By David Futrelle
Today’s MGTOW of the Day, fresh from the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, has a rather unique perspective on the relative values of men and women. As he sees it, women are vastly inferior creatures whose only value stems from the fact that they can er, carry seed.
Men, by contrast, are … buses.
I’m not sure MGTOWs have quite mastered the fine art of the metaphor yet.
I’m not a regular poster here (obvs, first time poster, whee!) but I do read the site semi-frequently because I enjoy the articles. This one was no exception, and I went to the comments to giggle over what was certain to be a “really, you’re calling me stupid when you don’t even know basic grammar?” popcorn-fest. And at first, that’s what was happening. Then, I got to page 2.
I get that this is a space where women go to let out frustrations about douchebag dudes, I really do. I am a woman, I have similar frustrations. However, I really think it’s important that, when a maybe-former-douchebag dude is trying to learn, and trying to cross over the barrier, that we not throw rocks at him until he drops back to the other side of the fence. I agree that it shouldn’t be anyone’s job to educate dudebro’s if they don’t want it to be, but some of you folks are essentially shaming OTHER people/women for wanting to help him. He may be doing it clumsily, but Afro is asking to be corrected. Perhaps that’s with bad intentions, but what if it’s not? What if he’s sincere?
It’s difficult for any human being not to get defensive, and not to respond when called out, especially when they’re already doing something that makes them feel vulnerable. I’m no exception; I often have to literally ignore threads I said I wouldn’t return to, because I know if I go back and read something unfair (or, more commonly, just stupid, haha) I’ll feel an unholy urge to respond and break what I said. I don’t blame Afro for having the same feelings. It seems he’s trying to improve, and I applaud him for it.
Sure, he deleted his reddit account. But, instead of doing it to HIDE something, maybe he did it because he realized that what he posted there wasn’t okay and was ashamed of it and didn’t want it to exist, anymore? Sure, he asked for his username to be banned because he felt too weak not to keep responding to comments directed at him; but I believe there’s a lot of people who would find that difficult, and at least he’s honest and tried to take steps to make the “I won’t comment again” concept (dare I say it) involuntary. Involuntary comment celibacy… incomcel? Hehe, I tickle myself.
Afro, dude, I know you can’t respond, but I do applaud your effort to learn and grow, and I hope it’s sincere. I wish you well in your development. It is kinda the case that you came to a space where women are spun up about ignorant dudes, and tried pulling a logically fallible and fairly frustrating “no true Scotsman” argument. Accept that you were part of a group that seems at best not to sufficiently spurn problematic viewpoints, and at worst to outright foster them. Then, stop trying to defend that group from that charge. Otherwise, you’ll probably keep getting frosty receptions from groups those viewpoints harm. And perhaps try to find a more middle-ground place to address your questions/thoughts about feminism– or even just a counselor, if you haven’t already, to work on your own insecurities, as that seems to be a pretty big source of your problematic thinking. Good luck, either way, and keep fighting the good fight against blaming your problems on innocent bystanders! 😀
Aulma – It got way worse, too. He made everyone else uncomfortable and relished it.
Husbeast told me later that he was supposedly banished from the property but showed up anyway using the computer repair thing as an excuse and stayed because hey, other guild members! I have to wonder if he’s potentially violent and if that’s why no one bounced his banished ass.
I think I got through to Husbeast on the ride home that remarks like that* work as signals that reinforce acceptance of sexism among men and also serve to intimidate women. They tend to set off warning bells for many women (for good reason) and they shouldn’t get a pass from feminist men.
*And yes, there were more sexist remarks in the course of things that evening.
@Shiya Welcome! ❤ I’m too lazy to read the whole Afro thread but your viewpoint seems reasonable to me.
I literally did not see this happen. Quote or reference?
@Hambeast
Wow that dude seems fishy as hell. I see we all have creeps in our lives. I’m happy to see that so many of us are able to sniff the toxicity around us and call it out. Good job. Men need to know when something’s wrong. I hope your husband got the message.
