The “literal only value” of women “is that they can carry seed,” MGTOW of the Day explains

@ fran

Hmm, tried various combinations. No joy.

Would it be ok to email you the post via David or something and you can see if you can stick it up there under my name? No worries if you’d prefer not to.

@Sir Alan

All right, I’ll check it out! Thank you very much.

Okay. I’ll try to not repeat what others have already addressed to much but I’ve just returned from going out for drinks so I can’t promise that this reply will be my best work.

but some of you folks are essentially shaming OTHER people/women for wanting to help him. He may be doing it clumsily, but Afro is asking to be corrected.

I don’t know how much you were talking about me, but I have to assume I’m partially who you are referring too here.

I did not actually shame anyone. I say quite often that people are free to attempt to patiently educate anyone they want to try and educate. I was stating my own boundaries. I was not saying that people have to set their boundaries at the same place that mine are. I am very sincere in my belief that Afro was here to seek attention and emotional labor from women, not to try and change. I have every right to say that. I am far from the only woman who has experienced insincere requests for education from men on the internet. This post explains in a more articulate fashion than I can muster
http://www.shakesville.com/2015/08/feminism-101-more-helpful-hints-for.html

This is the important part

They want to prove a point about how mean feminists are. These are the dudes who understand that feminist women are tired as all fuck of being asked to educate men on demand and are well aware that they’re likely to elicit contemptuous responses if they do, so they request education in bad faith, recognizable as bad faith to seasoned feminists familiar with this tactic but possibly reading as good faith to casual observers, only to provoke hostile declinations and then crow about how mean feminists are—which was, of course, the whole point of the exercise.

If he’s not being threatening or aggressive or offensive, I don’t see the harm in letting him buzz around. Then again, I am the type to catch flies and spiders in cups and put them outside, so perhaps my tolerance for buzzing is higher than most.

Who is the arbiter of what’s offensive? Maybe he wasn’t offensive to you, but he was offensive to me. I laid out my reasoning for why I found him offensive pretty clearly. I wasn’t just being mean to some poor hapless dude for the sake of it. He stated clearly in his first couple of posts that he was seeking attention and then proceeded to give his unasked for perspective as an incel and made everything all about him. He claimed he wasn’t a misogynist just because he’s an incel even though his community is full of some of the most horrifying misogyny I’ve ever seen (and I’m saying that as a big horror movie fan) and then came to another thread and acted like none of that ever happened. Can you not see how skeezy and boundary violating that is?

Also, flies and spiders don’t have ill intent. They are just doing what they have to do to survive. In fact, I don’t even put spiders outside. I let them stay and eat the other bugs that come in the house. I like spiders. I don’t like misogynists.

BUT, there is implied shaming there, and saying there isn’t is disingenuous (or, at least, IMO). If I had a friend, and we were at a bar and talking to people, and one dude gave me the creeps and I said so to my friend, there’s definitely an implied “let’s get the heck out of here and/or stop talking to him” message there. If my friend then continued to talk to him at the expense of my comfort, that’d be pretty messed up. So, for those saying they were uncomfortable and they wanted him to stop commenting, it’s pretty thoughtless of others to continue upholding a conversation with him and inciting the act that is causing those people discomfort. Right?

It’s not necessarily messed up to talk to someone your friend gets a bad vibe off of, but what I’m wondering is how is this space so different from a bar? If someone I trust gets the creeps from someone, I actually appreciate them pointing it out. My meat space friends, the regulars an myself were not born yesterday and if we find someone offensive or creepy there’s probably a reason. All the same, I respect everyone’s right to make their own judgement and never said otherwise. Even though my name says chief, I’m not actually one!

I’m feeling like these posts are going to get too tl’dr so I’ll hit post and reply to the rest in a minute.

Axe,

I can’t speak for anyone but me, but when I try to figure out whether a troll is a sock, I do it for a reason. Even if I’m wrong, it highlights that the troll is not saying anything original or interesting. If they are so easily mistaken for an already banned troll, they are told that they are not dropping the super awesome truth bombs they think they are.

I only guess based on writing style. I don’t do off site sleuthing much. But I get why others might. Trolls from 4 and 8 chan are fairly open about posing as women, people of color or LGBT people. I can understand why someone might want to make sure someone with a concern troll vibe is a real person and not a fake not your shield persona.

