By David Futrelle
The original Nazis were not exactly what you’d call progressive thinkers on the “female question.” As Adolf Hitler saw it, the “world” of the German woman should be largely confined to “her husband, her family, her children, and her home.”
But, like many traditionalists, Hitler and his fellow Nazis tempered their misogyny — or at least tried to make it seem more palatable — with praise for the supposed purity and womanly honor of Aryan women who fit themselves neatly into their restricted roles.
Today’s neo-Nazis, or at least those who’ve come to Nazism through 4chan and the meme wars of the alt-right, have a much darker view of women, one influenced more by the bitter misogyny of “Red Pill” pickup artists and Men Going Their Own Way than by sentimental fantasies of “Kinder, Küche, Kirche.”
Reading posts and comments about women on The Daily Stormer, probably the most popular online hangout of today’s meme-happy neo-Nazis, it’s hard not to be struck by how thoroughly the discussions are permeated by “Red Pill” lingo. References to “alpha males,” “reproductive strategies” and “gina tingles” abound. (And there isn’t really anyone there to challenge the misogyny: As is the case in many manosphere communities, women are banned from commenting and “manginas” are quickly chased off.)
To see this convergence of the manosphere and the neo-Nazi movement in full effect, one need only to take a look at a recent debate, of sorts, on the Daily Stormer BBS on the question: ‘Are women naturally evil and immoral?”
A fellow calling himself jonholiver gets the discussion rolling by asking whether it’s “female nature” or “our degenerate culture that [makes] women act the way they do.”
Mr. Oliver, for his part, finds it “hard … to believe that women are actually evil by nature.” As he sees it, the
distinction is important because if we take the premise that women aren’t naturally evil and are neutral or virtuous then the patriarchy serves to guide women into having a family and to create an enviroment where men want to do it as well, while if we go from the premise that women are naturally imoral and sluts than the patriarchy as the purpose of opressing or supressing women’s nature and making them submit to men(i’m not saying opressing women is bad).
Of course you’re not, dude. You’re a freaking Nazi.
The most popular answer amongst Mr. Oliver’s peers? It’s a mixture of both.
“Women are shit by nature,” writes a commenter calling himself lordkekofkeking.
they are only good for making kids, cooking and cleaning. In a traditional society, women understood their place because men put them in their place and they would go against popular culture by doing otherwise.
Now, in this Kali Yuga, women are told they can be whores, they get away with it financially and legally and even worse males in their society have been femenized by constant (((brainwashing))).
As BillyRayJenkns sees it,
Women are led into evil and immorality by a lack of strong authority figures, If we stoned and staked them today, this would all end
SilverDawn makes the same repugnant argument in slightly more polite language:
They are a herd animal. If they see the herd walk one way they will follow it doesn’t matter what it is. The desire to be part of the herd out weighs any logical thinking.
Like all good herds they need fences/boundaries. And good stockmanship.
Cmartel offers an argument I’ve run across again and again on the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.
Females are not evil but they are part of nature which can often be cruel.
A woman is like a dog, a tiger or a tree, neither good or bad. A tiger might kill you but it’s just what tiger’s do, the tiger is not good or evil.
We’re often fooled by women because they can mimic understanding and regurgitate facts without understanding anything.
They themselves are unaware of this it seems, they think they understand but they only feel whatever they feel according to instinct.
If a man seems confident, has social standing, wealth, they feel secure and are drawn to him for reasons they cannot explain. Doesn’t really matter if the man is objectively good or bad.
Women are only here to reward the winners and punish the losers, just like nature.
Masteracist recites a variation of an old evolutionary psych fairy tale that has proven quite popular amongst the manospherians:
The female reproductive strategy evolved prior to civilization, and it is destructive to civilization.
An individual woman, at the instinctual level is attempting to secure the sperm of the most genetically fit man available, and to maximize the resources available to her. In order to accomplish this she will engage in all manner of socially destructive behavior.
Shit testing, instigating conflict between men and other men and men and the state, stealing men from other women, etc. She’ll vote for and encourage the mass importation of third worlders. These behaviors are a subconscious attempt to maximize the genetics available to her, and to create conflict between men in order to determine which men have superior genetics.
Her desire for resources will cause her to manipulate men sexually and emotionally. These men become demoralized, depressed, jaded and scornful of women. This negatively effects their productive output. She will vote for and encourage the theft of productive (white) men’s resources to be guaranteed to the less productive. Her hindbrain has herself and her (potential) children in mind, but in practice this results in the subsidization of brown babies and baby mammas …
She isn’t evil, she’s just ill equipped to make decisions that effect the health of a civilization, and for that reason she should be oppressed, for her own good and ours.
