MGTOW Saturday continues with an exciting new evo-psych explanation as to why women, who are so evil, are also so appealing to most men. Because they’re basically giant, sexy Big Macs, at least according to this evo-psychologist wannabe posting in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.
And now I’m hungry again.
https://youtu.be/OJi4bln-hHQ
One thing nobody has brought up regarding public displays of BDSM vs. “normal” PDA: If the onlookers don’t know that it’s just for kink reasons in advance, the someone roughing their SO up in public or humiliating them can and should elicit alarm and censure. Even if subsequently explained, it might not be believed or may be seen as crying wolf and desensitizing people to cases of actual abusive behavior.
I reckon I really do have to explain that I didn’t say that.
What I said is that some actions advance feminism and some don’t. I never said don’t do the ones that don’t. In fact, I explicitly said that the problems with “I choose my choice” shouldn’t make Katie not do BDSM with her boyfriend. I never said don’t wear makeup, don’t dress in pink, or don’t flirt with people. I never even mentioned sex workers. I am not trying to police anyone’s femininity or anyone’s life choices. I’m saying have some fucking awareness. Don’t walk through life with blinders on. That’s controversial now, apparently? “Be aware that what you do has consequences” is controversial when I say it about women?
The critique of choice feminism is not problem-free. Nitpicking on the choices of individual women is only possible if we ignore how societal forces constrain choice down to a narrow range, none of which are good. But bad on me for assuming that was too complicated a topic to get into from the starting gun. I definitely should jump straight into Feminism 630 immediately next time.
POM,
You have some good points. Our choices are not made in a vacuum. I even agree with Andrea Dworkin that piv sex cannot truly be said to be (entirely) consensual in a world where women are still pushed toward sex with cis men, pressured to see their value in relationships with men as purely sexual, and told in a thousand ways that they owe sex to men.
Here’s the problem:
The same can also be said of women choosing to abstain from piv sex in a culture that slut shames and where men devalue a woman’s physical pleasure, emotional wellbeing and safety where casual sex is concerned and where ltrs involve so much labor and compromise as a one way street for women who desire sex with men.
We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t, if we insist only one choice is the feminist choice.
I also see treating anything traditionally considered feminine as anti-feminist as problematic, since that contributes to femephobia.
Seeing the traditionally feminine choice as the lesser choice is problematic, even when that choice is also problematic.
I also don’t think a person can objectify themself and I think that receiving monetary compensation for catering to the male gaze can be seen as feminist, even if a patriarchal, capitalist society might push a woman to find that work attractive.
Same goes for wearing make up or being a SAHM. Within the white supremacist, capitalist, heteronormative, patriarchy there is no such thing as a choice made outside of it’s influence. I’m not sure we can then say one choice is more feminist than another since even the choice to say, shave our legs or not is only a choice made in response to it, not independent of it.
If people do not consent to be part of your kink, you shouldn’t make them a part of your kink.
That’s not OK.
POM,
Exotic dancers are sex workers.
I do not think the issue here is that you are the only one with an advanced understanding of feminism.
You are merely disagreeing, albeit passionately.
A single choice made by a woman may have feminist aspects and serve to uphold the status quo. I do not think it is a simple feminist/antifeminist binary.
@Lea
Some choices advance feminism and some don’t. Shaving your legs is the neutral choice in the US, since the expectation is that women will do that. Choosing not to do that normalizes the idea that women don’t have to shave and are normal if they don’t. Since not shaving helps to open up more options for women, that is the feminist choice. Shaving is not a feminist choice, since it does not accomplish that.
With that said, women don’t typically “choose” to shave their legs. They do it because society says they must. It’s a choice in the sense that they could choose not to, but that choice comes with societal sanction, including potentially negative economic consequences for not conforming with the feminine ideal. That makes it not really a choice.
“I choose my choice” pretends that leg-shaving is actually a choice and that the choice to do it wasn’t constrained, and that it’s automatically feminist just because a woman decided to buy a razor today. Yes, in an ideal world women would choose, freely, to shave their legs or not, and shaving would have the same moral weight as not (which is to say, none). We don’t live in that ideal world. Shaving one’s legs isn’t feminist. That is not to say one shouldn’t do it, because one absolutely should if it means maintaining a better position in a world that hates women. But that means that shaving is a hustle that one must do to survive. It doesn’t make it a feminist act, and we should be aware of what we’re doing when we shave.
eta:
I didn’t mention exotic dancers. I’m aware that they do sex work.
The basic problem, I think, is that there’s an insoluble conflict (or at least I have never seen a real solution).
