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Reddit Incel threatens hunger strike until the government gives him a girlfriend

Gandhi: Also went on a hunger strike for a girlfriend, or something like that

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By David Futrelle

The “Involuntarily Celibate” Redditor who calls himself Insale thinks that all he and his fellow incels need is for the media to pay a little attention to the lack of a party in their collective pants. Once the women of the world see their sad plight, Insale thinks, they will presumably line up for the opportunity to cure incels of their perpetual celibacy.

If not, well, maybe Insale will go on a hunger strike until the government steps in to issue him a girlfriend.

Anyone know how to get media attention? (self.Incels) submitted 1 day ago by insaleOptimistic I would like to have someone do a news coverage for me. The issues of inceldom and female hypergamy need to be revealed to the masses. And if I don't get a girlfriend after that, I will go on a hunger strike. I will livestream my strike until a girl gives me the relationship I need. Surely the government has to step in right? Will they provide me a companion or what? Gandhi did the hunger strikes and they were effective so why can't incels? Especially with modern tech, the news would spread faster. People from all over the world would be tuning in our live streams and maybe there's someone out there that would be willing to love and be intimate with us.

Insale’s colleagues on the Incels subreddit have not exactly been impressed by his plan.

“You’ll just be a male anorexic,” declared one commenter. “Maybe they can send you to a treatment facility and you can get rejected by the anorexic Stacies.”

“They would just laugh at you,” added another.

On the exceedingly unlikely chance that Insale actually goes through with his plan and women are indeed inspired to sign up for his offer of love and intimacy, I would strongly suggest they take a look at his comment history first. Even a cursory examination suggests that Insale’s ongoing celibacy is not the result of a lack of media exposure. It might have a bit more to do with the fact that he likes to openly fantasize about bashing women’s heads in.

Here he is offering his opinion on a YouTube video in which a woman discusses her depression.

insale 11 points 1 day ago  I want to beat her skull in and show her what real depression is when I put her in a vegetative state.

He had a similar response to a YouTube video of a different woman discussing her social anxiety.

insale 18 points 2 days ago  I want to bash her head in for faking mental illness.

Then again, he thinks all women with mental illness are faking it.

insale 1 point 2 days ago  Women can't be lonely, sad, depressed, mentally ill, humans, smart, loyal, faithful, respectable, or INCEL. Women can be whores, sluts, prostitutes, property, items, livestock, possessions, cum buckets, sex dolls, or maids.

He’s also a strong believer in “discipline” for women.

insale[S] 9 points 2 days ago  Women need to be disciplined by a proper man.

He’s also not a big fan of “femoids,” by which I think he means “feminists.”

insale[S] 0 points 22 hours ago  Femoids deserve to be punched and beat at any chance. They are not humans. Objects don't have emotions.

Naturally, he manages to see himself as the real victim.

nsale[S] 5 points 2 days ago  Society doesnt want me to be happy. I'm not good enough to be smiling. Society treats me like a subhuman.

Indeed, he thinks the government should step in on his behalf, hunger strike or no, by forcing women to have sex with him and other incels.

insale 1 point 3 days ago  Not having sex with incels is a violation of human rights. Women should be jailed for crimes against humanity

Nonetheless, he insists — at least when he is posting outside of the incel subreddit — that he is actually quite the gentleman.

insale[S] -4 points 2 days ago  Why don't I get partners? I respect women believe me. No one respects women more than I do.

Insale, like most of his fellow incels, vehemently rejects the idea of seeking professional help for his problems, dismissing therapy as a “scam” and defending his vile comments online as a form of therapeutic “venting.” In fact, even by his own admission, his exposure to the incel community online is making him angrier, more hateful, and less hopeful about the possibility of improving his life.

Indeed, several days ago he declared that the subreddit had “ruined” him.

insale[S] 9 points 2 days ago I dont know man. The nature of female behavior that I've read on this sub has completely polluted my innocence. I used to believe girls were innocent, sensitive, lovable human beings until i stumbled upon this sub and started getting influenced. permalinksavecontextfull comments (107)reportgive gold I fucking hate this sub but I can't stop coming back to read more. It has ruined me. by insale in Incels [–]insale[S] 5 points 2 days ago I would do anything to suffer from amnesia and forget everything I've learned about female nature. I'd rather live a false reality of a blue pilled cuck than be miserable black pilled incel without any hope.

The incel ideology pretty much poisons everything it touches. Media attention isn’t going to solve your problems, guys; the only way you can move forward is to free yourself of the incel community and its noxious, hateful, and self-destructive ideas.

