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By David Futrelle
Never let it be said that Reddit’s incels lack a sense of civic engagement. Indeed, some of them seem to spend a lot of time thinking about things they would like to make illegal. Mostly things that make other people happy.
One brave “involuntarily celibate” fellow recently put forth several thoughtful legislative proposals: Immediate bans on public displays of affection, high heels, and makeup.
Naturally, TheEngineer19’s colleagues in the incels subreddit concurred, and several suggested new laws of their own.
![[deleted] 3 points 4 days ago Women should also have a male escorts who drives for her and watches her When she shops, women should have no contact with men unsupervised.](https://i0.wp.com/wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/escorts.png?ssl=1)
I’m astonished that public-minded fellows like this continue to have trouble finding dates.
The best part about this whole thing is that MANGRY is the first single.
I’m going to send you an mp3 of hard rock stuff I’ve arranged. Srsly. I used to write with one of Anthrax’s engineers; we have to make this happen.
I would show a picture of the sort of fakeup I sometimes wear, but “half-frozen half-dead with icicles dangling from chin and large frostbite marks on cheeks and forehead” isn’t a common look.
JS: When I used to go winter climbing with a full beard, I used to get the cutest little tuscicles. Better on my beard than on my skin, I used to think.
Because mild discomfort at witnessing kissy face is somehow on par with starvation.
I made up a fun game. Replace “involuntarily celibate” with “involuntarily unemployed”* (inun?) and follow the same paths of logic. Here’s an example:
Public displays of having a job should be illegal. I hate it when I’m in public and there are all these people obviously on their way to or from work, torturing me by flaunting their work uniforms, briefcases, hard hats, etc. It just rubs in the fact that no one will ever want to hire me. I think what I’m saying is that everyone should organize their whole life around not making me feel inadequate. Me me me me me me me me
Another fun exercise: imagine incel logic applied to a job interview situation.
Creepy incel guy: “Why doesn’t anyone love me?”
Same guy: “Here are a few of the ways I’ve thought up to make other people suffer for the crime of being happier than me.”
The world may never know, creepy dude. It’s a mystery for the ages.
You know, public displays of affection can be kind of annoying.
When the people doing them are doing them in rather inconvenient places, like the top of an escalator or in the middle of a narrow passage.
As long as they do them out of the way so they don’t cause me to miss my train?
More power to them, I say!
Off-topic, but wow, just wow:
Most Republicans now think colleges are bad for America
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/10/15947954/republicans-think-colleges-bad-for-america-media-pew-study
I made up a fun game. Replace “involuntarily celibate” with “involuntarily unemployed”* (inun?) and follow the same paths of logic. Here’s an example:
Public displays of having a job should be illegal. I hate it when I’m in public and there are all these people obviously on their way to or from work, torturing me by flaunting their work uniforms, briefcases, hard hats, etc. It just rubs in the fact that no one will ever want to hire me. I think what I’m saying is that everyone should organize their whole life around not making me feel inadequate. Me me me me me me me me
Another fun exercise: imagine incel logic applied to a job interview situation.
(*Serious note: being unemployed is awful and I have been unemployed for a significant stretch of time in the not-so-distant past, so I’m not making light of that situation. In fact, one of the places where this comparison breaks down is that being able to make a living, unlike having a sexual partner, is an actual necessity and a matter of public concern. Still doesn’t give you a licence to whine that other people hurting your feelings just by living their lives, though.)
@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
As if I needed one more thing to screw me over. Literally half of all Asian Americans have a college degree, do they realize just how much this basically says to all of us “I’m so glad you work hard and be our example to dunk on other minorities, now we take the one thing that helps so many of you get ahead in life. Your welcome.”
So TheEngineer is trying to tell us that he thinks pda in reality is like this? (the pigeons too engage in pda)
More tracks for Sad Boner Sharia:
Sexbot Romance
When Society Breaks Down
Government Mandated Hottie
Back to lurking now…
Dear Mamoth Hunters
I’m with you guys all the way when it comes down to calling out and ridiculing the distasteful and damaging attitudes of the pathetic MRA ‘movement’ – but is it possible that you missed the ‘joke’ of the original Reddit post. In bad taste, yes, but surely meant as a wind-up….. and it looks like it worked!?
