By David Futrelle
Today’s MGTOW of the Day, fresh from the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, has a rather unique perspective on the relative values of men and women. As he sees it, women are vastly inferior creatures whose only value stems from the fact that they can er, carry seed.
Men, by contrast, are … buses.
I’m not sure MGTOWs have quite mastered the fine art of the metaphor yet.
@Alan, JS
The most infrequent bus service I can recall was one in Shropshire, which ran only on Bank Holidays, but that doesn’t really count because it was for tourists. You could get across the Long Mynd and into the Stiperstones area, but getting back was an issue.
Shropshire is the final frontier for public transport. I used to just sack it off and walk to Much Wenlock from where I lived, a distance of 8 miles each way. Church Stretton was slightly closer, only 7 miles, but you had to go across some pretty high hills and it was a ballache with the shopping.
I appreciate living in a city now; corner shops seem new, fresh and magical.
@Afro, Violet
Violet, you expanded on exactly what I was thinking. I’m happy to help anyone who truly wants to change and broaden their world view. As you say, itd be a fucking awful world if that wasn’t true.
Afro, I was ignorant in many ways when I was younger and if no one had tried to help and inform me, who knows if I’d have changed. As a teenager, my insecurities made me incredibly selfish and self-centered. I did nothing out of malice, but I hurt many people I was friends with out of thoughtlessness and insensitivity. I was almost totally lacking any amount of self awareness. Everyone loved to party with me, I was loud, fun, witty, entertaining and amusing but I was a pretty shitty full time friend. If 2 of my best friends from high school,(one of which is now my boyfriend of 8+1/2 years)hadn’t made me see those things(and trust and believe it was not easy)I’d be a much shittier person today. I’m an incredibly lazy stoner, so laziness is not an excuse. If I can change, you can too. It is difficult but the rewards of being a decent human being and a truly good friend(not just a fun but difficult one)are well worth it. It makes you and everyone around you happier and life is just more pleasant. I may sound trite, but I mean every word.
That eye area / jawline angle analysis is fascinating – it’s like reading the notes from some strange Victorian anthropologist who went to Papua New Guinea to collect data so he could confirm his hypothesis about how some specific skull measurement is the sole arbiter of civilized Man. I’d be willing to bet that somewhere there is someone with calipers and a tape measure, using these theories to create an objective measure of attractiveness, with an “Incel Threshold” below which you will never, ever get to have sex.
I wonder how much luck this chap has with the ladies?
@JS, no problem! 🙂
@Afroaway00, I am going to break my self-imposed rule of not reading your stuff or engaging with you for a sec.
Here’s my problem with what you’re doing here: You have made a frequent habit of doing harm to women in order to self-flagellate by posting on r/incels. You seem to think that it’s less misogynistic because you don’t necessarily believe all of the things you say about women. I’m here to tell you that being willing to throw women under the bus so that you can indulge your self-hatred is actually deeply misogynistic.
Now, if you want to learn better coping skills, I’m completely in favour of that. If you can find a good depression forum where you can examine and work on your self-hate and how you express it, that is marvelous. I hope you can become a better and happier person.
But you can’t do that here. You can’t come here, in amongst the people that you have been harming, and use us to process your feelings about the actions you’ve taken. That’s just another way you’re using women (and the men who frequent here) as tools instead of respecting our personhood.
And you can’t just, like, talk to us about whatever. We know how you’ve treated women, and we know that you haven’t yet established any better ways of treating women, so you leave us with the two shit options of 1) tacitly forgiving you by engaging with you like we would anybody else, and 2) being the bad guy by ignoring you or calling you out. That is deeply unfair.
I can’t stop you from posting here, but I would encourage you to instead find a space that has nothing to do with incels or misogyny to work out your demons. I would also encourage you to keep reading, but not participating in, feminist discussion.