Thank you, Aulma!
Policy: It’s kind of an implied shaming; people were trying to talk to him about his thoughts, and instead of just letting that go and ignoring him, there were lots of people saying, “Well, I’m uncomfortable with you being here!” This caused at least one other poster who had previously been helpful to decide that they had changed their minds and were no longer going to engage, or at least that’s what that poster’s comment seemed to say to me.
Which would be Violet the Ville’s post on page three, which I’ll quote in its entirety so as to not have any selection bias, and I hope I’m doing this right!
Which, I mean, legit feelings, I recognize and understand being concerned about a potentially fake dudebro coming in and pooping up the joint, but it’s okay to ignore him. Saying, “Well, I’m not going to comment on you any further than to TELL you how I’m not going to comment towards you!” is pretty similar at a squint to “I’m not going to comment again AFTER THIS” which is a tactic people were kinda going squinty-eyed at him for. If you want to tell him something helpful and then disengage, just DO that. Tell him the helpful thing. Then just don’t respond anymore, and let people who ARE willing to respond try to put out the dumpster fire that is a potentially repentant dudebro’s evolving world view. If no one’s willing to engage, then no one will engage, and he’ll either continue talking to himself into eternity or get bored and leave. If he’s not being threatening or aggressive or offensive, I don’t see the harm in letting him buzz around. Then again, I am the type to catch flies and spiders in cups and put them outside, so perhaps my tolerance for buzzing is higher than most. 🙂
@Shiya
You seem like a person that likes to see the good in people, no matter how small that good is. That’s awesome and I want to achieve that state of mind! But I’d like you to know, that while I was being nice to afroaway, I never felt shamed or irritated by the other commenters doing the opposite. I understood their positions and they can be them, I’ll be me. Its all good! But thank you for sticking up for me!
People are allowed to say that they are uncomfortable, and that is not “implied shaming” or any other kind of shaming of others who are not uncomfortable. Let’s not subtweet here: you’re talking about WWTH. WWTH is allowed to say that she is uncomfortable, and she is not obligated to silence herself in order to cater to the feelings and experience of some misogynist dude stranger. You want Afro to have a good experience at the expense of WWTH. I don’t agree with that position.
Guilty as charged, sometimes to my own misfortune. My Mum almost murdered me when I picked up a hitchhiker once when I was driving alone. But it turned out okay! I totally DIDN’T get murdered– by the hitchhiker, OR my Mum! 😀
And I’m glad that my dubious assistance was unnecessary, in your case. 🙂 To be honest, I felt more bad for Afro; we (feminists in general, not necessarily specific people in particular) tend to get frustrated and angry about crazy dudes and why can’t they just use a little common sense and introspection and see how stupid they’re being sometimes, and then when one DOES start seeing the light and it’s not a perfect and immediate evolution, we don’t want to deal with it. For human beings in general, at least in my experience, admitting we’re wrong is super difficult. The backfire effect is totally a thing. So, although I may get kicked in the teeth more often than not for doing so, I tend to want to offer people who seem to be on the verge of doing so as much assistance as possible. Every time a dudebro climbs the fence successfully, a fairy gets its wings, or something.
Please refer to the comments policy. I am crazy and it’s unkind to use me as an insult.
Policy: People absolutely ARE welcome to feel however they feel, I agree 100%. And I actually wasn’t speaking of any poster in particular; to my best recollection, several people said they were uncomfortable, and several others said “I’m going to say this (helpful thing) but not respond any further because you make me uncomfortable.” I haven’t gone back and looked, so maybe it was just one person commenting those thoughts many times, but it seemed to be different individuals to me. Anyway, as I’ve mentioned, I definitely 100% understand the discomfort.
