There’s nobody quite so sensitive to the subtle oppression of men in contemporary society than the guys who hang out on Involuntary Celibacy forums online. Which is perhaps why they spend so much of their time, er, consciousness raising about the critical issue of fat women who have sex.
On the Incels subreddit, the regulars return to the topic again and again in innumerable threads decrying the fat girl menace. Their central complaint: Fat women are able to have sex with pretty much any man they want, while similarly fat men lead lives of not-so-quiet celibacy.
“Must be nice being a fat woman,” writes someone called ASS_F.
Still get an enormous amount of dating options. Can still date perfectly decent looking men. Can fuck lower tier or drunk Chads. May even be able to shag a model every now and again.
Fellow Reddit incel mcfill1 agrees:
Women have the opportunity to be disgusting slobs and still date up.
Alas, the incels complain, this option is simply not available to men. As Afroaway00 puts it,
all women are attractive to at least some men. they can be midgets, obese, extremely tall, doesn’t matter. only men can truly be unattractive.
ZyrrosLooks explains the supposed SCIENCE behind this supposed fact:
The most funny thing of all is that fat levels affect much more unforgivingly men than women.
A difference between 12 and 16% bodyfat in a woman makes almost no difference in attractiveness. On a man it can be the difference between chad and under average, night and day. Men are expected to have very lean faces, and thus have much much harsher requirements on being lean than women.
So even in the ONLY thing that women require to be attractive, men have it much harsher, its ridiculous.
Indeed, ijustwantsomefriendz adds, with a dollop of transphobia on top,
All a woman needs to be fuckable is have a vagina
(We’ve met ijustwantsomefriendz before; he’s the guy whose incel subreddit “flair” declares that “females deserve the rope.”)
But even the fattest women get endless affirmations from thirsty men, incels complain. Usingthistoshitpost informs his fellow incel Redditors that
I was on meetme last night and 9 out of 10 of the girls on there were obese, disgusting slobs. And here is the kicker, the majority of them have orbiters and men telling them they are THICK and beautiful.
While most incels agree with usingthistoshitpost that these fat women are “disgusting” — and one even says that he doesn’t “consider them humans” — incels are also furious that these “disgusting,” inhuman, sex-having women don’t want to have sex with them. A fellow called DeLaNoochie indignantly reports that he
Thought it would be a piece of cake landing a porker. Boy, was I wrong. It’s unbelievable how much power they have. Everyone hates on them but plenty of guys fuck them. Hypocritical bastards. And they make it tougher for guys because apparently they’re sought after. Wtf
Gosh, who could possibly have imagined that “porkers” wouldn’t want to have anything to do with guys who call them “porkers?”
Even setting aside the horrific misogyny for a second, you may have noticed that pretty much none of these incel beliefs about fat women, fat men and sex have any basis in reality whatsoever — with the exception of the thing about fat women not wanting to date them.
Yes, fat women have sex. Sometimes they even — quelle surprise! — have sex with the sort of conventionally “hot” guys that incels would denounce as “chads.” But guess what, incel dudes, fat guys have sex too, sometimes even with the conventionally hot women you dudes call “Stacies.” (Hell, fat, broke, middle-aged blogger dudes who rarely leave their apartments have sex.)
None of this should be a revelation to anyone. Just take a look at the couples you see walking together through the nearest park; I guarantee you’ll see more than a few fat guys holding hands with women of all shapes and sizes. Most Americans, regardless of gender, are classified as overweight or obese today; the overwhelming majority of them have had sex.
The widespread manosphere belief — seemingly shared by most incels — that 80% of women are having all the sex with only 20% of men, with the rest of the men living sad, celibate lives, has absolutely no basis in reality; I don’t think I’ve ever seen any manospherian even try to provide statistics to back it up. Because those statistics don’t exist.
Incels claim that fat or otherwise less than “perfect”-looking men are treated much more harshly than women; the rest of us know that’s ridiculous. Women are fat-shamed from girlhood to old age, often when they are as far from fat as I am far from skinny. (I only started to get shit about my weight after I started writing about misogynistic men.) Women and girls are three times more likely to develop anorexia than men and boys.
