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By David Futrelle
UPDATE: DeVos met with MRAs Thursday; here’s what she told reporters afterwards.
The Trump administration has given a lot of fringe political weirdos a certain not-quite-legitimacy. We’ve seen “alt-lite” conspiracy slinger and bobblehead salesman Mike Cernovich given White House press credentials; meanwhile, Twitterbanned right-wing pseudo-journalist Chuck Johnson seems to have become entangled in one of the developing Trump/Russia collusion scandals, working at the behest of a longtime Republican donor (now deceased) who was apparently willing to drop big bucks to help Trump by somehow uncovering Hillary Clinton’s deleted emails.
Now a notorious Men’s Rights group — the National Coalition For Men — will be meeting with Education secretary Betsy DeVos to discuss the campus rape epidemic that MRAs claim doesn’t exist. DeVos will also be talking with rape survivors and college officials, but the fact that the NCFM will be part of the discussion is appalling, even by Trump administration standards.
Despite its long pedigree (it’s been around since 1977) and almost respectable-sounding name, the NCFM has, I would estimate, roughly as much legitimacy as a civil rights group as the Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men or the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit. Which is to say none.
Indeed, the NCFM site clutters its sidebars with videos from the likes of AVFM founder Paul Elam and antifeminist gadfly Girl Writes What, while the main page touts articles accusing feminism of destroying the family, suggesting campus “safe spaces” are “havens of misandry” and asking “is feminism killing young boys,” with the last article written by a regular contributor to AVFM.
The group has also won a certain notoriety in feminist circles for posting pictures of alleged “false accusers” on its website. I also ran across this lovely picture and caption on the NCFM site last year, illustrating a press release on Senator Patrick Leahy and the Violence Against Women Act.
As I noted at the time, “the Joker is [apparently] supposed to represent Leahy’s supposed feminist puppetmasters; regardless, it is a jarring image depicting violence against an elected official as somehow humorous.” If you can’t quote believe that a supposed civil rights group would run such a thing, well, make a quick visit to the group’s website; the picture is still up. (I’ve archived it here just in case.)
This is hardly the only time the NCFM or its officials have offered, well let’s just call them disconcerting takes on the issue of violence.
In an interview with Pacific Standard’s Ted Scheinman a couple of years ago, NCFM president Harry Crouch offered this take on Ray Rice, the (former) football player who knocked his then fiancée out cold with a punch famously caught on video.
I’m not saying he’s a good guy. But if she hadn’t aggravated him, she wouldn’t have been hit. They would say that’s blaming the victim. But I don’t buy it. And anyway football is always happy to put on pink suits to celebrate women. Why can’t they have a week, or just one day, where they celebrate men?
It’s no wonder that Jess Davidson of the group End Rape On Campus, told the HuffPost that she considers the NCFM a “hate group.”
“They have viciously and very intentionally harassed rape survivors online by exposing their identities and posting pictures of them,” Davidson told the HuffPost. “From our perspective, they really have no place in a conversation about civil rights.”
DeVos will also be meeting with representatives of the group Stop Abusive and Violent Environments (SAVE), a group the Southern Poverty Law Center once described as devoted to “roll[ing] back services for victims of domestic abuse and penalties for their tormentors, while working to return the focus to the ‘true victims of abuse’ — the falsely accused.”
SAVE has long worked hand-in-hand with hate site AVFM to fight for men they believe have been “falsely accused.”
The meeting is scheduled to take place July 13th.
It is not known if any bears or their representatives will be attending the meeting.
H/T — Thanks to everyone who sent me links on this story
Oh hey, an MRA in the backlog. And they’ve got a website listed, let’s see what that’s about!
Youtube channel link, huh? Okay, that’s cool. Let’s see what’s in there. I – well, okay. The “New Videos” list starts with “Romance & Female Fantasy”, a Nazi caricature of a jewish person wearing a pink toque and feminist tattoo, a banana on strike, a rainbow nazi flag with Stars of David and pentacles, and a Virgin Mary statue demanding worship for giving birth.
… @Big D, honey, you aren’t really puttin’ your best argument first here! Here’s a hint for you: if the page is about women’s stuff, but all of the pictures are models and memes? Proooobably not an actual portrayal of women’s stuff.
Bonus points for the picture of the “10 things only Red Pill men know about women” video, though. Men are a single on-off switch, whereas women are a control panel with numerous variables. That’s a bit of a self-own, sir! I rather resent your portrayal of men – men are complex too! And they’re very worthy of being treated as fully complex beings instead of as simple on-off switches.
