By David Futrelle
The original Nazis were not exactly what you’d call progressive thinkers on the “female question.” As Adolf Hitler saw it, the “world” of the German woman should be largely confined to “her husband, her family, her children, and her home.”
But, like many traditionalists, Hitler and his fellow Nazis tempered their misogyny — or at least tried to make it seem more palatable — with praise for the supposed purity and womanly honor of Aryan women who fit themselves neatly into their restricted roles.
Today’s neo-Nazis, or at least those who’ve come to Nazism through 4chan and the meme wars of the alt-right, have a much darker view of women, one influenced more by the bitter misogyny of “Red Pill” pickup artists and Men Going Their Own Way than by sentimental fantasies of “Kinder, Küche, Kirche.”
Reading posts and comments about women on The Daily Stormer, probably the most popular online hangout of today’s meme-happy neo-Nazis, it’s hard not to be struck by how thoroughly the discussions are permeated by “Red Pill” lingo. References to “alpha males,” “reproductive strategies” and “gina tingles” abound. (And there isn’t really anyone there to challenge the misogyny: As is the case in many manosphere communities, women are banned from commenting and “manginas” are quickly chased off.)
To see this convergence of the manosphere and the neo-Nazi movement in full effect, one need only to take a look at a recent debate, of sorts, on the Daily Stormer BBS on the question: ‘Are women naturally evil and immoral?”
A fellow calling himself jonholiver gets the discussion rolling by asking whether it’s “female nature” or “our degenerate culture that [makes] women act the way they do.”
Mr. Oliver, for his part, finds it “hard … to believe that women are actually evil by nature.” As he sees it, the
distinction is important because if we take the premise that women aren’t naturally evil and are neutral or virtuous then the patriarchy serves to guide women into having a family and to create an enviroment where men want to do it as well, while if we go from the premise that women are naturally imoral and sluts than the patriarchy as the purpose of opressing or supressing women’s nature and making them submit to men(i’m not saying opressing women is bad).
Of course you’re not, dude. You’re a freaking Nazi.
The most popular answer amongst Mr. Oliver’s peers? It’s a mixture of both.
“Women are shit by nature,” writes a commenter calling himself lordkekofkeking.
they are only good for making kids, cooking and cleaning. In a traditional society, women understood their place because men put them in their place and they would go against popular culture by doing otherwise.
Now, in this Kali Yuga, women are told they can be whores, they get away with it financially and legally and even worse males in their society have been femenized by constant (((brainwashing))).
As BillyRayJenkns sees it,
Women are led into evil and immorality by a lack of strong authority figures, If we stoned and staked them today, this would all end
SilverDawn makes the same repugnant argument in slightly more polite language:
They are a herd animal. If they see the herd walk one way they will follow it doesn’t matter what it is. The desire to be part of the herd out weighs any logical thinking.
Like all good herds they need fences/boundaries. And good stockmanship.
Cmartel offers an argument I’ve run across again and again on the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.
Females are not evil but they are part of nature which can often be cruel.
A woman is like a dog, a tiger or a tree, neither good or bad. A tiger might kill you but it’s just what tiger’s do, the tiger is not good or evil.
We’re often fooled by women because they can mimic understanding and regurgitate facts without understanding anything.
They themselves are unaware of this it seems, they think they understand but they only feel whatever they feel according to instinct.
If a man seems confident, has social standing, wealth, they feel secure and are drawn to him for reasons they cannot explain. Doesn’t really matter if the man is objectively good or bad.
Women are only here to reward the winners and punish the losers, just like nature.
Masteracist recites a variation of an old evolutionary psych fairy tale that has proven quite popular amongst the manospherians:
The female reproductive strategy evolved prior to civilization, and it is destructive to civilization.
An individual woman, at the instinctual level is attempting to secure the sperm of the most genetically fit man available, and to maximize the resources available to her. In order to accomplish this she will engage in all manner of socially destructive behavior.
Shit testing, instigating conflict between men and other men and men and the state, stealing men from other women, etc. She’ll vote for and encourage the mass importation of third worlders. These behaviors are a subconscious attempt to maximize the genetics available to her, and to create conflict between men in order to determine which men have superior genetics.