@Afro
As if anyone asked, allow me to remix what @KK + Violet have said. I will not be understanding and friendly to you. I will not be nice or expend of myself for your betterment. I’m capable of trying, but it’s not at all worth the effort. They’re willing to put up with you if you stop hanging out on the incel sub. Their prerogative, but too lenient for my tastes, especially since you can’t post there now anyway. No, I will give a fuck about anything you say as soon as you stop calling yourself incel. As soon as you no longer willfully associate yourself with a misogynist hate group, I’ll maybe believe you’re not a hateful, misogynist, card carrying member. Cos, until then, you’re the new misogyny to be tracked and mocked til everyone gets bored and bans you
@viscaria
Thank you for your kind words upthread (I went to bed early). I don’t engage in that kind of self criticism as much as I used to. There’s a certain point where you’re looking in the mirror and throw up your hands cause you’re just too old and fat and busy to stare for hours in the mirror. hahaha
Seems like r/incels has gone public again so it seems only fair to post my comment-history so anyone who wants to can see for themselves what I’ve done. So here it is: https://www.reddit.com/user/Afroaway00/
That’s all I ever said over on r/incels. I don’t believe what I’ve done is any less misogynistic than people not motivated by self-hatred or whatever. Misogyny is misogyny and being self-aware only makes things worse. But that that comment-history represents the full extent to which I’ve harmed women. Coming here isn’t just meant as a way to process my feelings and what I’ve been doing. By participating in feminist discussion, like I’ve done elsewhere and in the past, I hope to be a better person online than I have been for the past few months. I’d like to do that here but like I said, I’ve got no special right to be here. This is not “my” place. And I don’t think of anyone as a bad guy for calling me out or ignoring me.
I hope my comments here can show that I’ve come here in good faith and with a genuine interest in feminist discussion. I’d like to keep posting here but if the comments I made over on r/incels makes people uncomfortable than I’m okay with leaving.
@Afro
I’ll reiterate what I said – if you are willing to learn, that’s great.
But being willing to learn means listening to what people are saying. It doesn’t mean explaining how incels are not as bad as all that, or posting your comment history to prove you never said anything misogynist. What you said doesn’t actually matter. What matters is that, out of all the possible forums you could have picked, that’s the one you chose to post on. This is no ordinary forum, it is one where not too long ago, people referred to Elliot Rodger as a saint*. And something about that spoke to you.
I’m not interested in you self justifying, or in hearing about how we misunderstand incels and they’re not THAT bad, or whatever else. If you are genuine about wanting to change, then the one thing you need to do, right now, is shut up and listen.
If you have something to add that you think is valuable, please do add it. In short form; with no self-justification; and no long tangents about what an awful human being you are. As Viscaria said, we are not here to make you feel better about yourself. Why should we make it easy and comfortable for you to post here?
Like I said the onus is on YOU to prove you want to change. By listening, by being respectful, by accepting some people won’t like you. And by remembering that you are on probation**.
*If you try and say even one word indicating we should even slightly empathise with Elliot Rodger, you will feel my full wrath.
**If you argue about this post, try and minimise what I said, or try and justify even one more time that you are not THAT bad and we all should accept you, then your probation is over, you’re fired, and I’m going to stop engaging with you.
Hello.
Well, quite the same as Fishy Goat.
DThrillard, if you have a full set of male genitalia, you have testicles. If they are functionnal, you also carry seed. And that has absolutely nothing with your ability of thinking, reasoning, and the like, and neither with your behavior. However, if i was trying to mimic your way of thinking and scientific blabling, i would tell you that you are an asshole, that you carry seed, and that the seed you carry are quite close of your asshole. Coincidence ? I think not. (Can i have my diploma in socio-biology now ?)
And as would say Weird Al, another one rides the bus.
Have a nice day.
That’s about what I was going to say.
I’d just like to point out that when Afro arrived here, he said he was here for attention. Katie and Violet, I appreciate your good intentions. You’re both kinder than I could ever be. But I’m afraid all he’s done here is manipulate you into giving you time and attention and effort. Two days ago he was defending his presence in r/incels as not necessarily making him a misogynist. Now he’s suddenly claiming he wants to change and participate here even after I’ve stated his performance as just a regular old commenter here creeped me out and made me uncomfortable. I’m not buying that he’s sincere at all. I only buy that he considered himself progressive and feminist all along because men who identify as those things have a history of turning out to be predatory (Hugo Schywzer, Jian Giomeshi, James Deen etc. not spellchecking the names cause I’m lazy) and just using those labels to get accolades and attention from progressive women.
Both Viscaria and I have stated that it makes us uncomfortable for you to try and participate here as a member of the community. Instead of making us or other commenters say that again and like Viscaria said, make ourselves the bad guys, you should have already said you’re just going to read and try to learn that way.