FYI: Despite the references above to r/incels being banned by Reddit, it hasn’t been. Periodically the mods of the subreddit set it to “private.”

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QuantumInc
QuantumInc
3 years ago

Reddit Incel threatens hunger strike until the government gives him a girlfriend
July 7, 2017 We hunted..

I read an article claiming, ironically, that the term “incel” was originally coined by a woman, and telling her story. I think the incel community reached this state at a slow but steady pace. Being the most extreme guy in a community of extremists wins you validation, so everyone “ups the ante” and the consensus slowly shifts. The only way to shift it back to something moderate is if the community values balance, or nuance, or accuracy of facts, (which they don’t) or if outsiders are able to give them regular reality checks (which they can’t).

During the 20th century came the idea that a “Real Man”(TM) is one who has lain with a variety of women. This idea got so strong that lots of young men become insecure if they haven’t “gotten laid” enough. Not news for the feminists on this website, but you might be underestimating how big of a deal this is for some men. Hopefully a guy will eventually get enough reality checks to realize that sex isn’t about winning, that human connection with a woman he loves is more important than a one night stand, but some men fall through the cracks and become obsessed with “getting laid”. They feel like they’ve failed at being a man, at being a male human if they can’t “score”. “Loser” is one of the worse insults for men, it implies life is a competition and you’ve lost, and it is usually thrown at men who don’t have enough sex, (or the wrong kind). Their sexual frustration is about much more than sexual activity.

There are a lot of people with depression and anxiety and social anxiety (like me), which can make dating the opposite sex nearly impossible (haha me too). Of course if you also happen to subscribe to the cult of the alpha-male you are not going to blame your loneliness and sexlessness on your psychological issues, you are going to turn your feelings into hate and direct at “teh enemy!!!!” They think they would be finally happy if they could become alpha-males. They think they could achieve the vaunted alpha-male-hood if only women would finally grant access to the all important Vajayjay.

These guys are already mentally unhealthy and socially isolated even without the alt-right. With the alt-right they have people who will validate certain delusions, and the ability to get quick validation by being more and more extreme, they get the dopamine high of righteous anger, they can blame all their problems on other people. I think the alt-right is basically a unhealthy coping mechanism for an entire community of men with severe psychological problems. The fact that some of these communities get more and more extreme over time is a side effect of how the coping mechanism works.

The community does infact help these lonely guys, but obviously causes more problems than it solves. It’s like trying to treat your psychological depression with heroin, only works temporarily and then makes things worse than before. Without human connections outside the alt-right they never get the reality check they so sorely need. Indeed they would instantly rebuke any facts you through their way. As the community grows, their influence of the real world grows, and ther inflence of the real world on them shrinks. So like a heroin addiction that hurts everyone else too.

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men. What feminists call “Toxic Masculinity” socializes men to believe they are failures at life if they don’t get laid. The alt-right community gives them temporary relief from their issues, but makes things worse in the long run.

Part_Neanderthal
Part_Neanderthal
3 years ago

I literally laughed out loud when I saw the title of this post. Reading it made me experience a range of emotions, from amusement to horror to sadness. Maybe that’s why I keep coming back to this blog–Never know how you’ll feel reading from post to post.

Not sure how to put this, but I’m morbidly fascinated by incels. Probably because of all of the “manospherians,” these were the bunch that, had I delved into 4chan and reddit, I would have been more likely to become. I certainly feel their pain; rejection sucks, and untreated mental illness really can warp your view until the bile spewed in the incel community starts to make a sick sort of sense. I’ve experienced it myself when a depressive bout comes over me; it is like it warps reality and suddenly everything is awful no matter how good things are going. I’ve heard the term “emotional reasoning,” meaning reasoning from feelings rather than being rational, and based on my own experiences it seems that a lot of this type of thinking comes from “feeling it’s true”. The emotions are the well-spring of the thoughts, which further reinforce the emotions, and so on. Resulting in a positive feedback loop. So the means of moving on is to deal with the issue on two levels: the rational and the gut level. Learning to think through things to see if they actually make sense in a logical way, and also learning to be mindful of emotions and see them for what they really are. However, this takes a lot of deep reflection and painful, painful honesty. Let me tell you, it isn’t easy to change your thinking, and it is incredibly easy to slip back into old thought processes.

On a side note, by their standards I am probably an “incel,” since I’m 29 and a technical virgin with very little likelihood of that changing in the near future. But, well, this fact isn’t really anyone’s fault. And in making a point of mentioning my “Scarlet V” the responses I’ve had have been…enlightening. Not many care if you’re a virgin. And you might even get kudos for your self control. So, it doesn’t really matter. Being an older virgin might mean a lack of opportunity, or a lack of socialization (in my case), or any number of things. It isn’t a reflection of your worth as a person, just as having a large number of partners is equally meaningless in terms of your value as a human being.