Probably at least half of them would claim that colleges are bad in part because they educate too many non-white people. That’s snark on my part, of course, but anti-intellectualism has been a part of mainstream American culture forever, and Trump is one of its products. Obviously there’s a great respect for education in Asian cultures in general, and by and large Asian-Americans are high achievers in education. I’m most familiar with Japan, because my wife is a celebrity there — her great-great-grandfather was hired by the Japanese government in 1876 to establish a Western-style agricultural college in Sapporo, and he is still one of the most famous Americans in Japan. That’s an effect of the very high respect Japanese have for teachers — in the US he is hardly remembered at all, even though he was in effect the founder of the agricultural college that became the University of Massachusetts (which is why they hired him).
What this is all about of course is that people who go to college — particularly the better colleges — are taught to question traditional values, which very often means the values of their parents. And for families in “fly-over country,” it often means that the young go away to college and find that their home towns are just too stuck in old dysfunctional ways, so they move away for good — leaving behind a greater and greater portion of people with the outmoded traditional views. To some people, people like you are a threat because they fear that their traditional values can’t survive in their children if they are exposed to other cultural values. You shouldn’t take that sort of thing personally — people aren’t reacting to you (or to Asian-Americans in general), but to the flickering shadows you make in the firelight in their mental caves (sort of like Plato’s Cave). It’s a bit of an oversimplification, but conservatives tend to fear change and people with different cultural identities, whereas progressives tend to welcome change and to find people with different cultural identities interesting — even if there’s a certain amount of inconvenience involved. I enjoyed my visits to Japan, because it was interesting to see how a very different culture works — we all tend to think that the culture we grew up in is The Way Things Are Done, and it good to find out sooner rather than later (or not at all) that that’s just not true.
I know you’re part Vietnamese. In his book about the Vietnam War, A Bright shining Lie, Neil Sheehan writes about a South Vietnamese officer who heard a conversation between a US aid worker and a Vietnamese village leader. The aid worker was trying to persuade the village leader that his son should get a (Western-style) education because it would enable him to do more things and have more opportunities. The village leader was agreeing that his son should be educated, but with the goal that he would thereby understand that he needed to follow the traditional ways — which most of us would call indoctrination, not education. I think that’s the sort of conflict we’re dealing with here: traditionalists want their children to learn how to do things, but without having their cultural values challenged. And you can’t teach people to think without bringing received wisdom into question.
Unrelatedly, I just had to spend half an hour listening to my Republican sister rant about “The gays” and “The SJWs” (she has no idea that I’m a gay “SJW”). Who wants to get drunk with me?
In Ursula K LeGuin’s “The Dispossessed”, in the anarchist moon of Anarres it is considered as bad manners to snog in front of the unpaired as it would be to eat in front of hungry people (in private, anything goes). -In Teen Vogue recently there was a case of a boy wearing make-up which riled up the Christianists into cries of Western doom. I took a copy of the photo to show my (mixed) English class of high-schoolers in Taiwan- they were all concentrating on what the girls in the picture were wearing; when I pointed out the boy they replied “Of course he’s wearing make-up; he’s getting his picture taken.” Which was pretty sensible but left me to fill in a forty-minute discussion class.
@Stainless Steve:
What makes you sure? The subreddit’s first rule is “no trolling”, but the post has been up for days and not deleted. Only last week, another of these incels was demanding that the government “step in” to ensure he has a girlfriend.
https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2017/07/07/reddit-incel-threatens-hunger-strike-until-the-government-gives-him-a-girlfriend/
Have you … read that reddit? At all? If this is “satire” or a “joke” then the entire reddit incel community is constantly making failed satire and failed jokes with nobody ever breaking character.
I really urge you to read the reddit for a couple of hours and then come back and tell us again how we’ve been skillfully trolled. I understand the urge to think that nobody could ever seriously suggest something like this, but I assure you that there is stuff in that reddit that is 100x more toxic than this. Y’know, do the minimal research before you tell us that we’re all doofuses, for instance.
This reminds me of that episode of American Dad where Steve Smith basically becomes a school dictator and bans all public displays of affection.
New Album Reviews
Sarkeesian Slingshot, Sad Boner Sharia
These days it’s getting difficult to find a genre which hasn’t been crossed with dubstep. Sarkeesian Slingshot, the first album from newcomers Sad Boner Sharia, marks the new high-water mark of that movement. How the hell do you combine laptop dubstep with old-school girl punk?
The answer, according to this album, is “very well.”
