nice try at making a straw man!
@Alan:
Actually, yeah, the wording of that too is kinda gross. If you know someone you care about is in a shitty relationship, you should be trying to support them, not trying to get into their pants. That doesn’t mean the latter can’t happen, but if that’s your objective from the get-go then your priorities are all sorts of messed up.
Thanks, Buckaroos!
I’m not sure why. David wouldn’t be writing about it and calling him the creepy boss of the year if this had been the case.
Not trying to pile on, but look at the words up there. ‘Boss’ and ‘girl.’ Even if Jennifer had been single, this is not a situation in which hitting on her would be okay. There’s a built in power deferential. Even if there were chemistry, it wouldn’t be appropriate to act on it. Someone you have power over is never fair game.
And this one’s not directed at you specifically but to the whole site as I saw it done in another thread. Or shit, even the whole world. Can we please stop calling adult women girls? It’s something that is just way too common. I’ve done it myself, although I’ve stopped. We don’t routinely refer to men as boys. When people do do that it’s seen as condescending and an insult. Which is why it’s most commonly a white man in some position of authority saying it to a black man. Yet women are called girls all the time and that’s completely acceptable. Why? It’s infantilizing and reinforces the notion that women are inferiors and not to be taken seriously.
@Kootiepatra: You explained it so clearly, much better than I was able to in my head. Thanks for that!
@IP: That’s super cool that they’ve made your bit into its own video!
@Alan: Well put, and something that I hadn’t actually considered. I’ll have to think about that. Thanks!
@WWTH: Ugh, I KNOW. I don’t remember where someone pointed out how creepy it was to be referring to adult women as ‘girls’, but when I read it I realised I did it all the time. Like, all the time.
I’m making an effort to stop, because it is gross. It’s really hard though! I had to write an email the other day, referring to a lady that I didn’t know the name of. I was going to write ‘girl’, and then was like “Rhuu come on now, she is a full grown adult woman, refer to her as such.”
It still felt awkward. I’ll just have to keep practicing!
I can’t see any way to interpret “Everyone is fair game” except that it’s initially okay to hit on anyone you like, and then it’s their responsibility to make it clear that the attention is unwanted and you should stop. But that sounds like an awful situation where anyone not interested in a relationship is constantly forced to turn down unwanted offers.
I’d rather have extremely strict boundaries about when you’re allowed to approach someone romantically (even as strict as “no co-workers, ever”) because your right to work in peace is more important than your right to get a date.
Okay, I really don’t get the pearl clutching over supposed “call out culture.” Has there ever been a time or a subculture where no one was ever offended and no one ever expressed offense? Expressing offense is a pretty normal human behavior and not exclusive to the left.
Remember all the outrage on the right about Obama’s “clinging to guns and god” comment? Or his speech where he said “you didn’t build that?” The latter was deliberately taken out of context and misinterpreted and that’s much, much worse than genuinely disagreeing with something and expressing it.
It’s not just political factions. Say something unflattering about a person’s favorite athlete, band or movie and there’s a good chance they’ll get mad.
@WWTH:
But it’s okay when they do it, because then it’s just them trying to uphold traditional American values. They’re just trying to protect everyone else from us degenerate lefties, after all.
And that’s just because their opinions are indisputable fact, while everyone else’s opinions are just wrong!
See, it all makes sense.
I also like how trollahtrollah added a “subtle” “feminsits hate men!!!” comment, as if no men ever comment on this blog which is run by a man.
Rules in place at previous job: If you, as a supervisor, make an attempt to start a relationship with a subordinate who doesn’t want the relationship, you are no longer a supervisor. If you have a (desired by both) relationship with a subordinate, you must report it to your manager, and one of you must transfer to another position outside of direct reporting. If you, as a supervisor, show subordinates photos of your half-naked girlfriend, you’re fired. (none of these happened to me as a supervisor, but the “naked girlfriend” photo sharing was my department manager at one point before he got fired)
There are strict boundaries in US companies that care about harrassment, or have gotten sued multiple times by ex-employees.
None of them say “Post harrassment apologetics on reddit”.
Diego Duarte says:
Except this doesn’t in any way describe Douchebag Supervisor Guy’s situation. Whether you go with how he imagined things went or any of the potential real scenarios, he was clearly creeping on this woman first and concocted the “abusive boyfriend” story to save his feelings after he finally sensed his interest was entirely one-sided.
You originally spoke of “consenting adults,” but power differentials affect consent. In fact, the power differential was probably what appealed to Douchebag Supervisor Guy in the first place. Guys who can’t handle rejection tend, consciously or not, to go after anyone they think will have a harder time turning them down. And that is one of the reasons why not everyone should be fair game.
@ Jules
Glad you liked it 🙂 And thanks for those links. Just wondering if you’ve ever seen ‘Duffelblog’? It’s a sort of military version of The Onion. It’s funny, but they also make some good points with the satire. You might enjoy it.
@ Katz
Just heard from the shop where I’ve ordered your book. It’s expected to arrive, in October!. Hmm, well this will test my commitment to never using Amazon or Waterstones.