Side side note: my family is on a big DNA test kick. Taking the results with a grain of salt, but my screen name came from the fact that we have a lot of Neanderthal DNA in our heritage. Cool stuff!

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

QuantumInc — I think you are mostly right. There is a great deal of pressure on young men to “prove their manhood,” and having sex with a lot of attractive young women seems to be one of the requirements. Being seen as a stud (not necessarily being one) confers a great deal of status in some male groups.

But the problem is that the self-image of young men* is under constant attack, and if you accept the validity of “toxic masculinty,” you subject yourself to standards that only a tiny percentage (if any) of men can satisfy, which leads to the result that you can never have enough sex with enough sufficiently attractive women to ever make you feel that you have achieved irrevocable manhood.

It seems obvious to me that incels are actually voluntarily celibate, but either they are not ready for a sexual relationship (quite understandable, but something no Real Man ™ is allowed to admit), or they are afraid of getting emotionally involved with someone and therefore becoming vulnerable (Real Men ™ are NEVER vulnerable or not in total control of their emotions). Blaming it all on the notion that women aren’t attracted to them for totally shallow and spurious reasons (wrist size, my ass) is a way of saying “It’s not my fault; it’s women and their hypergamous nature.” I’m not sure whether the misogynistic attitudes that are actually what repels women are just a part of the woman-blaming excuse or are actually cultivated to keep the fearsome women beyond arm’s length. But it does seem like the incel thing is a coping mechanism for fears about one’s masculinity.

When I was a teenager, I assumed that girls didn’t find me attractive because I was a total nerd and ranked fairly low in the boys’ pecking order. I have since discovered that girls have different ideas about what they find attractive than my male peers thought they did. At the time, sex was not an issue, because it was unthinkable for college-bound members of my high-school class to have sex. Birth control of any kind was simply not available to kids from “respectable” homes, and the girls were very well aware of what a pregnancy would do to their life plans — and the boys understood that. So being an “incel” in the literal sense was unavoidable and therefore there was no virgin-shaming at all. (Then I went to prep school for a year, and virgin-shaming was there intense — so I can understand the phenomenon. It was so intense that my 18-year-old roommate was very proud when he lost his, even though his “conquest” was a 12-year-old town girl.) I was very unhappy that women didn’t seem to want to sleep with me in college. (I know now that there were some who WERE probably interested, but I was so convinced that I was unattractive that I did not pick up on the signs at the time.) But it never occurred to me to blame women for not wanting to sleep with me — I always assumed that it was my job to be the sort of guy they wanted to sleep with, and if I didn’t succeed, well, that was on me. (As it happened, when the Sexual Revolution hit, I was already married.)

So I tend to see the incel thing as one way of coping with the unattainable demands of Real (Toxic) Manhood. One can only hope that these (mostly fairly) young guys can snap out of it before they are permanently warped. The incel echo chambers are unquestionably a serious obstacle to real adulthood.

*I am pretty sure that the same is true for young women, but I don’t have direct personal experience of that.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
3 years ago

Don’t confuse MRAs with incels. They may seem interchangeable because they both hate women with every fiber and harp on women constantly and to the exclusion of all else, but they have some minuscule differences that put a tiny bit of daylight between them.

Incel: Women suck, because they don’t have sex with men like me.

MRA: Women suck, because if they ever have sex with men like me, it’s just for child support monies.

MGTOW: Women generally suck; having sex with them is not worth marriage, divorce and child support.

PUA: With this one simple trick, you can bypass women’s sucky sexual agency and have children without supporting them.

Neomasculinity: Women suck, because they’re ruining society with their promiscuity and unsupported children.

Red Pill: What if I told you that women suck?

Black Pill: Don’t you tell me how much women suck!

yzek
yzek
3 years ago

“It’s pretty clear that this Insale character doesn’t care whether or not women actually want to be with him.”

You basically described a prostitute client’s attitude. It’s funny whevener someone comes up with this “cure” for incels. Hey, those nutjobs spend days writting crazy ideas about turning women to sex objects for their pleasure in internet? Why won’t they try it FOR REAL?

Y.

Bryce
Bryce
3 years ago

@Hashtag Ravenclaw

Maybe I’m just prideful or something, but who the fuck is desperate enough to look explicitly for pity sex? Who wants to sleep with a person who doesn’t love and/or respect them? Do incels objectify women to such a point that they no longer care what a woman truly thinks of them, so long as she puts out?