Only the over-the-top racism distinguishes this comment from the evo-psych-influenced explanations of “female nature” one finds everywhere on manosphere blogs and the MGTOW subreddit. (And of course there are evo-psych obsessed manosphere writers who are every bit as racist as Mr. Masterracist, most notably the grandiloquent racist shitbag Heartiste.)
Tompanz offers a vision of human history that leans heavily on the alleged evils of “kikes.”
Women aren’t evil; they aren’t children; and they aren’t immoral. They are women. They are fundamentally different than men and fill different roles. Kikes used a deep knowledge of human psychology and history to start the time bomb that is feminism. Women are eternal followers, and need strong men to guide them. You cannot build society around the tiny minority (if any exist at all) of women who are capable of leading anything but toddlers. …
“[T]he better things get, the more bored women are. Bored women want to play make believe as men, since times are good and men love women they let them. Then women make things go to shit and men keep then locked up until times are better.” Rinse repeat for 12,500 years.
Remove the overt anti-Semitism and you have an “argument” that will be familiar to any longtime student of the manosphere (and/or reader of this blog).
General_Pinochet offers a somewhat more concise explanation of “female nature,” using a familiar cringey catchphrase popular with Red Pillers and MRAs alike, declaring simply that “[w]omen are controlled by ‘gina tingles.”
Amongst all those commenting in the thread, only one seems to feel much real sympathy for women — albeit “sympathy” of a particularly Hitlarian kind. As agoodgoy88 sees it
Women are the victims of Jews and so are men, but it’s our job as men to protect women and children from monsters like Jews instead of blaming them because we won’t fulfill our guardian role. I’m not saying white men should be blamed, but once we start reasserting our role as patriarchs en masse our women will submit almost instantaneously.
Yeah, I don’t think that’s going to be happening any time soon, buddy. But I do think the convergence of the manosphere and the already heavily male alt-right will continue. Both movements are borne of bitterness and aggrieved entitlement, and today’s neo-Nazis seem to be as angry at empowered women as they are at the mythical elders of Zion who supposedly run the world.
OT:
This seems like the best of the current threads to post this in:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/suspected-congressional-baseball-practice-shooter-171623512.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/shooting-gop-baseball-practice-scalise-shot-120338383.html
Basically a fierce anti-Trump guy opened fire at a GOP baseball practice. Five people wounded as of these postings; House Majority Whip Steve Scalise critically.
This is not the best way to get anti-Trump support here, dude.
>.<
They’ve actually become more hateful than the original Nazis. That’s hard to do.
@Pavlovs House
Much like what Lincoln said, “”Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.”
“I know how to stop these Republicans! Go shoot up a … BASEBALL PRACTICE???” What an utter ass. Very few problems are solved by shooting them.
Time for Republicans to pass some sort of gun control measure, allowing Congresspeople to carry guns at baseball practice. (I hope not really happens…)
The discourse reminds me of the dialog in The Name of the Rose. Brrrrr!
Meanwhile back in the “real” world a moron refers to a female politician as hysterical. As someone pointed out the word is from the Greek meaning uterus which in turn reminded me of the word Virtue from the latin root vir or penis. I swear the memes/virus are written in our software ie language!
@ScarlettAthena
I have had this exact same thought. Have the people who post this kind of crap ever interacted with a woman, on the most basic level? I truly don’t understand the amount of cognitive dissonance that is needed to see any of these points as valid.
@Marshb
Vir is actually Latin for man, not penis. Penis is the same word in Latin as it is in English
@Pavlov’s House
I usually offer this same argument to people who go on and on about “welfare cheats” just living off the system, you know, with their big-screen TVs and their Cadillacs and cell phones, etc.
“If it’s such a great deal and so easy, why don’t YOU do it?” Funnily enough, they never have anything to say when you put it that way. Because they know damn well they’re full of shite.
I do not believe these nazis.
I had to delete everything else I typed about these nazis 3-4 times as it was ugly and you didn’t need to read it.
And these very same bigots will turn around and tell us to hate Muslims because of how they treat women. The problem with that argument is that the bigots don’t really hate how conservative Muslims treat women, they hate that they don’t get to treat us the same way.
The next time someone posts an image on twitter of a Muslim woman buried to her neck about to be stoned, we should point them to BillyRayJenkns.
The shooter has died of his wounds, too.
So, of course on another site, a poster was blaming Berniebros and liberals for this, and I asked him if it were finally time for the US to have a conversation about gun control.
Crickets.
I came here to say toddlers are difficult to lead, but WWTH Ninja’d me on that one.
So instead, I’ll ask what in Katie’s name is Kali Yuga? I mean, I know who Kali is (in Hindu mythology, rather than whatever is going on in the heads of manospherians), but I’m not familiar with the longer term and I’m scared to google. If it’s being used by these characters, there might be a lot of awfulness to plough through before getting to whatever germ of knowledge set them off. Can anyone enlighten me off the top of their head?