Again, none of this is news to anyone who lives outside of the reality-distortion field of the incel subculture. Incel ideology is a mixture of misogyny and self-hatred that’s as toxic to believers as it is offensive to everyone outside their not-so-charmed circle.
Some man-loving women prefer dudes with chiseled bodies; others — perhaps even most of them, according to one possibly less-than-completely scientific survey — prefer their men with a bit of pudge.
But very few women are into bitter incel assholes who hate themselves nearly as much as they hate women. Most incel dudes — at least going by the pictures they sometimes post — are fairly average looking. It’s not their looks that keep them celibate; it’s the poison that fills their brains.
@ Kupo (I hope I’m doing that right, I’m new to this place and a little dumb): Thank you for validating me by responding to my attention-grabbing comment. I almost feared I’d get completely ignored.
Anyway, I obviously don’t have any statistical data on which I based my statement. It’s more of a gut feeling that tells me there will always be men attracted to women of all shapes and sizes. On the other hand, personal experience and more of that gut feeling tell me there will always be men no woman finds attractive.
Oh and yeah, you’re absolutely right that I feel proud to get mocked weirwoodtreehugger. It means I’m doing at least something to get noticed. Besides, life is boring and the hugbox that is r/incels can get a little lifeless. Sometimes a man needs some opposition to feel alive.
Don’t feel too proud. We have a feed trolls till the burst policy around here. You’ll either flounce or lose your temper and get banned soon enough.
No one in the manosphere ever does. It was obvious to us too.
Yes there are men attracted to all shapes and sizes. So? There are women attracted to all shapes of size. Even though I tend to like skinny or lean muscled guys, I’ve dated chubby guys. Because most people aren’t as shallow as you guys are. Most of us have other criteria than where someone fits on a 1-10 scale of conventional hotness. And even though I always hear whines about how women are never into short men, I have been into more short guys than tall guys. If no women ever finds you attractive, it’s because you hate women and because of the self pity and because like most incels, you probably don’t actually put any effort into a finding a partner. It’s not your looks.
Not that I expect you to take any of this on board. You’re too determined to wallow in self pity and too resentful of the fact that women are allowed to say no.
That shows me just how privileged you are despite your determination to believe you’re the gold medalist in the oppression Olympics. People who are actually oppressed are sick of all the opposition they encounter when just asking to be treated like an actual human being.
@Afroaway00
I’m a man and I never understood this “feel alive.”
Don’t worry, I don’t intend to troll and I don’t easily lose my temper either. I’m sure I’ll fit in perfectly.
I certainly don’t hate women and I’m also not really self-pitying. I’m not going to look too deeply into the question of why women don’t find me attractive and will just keep on assuming it’s my looks.
Again, I self-pity on occasion but it’s not something that really defines my life. And I have absolutely no problem with women saying no. It sucks to hear, obviously, but I totally get it.
I’ll grant you that I am pretty privileged though. But then again, I’ve never asserted otherwise. The ratio of privilege to general suckiness is often the topic of my comments on r/incels.
@Ooglyboggles
I simply meant that I enjoy arguing. We’re all too obsessed with ourselves over on r/incels to really argue with one another. That’s why I like visiting spaces like this.
Then why are you on r/incels?
I’ve taken a look at it, as other people here have and it’s appalling in every thread. When women venture over there to comment, they get called slut or bitch. Women with any sexual experience are called “roasties” among other things. I’ve seen the assertion more than once that women can’t experience depression. Not to mention all the Elliot Rodger worship.
If you don’t hate women, you sure don’t see the hatred of women as any kind of deal breaker. For all intents and purposes, identifying with a community that has some of the most virulent misogyny I’ve ever seen is the same damn thing as hating women.
@Afroaway
Just off the top of my head, i find Sarah Palin to be completely unattractive, and not because of her looks. I think i just destroyed your opening statement.
I mainly use r/incels to express self-hatred without getting challenged. I’m not saying that as a way to fish for sympathy/pity or to get into a discussion about depression. Simply stating the reason I’m on there.
That’s why I don’t think it is necessary to hate women in order to feel at home on r/incels. I don’t disagree with you that there are a lot of misogynists there and that some of the content posted there is terrible but I’ve always managed to avoid that kind of content and still post a lot. I can see why you’d feel like that is not enough though, and understand why you’d think posting there still makes me a misogynist. So I won’t argue your assertion that I’m a misogynist. I disagree but I can see what you’re coming from.