38 and in the same boat as you. Yes, except I don’t think it’s even pity they’re after. I have to admit that in my lowest moments I’ve had fantasies of pity relationships being thrown my way, but for self-esteem’s sake it always involved some desire on their part.

They want the government to give them a companion. As if a woman were the equivalent of a food stamp, wartime rations, or a sack of grain. Women’s desires are completely irrelevant it seems. even from the perspective of their own egos.

Sally
Sally
3 years ago

Yzek: yes, thank you.
Pretty funny how pro-prostitution folks have different standards on how its ok to treat a woman depending on whether or not shes a prostitute. U hate wome w a frightening passion? Well go see a prostitute, those dont count, its ok to hurt them 😀

guest
guest
3 years ago

One of the things that strikes me about this thinking is that the poster wants ‘a woman’. Because ‘women’ are fungible.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@Arctic Ape
Thanks for the laugh (yet again). You’re a treasure.

@yzek

Hey, those nutjobs spend days writting crazy ideas about turning women to sex objects for their pleasure in internet? Why won’t they try it FOR REAL?

@Sally

Pretty funny how pro-prostitution folks have different standards on how its ok to treat a woman depending on whether or not shes a prostitute. U hate wome w a frightening passion? Well go see a prostitute, those dont count, its ok to hurt them 😀

I don’t know who suggested that incels do this but I certainly fucking didn’t. As WWTH said, why wish these guys on sex workers? In any case it’s pretty clear that incels don’t want to have sex with prostitutes.
More importantly: I’m “pro-prostitution” if by that you mean someone who doesn’t necessarily want sex work banned or stopped in the name of feminism. I’ve done sex work and I have several friends ‘in the industry’. One of them was murdered by a client a little while ago. So no, I don’t think that it’s ok to hurt sex workers and I don’t think anyone else here does either. I’d appreciate you not making assumptions.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
3 years ago

@yzek

Might want to read the comments policy, buddy. We don’t take kindly to ablist slurs around here.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

Yzek is a troll from 4Chan, so.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

I don’t know who suggested that incels do this

It was someone on the first page called “covered in cat hair” whom I’ve never seen before, and for all I know that was yzek’s or Sally’s sock. That’s certainly nothing I’ve seen a regular here say. I was going to push back on the idea that the cure for incels is sex workers, because who wants to inflict them on sex workers? but WWTH beat me to it.

That kind of shit never goes unchallenged here.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

What’s with Sally only coming here to say Swerfy things? Does she lurk every day and wait for someone to bring up sex work?

Sally, when you’re jumping into the comments to agree with and thank an anti-feminist troll, you might want to rethink your feminism.

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

QuantumInc,
That’s why its called toxic masculinity. We’re well aware that patriarchy hurts men too. What’s with the scare quotes?

When we speak up about it we are told we just want to feminize men or that we are calling all masculinity bad.

Lea
Lea
3 years ago

Agreeing that sex workers should be respected and safe with their clientele.

Supporting sex workers rights to do the work they choose safely isn’t what Is call pro-prostitution.

I feel the same way about coal miners, EMTs, actors and lumberjacks.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
3 years ago

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men.

I think you’re ‘splaining to people who do fully understand that. Why would you make the assumption that feminists just can’t grasp what men go through?

History Nerd
History Nerd
3 years ago

@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina

I think it’s deeper than virgin shaming. I went to high school in the mid 2000’s (in a relatively liberal area, where birth control was readily available and we all got comprehensive sex education) and the “respectable” people didn’t date or have sex. My guess is that incels have already been blaming women or people in general for their problems, and they go on the Internet and end up radicalized.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m sick and fucking tired of people acting like insecurity and pressures regarding sex and relationships is somehow gendered.

Just because the movies portray it that way, doesn’t mean it’s the reality.

Men seem to think young women don’t spend a lot of time being made to feel like shit because no one asked them to prom or they haven’t had a boyfriend yet because the only women visible to them are the pretty and socially adept ones who are pursued by the good looking guys.

It’s not just young women either. As we get older, there’s immense pressure on us to be married and we’re socialized to tie our self worth in with our relationship status. There’s even a derogatory term for unmarried women. Spinster. There’s no equivalent term for men. They’re just bachelors.