@Ludomancer
your comment touched my heart, imagining a little boy sitting on top of his dad’s shoulders, walking next to his mother, in a women’s march. Proudly declaring that women are people in his big boy voice. Aw man I just got all choked up. Know this, that men like you, David Futrelle and the many men that read and post on this blog, well you give us hope. For every man that is utter crap there are men like you. And women aren’t always that great either, just read the posting about Christine Flower’s article regarding the Cosby trial. or look at Judybitch’s blog or Karen Straughn, actually maybe don’t.
@Virgin Mary
Refer to above. This may be a long comment but here go’s. My mom was not a very nice woman, actually she was horrifically abusive. She and my dad got divorced when I was 3. She remarried and had another child, my half sister. She then divorced a second time. She gave me to my dad, which was a blessing and gave my sister to her dad. She then drank and drugged herself to an early death. I looked for my sister for 20 years. Her father did not want her to be found because of my mom/ and mom’s family. 8 years ago I finally found her. We reconnected and I found out that my sister was trans and was now my brother. I was there when he went through his surgeries and was there for him while he recovered.
The sad thing was that he felt the constant compulsion to overcompensate for not being born a male by being a misogynist. He was cruel and hateful and looked down on me. He was a rape apologist and made rape jokes. I lost my virginity to an act of rape when I was 16 (I hardly ever talk about that). I could no longer be in contact with him and so I cut off all ties. My point is, that the world needs more people like you, male or female. If you feel in your heart that you were meant to be a man then don’t let the worst examples of men deter you from fulfilling this. Instead be the wonderful man that you are and show others that there are lots of great men still out there. There is that famous quote “be the change that you want to see in the world” that is attributed to Gandhi but apparently what he actually said was
Yay my block quote worked
@WWTH
“Hilariously, one time a commenter here (I think it was Shaenon) offered troll of yore NWO Slave free room and board but no pay if he wanted to come live at her place and do all the housework.”
That’s awesome. The troll’s response was predictable but still, that’s classic WHTM commenter-awesome.
@Cleon
Dang I didn’t know about that Lincoln quote but want to look it up now.
@dreemr
You know I hadn’t thought of pulling that complainers about alleged “welfare abuse” but that’s a good idea.
@gr8dane
Thanks for that. I do get upset and dissappointed in people so easily. I’ve seen that sort of thing before, the idea of having to overcompensate to prove yourself a man, and it isn’t only trans men who do it. It’s really sad to have to be misogynistic to make yourself feel better. One of the things I feel bad about in transitioning is betraying womanhood and playing for the other side. I guess I’m really non-binary, but I still feel like I need feminine, I need empathy and there is no need for the Toxic Masculine in my life. I’d rather have my ponies and rainbows 🙂
@PeeVee,
A tweet I read quite some time ago (and if I could remember who said it, I’d link to him to give him credit) pointed out the only way to get US conservatives to enact – and enforce – gun control is if all the adult black men applied for concealed carry permits all at the same time. THEN there’d be meaningful gun control here.
Pretty sad if you think about it. A bunch of dead kids at Sandy Hook couldn’t do it, but a bunch of live black men getting guns….
Also, I would prefer Flowers to not give Catholics a worse name by writing rape apologia like this. This really isn’t what Jesus meant by being a good follower, ya know?
Also, I’m one of the peeps that first heard of Cosby because of the old Fat Albert cartoon. I really loved watching that growing up – life in the ghetto minus all the bad parts that everyone else liked to emphasize when discussing the inner cities.
(Never saw the live-action movie, though. Really not a fan of a revival style that makes fun of its targets, or makes it seem like ‘modern’ stuff is soooooooooo much better than the old stuff. YMMV.)
ETA:
I strongly suspect that if I ever tried something like that where I live (rural Indinana), I’d get a reply along the lines of “I have too much dignity to live off of government handouts like that”, or words to that effect.
Sorry about leaving the Cosby stuff in that comment; time ran out on me before I realized my mistake and could cut it out here.
Apologies. 🙁
oh yeah now that I think of I remember another one I saw from a clever commenter in the daily newspaper of a major city in the U.S. South [those comments sections even long before Trump was on the political horizon were filled to the brim with racist invective]
Anyway this one commenter was attacking the hypocrisy of the traditional plaint of the White supremacist to African-American activist, the familiar “Slavery is over….wah wah Get oooooover it…..yer living in the past!”
The answer was something like “ok yeah, you’re right….no sense ‘living in the past’….so when we take down the fucking Confederate statutes and memorials all the hell over the place and rename all these schools and parks from Beaufort Traitorfuck or whatever the hell the name of the local Confedrate is YOU won’t mind cause that was all in the past and we gotta let it go…”
I thought that was awesome.
Redsilk,
Agreed. With all of your post.
