Categories
evo psych fairy tales men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny reddit

Women are basically Big Macs, but for sex, MGTOW evo-psychologist explains

Sexxxxxxy!

MGTOW Saturday continues with an exciting new evo-psych explanation as to why women, who are so evil, are also so appealing to most men. Because they’re basically giant, sexy Big Macs, at least according to this evo-psychologist wannabe posting in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit.

And now I’m hungry again.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

174 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

@GOM

My guess (hopefully not a wild one) is that leg-shaving originated as one of a great number of means of exaggerating the differences between men and women

It was capitalism at work.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/625/who-decided-women-should-shave-their-legs-and-underarms

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

Lea makes a very good point, which I experienced by being SAHD. Men get credit for any involvement with their children above a certain (very low) minimum. Women have to perform at a fairly high level just to be perceived as barely adequate.

When I decided that divorce was inevitable in my first marriage, I went to a seminar for recently divorced or separated people. There were three others, the recently-divorced psychologist and two others, all women. They all were very concerned that they had somehow deprived their children of the regular presence of their fathers in their lives, even though IN EVERY CASE THE FATHER HAD LEFT THEM FOR ANOTHER WOMAN. That really boggled my mind; I have a hard time imagining that any father whose wife had left him and their children for another man would feel that way.

Weasel-Rah
Weasel-Rah
4 years ago

Don’t flounce, Lea. I like to hear what you have to say 😰

We really got into the feminisim weeds here! Shaving and makeup wars, en garde! I do have to say it sometimes goes both ways- I’ve been called a pushy feminazi for not getting Brazilians. Not for judging people who get them, just not getting them myself. No right answers and everyone feels defensive.

On the pda thing, I feel I should clarify what I meant (not that it matters because I only brought it up because I misread Katie and it was my pet peeve) I’m not referring to casual affection like hand holding or kissing- people who object to non heteo couples doing that are full of it. I’m referring to things that are basically foreplay. A lot of kink has an element of exhibition/humiliation in it, and it gets squicky to involve people in that without consent. For instance, girl I’ve never met before- handed her leash, told to order her around. At a regular party, not a play party. No thanks pal.

Miss Verständnis
Miss Verständnis
4 years ago

I started shaving when I was a teenager because it made me feel pretty and people said nice things about me when I looked pretty. I wasn’t getting a lot of other compliments so it felt good. When I started modelling I got a Brazilian but later I switched to having a landing strip and that became my “style”. I still shave but I don’t get weekly waxes any more.

It felt good to be like that and I liked doing it but I don’t think it was a feminist thing at all. It felt like them taking control of my body and making it be just an image rather than a real human being. I really agree that they want to make it the normal thing but I also don’t think it really is the normal thing, because when I did that then they always told me how much better it made me than the other girls, and I believed them. They want us to be rare and special because that makes them better than other men because they have us and other men don’t, but they also want to believe that all women should be like that.

We can’t win, and it took me a long time to realize that.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’d agree that our preferences whether it’s personal appearance, career choice or sexual activities aren’t happening in a vacuum and it’s good to critique your own choices.

But I also hate the idea that you’re destroying feminism and setting back women by making a choice that doesn’t advance feminism. No one can perfect and vigilant all the time and there’s nothing inherently wrong with anything that gets coded as feminine anyway.

I also notice that in these conversations, the focus is always on women’s choices. We aren’t expecting men to stop preferring to date women who shave their pits and wear makeup. Or to stop going to strip clubs or watching porn. These kinds of conversations can so easily drift into blaming women for the fact that we’re the marginalized gender. Patriarchy doesn’t still exist because most women shave their legs and it won’t disappear if we all stop shaving en masse. Just as racism won’t disappear if black people just pull up their pants and stop listening to rap.

I have some quibbles with “choice feminism” but I also think that ultimately we’re better off with a big tent than we are gatekeeping who is allowed to call themselves feminists.

Although to be clear, the only person in this thread that’s really going the full blaming women for patriarchy and gatekeeping feminism route was that Sally person. I was more speaking generally than specifically referring to this thread.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
4 years ago

@everyone
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I did not expect there to be this many, and I definitely didn’t expect them to be so varied. To clarify a few things, I feel what I do in my bedroom is surely my business and I do conform to gender norms but I’m aware I’m doing it and I do it for me. I’m insecure and looking pretty makes me feel good. I can’t help what society thinks being pretty entails, and not feeling pretty makes me feel worse about myself(and I’m not gorgeous or anything, but I like to believe I’m reasonably attractive)So what’s “more feminist” in this case? Me feeling good about myself or me rejecting societal norms just for the sake of it. My idea of being feminist(and I’m a little new to this, maybe my definition will grow over time)is to truly be able to be your truest self without shame( I mean I like to be pretty but I’m also bisexual and into BDSM and polyamory which don’t exactly fit the societal norm)do whatever small(or large if you have the money or time)bits of activism or what ever you can do to help women as a group(I go to some protests, occasionally donate a few $ to PP and a couple other places when I can spare it, etc.) Small things, cause I lack money and time but small things add up right?😜And lastly, call out misogyny and bigotry when you see it and it’s not dangerous to get involved. I just don’t see how what I wear or how I fuck makes me any less(or any more)of a feminist.
Also, I never mentioned strippers but saw them mentioned by others, and I actually know girls who stripped to put themselves through college(in NYC it’s not common but it’s not ridiculously rare either)and in one case even start a small business afterwards. How is that in any way un-feminist

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Oh, and I think this was the thread where there was some discussion of avocado?