As someone who spent years of my life beating myself up for not being sufficiently attractive to men (other than street harassers) I just loooove it when men tell women that we just don’t understand how much it hurts men to be lonely and feel rejected.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
3 years ago

Only a small handful of my ‘clique’ in high school weren’t virgins thru graduation. Millennials, the younger ones in particular, tend to have less sex, at least early on, than previous generations. I do think that part of the ‘incel’ phenomenon is related to that. These dudes (a lotta them fairly young) assumed high school and college gals were just gonna be throwing blowjobs at em, and, when they got none, they assumed it was cos Stacy was tossing at Chad instead

None of which, of course, is to say that these guys’ bitter entitlement is anyone’s fault but their own. They can’t see women as being individuals (some millennials abstain, some have lotsa sex, some in the middle), nor can they accept them as people (with agency, humanity, and rights). That’s their own failing

‘Incel’ doctrine states that any attempt to better oneself in order to get sex/relationships is a waste of time. And, fellas, you’re not wrong. That’s a recipe for failure, and, more than likely, relapse into deeper bitterness when you realize women can still say no. My advise, and y’all fuckers really don’t deserve it, make yourself into the type of person that you would like to be around and with. Maybe you get some dates by being a decent, non trash, person. But, if ya did it right, it won’t really matter, cos you won’t need to base your value on whether you’ve gotten laid. Just a thought…

JS
JS
3 years ago

Ah, yzek, the returning troll. Must have gotten bored again.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
3 years ago

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men.

You forget that many of us are men. We’ve had to deal with this shit too.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’ve said it before here, but I think another one of the reasons that men think that pain around not being successful at dating or hooking up being gendered is that they do not realize that being pursued actually does take social skills. The traditional female dating role does not involve sitting there passively and accepting or rejecting suitors.

Women are expected to be open, friendly and flirtatious so that men will want to ask us out. But we can’t be too friendly. Too aggressive with the flirting and we’re seen as slutty and desperate. Men are always saying they wish we’d be assertive and make the first move, but when we do that, we’re often punished for it socially. However, if we don’t flirt enough, we’re cold and unapproachable. There’s a thin line we have to walk and the line is arbitrary and ever shifting.

Look at dating advice for women. It’s filled with instructions on how to touch his arm in the proper flirtatious but not slutty way. Make eye contact, but only for a certain amount of time. Don’t stare! Laugh at his jokes, even if they’re not funny. Be witty, but don’t act like you’re smarter than him. Be interested in the same things he likes, but don’t be better than him at his hobbies. The male ego must always be flattered. We can’t seem uppity. But we still must be confident. Because insecurity is unattractive. But still be vulnerable because men like to feel strong and tough and needed.

Then there’s all the rules about our appearance. Break these rules and we’re ugly and doomed to spinsterhood. Wear makeup. But it has to be natural looking or it’s tacky and slutty. Look perfect at all times, but don’t spend to much time on looking perfect. Or else you’re vain. Work out, but only to get slimmer. Don’t be too buff. Be thin. But don’t diet too much. Because that’s vain and besides it’s boring when women only order soda and diet coke. Wear clothes that make you look hot, but don’t look too sexy. And don’t ever express insecurity over how clothes make you look. Be beautiful but be the kind of beautiful where you don’t know you’re beautiful but don’t think you’re ugly either. And for God’s sake don’t let on that you have any kind of bodily functions!

I mean, I’m not saying that traditional dating roles are always easy for men. But they seem a lot easier than the woman’s traditional role. Really, I wish it was more socially acceptable for women to make the first move. It’s hard for a socially awkward person to put themselves out there like that (I speak from experience) but it’s a hell of a lot easier following a list of complex and ever changing rules in the hopes that you’ll get a guy to ask you out.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men.

I disagree.

Reason for disagreement: I’m a man who was deeply insecure about sex when he was younger. Just because I’m a feminist doesn’t mean that I wasn’t there.

However, unlike many other men, I also recognise that my own feelings of inadequacy are not anyone’s problem other than my own.

Edit:

I mean, I’m not saying that traditional dating roles are always easy for men. But they seem a lot easier than the woman’s traditional role. Really, I wish it was more socially acceptable for women to make the first move.

This. As ever, WWTH speaks truth. Traditional gender roles are simply a bad thing (unless you choose to follow them, in which case more power to you.)

History Nerd
History Nerd
3 years ago

People born 1950-1979 abouts tended to have more sex earlier, in part because condoms and the birth control pill became much more widely available. Over time, people started having less sex for various reasons, and the “sexual revolution” had died down a bit by the time millennials were in high school and college.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

I’ve said it before here, but I think another one of the reasons that men think that pain around not being successful at dating or hooking up being gendered is that they do not realize that being pursued actually does take social skills. …

I think the reason that incel mans think that the pain of dating and hooking up is gendered is because they don’t consider women whole people with actual human wants or desires.