BUT, there is implied shaming there, and saying there isn’t is disingenuous (or, at least, IMO). If I had a friend, and we were at a bar and talking to people, and one dude gave me the creeps and I said so to my friend, there’s definitely an implied “let’s get the heck out of here and/or stop talking to him” message there. If my friend then continued to talk to him at the expense of my comfort, that’d be pretty messed up. So, for those saying they were uncomfortable and they wanted him to stop commenting, it’s pretty thoughtless of others to continue upholding a conversation with him and inciting the act that is causing those people discomfort. Right?
And I don’t want anyone to have a good experience at the expense of anyone else. I’ve explained my reasoning re: not making it MORE difficult in the post I made immediately before this one. My opinion is, if we (feminists, women, insert any group here, really, as the problem is not limited to feminists or women) are serious about wanting misogynists to get a flippin’ clue, it’s not an enormous ask for someone to just ignore the ones that are in progress of doing so if they aren’t being aggressive, offensive, threatening, or insulting. Again, just my opinion, I’m not saying I’m the ruler of all mankind and all must do as I say or anything. Just explaining my viewpoint and the reasons behind it. 🙂
Also, I can’t go back and edit my other comment to remove the offensive term as the timer has expired, but I apologize; you’re absolutely right that I shouldn’t throw around the ‘crazy’ term (or, really, anything similar) so superfluously. I have plenty o’ mental illness in my family line, I really should know better. My sincere apologies. So uh… “poopheaded dudes”. 🙂
We’re not all friends here, but I do think it’s pretty messed up to prioritize some incel dude’s comfort over WWTH’s. WWTH is a known regular and, more importantly, a member of a marginalized group, and you’re saying that she should silence herself so that other people can continue to interact with a misogynist because they don’t know how she feels. She didn’t tell anyone to stop interacting with Afro. If anyone stopped interacting with Afro because of WWTH’s feelings, then that was a choice they made without any influence outside of just knowing information that they didn’t previously have.
You’re not only asking that WWTH be silent, but that she be silent so that other people remain ignorant of the important information that she is uncomfortable. You know what makes me uncomfortable? Asking women to be silent so that a man’s experience isn’t degraded. The degraded experience of the woman in question is apparently not important or something? At least not worth speaking up about?
It is, indeed, an enormous ask to expect women to remain silent when they are uncomfortable. It’s a misogynist expectation that society imposes on women, and that expectation is so pervasive and omnipresent that maybe it seems like a minor imposition to ask a woman to just go along with that and keep herself inconspicuous and inoffensive. But it is not minor. It’s an enormous imposition. I would ask you to re-examine this position of yours.
Again, my post was not directed specifically at any one individual, but you’re only using her, so I will address your concerns as stated.
I don’t believe Afro coming and being told he is wrong by many different posters is “comfortable” to him, nor should it be. He made problematic statements in the past, and (though he stated he was trying to improve) still was making a problematic “no true Scotsman” argument and was being read the riot act appropriately. Good. Grand. Helpful, yes. Honest, yes. Comfortable for him, probably not. I never suggested that he be made comfortable in his path to enlightenment; rather, I ask he not be shoved off of it.
I am not suggesting that women remain silent when they are uncomfortable due to someone’s specific actions against them, for example. If Afro was PM’ing her insults and noxiousness while putting on a brave puppy face in comments here, that would be disgusting and of course everyone should know, for example. However, as WWTH is a member of a marginalized group as you say, it’s important that non-marginalized humans understand the difficulties of that marginalized group, as typically marginalized groups are heavily minority groups. No non-marginalized person is going to understand the difficulties of a marginalized person unless they are told, and they are not going to stick up for that marginalized person if they are not educated in how to do so.