You also said words, but… ehh. You haven’t really said anything worth replying to. Do feel free to comment more, though. I’ve been filing my teeth.
Congrats, IP!
Still Fiqah – I’m so hoping that’s a Poe because, just…
@big d
Hi Big D. Thanks for coming on here, it must be nerve wracking for you as an MRA to enter the lions den. Well done. Please stay civil and play nice tho won’t you?
A couple of questions. You seem to admire Mrs DeVos. That’s a start at least, no matter how confused politically she is, you have expressed admiration for a woman. Please don’t refer to her, or anybody else as a ‘female’ again, we aren’t Ferengi.
Now, Big D, assuming that women are actually human, and the same species as you are, can I ask you, if you woke up tomorrow as a woman, still being you, your same personality and mentality, how would you feel about people like your MRA friends? Would you be happy to be treated the way your role models suggest women should be treated? If they were talking about your mother or daughter, would you still agree with them?
I’m asking this because, I feel that MGTOW/MRA culture revels in its lack of empathy, in its ”othering” of those groups of human beings you have taken exception to. Is it possible for you to step outside yourselves for once and see how you really appear to others, and to the people you wish to own, subdue and control?
Thank you in advance for being rational and reasonable, and have a good evening, Big D. 🙂
How insecure do you have to be to make even your username be a reference to your dick?
@Mish: I sat there with my jaw hanging in disbelief. I kept waiting for it to turn Swiftian. It never turned Swiftian.
@kupo: I was trying so hard to keep it to myself, and be strong…nooooope.
@Falconer: When I tel you I desperately called on every listening God in the vicinity to kill that post with fire…
@dslucia: CONSTANTLY.
@Dan Hoan: This is a sold self-care plan.
@Diego: It makes one physically ill. Their self-loathing is breathtaking.
@Rhuu: I really did try to just wrestle with it alone. I failed.
@Hambeast: I’m afraid it really is just what it looks like.
Y’all, in future, I promise to follow terrible things like that with hours and hours of videos of puppies and kittens trying to climb into the same oversized Christmas stocking.
That’s a secret that only the exalted and wise red pill men know?
90% of sitcoms and stand up comedy are based on the stereotype that men are simple and up front creatures who only know and care about sports, beer, red meat and sex while women are mysterious and emotional and do uptight and no fun things like expecting their husbands to remember their birthday or pull their own weight with the housework and child care.
@WWTH, a great sign of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action is repeating something blatantly obvious as if it were some sort of profound truth.
@Big D, “She seems like a quality female.”
Why did you think that was a good way to put that supposed compliment? If someone were to refer to you, and say, “He seems like a quality male.” are you seriously saying you think that’s a good thing to hear?
You’re implying that you think she might be a quality female, but might not be in the future. People NOTICE these kinds of compliments for what they are. They’re not compliments.
FIRE is a stealth conservative organization, part of the standard GOP trick of pretending to be neutral, while almost entirely championing conservative causes, and mostly ignoring liberals unless they further the conservative agenda. Finding out that DeVos donated to such an organization is not an indicator of being a good or bad person. Just means she donates to conservative causes that pretend to be neutral.
Big D is apparently youtuber Turd Flinging Monkey. I’m familiar with him. I wish i wasn’t. His name tells you everything you need to know.
@IP, congratulations and good luck!
@troll
If only a man would call me a “quality female” once in my life, I would die happy.
I’m not a man, but if you want me to call you “quality female” I will!
Generous as always, but I’m afraid it’s just not quite the same! Haha.
TW/CW Rape/Sexual Assault/Trauma
One of my friends tweeted about her work as a sexual assault survivor advocate. I think most people have no idea what a survivor has to go through to even file a complaint.
https://twitter.com/rue_walker/status/885503292867977217
And if their experience is anything like mine, after the police treat you like a criminal and manipulate you, then you get to testify in a room full of strangers who then roll their eyes and call you a liar to your face. And then the judge implies you are making everything up & are a bad person ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I honestly cannot get over DeVos meeting with these people. How absolutely dare she. And how dare any one support her or Trump. But I’ve also been around long enough to know people don’t give a shit about survivors & would rather be as far away from them as possible.
Congratulations to Im. Petal! May the Ascended Madoka bless you!
I did not read that Twitter thread. It sounds like those of you who did read it could use this:
http://i.imgur.com/SSa9QpW.jpg
@JS
Yes. We should all aspire to a higher standard. Part of my personal path in life is helping other men channel their dominance instinct into self-improvement and self-actualization. Western civilization used to value, respect, and reward quality. Unfortunately, we’ve now adopted a slave morality that punishes people of quality while exalting victimhood.