David tweeted this a bit ago, a Paul tweet from about a year ago:
Wonder what he thinks now? He was out there, ffs. Shot at by a white man…is now finally the time, being this guy was literally shooting at what he clearly thought was a tyrannical government?
Prolly not. The GOP has proven they survive quite well without their spines.
You live in rural Indiana? What area?
I am a Jewish Person. (Of the middle east kind). I am a US citizen, the US classes me as “white”.
Just to get the particulars out of the way. Nearly forgot – I am not religious. I consider myself an American because the only thing I have ever known is American “culture”.
Which extends to where my relatives came from – Egypt and Israel are western. Many say that these are US, UK, proxy states.
As the saying goes – Khartoum and up is Egypt and Egypt is America.
No one ever informed me of any “secret plot”. I never heard anything from the relatives either. There is some plot?
Jews run the world? Um, aren’t I supposed to have a whole lot more money then?
I’m a Regular American and IMO a rather boring person. Tara says – you may as well be Marsha Fucking Brady! Yep. And so is she. She’s an actual Bohemian too. By race. I’ve been to Prague, this is fascinating to me! There are racists against them too, they are looked as “Gypsies”.
WTF is wrong with people?
We all were standing behind you on line at the liquor store run by an Indian immigrant. Who likes the one Classic Rock radio station and sings along. Might’ve seen you again at the Taco Bell drive through.
We’re just like you.
WE ARE YOU.
@WWTH
Of course they do! After all…they will be the authoritarians. Once it happens, they’ll be the animals more equal than the others. They won the ‘racial lottery’; that makes them just like the authoritarian elite.
Or at least they’ve been tricked into thinking that will be the case.
I’m very disturbed that I feel numb to this kind of extreme misogynistic shit. In fact, all I can think of is “Is there room in my fiction to fit villains with this kind of worldview?” It’s like I can’t accept them as real people.
The Kali Yuga is a Hindu concept meaning “age of discord.” It’s the final age in a cycle of ages and one filled with spiritual degeneration. It’s ruled over by an evil being named Kali (not the goddess but a different being altogether). Basically a time where injustice rules, wise men are denigrated, taxes drive everyone to poverty, and greed rules. In other words, life as it’s always been. I’ve heard of esoteric Nazis using the phrase for a while since some love to appropriate Hindu terminology and concepts.
@Redsilkphoenix
Yeah, I agree there is a strong association in their minds of Whiteness with the “righteousness” of firearms ownership.
re: gun control and African-American firearms ownership…
some of the earliest “gun control” in American history is in fact restrictions on free blacks from serving in state militias (and owning weapons) in the Antebellum period [though those restrictions varied in application and by the mid nineteenth century the military viability of state militias in many places generally had been long eroded anyway]….granted, my specialty in military history is a bit further afield from this but I know the basics and have a grasp on the historiography enough. I think the modern conservative image and historical memory (a collective memory that is *ahistorical*) of firearms ownership in America is associated in their minds with their equally ahistorical notion of the virtuous white manly farmer/frontiersman (who to them can’t be Black). So, yeah, I think what you say is valid.
I’ve always been amazed at the degree to which African-Americans in Mississippi during the worst of the last years of Jim Crow managed to *keep* firearms and ammo. I remember reading John Ditmer’s book Local People (on the Civil Rights movement ca. 1946-1970 in Mississippi) and learning about the outright large scale gunfights in which Civil Rights organizers and workers defended themselves from heavily armed Klan and police. I always wondered about where the Black defenders were getting ammo…sure in many Southern states you could buy small arms ammo in the local hardware store in those days, but part of the White supremacist strategy was to economically isolate any local Blacks who resisted or supported resistance. I always thought that would be great to know more about.
@Gr8Dane: Thanks. I worry that men who hold my views don’t speak up enough. And you’re right that there are women with awful anti-feminist views (Ann Coulter always springs to mind). I didn’t bring it up in my initial comment because I believe that men comprise the vast majority of the sort of people David tracks and mocks. Also, honestly, I didn’t want to seem like I was saying, “Yeah, but there are awful women too!”
And yes, that scene of me in the woman’s right march is one of my foundational memories.That and watching The Bionic Woman!
Another thing,
Just on the news here (Chicago) again –
The horrific high rise building fire in London.
I am shocked and horrified by this, I’m sure I must’ve strolled right by there on a number of occasions. And the other day, from out of the blue I was thinking of some spots in London, and in that area, I am just so horrified by this and I have no words 🙁
Carnaby street. Old Dire Straits songs. Shaftesbury Ave.
OK, this is kind of odd – I just went and looked at maps to see if I’m remembering the right area – and there’s already a WP page about this specific fire –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire
? I find this kind of odd.
We extend our best wishes to our friends in London, what a horrific tragedy.
@Z&T
You shouldn’t. Wiki moves hella fast