It’s gross and icky to deal with sometimes, but we cannot shove away potential future allies when they’re trying to learn, or we end up with Donald Trump as president. These ‘incel’ guys, for example, are in a massive echo chamber full of problematic attitudes, and the fact that he broke free of that echo chamber, if what he’s saying is authentic and truthful, is actually really awesome. We can all stay in sterile bubbles without even the presence of a hopefully-improving former dudebro to throw off our peace, but that hasn’t turned out super well so far, unfortunately. So I don’t believe it really is an enormous ask to ignore the subject of your discomfort when no one is actually being harmed or currently even under threat of being harmed. I’m not saying she (or any other uncomfortable parties) need to interact with someone they don’t like. I’m saying, ignore it when there’s no harm from doing so, absolutely speak up if you (or anyone else) are being harmed or under threat of being harmed.
Again, not queen of the world, just expressing my personal opinions and explanations for them. 🙂 Feel free to ignore me (heh!) and do whatever makes you happy!
@Shiya
I think it’s interesting that you object to people here telling Afroaway00 that they don’t want him here, something I did, and then you follow it up with… almost the exact same advice I gave him. Okay.
It’s not that we don’t want Afroaway00 to grow and develop. We just don’t want him working that development out on us.
I haven’t found a large number of people saying they were uncomfortable with Afro. I found WWTH and … ??? Who else was saying it? I am not going to hide criticism of WWTH in a “some people said” construction. You may not be intending to criticize WWTH alone, but you are criticizing her, so let’s use her name.
Two things:
First, you’re implying that women should remain silent when the problematic behavior is not specifically targeted toward them as individuals. Since WWTH was not being targeted, she should be quiet about her discomfort? Really? You’re saying nobody should say anything until/unless they are singled out? I can think of a thousand ways that works in the interests of abusive people.
Secondly:
WWTH is suffering harm if she is being made uncomfortable by someone else’s behavior. That’s what uncomfortable means. It means you’re sitting on a tack, either literally or psychologically. Why should WWTH have to sit on a tack and be silent and meek about that? Seriously, I’m asking what the benefit is accrued from WWTH’s silence, and why that benefit outweighs the harm she asserts that she is suffering. Beware: as you may have guessed, I am super-skeptical of any argument that can be construed as “men’s feelings and education and edification and advancement are more important than women’s.” So please don’t try to bring one of those to bear.
This is plain concern trolling. I don’t think you’re a troll, so don’t do it.
I’m going to say this plainly: Afro’s education and advancement as a human being is his own job to undertake, and WWTH should not have to sit silent on tacks in order to facilitate that for him.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I never said or meant to imply that your advice was poor! What I mean to say is ideally, feminists should try to welcome people if their intentions seem good until they are proven otherwise. But that advice was because realistically, that has not happened in this case, SO he should probably follow that advice so he continues to improve regardless of the state of his welcome at the WHTM comment section. 🙂 Sorry for seeming to be doubling back, there.
And it just feels like a NIMBY argument. “Yeah, I want you to improve, and I can generally accept that it would be good for society if you did. *I* just don’t want to deal with it, or even have to scroll past another individual dealing with it.” That kind of attitude is similar (though obviously WAY not as severe in scope!) to “pro-life” people who want babies to be born, but DON’T want their tax dollars going to their birth or care or to even have to look at those babies or acknowledge their existence.
I don’t think “improvement” of afroaway here was likely, considering how he was posting (defending his misogyny), and what he had posted before was clearly misogynist. Looked to me like, no matter how much we tried to educate and encourage (and there was quite a bit of that at first), he didn’t want to learn or grow.
Also, why bring abortion rights into the discussion… it has no bearing with what we were talking about.
Now you’re here, defending his right to post here, after he himself decided that he should no longer post. He was banned at his own request.
Perhaps you should reconsider your position in light of that. He chose, of his own free will, to remove his self-admitted misogynistic-posting reddit account and be banned here. He himself seemed to realize it wasn’t helpful for him to post here, why do you think that was? In what ways might you be similar to him?
@Shiya
Why? Disingenuously pretending to be ‘just asking questions’ is a very common tactic, and to date no one who has come here from any of the websites David covers has ever once actually done so in good faith. Because we recognize this pattern, people who have been engaging these shitheads for a while have learned their tells, the biggest of which is coming here from the manurosphere.