Her desire for resources will cause her to manipulate men sexually and emotionally. These men become demoralized, depressed, jaded and scornful of women. This negatively effects their productive output. She will vote for and encourage the theft of productive (white) men’s resources to be guaranteed to the less productive. Her hindbrain has herself and her (potential) children in mind, but in practice this results in the subsidization of brown babies and baby mammas …
She isn’t evil, she’s just ill equipped to make decisions that effect the health of a civilization, and for that reason she should be oppressed, for her own good and ours.
Only the over-the-top racism distinguishes this comment from the evo-psych-influenced explanations of “female nature” one finds everywhere on manosphere blogs and the MGTOW subreddit. (And of course there are evo-psych obsessed manosphere writers who are every bit as racist as Mr. Masterracist, most notably the grandiloquent racist shitbag Heartiste.)
Tompanz offers a vision of human history that leans heavily on the alleged evils of “kikes.”
Women aren’t evil; they aren’t children; and they aren’t immoral. They are women. They are fundamentally different than men and fill different roles. Kikes used a deep knowledge of human psychology and history to start the time bomb that is feminism. Women are eternal followers, and need strong men to guide them. You cannot build society around the tiny minority (if any exist at all) of women who are capable of leading anything but toddlers. …
“[T]he better things get, the more bored women are. Bored women want to play make believe as men, since times are good and men love women they let them. Then women make things go to shit and men keep then locked up until times are better.” Rinse repeat for 12,500 years.
Remove the overt anti-Semitism and you have an “argument” that will be familiar to any longtime student of the manosphere (and/or reader of this blog).
General_Pinochet offers a somewhat more concise explanation of “female nature,” using a familiar cringey catchphrase popular with Red Pillers and MRAs alike, declaring simply that “[w]omen are controlled by ‘gina tingles.”
Amongst all those commenting in the thread, only one seems to feel much real sympathy for women — albeit “sympathy” of a particularly Hitlarian kind. As agoodgoy88 sees it
Women are the victims of Jews and so are men, but it’s our job as men to protect women and children from monsters like Jews instead of blaming them because we won’t fulfill our guardian role. I’m not saying white men should be blamed, but once we start reasserting our role as patriarchs en masse our women will submit almost instantaneously.
Yeah, I don’t think that’s going to be happening any time soon, buddy. But I do think the convergence of the manosphere and the already heavily male alt-right will continue. Both movements are borne of bitterness and aggrieved entitlement, and today’s neo-Nazis seem to be as angry at empowered women as they are at the mythical elders of Zion who supposedly run the world.
I’m a middle-aged man who identifies as a child of 1970s second wave feminism. One of my earliest memories is of riding on my father’s shoulders as he walked beside my mother in a woman’s rights march. I remember briefly holding up one end of a banner and shouting “Women Are People!” in my most serious five-year-old voice.
Until a few years ago, I was complacent. My upbringing, and (let’s face it) my white male privilege, led me to believe that these issues had been settled in my childhood. Sure, there were a few crazies out there, but aren’t there always?
The last few years has been both startling and depressing. I remember my shock at discovering that there were people who believed we should eliminate women’s suffrage.
Thank you for continuing to chronicle this repellent social movement, David. You have (as has been said before) assigned yourself one of the worst jobs in the world, but I’m glad someone is doing it.
And to the many, many women who read this site, just…fuck. I’m really sorry about all this. To paraphrase the orange shitweasel: The men, they’re not sending their best.
Oh, FUCK these guys. The only relevance they have where women are concerned is their fever dreams of an existence they’ll never experience because their rhetoric is a natural forcefield of ick.
I can’t even try to parse this shit. It’s just a ball of toxic waste.
All women are secretly Lilith, apparently.
Best I got.
“they are only good for making kids, cooking and cleaning”
Spoken like somebody who has no idea of the effort involved for any of that.