From the very first track, Mangry, I was awed by the sheer aggression of the album. Compared to the polished ennui of so much of modern punk, this was a shot of pure unpolished anger of a sort that we haven’t heard since Black Flag. The drop is hard enough to break bones, the guitars take no prisoners, and I didn’t catch a single word of the lyrics. Amazing.
Having nailed its colours to the mast with the first track, the rest of the album is now free to take its time exploring musical themes. Elevator 4am is almost straight-up dubstep complete with sampled lyrics, while More Rational Than You and We Hunted The Mammoth are fun throwbacks to old-school underground punk, and No More Time For You shows signs of what might almost be a djent influence. At times it almost feels as if they’re breaking out and exploring a wider space, and then a hammer like Public Display of Correction hits to remind that isn’t some fucking prog album. Sad Boner Sharia are angry and they’re here to make you angry too.
I was going to give the album a solid four stars, but then I heard the hidden track The Ballad Of Richard Spencer Getting Punched In The Fucking Face. Five stars. Buy it. Buy it now.
A band named Sad Boner Sharia…
The Sharia riffers on The Engineer19’s comments might think they are being funny, but in fact they have identified exactly what drives ISIS, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and all the rest. It has absolutely nothing to do with Islam and absolutely everything to do with their sexual frustration. The sad irony is they need to attack the people who have created the society that makes them so frustrated: their family elders and imams, not the West.
But even if they do, and create a sexually free society, it will still have its incels and they will be angrier than ever.
One idea that has scared me for some time is our fascists might eventually figure out just how much they have in common with Islamic extremists.
@Stainless Steve
I don’t believe that for a moment and I’m not sure why you do, but let’s say it is a “wind-up.” What would be the goal of that wind-up? Who is it supposed to upset, and why is it targeting those people?
Honestly, does this surprise you? Rush Limbaugh has been referring to college as “liberal indoctrination” for decades. If anything now that Trump is president they feel entitled to speak their mind without filter.
It’s not terribly uncommon for men to feel entitled to controlling women’s lives and bodies. Incels take it to extremes, but dress codes imposed on women due to the supposed inability of men to control themselves and focus in the presence of female bodies are dead common. In case one wants to believe that it’s only religious fundamentalists who want women subjugated, evo psych justifications for women remaining the domestic and/or sexual class are rampant too. I can’t see any particular reason to be credulous when men on the internet express a desire to control women’s sexuality.
Will Sad Boner Sharia record “Big Brain STEM-lord”?
Sad Boner Sharia needs to be a band. I need it in my life.
We could dig through old threads and probably find enough song titles to last an entire career.
Case in point, “Misplaced Bum Syndrome.” (I know that one’s a Google Translate failure and therefore a bit of a cheat, but still.)
Just to pick up on a thread that Grumpy introduced and others have chimed in on, I think the concept of innocence isn’t discussed nearly enough in society. Not innocence as in purity of soul, I mean innocence in terms of carefully maintained and preserved ignorance.
I suspect that this is the issue with a lot of the YouTube talkers that started off in other realms but were drawn into proverbial “alt-right” sphere (namely thinking of Armoured Skeptic in this example, although name any gaming personality drawn into Gamergate and I’m sure you’ll find shades of it.) They clearly view several social justice concepts with contempt, but their tone and the way so much of what sets them off is being accused of “racism”/”sexism”/”misogyny”, it all tells me that what really pisses them off is that they’re being told that there’s a problem they have to care about and when they state what they consider the null hypothesis (“what problem?”) they get unwelcome pushback on it.
A personal example of mine is aboriginal affairs in Canada. I was born and raised in the biggest city in the country. I’ve spent 31 of my 32 years living in it, taking pride in it, eager to know as much about it as possible.
But it wasn’t until the last year that I learned that the land that Toronto specifically was built on was all but stolen from the Mississaugas of New Credit. Basically, the Toronto Purchase had permitted European settlers to build on it, but the Mississaugas’ terms never indicated that they gave up all rights to the land, so when the Europeans kept building, it basically pushed the Mississaugas out to where they live now near Brantford, Ontario. This dispute lasted 200 years until it was settled in 2010 to the tune of $10M+ Canadian.
This was not taught in schools. I only learned this after a casual Wikipedia search this year. Now that I was furnished with that knowledge, how do you think it impacted me? For the first 25 years of my lifetime, I was rising, sleeping, living on stolen property. That’s a hard pill to swallow, but neither my conscience nor my sense of intellectual honesty will allow me to just ignore it or pretend it never happened. These land disputes continue throughout Canada and examples like what happened near Oka provide a stark reminder of that.