Yep, that would be pretty messed up. But the behavior you’re calling out right now is analogous to you telling your friend you’re uncomfortable. In your scenario, it’s the friend continuing to talk despite you feeling uncomfortable that’s messed up. Not you “shaming” your friend by sharing that you feel uncomfortable.
Okay, I’m gonna go back and hunt down the other uncomfortable folks…
Viscaria, as she/he has responded here, also gave the advice to go elsewhere and stop commenting on WHTM.
Even WWTH quotes Viscaria as also being uncomfortable…
And it may actually have just been them posting their discomfort multiple times. I took that, plus Violet’s earlier quoted “Several people have now asked you to stop commenting because they are not okay with you being here, and that means you ought to stop commenting.” bit, and took that to mean more than two. And perhaps there are, and I missed them! So, it appears I did just call out two folks, though those two folks’ discomfort did seem to be closing down the conversation with Afro from all sides.
And you’ll notice, I *did* use her name, just wanted to be specific that I wasn’t intending to call her (or Viscaria) out specifically, although that’s now been done. I don’t want to shame anyone, as the attitude they’re expressing is 1) completely understandable, and 2) not limited to them, as it’s a relatively common one among feminists in general.
And regarding your first point, I’ll quote myself:
“I’m saying, ignore it when there’s no harm from doing so, absolutely speak up if you (or anyone else) are being harmed or under threat of being harmed.”
I didn’t go back and add that (or anyone else) just now; if ANYONE is being actively harmed by someone’s statements, then yes, they should be called out. For example, my own earlier inappropriate use of the ‘crazy’ term; someone would not have to actually have a mental illness to have excellent reason to point out my use of the term as being problematic.
I was uncomfortable earlier getting a cavity filled. Sometimes, one ignores a certain degree of uncomfortableness when the intention of the one making you uncomfortable is not to do so, AND when the benefit of being uncomfortable is potentially good. WWTH was not uncomfortable due to any action taken against her specifically, and it seems that Afro was at least clumsily attempting to be repentant for the problematic statements he had made earlier about women in general. And the potentially permanent benefit of someone crossing enemy lines to be a decent human being versus the transient negative of having to scroll past the comment of someone you find distasteful was something I believed to be self-evident, though I guess this is proving me wrong. There’s a whole cost/benefit analysis to be done there that I’m not sure how to initially approach, I apologize for my ignorance.
And, it’s not concern trolling, as I’m doing it quite authentically. The echo chamber dudebro groups are likely a large reason why someone like Donald Trump was able to win the recent election. We can ignore the fire in our wastebasket if we’d like, but it won’t go away, and if left unattended it could consume the whole house. I genuinely feel that way. I was always hopeful about ignorance and racism going away with the previous generations, but I’m running into more and more faux-‘marginalized’ dudebro millenials that are making me no longer believe that. I’m not sure how to conquer that issue, but I imagine every voice removed from the echo chamber can only help. Again, I genuinely feel this way, and I’m similarly terrified of the implications for the country at large and EVERY marginalized group in particular if Donald Trump (or the next Donald Trump, or the IDEAS of Donald Trump) continue to remain a force in our country.
And saying “just educate yourself if you’re so authentic!” is easier said than done. There’s a reason we have an education system in our country; a concept is MUCH easier to grasp and retain if it’s explained by someone who already understands it. And yeah, none of us are paid even a teacher’s unfairly meager salary to educate dudebros. But it doesn’t eliminate the fact that educating yourself with no one to ask questions to or help clarify a non-obvious problem in logic is super tricky, and potentially even impossible. For example, he may potentially have labored for months or years, or even given up entirely, with his “but not ALL incels!” argument, but it could potentially be rectified by someone saying, “no true Scotsman bro, that group has problems and you’re not helping by trying to justify them rather than confront them.”