This stuff makes me so sad. I really do not know if I identify as a man or a woman anymore. I have known I am trans for a very long time, since I was a kid I was sure that I was really meant to be a man. But these people spoil it for me. We try to live in an egalitarian society where people are valued as individuals, no matter what their biological sex or gender identity. Then these wank goblins show me how awful and reprehensible being a man really is. My father would have fitted right in with them, he was pre internet, but a true shitlord. He treated my mum as a slave and always put her down in front of me from when I was very small. I fear that if I had not been a girl, instead of just being made to feel inadequate, I would have grown up arrogant and privileged and been just like they are. Maybe being female saved me from that? I don’t know. 🙁
Another day, another alt-right/MGTOW reminder of what an absolute shit woman I am. (Uninterested in children, crappy cleaner, active voter of giving away white male privilege, writer of documents that need research and ability to make an argument).
Reading Otto Weiniger’s “Sex and Character” and Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” was enough for me to understand that both of them had huge misunderstandings of society and women, unnecessarily huge.
Weiniger’s philosophy had a big influence on Hitler and was one of the main reasons why he was so radically convinced of ending the Jews.
Weiniger’s philosophy was very bad though, he pretty much associated everything evil in the world with women and everything good with men. And since his fellow Jews were evil according to him, they were considered female too. It’s the laziest dichotomy I’ve ever seen in my history of studying philosophy.
When a dictatorship is born from silly “philosophies” like this then you understand why it failed so badly. Among the totalitarian systems of the 1900 Nazism had the shortest life span (barely 12 years)and was the first to fail.
Fascism, was the second one to fall and lasted 21 years.
The funny thing is that Fascism failed because of Hitler. Mussolini was doing pretty well until 1936 then he decided to follow Hitler’s lead and look where that brought him.
The russian socialism instead lasted way longer, until the 90s. It was the most successful and the most powerful one. It was also Hitler’s n1 enemy.
Everytime I see someone brag about Hitler and his wokeness I wonder how ignorant and misinformed they are.
He’s the shittiest dictator in the whole goddamn world history.
This is why no one should take advice or even follow the alt right. They have no clue about real world history and they don’t even care.
Yup. The Toxic (White) Manosphere is a helluva drug.
I confess that I initially read the header as “Gina Tingles” and I was all, “Oh, sweet brown baby Jesus, who have these fucknuggets doxxed NOW?”
It’s always funny when people who crave authoritarian regimes accuse others of being herd animals. Do they think they’ll be the exception and they’ll have total freedom while the people they don’t like live under the authoritarian rule? They can’t really believe that, can they? Or is it just another double standard? Women doing something trendy = bad. Men following a strongman or fantasizing about doing so = good.
As opposed to men who are not part of nature?
Toddlers are harder to lead than adults though. The part of the brain that controls impulses isn’t developed yet. They don’t understand that things like bathing, getting sleep or taking medicine is necessary and so they can be highly resistant to it. Adults are much more like to understand that sometimes you have to do things you don’t want to do. Toddlers are also much worse at communicating their wants and needs than adults. Toddlers have shorter attention spans than adults. Toddlers are adorable and often fun but they can be damn hard to deal with sometimes. Anyone who can lead toddlers well has my admiration.
@ aulma
I’ve always been curious as to what the Nazis expected to happen at the end of the thousand years. I know it was just a nebulous concept and slogan; but why put a limit on it? You’d have thought they’d have gone for something more open ended. If they’re modelling it on the first two ‘rhiechs’ was that an implicit acknowledgment that they were ultimately heading for failure and collapse?
You know what I find interesting, Skippy?
What I find interesting is that I am never fooled by you.
I hate the “gina tingles” thing. It’s so irritating that men can take the same behaviors and call it a bad thing when women do it and a not-bad thing when men do it. A woman making a decision they don’t agree with because of gina tingles? It just proves that women are evil and selfish and too inferior to think rationally! A woman objects to being sexually harassed? Oh, well men can’t help but act on it when they find a woman attractive. It’s your fault for attracting him and your job to reign in men’s boners! Maybe we should keep women out of public spaces so that men won’t be tempted to harass them.
Aulma, as you may know, Weiniger’s “Sex and Character” is often cited by manospherians who want to seem intellectual. I don’t know if any of them have read it all the way through but it comes up a lot.