This troll reminds me of someone I encountered while talking about a game I enjoy.
This particular RPG, Expeditions: Viking, allows the player to have a woman as the main character. And whether the player does or does not do this, half of all characters in the rest of the game are women. In addition, while it acknowledges historical misogyny in quite a few scenes, it downplays it.
I, fool that I am, made a post on the game forum talking about these things and thanking the developers for all of this. Including downplaying the misogyny. It wound up acknowledging the issue without forcing me to internalize it.
There were a lot of misogynist trolls bitching on my post, but one of them stuck out to me. He was a guy who always played women characters specifically to experience misogyny, and he wished the misogyny in the game was more horrible so he’d have something else to experience. He also was bitching about the minuscule prejudice men sometimes face.
And refused to understand how someone like me might not want to confront my daily lived experience every time I did something fun in my time off.
Men tend to use misogyny in games as the world’s shittiest theme park cause they don’t face meaningful oppression in their own lives. I think it’s similar to what this troll is doing here – deliberately generating opposition for himself because he knows in his heart and soul that he is nowhere near threatened enough to hold the positions he holds.
@Afroaway00
Compartmentalize all you want, you’re still deciding to seek comfort from a subreddit that is inherently hateful and misogynistic.
Hoo boy.
Aww, what a cute little troll.
I imagine he looks like this little guy:
Or maybe he lifts?
Missed the edit window.
Then you’re not going to find a solution to your problem. If you can’t reflect on yourself and really put an effort into changing the things that you don’t like, you’re not going to have happy relationships.
I’m not really sure what makes me a troll. I’m also not sure in how I’m all that similar to the person you’re describing, IgnoreSandra.
@Ooglyboggles: I’d phrase it slightly differently. I seek comfort in, or at least make use of, a subreddit that houses a lot of hatred and misogyny. I think the hatred is probably inherent but the misogyny isn’t necessarily. But like I said, I can’t argue with anyone saying that staying in a place that hateful and misogynistic also makes me those things, if only by association. To be quite honest, if r/incels had as many racists or islamophobes as it has misogynists I would probably never have gone there in the first place. So that definitely showcases that I’m misogynist because I turn a blind eye to the misogyny of others.
@Kupo: Well, the hair is pretty similar. And you’re right that I’m not going to find the solution to my problem.
If you feel at home among people who hate women so much that they worship a mass murderer who wanted to put women into concentration camps, then you must not see women as human beings. If you did see us human, you would be sickened that your friends dismiss the victims of the Manchester attack as “future Stacies” so who cares if they were children being maimed and killed. You would be sickened at the hatred and not want to associate with.
But you don’t care.
You are not fooling anyone.
If you just wanted a place to express your feelings of self hatred without being judged, there are forums for people with depression. You didn’t go there. You went to r/incels. There must have been a reason for that.
@Afroaway00
Bullshit. I know enough of incel types from personal experience that no one who was a decent person would actually think that it’d be okay to hang around a board dedicated to the human equivalent of caked dirt hidden in the dark corners of the web.
@Axe
You used Boufalant’s nym instead of the troll’s nym
@Boufalant
Assuming you’re genuine in your understanding and self assessment, this is definitely the least attractive thing about you. Whatever else you think is wrong with you, this is worse. Guaranteed. Not just that you’re a misogynist asshat. That you know you are and aren’t brought depressively, desperately low by the realization, Greek tragedy style, yet immediately steeled to make amends is way more a turn off than literally anything else could be. Also, it’s just being a shitty person, but I imagine that’s less important to you than the world’s smallest violin playing dirges from your pubes
Too harsh?
Not too harsh at all. I appreciate the honest comments. I also agree that I’m pretty shitty and not a decent person at all. That being said I don’t think I’m trying to fool anyone, including myself. From my own personal experience I can say that it’s very possible to post on r/incels while avoiding the Elliot Rodgers topics and other more vile stuff. I’m fully aware that avoiding that doesn’t excuse me of anything but its not the same as participating in it.