On the one hand, the ideal is to have people free to be whatever they feel they are without judgment as long as they do not harm others. (Unfortunately, the concept of harming others has definitional problems. Feminists and fundie Christians would have a LOT of disagreement on that. But as an abstract principle, I think we all support the concept of individual choice and freedom. I have always believed that this was the ultimate goal of feminism)
On the other hand, we exist in a society which has a substantial commitment to gender stereotypes that are restrictive, destructive, obsolete and dysfunctional. In the process of being ourselves, to the extent that we accidentally coincide with the stereotype for our biological sex, we inevitably tend to reinforce those destructive stereotypes in our own small way. I’m a large (6’3″) male and I would have very great difficulty not to present as “masculine” (although personally I do not identify with any gender), and so to some extent I probably reinforce the standard “masculine” stereotype just by being me in public, even though I’ve done a lot of traditionally “feminine” things in my life (like refusing to be drafted and being the primary caregiver to my children). My wife, on the other hand, has done a lot of “masculine” things like being the first female physics major at her college and being the breadwinner for our family, but she has a “Rubenesque” body type and would find it almost impossible not to present as “feminine”. When she’s in public, the Rubenesque part is obvious but not the physics major and IT professional part.
So the problem here is that by being ourselves we may reinforce the gender stereotypes to a tiny but non-zero degree, which in the aggregate adds up to an unfortunate reinforcement of the stereotypes. I don’t see any way to eliminate this conflict, particularly since society puts a lot of pressure on people to conform to the “appropriate” stereotype, so it is always easier to conform, in public at least, and exhausting to fight against. Every person has to weigh this conflict for themselves and decide on their own conduct, but one still needs to accept that the conflict exists and that one’s decisions have consequences.
That being said, it is not acceptable to be a stinker to others about their choices.
POM,
I don’t know why you think you needed to explain that to me. I thought I adequately explained I understood that point and still disagreed with your overall assertion of choices being either or.
For example, as a fat middle aged woman, embracing my femininity and sexuality in the face of a society that tells me I have neither by choosing to adorn myself in make up, jewelry, etc can be seen as feminist.
However, there is also a pressure on women like me to present as more groomed, more polished and more traditionally feminine in order to be viewed as feminine and sexual. Desirability may not even be my goal, but it influences my choices. Whether that choice is to present one way or another, it will be viewed through the lense of sexism.
Am I comfortable and natural or am I giving up and a slob? Am I enjoying accentuating my features and seeing myself as worthy of being adorned or am I catering to the male gaze?
No choice happens in a vacuum. If I let you or anyone else define them, is that any more feminist?
My point is, I personally find the issue extremely complicated and believe it serves us better to keep our critiques focused on the patriarchy, rather than women’s responses to it because everything we do is a resonse to it and will be denigrated by it.
I’m sorry, I mistakenly attributed the comment about exotic dancers to you. Someone else must have made it and I addressed my response to you concerning it. My mistake.
It was Sally that made the comment about “strippers”.
It was Sally who mentioned “strippers,” which somehow got changed to “exotic dancers”.
(Ninja’d by Lea.)
.
I think we can accept that women should not be condemned for being exotic dancers — which is probably normally an economic decision, in the sense that there is no nearly equally remunerative choice — without denying that it does tend to reinforce destructive stereotypes about women.
POM also makes an excellent point that, given the stereotypes, there are many situations (such as women shaving their legs) where there is no “neutral” option. Either choice is a sort of statement, whether or not you want it to be.
The shaving thing is really hard for me. I don’t like shaving. It itches. I have skin issues so it gives me razor burn and cuts no matter what blade I use or how careful I am. It’s never been something I’ve chosen for myself. But I was shamed for not shaving as a teenager and so far have not been comfortable going out in public unshaven. I’m planning on doing it during my vacation this summer but that was also my plan last summer and I chickened out. I hate everything about this.
It got changed to exotic dancers because “strippers” is insulting and downplays the fact many of them preform gymnastic feats to entertain and do not merely remove their clothes.
whether or not you want it to be
Ah, so I’m just a victim of motivated reasoning. Clearly my comments showed no sign of understanding how patriarchy influences my choices. I’m not basing my views in reality at all. Just being emotional. Like a woman. And we all know anyone presenting femme or doing “women’s work” is merely a pawn of their oppressors who can’t do thinky. That’s just Feminism 8,000.
Gotcha.
Well, I’m done with this thread.
@Lea
Probably for the same reason you went on to explain yourself to me again. Why did you do that? Why not ascribe that same motive to me?
Feminism that means “whatever a woman does” is meaningless. Women do all kinds of things. Some of them are choices are some are less choices than hustles. Some of them are harmful to other women. You’re never going to convince me that this is a thing that I need to accept or else I’m pushing other women down. What I’m asking for is awareness, not for people to stop wearing makeup or jewelry or what-have-you. What I’ve asked for since post 1 was awareness, full stop.
Feminism that can’t be defined is also meaningless. I want my feminism to have some meaning.