They’re sexbots, or children, or sub-humans, or whatever flavour of insult that’s popular this week. I don’t think they’re able to even think about women as people, because as soon as the “woman” thought arises it dredges with it this horrible slime-coated benthic net of hate and anger and fear. The very concept of woman-as-person is suffocated under the mass of anger they’ve dredged from the depths.

And that slimy net, that abyssal trawling line filled with the corpses of rotten dreams? That’s what places like r/Incels fills your net with. That’s the stinking catch our procrustean protagonist sails out for, every day. Every morning, every time he browses over to Reddit, he’s sailing out to dredge up some quivering aquatic corpse of hyperbolic misery. Drowning himself in the hate, because it’s easier to do that than face the fact that the world owes him nothing.

In short, I totally agree, @wwth! I got sorta metaphoric in there for some reason. Woops.

Some people have said hello to me and welcomed me back. Hello! I didn’t miss you, just wasn’t browsing on something I could type on easily at the time. I’ve missed you all!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I think the reason that incel mans think that the pain of dating and hooking up is gendered is because they don’t consider women whole people with actual human wants or desires.

Yeah, that’s true of incels. But the reason men who don’t identify as incel always rush into these kind of threads to express sympathy for them or explain to us that it’s painful for men to not have the romance or sex life they desire is because the idea that women just sit there doing nothing and suitors drop into her lap permeates our whole culture. It mixes with another widespread misogynistic idea in our culture, that men’s pain is serious, even epic and women’s pain is trivial and silly. It’s a toxic brew and it enables incel thinking every bit as much as incel sites themselves do. They’re just taking common cultural narratives about sex, dating, and each gender’s roles in them to the logical extreme.

It pretty much never fails. Men spew violent misogyny complete with incredibly disturbing fantasies about beating, raping and subjugating women and it’s a guarantee someone will see it and feel bad for the misogynist instead of the targets of the virulent misogyny.

It’s not just that men are afraid women are going to laugh at them and women are afraid men are going to kill them that’s the problem. It’s that men being laughed at is seen as a more serious issue than women being killed. That’s what pisses me off even more.

Ack. I know I rant about this stuff way too much

comment image

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
3 years ago

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men.

Aside from the fifty other reasons why this is stupidly wrong – howsabout how damaging your insecurities can be for the women you fuckpatrols rape and murder and somehow worse in misplaced response? We’re aware of how figuratively damaging your insecurities are to you, but are you aware of how literally damaging they are to us?

[insert one of those dude-staring-while-maths-equations-fly-around .GIFs with Quantum’s avatar pasted on top here]

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

You are 100% correct in all of that <3 If anything, I'd correct myself to say that it isn't just incels that don't see women as actual people; it's all of society.

Rant if it makes you feel better! Just make sure you try to put down the frustration when you're done ranting, or it'll just make it worse.

http://orig05.deviantart.net/fb95/f/2015/305/9/9/rainy_day_animated_illustration_by_fluttershythekind-d9f8dls.gif

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ scildfreja

That’s a very sweet cartoon; but why would a duck need an umbrella?! They’re literally famous for not being bothered about getting wet.

JS
JS
3 years ago

(Not original, TTO: Stars and Stripes Forever, which does have other more “official” lyrics that are more nationalistic than these)

Be kind to your web-footed friends.
For a duck may be somebody’s mother.
They live all alone in the swamp,
Where the weather is cold and damp.
Well, you may think that this is the end.
Yes, it is, but to prove that you are wrong,
We’re going to sing it once again,
Oh, yes we will, but it will be just a bit louder!

guest
guest
3 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes and weirwoodtreehugger I just wanted to thank you both for your last few comments–a lot of that was insightful and beautifully put, especially this: ‘It’s that men being laughed at is seen as a more serious issue than women being killed.’ That really does seem to be the case, now that you’ve put it so plainly.

And also @weirwoodtreehugger GoT next week!!

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

@History Nerd: That was the closing song of the Mitch Miller Sing Along program in the early 60s, except that after “you may think this is the end”, then next line was “Well it is” and the program ended abruptly.

Mitch Miller was the head of A&R at Columbia Records, and is best known for having declined to sign the Beatles because he thought they were nothing but a passing fad. (He generally hated rock & roll, and basically refused to sign R&R performers.)

guest
guest
3 years ago

@JS the version I remember is

Well you may think that this is the end
But it ain’t and to prove that I’m no liar
We’ll sing it straight through once again,
But only this time it will be a little higher!