Same thing with residential schools. Now that I know that my government attempted to exterminate aboriginal cultures en masse, and the survivors are still suffering, what would it say about me if you turned my back on them?
Once you know about a problem, there’s a moral imperative to act on it. The reason people hate BLM so much is because they’re presenting a problem to the face of white populations around the globe and saying “do something about this!” Erstwhile “moderate” white folks resented King and the civil rights movement of the 60s for much the same reason. Trans people are telling cis people they aren’t being respected. Women are telling men they aren’t being respected. Social media has made these groups harder to ignore and they’re furnishing people with knowledge that threatens their comfort in their identities and their supremacy. They can’t pretend to be innocent anymore.
Will there be Sad Boner Sharia T-shirts?
that… ain’t no joke….
When incels talk about forced marriages, why do I suspect they think they will end up with a cheerleader or model?
Lord knows there is an endless number of cheerleaders and an overabundance of models. Why, I can’t walk out my front door without tripping over a pile of cheerleaders! And a mountain of models obstructs the view from my patio! 😉
Incels making as much sense as usual, I see.
We may need an open thread for Donald Jr.’s e-mails, just released them himself because the NY Times was about to. They look pretty smoking gun.
@Tabby
Because they assume they will be able to establish their “White Sharia” and full-blown Dark Ages Patriarchy and women will not be able to cut their hair short or gain weight.
Missexceptiontotherule,
Why there are so many bodies around your house?! 😰😯 i think you might be hiding something…
@EJ
That had me internally ROFLing. 😀 So, so true. LOL!
*genuflects in admiration while humming Nazi Punks Fuck Off*
Other fun song names
“Vast Blight-wing Enstupidation” – I’m thinking ambient with falling tone off-key arpeggios, lots of dissonance for no reason, and no note falling at any standard pitch. Melody consists of say, 4 lines, never ever hitting the same note at the same time.
Trump, Jr.:
He’s setting himself up to be the only “colluder”, so his father stays away from impeachment. I can’t see any other good reason to openly admit “I planned to meet with a Russian to get information about Clinton.” Scapegoat. If he was trying to protect himself, he wouldn’t have released any of it.
Or possibly, Trump Jr. is so far into the “Trump Rethuglican reality” that he doesn’t see this as damaging.
This. If only because I have so many memes to spam.
http://i.imgur.com/CMDbAJh.gif
@Moggie
Heh…what a creative ad! It kind of drives home the point, that gender is, to a certain extent, a performance.
@grumpyoldsocialjusticemangina
Yeah, I saw that article, too. I read some of it. I couldn’t finish it, it was just too depressing.
It reminded me of something my husband told me, about a co-workers’ response to Al Gore’s candidacy in 2000: “He’s just trying to confuse us, with all those facts and figures.”
How do these people survive past infancy?
JS
There’s also the issue that he’s the only one really safe from criminal prosecution from failing to declare this meeting in an official document. His brother-in-law, Kushner, needs/needed a security clearance to work in the White House but he doesn’t.
Regardless of shielding dad – who always has the option of resigning – keeping a close family relative out of jail is probably adequate incentive.
NYT says the email chain was forwarded to Manafort’s campaign e-mail and Kushner’s work email and he talks about getting the information to his father. It doesn’t do a good job isolating it to himself at all.
I think he just panicked when NYT told him they were running a story on the emails. Lawyer Twitter is pretty certain he didn’t run the idea of tweeting the e-mails by his attorney.
I never should have made that song list for Sad Boner Sharia. That discography review sounds awesome, @EJ, and then I remembered that it wasn’t real and I was sad. I really wish I had some sort of music talent!
@Stainless Steve, that’s basically how bullies have been jerks for basically ever. Say stupid, asshole things and then retreat to “take a joke!” the moment they’re confronted. The entire call to ignore trolls is exactly the same, tailored for the internet.
To expand on the lovely and talented @Viscaria’s statement,
“winding someone up” is about making someone feel bad. You do that to people you don’t like anyways, and you do it by using the things you don’t like about them. And I don’t care what rationalizations they might give to make themselves feel better about being jerks. They’re just being bullies.
and the pre-eminent @WWTH is as correct and biting as always. “Winding up” women with blatant sexism isn’t just jokin’ around for fun. It’s as old as time and common as rain, a constant storm of abuse women weather just for being born with a particular configuration of biology.