By the way, I just want to point out that I genuinely appreciate this conversation and discussion of ideas. I understand we’re on opposing sides of this particular argument, though I guarantee we’re typically on the same side in most others just by our shared presence here on WHTM. 🙂 And I know that we’re both simply striving for a better world for everyone to live in, so… I just wanted to say that. Uh. Kumbaya, or whatever? I know I probably seem disgustingly sappy, but I’m really being authentic when I say that. I don’t want you to think I don’t take your argument from a place of absolute good faith and concern for your fellow WHTM folks.
Authentic concern trolling is STILL concern trolling.
Posts taking hundreds of words to say “No, I’m not concern trolling, I’m being authentic”, are still concern trolling.
Randomly adding topics like abortion rights, dental work, Donald Trump, no true scotsman, and education of misogynists to seem more genuine? No. You are not taking our “argument” from a place of good faith.
This man afroaway00, taken at face value, WAS convinced to leave at least one part of the manosphere, despite the purported “poor treatment” by commenters here. You might consider that as you think about arguing, yet again, that we should be nicer to known misogynists.
What is this even.
If some woman came into my home, told me she was a dentist, even showed me her credentials, and started working on my teeth while I’m just trying to bing watch some Netflix, that would be inappropriate. As is an incel coming in here, using us as a stick to beat himself up with, and insisting #notallincels.
JS: I absolutely agree that abortion rights has nothing to do with this conversation. I was using the generally accepted problematic attitude of many “pro-life” individuals as a mirror for a similar attitude I saw here, as an analogy to help explain my position on why I think that attitude is wrong when expressed about recovering misogynists. If you don’t think it’s valid, that’s absolutely fine; analogies aren’t for everyone. 🙂
Yes, absolutely, I am. It’s not really about Afro in particular (though he is the current example), but rather an attitude that I’m seeing more often that (in my opinion) won’t do feminists any favors if the world keeps turning the way it seems to be. As a feminist, and a woman, I feel like that would be a travesty. He removed himself because he was told in no uncertain terms by many people that he should and that he would be ignored even if he did not, as his previously expressed misogynistic viewpoints were unacceptable enough to make people uncomfortable with his presence. Am I now also unwelcome, for challenging the idea that perhaps ignoring him if he’s not being horrible is a better path for the greater good of his (and similar people’s) migration to “the light side”?
@Dalillama: That’s an incredibly valid point; exhaustion with those kinds of people is super common. This is why I’m definitely NOT saying that people should have to engage with those people if they don’t want to. But “NO ONE from those groups has ever been enlightened!” is painting an entire group with a very broad brush, when folks should be taken as individuals. He was defending incels, yes, but he wasn’t defending problematic statements from them, but rather saying, “Well, THAT guy (who says terrible things about women) isn’t really part of my group.” Which yeah, still problematic, but isn’t him defending misogyny, but rather, NOT confronting misogyny. Yeah, absolutely, he should do the latter, but I think that’s potentially ignorance and defensiveness rather than ill will. And asking questions may be a sign of being a butthead in disguise, but it’s also how people learn, thus the constant 20 questions from toddlers. It’s unfortunate that a person authentically learning and someone only pretending could potentially present so similarly, but there you are.
(Potential trigger warning for mentions of IRL physical harm!)
@kupo: I partially agree with your point, but 1) I disagree that there is no shaming, and 2) a potential creeper in real life who could physically harm me directly and permanently in seconds is not directly comparable to a potential internet creeper. Thus, my argument is that internet people should be given slightly more leniency, as Afro cannot wait outside of the “x” button on my browser and do me physical harm when I leave the WHTM comment section. Also, I would not expect someone to leave the BAR because I was uncomfortable/creeped out but not threatened; I would go to a different table and ignore him.
@Shiya
1) Sharing that someone makes you uncomfortable is not shaming. Period.
2) The Internet is part of the real world. This is real. The people are real. The harm done to them is real. I would expect the bartender to 86 someone if they’re making other guests uncomfortable.