I’m team avocado all the way. They’re delicious on sandwiches and guacamole is just the best.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

There’s definitely an element of classism in how people talk about strippers.

I have a friend who does burlesque as a hobby and form of exercise. The troupe she’s in is very pro feminist. Burlesque really doesn’t get all that much slut shaming or criticism for setting back feminism. It isn’t considered trashy. It’s become in the last 10 or 15 years a really popular form of entertainment.

Burlesque does have a little bit less nudity. There’s pasties on the nipples instead of total toplessness. But they’re still doing sexy dances in sexy clothes. They’re still removing clothing as the dance goes on. They even sometimes do pole work. Do the pasties really make it that vastly different?

But burlesque is something that middle class white women enjoy. As opposed to stripping which is usually done by women from working class/poor backgrounds and who are often times not white.

So I definitely have to give the side eye to white middle class feminists who go on about how strippers are contributing to women’s oppression and shouldn’t be welcome in feminism.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

I dislike avocados, my wife and daughter love them. I buy them at the grocery if they ask me to. They don’t make me eat them. Seems to work.

dashapants
dashapants
4 years ago

@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina

Oh, we do exist. I grew up in a non-capitalist (at the time) place, and no one in my general vicinity had an opinion about leg shaving, so it would not have been an issue my mind would even address (akin to whether it’s correct that the sun rises in the east) if it wasn’t for personal dislike of skin texture with hair on it (anywhere other than one’s head). When I migrated to the US, I was quite happy to get at the razors and lasers for my own personal benefit rather than any societal pressure.

Incidentally, my personal dislike applies to dudes as well. The less hair, the better. My current boyfriend actually had hair on his legs lasered off (in an unrelated but fortunate happenstance that had more to do with scuba diving than my personal preferences) and periodically attacks the hair on his other body parts as well because it irks him by getting caught in things or whatnot (the fact that he knows how I feel about it just helps reinforce his own personal crusade).

So, yes, this can be a strictly personal choice made in a near vacuum. That being said, it does have social ramifications even when it lacks such intent for the same reason that unintentional harassment has the same effect as intentional harassment. That’s why this issue is thorny and really has to be taken on a situational case by case basis. There are few things in life that have a blanket solution or argument covering them definitively.

Miss Verständnis
Miss Verständnis
4 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

Thank you! I think you’re the first non-model I’ve heard who’s said that, and it’s really made me feel a lot less alone.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

WWTH — the problem is how to disapprove of sex work — that is, the people who exploit the women for profit — without disapproving of sex workers. Obviously, shaming sex workers is blaming the victims (and the word “victims” in that context is possibly in itself problematic). Radical feminists say that the term “sex work” tends to legitimize the exploitation, and to a certain extent they are right that it does tend to put lipstick on that particular pig. But it’s hard to get it right without splash damage. We probably need to work on more precise words that do not come as close as “sex work” and “sex worker”.

On your pasties comment: About 30 years ago I walked into my local grocery store and on the magazine rack at about the right level for children was a True Crime magazine. The cover portrayed a beautiful young woman in a bikini lying on a bed with a pile of what appeared to be animal entrails on her stomach, with a man standing over her with a dagger that appeared to be dripping blood. Obviously we were meant to perceive that he had just disembowelled her. I left the store and thought about it, and went back the next day and asked the manager to remove the magazine, which he did. He agreed that it was inappropriate, particularly where children could see it, but he just hadn’t noticed it. But thinking about it afterwards, I felt that if the woman had had her nipple exposed, the magazine wouldn’t have lasted five minutes without complaints. I’ve always been puzzled by the magical power of nipples, since (1) males have them too and (2) they are the “working” part of the (external) breast. It seems like they have become a thing to inspire lust BECAUSE they are normally hidden.

Social norms can be so bizarre if you really think about them.

dashapants
dashapants
4 years ago

Oh, and um yeah, avocados are obviously the best. And we should open eggs only from the pointy end. And bananas clearly have a stem opener and anyone who says otherwise is wrong, including monkeys. 🙂

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I can take or leave avocados. The texture is somewhat off-putting and the flavor is really good, so they leave me ambivalent. I don’t cry when avocados are present and I don’t eat around them, and I also don’t pay extra for them.

JS
JS
4 years ago

Over the verge of TMI, and into the bushes …

There are men who shave their legs for handsomeness/beauty/whatever. I’m not just talking bicycle racers. There are others who shave (or wax) parts generally considered “private” for the airy feeling, or the submission aspect. I don’t think men who shave their legs make any statement for, or against, feminism.