So please pardon me if I roll my eyes at your suggestion! I’ll react how I like to jerks bein’ jerks, thank you. I’m aware they’re doing it specifically to “get a rise” out of us, and I don’t particularly care. There’s no difference between someone saying those sorts of things as a joke and someone saying them in earnest, and I’ll say it’s a terrible thing to do if I want to, cause it is!
@Gussie Jives, thank you for that lengthy post, it was very good and I feel exactly the same. Frankly I feel nauseous at times for what my European ancestors did. You ended on a strong note, too. It’s so important that we acknowledge and take responsibility for righting those wrongs and push towards a better common future.
As for the internet rationalists? Yeah, there’s a reason they think modern science is garbage and that the science of the 17th and 18th century was more “pure.” Peer review was more minimal then, and it was more about a clash of ego than it was assessment of ideas. Rationalization as reason and hero-worship of the gentleman-scientist, with solitary geniuses accomplishing great feats of wisdom. It’s just a modern mythology for men who’ve been taught that they have to be smarter, more clever, more brilliant.
I’ve started to give the side-eye to any guys who gush over science documentaries and early 20th century discoveries for this reason. Waxing poetic over the unity of space and time is lovely, but if your lesson from Einstein is “woo relativity” and not humility at his failure to accept the reality of quantum mechanics and the deep humanity he felt, you’re doing it wrong.
Thank you for that post!
#Trump Jr
ahmigah why are these people so h*ing stupid?
I mean, you wanna talk about republicans rejecting college, there you h*king go! Life these days is an unending Dunning-Kruger parade, and the candy they’re throwing is terrible. I can’t wait for it to be over and for this stupid festival of horrors to be finished with.
@Scildfreja:
All the more interesting because, when you get right down to it, quantum mechanics was what Einstein got the Nobel prize for. Not relativity.
(Specifically, Einstein got the Nobel for his work on the photoelectric effect, in which he demonstrated that some of the oddities from the photoelectric effect could be explained perfectly well if you took Max Planck’s work on quantization of light seriously, rather than just as a mathematical quirk necessary to make the ultraviolet catastrophe go away. Einstein literally helped lay the foundations that quantum mechanics was built on, and got awarded for it.)
This is nothing new. About 10-15 years ago PUA types were whining about makeup and sunglasses because they can make people look more attractive and that’s “fraud.”
@Steven Dutch
Jihadist groups actually tend to hold to teachings on sex that diverge considerably from mainstream conservative Islam. Some groups claim that it is not sinful for Muslim men to have sex with non-Muslim women outside of marriage in Western countries, and that masturbation is always okay (for dudes at least) if you’re not married and living in a Western countries. If you look at the doctrine of groups like al-Qaeda in general, it’s very cult-like and out of step with traditional Islam.
@Grumpy
I’d mostly blame the right-wing media’s coverage of the incident with Milo Yiannopoulos at UC Berkeley. The problem with that coverage is most of the anarchists at that protest were probably not students, the number of people in “social justice” majors is still fairly low, and Milo was intentionally provoking a confrontation. Milo doesn’t argue with people, he gives more of a “pep talk” in which he encourages people he agrees with and verbally abuses people he disagrees with, so it’s not like anyone shut down an open debate.
There are plenty of reasons to be extremely cautious when interpreting survey results. Opinion surveys tend to have a high margin of error, and there’s high variance if you compare the results from year to year, which should compound your margin of error. Moreover, “colleges and universities have a __________ effect on the way things are going in the country” is a bit of a loaded question.
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina:
The “boys, be ambitious” guy! That slogan still shows up today, in unexpected places!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C-jJwMxXqjM/R_8cB5v0M1I/AAAAAAAACZI/9MBSTuX-idk/s400/IMG_7143.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-crlPonU2l6Q/TtJUxLoCSWI/AAAAAAAAB-E/e0ILQR4ZT4I/s1600/outside%2Bbe%2Bambitious.jpg
http://i.yai.bz/Assets/32/584/l_p1021658432.jpg
wwth – My intoxicant of choice is cannabis when I’m alone so, if it’s okay, I’ll go get my vape with the Blackberry Kush cartridge instead of a drink and join you!
Nth-ing the wish for the Sad Boner Sharia album!
Moggie said
Where’s Paradoxy?