[then you do it again a key higher]

Hippielady (of the all powerful hair)
Hippielady (of the all powerful hair)
3 years ago

It’s not just that men are afraid women are going to laugh at them and women are afraid men are going to kill them that’s the problem. It’s that men being laughed at is seen as a more serious issue than women being killed.

@WWTH This. So much this. You put it so eloquently and succinctly it actually brought a tear to my eye because it sometimes seems so hopeless–like no matter how hard we try we’ll get to where we want to be. I keep having to tell myself that things are better than they were when I was a young woman (I’m 54 now). At the very least I have raised my daughter and my sons to be feminists, so there is some hope for the future.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@Alan, self-damaging self-sacrifice beyond all need or reason is sort of my character flaw, and also Fluttershy’s. It seemed appropriate! Also, just look at his little ducky face he’s so happy

<3 @Hippielady and @guest

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

It pretty much never fails. Men spew violent misogyny complete with incredibly disturbing fantasies about beating, raping and subjugating women and it’s a guarantee someone will see it and feel bad for the misogynist instead of the targets of the virulent misogyny.

This is something I’ve noticed people doing (including myself). Once I started trying to stop doing it myself, I started noticing it everywhere.

I notice that there’s a racial aspect to it: people seem to be more likely to sympathise with a white who says something abhorrent, but feel angry at a man of colour who says the same thing. I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand whether this is a privilege thing or just a bigotry thing. I’d be interested in hearing the view of people who know more than I do.

History Nerd
History Nerd
3 years ago

@Grumpy

You mean JS, I believe 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ scildfreja

self-damaging self-sacrifice beyond all need or reason is sort of my character flaw

I’m very hesitant to call that a flaw. Compassion is a wonderful thing; and the world would be a much nicer place if everyone was like you.

It is something though I really notice with a number of my friends that their surfeit of kindness (if such a thing is possible) really takes its toll. That complete lack of selflessness sometimes means they don’t consider their own needs and that can be harmful. I’m sure I don’t need to explain it to you of all people. But it’s that thing that so long as there’s any injustice or suffering in the world they feel they can’t take any time to prioritise their own needs without a crushing guilt cutting in.

It’s weird but I do find myself giving ‘permission’ to some friends that it’s ok to take some time out for their own needs, or even just a break or a bit of fun. You can’t save the whole world, but you’re doing more than most in just helping some; and that’s something you are allowed to feel good about rather than beating yourself up because you can’t help everyone or operate 24/7/365.

ETA: He does look very happy. I like to think that’s because, although he’d be perfectly content in the rain, he knows it makes Fluttershy happy to help, so he’s going along with it.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
3 years ago

It’s not just that men are afraid women are going to laugh at them and women are afraid men are going to kill them that’s the problem. It’s that men being laughed at is seen as a more serious issue than women being killed.

WWTH, you are brilliant. This is the best summation I have ever seen.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
3 years ago

“Horrible slime-coated benthic net of anger, hate, and fear”?!
Scildfreja, that is a wonderfully vivid metaphor for the phenomenon.

“Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the Red Pill.” Lavish apologies to George Lucas.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

EJ: I myself am more likely to tolerate questionable remarks on the part of non-white people, on the grounds that they have much better reasons for being angry and making intemperate remarks than white people. Now, some people might say that that’s racism of lower expectations, but I don’t think so.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Thanks all for your kind words. *blushes*

EJ,

It’s definitely a function of male, straight and white or at least perceived white* privilege that they can say the horrible things they do and still get sympathy. Their words also don’t do splash damage to non-incel straight white men. It’s not assumed that incels represent them all.

Can you imagine a feminist subreddit in which women said the exact same things incels say, only gender flipped? Schrodinger’s rapist, Feminist Frequency videos and Rebecca Watson’s video about not wanting to be hit on in an elevator at 4 in the morning after just having given a talk about women not wanting to be creeped on at atheist conventions all caused gigantic tantrums over the misandry of it all and they aren’t even actually man hating. I’m not even exaggerating when I say that a gender reversed incel forum would cause manospherians to commit mass murder.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

@wwth – an example that supports this is the staggering number of times I’ve seen manospherians on Twitter scream about Valerie Solanas (SCUM, etc.), when attacking feminism. A book published in 1967 utterly enrages them.
So, yeah. Good call – again 🙂

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
3 years ago

Mish: Yes, almost every time I’ve heard manospherians rave about the violence of feminists, The SCUM Manifesto is what they bring up as Exhibit A. And I may well be wrong, but whenever I’ve read it, it seems like mostly snark to me.

WWTH: well, a gender-reversed incel forum isn’t really credible, because women in general don’t do malice very well. But, yes, the dudes are AWFULLY snowflaky — the Toxic Masculinity Syndrome makes dudes terribly fragile. As they say, straight men are afraid of gay men because they’re afraid the gays will think of them the way they think of women.