There’s a bit of a “call out culture” going on in a lot of social media right now (lookin’ at you tumblr) where people are “calling out” random individuals they personally don’t like for made up bullshit, backed up by vague “receipts” that usually consist of:
– Links to other people’s blogs who just so happen to agree with OP (and who also have zero actual evidence)
– Links to something someone did years ago (which they either since apologized for or changed their stance on)
– Links to something that’s actually really vague, but OP interpreted it as being “problematic”.
– The OP’s word that this is actually happening.
It’s really prevalent on tumblr right now, and I’ve seen several blogs I follow get “called out” for things like pedophilia because they shipped a ship (between two consenting fictional adults, mind) that the person doing the calling out didn’t approve of.
It’s gotten worse with people trying to play “More Socially Woke Than Thou” for brownie points.
And some of those targeted by this can brush it off and walk away (and unfortunately, some actual harmful people can as well), but then there are others who did nothing and end up having to remake their accounts or abandon them altogether because they’ll then become the target of harassment via the “callout”, and there’s little to no recourse for it beyond completely rebuilding.
And that’s devastating to someone like an artist or someone else who makes their living via social media, but who doesn’t have a big enough presence to just brush it off.
It’s gotten to the point where you can’t actually just ship characters/like a character or fandom/like an individual person without having a damn dissertation on hand about why they’re the “least problematic”, or else you’ll risk having some rando make a post “calling you out” for some bullshit you didn’t even do.
You can’t just go “Eh, I don’t like this person/thing” anymore, people feel pressured to have reasons, and they have to be “good” reasons, otherwise you just look bad for just not liking something.
TL;DR: Callout Culture, like most things on the internet, has gotten blown way the fuck out of proportion and is now used to harass anyone the person doing the calling out doesn’t like instead of warn them about actually awful people.
There is a big gulf between “entitled to another person’s attention” and “needlessly harass.” Again you elide things that are different as though they are identical. This is a very bad habit of yours and it makes you come across as duplicitous, even to people who can’t fully articulate what it is you’re doing wrong.
But it seems to be acceptable to you to hit on someone at least once, notwithstanding this:
This is equivocation that is very different from your initial statement that everyone is fair game, full stop.
I want you to think a little bit about “everyone is fair game.” Everyone is fair game … to whom? To everyone else, is the obvious answer to that. So I am fair game to literally everyone I meet, by that standard. Do you understand how badly it degrades my quality of life to be bothered on the bus or on the street while I’m trying to go about my day by men who think they are entitled to my attention? I should not be assumed to be within everyone else’s sexual universe until/unless I explicitly opt out. That’s a huge imposition on my time and my peace. And keep in mind that many men become hostile and angry and occasionally violent when they get an answer they don’t want.
Even if everyone cheerfully accepts a “no” every time, why on earth is it my responsibility to say no to half a million people in my city before I can go about my day in peace? What are you buying with my time and my effort and my quality of life, and why do you feel entitled to impose those costs onto me to get whatever it is you want to get here?
Pretty sure everyone can scroll up to see what I actually said. Gaslighting doesn’t work on boards that don’t automatically roll old posts off, so if you want to try out this trick you might need to go back to 4chan.
Not everyone is “fair game”.
I am not “fair game”, for instance. If the minefields and spikes aren’t creating the impression in you that your romantic attention is not welcome here, that’s your problem.
And even though there are some people I am game for, by definition none of those people are my work managers because it’s not possible to have a non-abusive romantic relationship with a person who is in a position of power over you.
For me, I started shuddering here:
“One of those personalities that everyone likes”
So, he’s not willing to articulate what exactly he likes about her personality because he hasn’t noticed her personality. He’s just in his head dealing with imagining her as a romantic – let’s not kid ourselves, actually – sexual partner and projecting his interest in her onto her so anything she does looks like she’s interested in him to him.
I mean, how do you get more not interested than “I don’t want to have any contact with you that is not necessary for work”? And he’s still inventing reasons she could be interested in him.
This isn’t even slightly abnormal for men, at all.
One bit of Fridge Horror for me was realizing that the Boss Creeper was expecting support and validation. He clearly posted multiple versions of this charming account, received a chorus of ‘Dude, no, just no,’ and repeatedly reposted hoping for a different response.
He was actually offended that his aggressively wrong take on the situation was rejected. Doubling down over and over.
He’s determined to prove that he’s right, despite being told he’s not *on Reddit*.
Call-out culture is definitely a thing. Think Shakesville and places like that where everyone is always tiptoeing around to avoid getting dogpiled on. It’s even been a problem here in the distant past, as some of you probably remember.
It happens when the way you gain community standing by accusing other people of problematic behavior and turning the community against them. In that situation, it no longer matters whether the accusation is true; defending them or having a different opinion just proves that you are problematic too and makes you the next target. Thus it’s a self-reinforcing cycle that’s almost impossible to break out of.
It happens all the time on book Twitter and has ended careers. I could give many examples.
@PI
Parts of Tumblr are basically redefining pedophilia to be almost anything. I see posts floating around about how 17-year-olds who date 15-year-olds are evil. And saying that any consenting adults who engage in daddy-kink with other consenting adults bear personal responsibility for child molestation. It’s to the point where “allowing” people under 18 to read smutty fanfiction is seen as predatory (as if that’s anything that can be controlled).