If you have any interest at all in being an ally to women and changing your ways, the first thing you need to do is learn to respect women’s boundaries. I already linked to Schrodinger’s Rapist in the other thread. Go read it.
You continue to post here, I will continue to treat you as a troll.
I fully agree with this and that probably makes responding to it seem a little weird, but all I want to say in response is that I’m not trying to justify or convince anyone that incels aren’t that bad. Just like how I never said anything about wanting any of you to make it easy or comfortable for me to post here. I merely asked if it was okay. People asked about the incel thing in this thread and I responded. I get that. I get why some people might think “why the hell do you think you can just start posting here?”. Completely understandable. So I tried to explain. Nobody needs to agree with that explanation. If it isn’t sufficient for you it isn’t sufficient.
As long as people are okay with it I’d like to keep posting here. That’s all. I have no expectations about how people should respond to me. I accept everything, from ignoring me to mocking me.
I hope you’ll agree that this isn’t me arguing anything. Just clarifying.
@ afroaway
Im a white woman raised in a fundy christian household. Some of my family members were in a cult! I was taught to be racist, homophobic, misogynistic, transphobic, and judgmental towards people with affliction (bc god punished them). I was raised to be a poor-hating republican. I was taught to hate myself and my sinful womanly body.
I used to think and say some awful racist shit as a teenager – I was trying to fit in and be all edgy and I used to be “cool girl”. It was just terrible. I still think about it. 25 years later it still stains me. It makes me hate my childhood, the culture I was raised, the adults that helped twist my mind, and myself.
But I don’t go into african-american spaces and expect them to coddle my guilt and pat my bottom.
As I aged I realized my childhood and early adulthood was all horrible, hatefilled bullshit. I have changed and am still changing. But what made me change significantly was sitting down, shutting up, and opening my eyes and ears. I also didn’t go around sayin, “NOT ALL CHRISTIANS!” (not all incels!!)
You should stick around. And you should open your eyes and think VERY CAREFULLY before you post. Do not try to get redemption here. Do not try to use us to make you feel better.
But do hang out and learn some good shit. I did. I have learned so much here. You can too.
@afro, no, thank you, I have no desire to read ANYTHING posted by you to r/incels or r/thebluepill. There has never been a time when I enjoyed reading comments on either of those reddits. I’ve said it before, and will say it again. The small amount of “good and/or acceptable” posted on those two reddits is FAR, FAR outweighed by the huge amount of “terrible”.
Learn to understand that being “incel” or a “blue piller” does not improve your chances for a happy life (sexual or otherwise).
ETA important historical note:Afroaway been mentioned in a main post here before, and made a point of mentioning it on reddit.
@Afro
OK – I said I was willing to engage, and I am.
However, you said: “As long as people are okay with it I’d like to keep posting here,” and the thing is, it looks like people are not okay with it. You are making other people uncomfortable. And that is more important to me than talking to you.
So I’ve changed my mind. Several people have now asked you to stop commenting because they are not okay with you being here, and that means you ought to stop commenting.
I’m going to stop engaging with you now.
@Afro,
Having gotten myself into a more minor version of the situation you’re currently in when I first started posting here, let me offer you some friendly advice:
Drop.
It.
Stop posting anything at all about your time at r/incel, your reasons for posting here, or why you’re replying to someone’s post about you.
If you’re serious about trying to become a productive member of this community, doing any of that is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. Reread what Viscaria and WWTH have said to you and try to understand it all from their perspective (you won’t be able to fully know what it’s like to be them, but you can get to some intellectual approximation that can be useful), and then reread your response.
Whether you intend to or not, your actions make you look a lot like the person they see.
So: change.
Or don’t.
Up to you.
@afro
if you really truly are here in good faith (WWTH’s earlier post does damn you quite effectively) then I think you should just lurk awhile. Think about things. I won’t be replying to you further because it feeds your need for attention. But I DO wish you luck. I hope that you won’t leave, but will sit back and learn.