@Alan the “1000 years” slogan was pretty popular during those times, Churchill even used it to speak about the British Empire.
The Nazis probably chose it to guarantee that it would be a successful Reich, more successful than the first one that lasted 844 years and the second one that lasted 37 years.
But I might be wrong, there are many differing opinions on this.
Actually I doubt the Nazis put too much thought into this, they just used whatever seemed to work.
Man, between encouraging interracial marriage and out-and-out creating feminism and all that, these guys make Jews sound unbelievably cool. But then I’m like, “But if Jews are so liberal and so effective, why can’t we find and enact an ethical solution re: Palestine”? Sigh.
@ aulma
Ooh, cheers. I’m learning a lot today (love this site for that).
And yeah on the foresight front. I’ll re-use one of my favourite quotes from a non Nazi German government official at the time: “The Nazis talk about a thousand year Reich but can’t think ahead five minutes”.
@Gussie Jives
We’re all Liliths, Jezebels, Helen of Troys and Thaïs. Good for nothing (as raising children, cooking and cleaning mean nothing to them) except with the task of destroying all civilization.
It’s tiring to read the same toxicity from the manosphere over and over again.
@David Futrelle
I saw them citing it once, didn’t know it was popular with them though. Yeah I doubt they have read all of it. If they did, they’re probably dead now; the whole “philosophy” is like a blob of cancer cells.
I have to puke.
Especially at the one who basically say “don’t get fooled, woman aren’t sentient being”. Not only am I pretty sure a tree is more sentient than them, but it require a critical mass of reality shutdown to not scoff at that very concept.
If their pack leader said that doors are a fantasm created by feminism, would they be able to get out of their rooms ?
Posts like these make me wonder if these dudes every experience the real world. You literally cannot leave your home without encountering women who work at every level in every field. There may be some in which women are under-represented, but they are there too.
Throughout my day, I see women at work, as cashiers where I shop, on the phone when I have a problem with an account, at the restaurants I eat in as bartenders, servers and hostesses, at the flower shop where I buy a gift to recommend a combination. I have friends who work in offices at various levels doing various jobs. As a professor, I do more than teach (and I don’t teach the dreaded “women’s studies” because that’s not all that exists); we have to advise students, write letters of recommendation, serve on committees, evaluate each other and part-time faculty and other tasks.
My point is, even in my little anecdotal world here, I see women just being human beings and doing work as well as any man and better than some. The argument that women are only good for sex/cooking/cleaning/having babies and they are ruining society just seems so ludicrous.
Here I was thinking of Gina Tingle, Chuck Tingle’s sister!
(no, not really)
@Alan
Glad to help!
Love that quote. Witty and concise.
The next step for these guys seems to be consolidating their hatreds and assuming that all women are Jews. They don’t seem very far from that argument as it is.
Which, if so, would be utterly hilarious. Because Judaism follows matrilineal inheritance rules, and the natural implication of that argument would be that all people are Jewish 😛 I always love it when a perspective this incoherent turns round and skewers itself.
@WWTH
“Do they think they’ll be the exception and they’ll have total freedom while the people they don’t like live under the authoritarian rule? They can’t really believe that, can they? Or is it just another double standard?”
Yes.
The issue of alt-right double standards reminds me of the things I’ve heard from apologists of racial chattel slavery in the early U.S….”it wasn’t that bad…they were taken care of, fed….” [etc. etc. blah blah bullshit] ….when I offer the response “o.k., so if it’s such a good deal, then YOU wouldn’t mind if someone enslaved you, right?” Usually only a dumbfounded look follows.
It’s also common for MRAs to claim that about women. Being cared for and protected is a privilege, so what if the trade off is no rights. Yet you don’t exactly see them clamoring to give up the vote and control over their finances to become house husbands.
Hilariously, one time a commenter here (I think it was Shaenon) offered troll of yore NWO Slave free room and board but no pay if he wanted to come live at her place and do all the housework. He’d been going on about what a privilege it is to be a SAHM and how he wished he could have that life. He didn’t take her up on it.