And as for the reasons I don’t go to another forum for depression, I’ve found that those are often filled with more self-pity than self-hatred. Besides, they often still have their fair share of inspirational posts and resident advice–givers. I don’t really care for any of that. I still visit subreddits like r/2meirl4meirl which are more my style.
@Extended voiceless bilabial-labiodental affricate
Was gauging the room, definitely not asking you
@ afroway
I would have to disagree. Misogyny is that forum’s USP. Whilst the hatred that you acknowledge sometimes crosses over into other targets, it is principally directed at women. And occasionally , by extension, men who don’t hate women.
You say you enjoy self loathing. Well, that’s a matter for you of course. I wouldn’t seek to interfere with that; even though there are places you could seek some help possibly. I do however question whether it is indeed self loathing. Incels do seem obsessed with a perverse ‘four Yorkshiremen’ race to the bottom in claiming persecution or oppression. But I’m unconvinced it’s real. It just seems to be used as a justification or, more often, a provocation. It’s an excuse to be as vile as possible. For example cf the common incel claim that their (self imposed) status means they suffer more than the victims of genocide and rape (whom they often declare to actually be lucky).
You’ll be aware that one of the worst sins in inceldom is actually trying to help or offer solutions. You make no secret about that.
No one would object if you wanted to crawl into some nihilistic dark corner. Some people might even have a quantum of sympathy if women were merely collateral damage of some genuinely hurt individuals. But it’s clear, and indeed admitted by incels, that they exist only to revile and, if possible, hurt women. So to suggest that misogyny is merely a side effect of that site is disingenuous to say the least.
As more eloquent posters than me succinctly put it, it’s a feature not a bug.
Yes it is. If you accept virulent misogyny, you enable it. Enabling it is participating in it.
@Afroaway00
Cool on the hair. You might get some crap from the manosphere for having blue and/or pink hair, though. It’s some kind of SJW tell in their minds for some reason.
Why do you enjoy hating yourself so much? I mean, I’ve been there, so I’m not asking why people in general do this, but I’m curious about your motives and the extremes you go to by visiting these places.
Notice how Afroway said he’s here to argue but we’re not actually arguing about anything. We’re just talking about him. The biggest thing incels have in common besides hating women is the complete inability to talk about or think about anything other than themselves.
In fact, I suspect that the reason he goes to r/incels instead of a depression forum is that in a space like that, he’d be expected to provide support and listen as well as talk about his problems and he doesn’t want to do that.
I’m engaging him not because I care about how he feels and not because I believe I can convince him to see the light. I’m engaging to show anyone who might be reading this that they should not be fooled into sympathizing with these people and should not waste their time trying to help them because it’s a waste of energy.
@WWTH
Apropos of nothing, but you had asked in another thread why Roman people are portrayed as speaking with British accents.
It makes sense if you consider the fact that Britannia Superior and Britannia Inferior were, once, two of the Empire’s greatest provinces, and I have always personally thought that the British Empire was the successor to the Romans in the grand scheme of things.
Carry on, I just couldn’t remember where it was you asked this.
This really gets to the heart of it. I read in the comments policy that you’re not supposed to make it all about yourself and I did it anyway. All I can say in my defence is that I sincerely didn’t come here to make it all about myself but I guess I just can’t help it. I also wasn’t trying to fool anyone into sympathizing and/or pitying me but self-pity and a victim-complex are like a second nature to me. I also suspect you’re right on the whole depression forums thing. Not that I’m always a bad listener mind you but when I’m in this frame of mind I do get very self-absorbed.
Anyway, if I were to stay here I’d probably wouldn’t be able to not make everything about myself. I’d keep talking about myself until you’d all get so sick of it you would start ignoring me. So I won’t waste any of your time anymore and leave. I would like the record to note that I didn’t flounce or lose my temper. You’re simply right and it’s useless for me to fight it.
Btw, I’m afraid that even the language of this comment sounds a little too self-pitying and like I’m talking from a place of victimhood. That’s genuinely not my intent.
Victor LaValle wrote an interesting essay about being overweight and issues with dating and sex. His conclusions were a bit different from those at the incel forum though.
http://www.nerve.com/personalessays/lavalle/bigtime