There was a guy I went on one date with. He was nice and we got along well, and we had a lot in common. But something was off. He insisted on opening the door for me even though I reached it first. He tried to pay for me when I had arranged before hand that we each pay our own way. There was something a little off about the conversation. I didn’t say anything to him, but I was starting to suspect he was a misogynist. I was willing to give him one more chance because we got along well and maybe he was just nervous. And there was nothing really overtly misogynistic in the conversation. Then he asks me to come over to his place for wine a couple nights later. I let him know I have class that night (I’m working 40 hrs plus taking 10 credits at this point, so after class I’ll have had a 12+ hour day, which I had explained to him). I don’t mention it, but this is a huge red flag for me, and I’ve decided not to see him again if he pushes back. He does, insisting that I need to unwind after class. I refuse, he gets pissy, and I ignore him because I need to focus on work. Then he drinks the wine himself and sends me a link saying “this is why I’m divorced.” (I see the text after class.) The link was to a YouTube video that was just a commercial from the early 2000’s where a woman convinces a man that they can afford to buy a larger house for themselves and their kids. The video description was a long rant about how women are evil and force men into debt just to ruin them financially, yadda yadda.
The point of my story? I had a feeling he was a misogynist even if I never indicated as much to him. Judging by that link he sent I’m pretty sure he hangs out on reddit, though I’m going to guess red pill rather than incel. I could be wrong, he might not post on reddit at all. But he probably doesn’t think I suspected him of being a secret misogynist after our first date (though he probably knows he’s blown his cover now).
TL;DR: if you surround yourself with misogyny, it bleeds into other parts of your life. People can’t compartmentalize as well as we think we can. IRL people might suspect you but just not say anything.
?????
(Also, hi, I should be at work right now, but I have frequent ear infections, and this one is really bad and I keep wobbling back and forth because it’s fucking with my equilibrium and I’m in pain and fluid is leaking from my ear and it’s so fucking gross and I’m sorry. I’m just waiting for noon so I can order some lunch to be delivered [the chinese food place I wanna order from is closed until 11], and I’m trying to keep myself occupied because my roommates are out of town for the next five days, and so I’ve been watching anime on Crunchyroll. I recommend Witch Craft Works. It’s pretty good.)
Also, relevant:
Well, I clicked on Afroaway’s link, and on the second page, it loaded up as u/undefined, and now that’s what comes up when one clicks the link now.
I don’t know anything about Reddit. Does this mean he deleted his account?
Because I saw this:
Afroaway00
•
3d
just have one of us be the one to make all the big decisions in your life and we’ll have you happy and partying it up with all the chads in no time. i feel like some of you girls don’t know what having a vagina can really do for you if you use it right. luckily for you, we’re blackpilled enough to know better.
This doesn’t sound misogynistic at all. Oh, no.*
*Sarcasm
ETA: Damn, PI, I hope you feel better soon! Sending warm thoughts to you.
Kupo,
I think men just don’t realize how good a lot of women are at spotting red flags. We start getting street harassment when we first start going through puberty. If not sooner. We’re know damn well that it’s incredibly common for women to be sexually assaulted. We also know damn well that if we weren’t perfectly careful, people will blame us if it happens to us. We have every reason to develop an instinct for sniffing out possible predators. We don’t have the luxury of moving through the world oblivious the way men do.
One of my recent stories of being right about that instinct doesn’t even involve dating. About a year ago I worked with this guy. He always gave me the creeps. The only thing inappropriate thing he ever did to me was mansplain the job to me and a female coworker one time. But something about him was off. I just knew it. Then he got fired after sending an email to one of the female managers telling her that he thinks management is doing everything wrong. Most of the managers there are men, but he sent it to the woman. Of course. Since his meltdown was kind of weird, some of the women there decided to look him up. It turns out he has a criminal record. He had molested a girl in his family. When that bit of gossip reached my ears, I was not at all surprised. I was horrified though. Not least because as of the time of his firing, his girlfriend was pregnant.
You can fool all women some of the time and some women all the time. But you can’t fool all the women all of the time.
@Paradoxy
I am completely sympathetic on the ear infection. I used to get them at least twice a year. Now my ears seem to have figured out how to drain well enough to avoid infections, but they still let me experience the pain levels of one whenever I fly.
Also that screencap is 1000% truth.
Huh. I’ve only been using my vagina to store spare change and breath mints and to make prank phone calls. I guess I really haven’t been putting my vagina to its best use. Silly me.
What does u/undefined mean?
@PeeVee that link to afro’s reddit comment history now comes up “This user has deleted their account.”
u/undefined probably means you tried to load one of his comments just after he deleted the account.