@ WWTH:

Well said. Your post reminded me of something I read this morning:

http://resakaye.tumblr.com/post/161896819673/here-is-something-i-think-people-dont-understand

we – and by this i mean ‘people targeted by nazis’, but mostly jews, because i am a jew and that’s where my experience lies – we did not want to end up in a scenario where the highlight of our day could be some guy getting punched. in fact, that’s kind of ghoulish.

like, ok. i am pretty much the worst kind of bleeding-heart, dyed-in-the-wool pacifist you will ever meet, when circumstances allow me to be. i don’t, personally, want to kill nazis; i just want nazis to stop being nazis. ideally, the world would work like it did in my 10-year-old fantasies, where i could walk up to a nazi and be like “jews are people,” and he would be like “holy shit!!! mind blown” and stop being a nazi and we’d sit down and have a deep philosophical discussion.

but real nazis have this unfortunate, terrifying habit of continuing to be nazis. when you hit them with intellectual debate, or reason, or “tolerance”, or “just giving them a chance”, or “compromise”, or any of that shit. they continue to be nazis, which means they still want to wipe out me and my people, and many other swathes of people as well.

which is why i understand people who want to kill nazis. or, in a milder variation, punch them.

i wish they would stop being nazis but they wish i would die. when you, historically, adhere to an ideology that advocates mass murder past the point of any nonviolent resistance, you have forfeited your right to a fair debate. you have forfeited your right to any response but self-defense that is as violent as whatever you make necessary.

nazis forfeited their right to nice counter-tactics long ago, and jews know this.

there’s another reason, too, why i whooped at that video. not because someone was getting hurt – don’t be dense. as i said, that’s ghoulish. we did not want to end up with our livelihood as a people so threatened that violent self-defense makes us cheer. can you think about that for a second? can you think about the kind of corner we’re backed into, here? it’s not a natural state of being. it’s a place where most people, as far as we can tell, truly do not give a shit if we live or die, because they’re talking about “tolerating” people whose ideology involves straight-up killing us. and so if we see somebody punch a nazi, it’s evidence: that person in the black mask, they’re on my side.

there is one person who recognizes the nazi as a mortal threat, which means they recognize that jews are people. that people of color are people. that any of the groups threatened by nazis deserve to have their fear recognized.

and every time you, a moderate liberal, a white goy, wring your hands about a nazi getting punched, about violent tactics, about fighting hate with hate, you push us further and further into the corner where we have to cheer at that. it’s sheer relief, at somebody recognizing the terror enough to punch back.

so no, we weren’t born bloodthirsty, just salivating at the chance to kick a nazi in the balls. we got driven here reluctantly, by history, to a place where violence in our defense can make us weep with gratitude. you drove us here.

Yes, it’s a bit OT, but still… it addresses how it feels to be part of a group that’s targeted with hatred and violence, and how one reacts to this.

@Sir Alan

Sleep well, good sir. I shall do the thing as well.

@Shiya, since apparently you are incapable of keeping your promise and leaving going back to lurking, do you really think that a site devoted to mocking misogyny, misogynists, and other bigots is the best site for a misogynist like Afro to deal with his issues?

WWTH

Re: Be nice or else!

Um yes! It makes sense now. I couldn’t put my finger on it. I couldn’t articulate why that it’s a pathetically weak sauce argument.

No person turns into a horrific bigot because some people were rude on the internet once. Serious fucking victim(the marginalized group) blaming.

@WWTH

Do Trudy or GradientLair sound familiar? It was a blog Aliyah mentioned. Though that was several years ago, before I took a long break from commenting.

@WWTH

I really appreciate you explaining your side with such detail. I know that my habit of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt till they prove me wrong makes me a fool and gullible a lot of the time. I’d still rather try to help someone who asks for help but you bring up a lot of good points that make me believe he really wasn’t acting in good faith no matter what it sounded like to me at the moment.

Can I ask you a question? I promise I won’t be offended however you answer. Do you think people like me who try to change people like him are foolish and naive for doing so or do you believe it’s theoretically possible to change some people minds, you just prefer not to do it yourself because you’ve seen so many people question in bad faith? Or am I even more confused than I think I am and do you believe something else entirely that I have not even vaguely touched upon.

Like I said before, I just feel if Klu Klux Klan members can change(which has happened multiple times)anyone can change. If I’m being naive or there are flaws in my reasoning feel free to point them out. I also hope you had a lovely night out having drinks

Relevant: http://www.cracked.com/blog/8-a242423oles-who-show-up-every-time-word-feminism-used/

Do you think people like me who try to change people like him are foolish and naive for doing so or do you believe it’s theoretically possible to change some people minds, you just prefer not to do it yourself because you’ve seen so many people question in bad faith?

I don’t think you’re foolish. I do admit to worrying about people that are trusting though! In my experience, the manospherians who come here are not reachable so I have my own boundaries set at maximum thickness and height when I’m here but actually do get that in some contexts people can be reached and changed. I just personally don’t think someone who would post on one of the site that David writes about are typically in that category. I think the good cop/bad cop approach is a good troll buster so I don’t have an issue with people being nice and patient with trolls. My only problem is with Shiya and Black Cat and their ilk trying to scold the people who aren’t willing or able to play so nice.