I’m also going to interrogate my feminism and critique it. I’ll note that you’re critiquing mine right now, so you obviously don’t object to doing that on general principles. I don’t think you’re not allowed to critique me, but I don’t think it’s reasonable for you to do so by saying I’m not allowed to critique others.
@Grumpy
Was that PoM’s point? I’m pretty sure they specifically labeled not shaving a neutral action. I think you’re agreeing with @Lea…
@kupo
I don’t shave my legs. I think it takes too much time and energy and materials. I also don’t show my legs basically anywhere. I don’t swim and I wear pants all summer. I haven’t worn a dress since the 90s.
So while my not-shaving ways could be seen as a feminist statement, it’s a statement made only to myself, and is therefore meaningless. I’m not making a feminist icon of myself by choosing not to shave. My choices in this area could be viewed as feminist in other contexts, but in our world they are not.
@PoM
I’m pretty much the same except I do like to swim and sometimes I’ll wear shorts. But I don’t feel comfortable exposing my bare legs and armpits. So when I go on vacation where there’s a pool I plan on swimming in, it’s going to be a statement for me to have unshaven legs, because the assumed default in this country is for women to shave. In fact, many people find an unshaven woman to be unclean.
@kupo
My decision not to shave complements very well my general body discomfort. Even when I was half my age and faaaaaar thinner, I wasn’t comfortable with other people seeing my body. Today it’s hard for me to go outside without a jacket. I just don’t like it when people look at me and can see me. So I don’t experience any great loss by not wearing shorts. The loss comes from a more pressing and immediate psychological problem. Ultimately my other problems actually make it way easier for me to not bother shaving.
On the other hand, skin cancer runs in my family so it’s ultimately medically important for me to stay covered up, so … that’s a complicated little knot right there.
I shave my legs. It helps me psychologically. I don’t know if it even qualifies as a statement at all.
Nope. I’m gonna fail the flounce.
I’m so fucking sick of men being stay at home parents being held up as grand feminists, when women who make the same choice are belittled.
A man becomes a nurse? What a hero. A woman does the same? Why wasn’t she more ambitious?
That’s still misogyny.
The pursuit of currency is just as forced upon us as any other aspect of patriarchal culture.
Choosing to to raise your own kids full time instead of getting paid to raise someone else’s can be a struggle against the status quo. So can wearing make up or shaving your legs. It is a struggle with racial and class implications. To ignore intersectional influence is to be willfully ignorant.
When we reach the point where we call men finding fulfilment in traditionally feminine things feminists, but reject the feminism of women making the same choices we are still elevating men above women.
It’s bullshit.
Now, I’m done.
I shave my legs and my armpits, but I’m not sure whether it is a statement or a habit or what. I don’t like the way they look when they are hairy (I’m well aware that this is some kind of inbuilt self hatred patriarchy bullshit, but it doesn’t change how I feel, so I shave)
However, I have a huge emotional reaction to even the slightest suggestion that I might shave my pubic hair (to any degree, even around the edges). It provokes this immediate NOOOO! It’s like the badger nope gif.
I associate it with being a little girl, and so therefore for obvious reasons I find being sexual when shaved very difficult because it’s all tied up in my head with child abuse. To me it’s a symbol I’m an adult.
I have on occasion had the suggestion that I shave it off, to which I say “You can get used to my untamed and luxuriant pubes or get your coat.”
I think the current conflict might be between the objectives (example: both shaved and unshaven legs being equally acceptable on fem-presenting people) and methods (example: not shaving to normalize being unshaven) of feminism,
no idea how to address the subject just my observation.
I grew up during the Great Hair Wars of the 60s, which probably colors my thinking. If you were a lefty male, you were supposed to wear your hair long as a sign of rebellion against convention. If you were a righty male, you wore it short to affirm convention. If you were me, a lefty who (at that time) preferred fairly short hair (and hated to conform to the standard variety of nonconformism), it was frequently assumed that you were a righty. I used to argue that what was IN your head was more important than what was ON TOP of it; nevertheless, however you wore your hair was going to be taken as a political statement, whether or not you wanted it to be. And to some extent, when a woman shaves her legs because she really wants to (and I’m not sure that is ever really the case), she will be seen as conforming to the feminine stereotype whether or not she wants to. Most people will not recognize that she may do it because there are tangible real consequences to not shaving, like having a hard time obtaining or retaining jobs.
My guess (hopefully not a wild one) is that leg-shaving originated as one of a great number of means of exaggerating the differences between men and women, since society likes to think that males and females are vastly more different than we really are. Doing so helps to maintain the fiction that males and females are required by nature to play vastly different roles in society; so when nature hasn’t seen fit to provide really distinctive differences between the sexes, society works to remedy this “error.”
Thank you, PoM and Lea. You’re both big influences of mine. I learn something every time either of you discuss theory.