Very late to the party, but:
CONGRATULATIONS, IMAGINARY PETAL!!!!
?????????
Big D,
As someone who identifies as an MRA, do you want to help and support male victims of abuse or rape?
If so, can you please explain how cutting services to abuse victims and making it harder to report and making rape less likely to be investigated helps to achieve these goals.
Just to clarify here, the VAWA, despite having the word ‘women’ in the title doesn’t only fund woman exclusive organizations.
There is too much to unpack in this scant 15 words, especially for me as a white person, so I’m just going to point out that you’re associating slaves with poor morals. Not slavers. Not the institution of slavery. Slaves. I’m afraid that on those grounds I’m going to have to declare you to be a male of poor quality.
This is the standard conservative lament, dating back long before the “alt-right”. I’ll bet that Birchers said that in the same breath in which they said that the Civil Rights Movement was a Communist programme for revolution in America. But I wasn’t a conservative back then. I was a conservative from 2008 to 2014, and I’m familiar with this lament from complaints about “political correctness”, which is descended from “cultural Marxism”, which is a silly anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. It all comes back to bigotry, doesn’t it?
@Viscaria:
Anyway, I didn’t even catch the slave thing. I was focused on the dog-whistle “people of quality”, probably meaning “white people, particularly middle-to-upper-class cishet Protestant white men and ‘their’ (also middle-to-upper-class cishet Protestant white) women”. And for catching what I missed, I (for all my opinion matters) confer upon you, Viscaria, the title of “quality female”.
http://m.quickmeme.com/img/27/273fe8631cf4f18e104ba9d066caa11bac641cedbd5656d5f14a51796c3e352e.jpg
The most flattering compliment a woman can hope to receive!
@Big D: 1) The fact that your name and a colon together make a dismayed face is very appropriate 2) I feel I should clarify, in case you are a very literal person, that we’re being sarcastic. Nobody wants to be called a quality female. It’s dehumanizing and gross and reveals your misogyny.
@Viscaria
Race has nothing to do with it. See ‘On the Genealogy of Morals’ by Friedrich Nietzsche. Also explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhaaVeYmWM4
Racism and others forms of tribalism are used to divide men against each other and preserve gynocentrism. MGTOW isn’t about race. Futrelle does a poor job of accurately representing MGTOW on this site. His focus on the MGTOW subreddit, as opposed to high quality MGTOW content creators such as Human http://bit.ly/2vjeIGp or Marcus http://bit.ly/2uXS7jh , may be good for cheap laughs but he’d serve his readers (and more importantly himself) better by engaging with more than just the low hanging fruit.
@Big Disappointment
Hey dirtbag, I’m Chinese Vietnamese, don’t you fucking tell me what is and isn’t racism.
Nietzsche
Why, why, why does every misogynist, racist and classist libertarian douchebag have to hide behind Nietzsche? It’s sooooo boring. Do try to be more original.
Also, I clicked on the links and what do you know? It’s all argumentum ad YouTube.
No one is going to waste hours of their life listening to YouTube bloviations. MGTOW and MRA know this. It’s like a contemporary version of the Gish gallop. They won’t cite real studies or link to essays, articles or blog posts we can skim through to get to the meat of the argument. They link to hours and hours of endless rambling boring videos instead. We can’t refute what we haven’t engaged with. They can say they won because we’ve very reasonably refused to play.
I am returned! Behold my new form, O bigots, and weep!!
@Viscaria: Glad to be of assistance. (:
@Big D-bag (because nobody will name himself after his opinion of his penis who’s not a douchebag): I hope you are aware that we’re not here to debate you. We’re here to mock you. Some here will debate you out of the goodness of their hearts (or because they’re bored). At this point, I’m not among them. I’ll not click on a bald YouTube link, especially not without private browsing. I don’t care to read Nietzsche right now. You are free therefore to retire to your little hole in the ground and add another to your tally of ~FLAWLESS VICTORIES~ and ~FEMINIST CRINGE COMPILATION~ and ~FLAWLESS VICTORIES OVER CRINGEY FEMINISTS~. Neither I nor anyone else here care. (If any of you does in fact care, speak now or for ever hold your peace.) Please do, and leave us alone.
@Big D
You know, Sparky, I don’t actually believe anyone can evoke the concept of slavery in 2017 without bringing racial baggage with it, and I don’t believe I’m the best person to navigate that baggage. But jsyk, associating poor morals with slaves would be shitty regardless of racial context. If People X have all the control over People Y and you think to yourself: “Gee, I bet it’s because People Y are morally inferior,” that is bad.