Tosca; Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
Tosca; Chaos made Flesh, Servant of the Purring Jew
3 years ago

I think feminists underestimate how damaging insecurities around sex can be for men.

And your point is…?

If a man has insecurities, it’s up to him to deal with them. As many commentators have already pointed out, feminism seeks to dismantle toxic ideas of gender identity and masculinity. It’s not us who are insisting that a man’s worth lies in how many women he’s slept with.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
3 years ago

Alan

But it’s that thing that so long as there’s any injustice or suffering in the world they feel they can’t take any time to prioritise their own needs without a crushing guilt cutting in.

And the guilt rolls on. Mrmagnificent and I were both union reps and we also, for a couple of years had our home number as the contact number for a legal service. (He was secretary of the society.) Most of those calls were simply a matter of looking up who was that day’s duty solicitor and giving it to the person whose door the cops were knocking down. But a few were extraordinarily distressing – rather than ringing in an emergency, these were people at the end of a years long tether. And some of them rang repeatedly and got threatening into the bargain. The cops were helpful in those cases but, this is where the guilt comes in, we never considered not doing it.

Same thing goes for the union rep stuff. I occasionally gave my home number to members who were having a really hard time. Sometimes this resulted in a gift of a potplant or a concert ticket. Other times it could mean weeks on end of almost nightly phone calls that went for hours. Talk about union-rep-as-therapist! (I’ll admit there was also a fair dose of office gossip mixed in, but hey ho.) When the phone rang and husband realised who it was this time he’d just bring me a cup of coffee to get me through it. Once again, I rarely interrupted and said that I had to do something with/for the kids or husband.

Now when I look back, I feel a bit guilty about putting so much home time into non-home, non-family people when my children were, most of the time, right there in the house with me. Still, one of them is a union rep herself now – but I very much doubt she’d let anyone intrude on her private life the way I/we did.

EJ (the Scheming Liberal Race-Traitor)

@Grumpy:
That’s very interesting, thank you.

I find myself doing what you do on a conscious, intellectual level; but if I examine my intuitive responses that come from how I was socialised, then I find it’s the other way around. You may be different, or you may have confronted your socialisation more effectively.

From a South African perspective, I observe that white people are likely to make excuses for white men, Zulu people for Zulu men, and so on (generalising hugely here). It seems to be less about racial privilege than it is about one’s intuition being trained to stand in solidarity with “your own kind.” I don’t know enough social theory to understand how to approach this.

@WWTH:
To add to the congratulatory voices: You’re awesome and one of the reasons this community is as great as it is.

It’s difficult for me to imagine a female forum that’s as hateful and violent as incel forums are. Incel – and redpill more generally – feels like a very male response to feelings of white entitled frustration. They’ve been raised on stories in which white male heroes respond to perceived injustice by visiting violence upon others until the problem goes away, and have been taught to believe that compromise is a sign of weakness. When they combine this socialisation with their complaint that they don’t own all things by default, it results in redpillishness and inceldom. I’m not going to say that white women can’t also be entitled, but in my experience they handle it differently.

I suspect that if such a forum were to suddenly spring into existence, then we’d see redpillers first laugh and then panic. Their whole model of women seems to be based on the assumption that women are helpless targets upon whom violence can be visited but who will not strike back. If they’re faced with the threat of massive violent resistance then they’d probably scoff at it at first, then get more alarmed, and finally forget their personal heroic fantasies in order to demand that the government handle it.

These are people who’re happy to threaten personal violence upon Rebecca Watson or Emma Watson, but are mysteriously silent when it comes to Christina Hammer or Alejandra Jiménez Ayala. They’re eager to hold up Valerie Solanas as a model of a “violent radical feminist”, but somehow haven’t noticed the Peshmerga.

Redpillers do their violence in a very white way, thinking about it.

Michael Lindsay
Michael Lindsay
3 years ago

I wonder if he’s the same chap who used to go around various boards threatening to do a mass shooting if the government didn’t get him a girlfriend.

Spoiler, that didn’t work either.

Ellesar
Ellesar
3 years ago

The SCUM Manifesto is what they bring up as Exhibit A. And I may well be wrong, but whenever I’ve read it, it seems like mostly snark to me.

I have read it (30+ years ago) and I wasn’t sure. But whatever it was it was nearly 50 years ago, and Solanas was an embarrassment to feminism because of her apparent extremism – she deteriorated in her mental health and died in obscurity in a women’s hostel in the 80s.