I’d like to think that a woman making a choice about body hair one way or the other shouldn’t be considered making a statement about feminism in general.

I’ve often wondered how you keep the hair from clogging the drains, myself.

And the whole “blood and gore is more OK than visible nipples” thing. Having worked in haunted houses for quite some time, OH BOY, is there a double standard. “Male” monsters can show the usual male-ish nipples. “Female” monsters have to wear some sort of clothing over breasts, even if they’re clearly NOT human and haven’t been for eons.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ JS

Having worked in haunted houses for quite some time

Please tell me you drive a VW camper van and own a cowardly Great Dane.

JS
JS
4 years ago

No. But I would, if it weren’t for those meddling kids, and their stupid dog!

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
4 years ago

Don’t worry, Katie– your experiences may be far from unique when dealing with people being bitchy, but don’t let them be the High Arbiters of Feminism for you, because no one is. Feminism is the belief that women and men should have equal opportunities wherever physically possible. People can disagree on how that is achieved while still being feminists, just like people who are different sects of the same religion can agree on the most fundamental (but rarely fundamentalist) points of the religion. In both cases, there will be people who say “You can’t be a REAL ____ unless you believe/do this and this and this,” which usually means that they believe the only real version of something is exactly their own version and no one else’s.

Those people tend to get more furious about someone who’s 1% different from them than someone who’s 90% different from them, because when it’s 1%, it’s subject to an intellectual Uncanny Valley effect, and that’s when the screams of heresy come out. Those people are either trying to be “purer than thou” until it gets boring and they move on, or they’re lifelong true believers who insist on dividing the world ever more thinly into allies and enemies, steadily converting the former into the latter. They’ll always say they’re totally going to start making Real Changes just as soon as they can get the movement truly purified, but there’s always a new degree of heresy to be found, and new heretics to wage war against, so they spend all their lives fighting the people who could have been on their side rather the actual problems they supposedly dedicated themselves to solving.

Don’t worry about trying to please those people, because they’re impossible to please. Don’t let their views on what is the One True Way drive you away from your values or, alternatively, make you ashamed for a sexual orientation that harms no one.

Jules
Jules
4 years ago

Off topic (feel free to delete if inappropriate):

I just watched the NatGeo doc about Syria and now I’m depressed. It was important and nuanced and interesting (at least moreso than the public discourse ATM) and everyone should see it, but now I feel like I really am living the darkest timeline and/or slow end of the world and am powerless to stop the tidal wave of lack of human decency and the next generation looking at us like barbarians and Nazi-sympathizers turning away Jews during the Holocaust.

I found it interesting how much of the footage was from cell phones and other mobile devices. That wouldn’t have been the case 20 years ago. Also how it put a mirror up to the audience (but not too early in the doc) instead of omitting the terrible things the US and other countries have done that contributed to the crisis. Also: may Assad get his comeuppance.

Sorry for the off-topic; just needed to vent I guess. And this is the blog I go to gape at extremism and the daaarkness of humanity.

Carry on.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
4 years ago

@Jules

I’m sorry. Would it cheer you up to hear that the Rojava YPG/YPJ have begun their assault on ISIS’s capital city?

Also, while this is still up for debate, it is said that the model of Democratic Socialism currently in place in Rojava is certainly admirable.

Internet socialists have been portraying Rojava as a sort of spiritual successor to the CNT/FAI of the Spanish Civil War, except that they are winning.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
4 years ago

I know exactly where you’re coming from, Jules. Then I think of all the ways it could be even worse, and feel better. Then I consider the possibility of that worse stuff happening, and I often feel worse again.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
4 years ago

As a species, we have made more progress in means of destruction than in means of community and harmony.

I find that I can confront these horrors only so much before I begin to wonder if it wouldn’t have been better if our species hadn’t existed. But you can’t give in to that, because you need to hope that you can have at least a slightly positive effect on the world. That, in essence, is what I spent 18 months in prison for. And, if it comes to that, I am willing to spend the rest of my life in prison if there’s some hope that it will help at least hold back the advance of evil.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@wwth,

So I definitely have to give the side eye to white middle class feminists who go on about how strippers are contributing to women’s oppression and shouldn’t be welcome in feminism.

Damn straight, and well said. Same goes for all sex workers.

Also, on BDSM: there is nothing un-feminist, by definition, about being a sub – just as being a dom is not inherently more feminist.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
4 years ago

OT:

So some guy dressed up as a Crusader Knight in a tunic and mail armor and whatnot was harassing people at a LGBT Pride parade today.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
You know things are bad when the Horror Movie Monster Babadook is a better being of character than these medieval regressive pukes.

Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
4 years ago

@Oogly-senpai

Ah, I see you’re abreast of the hot new icon of our movement.

I saw someone dressed up as a female version of the Babadook and now I am jellymad I can’t do it without seeming unoriginal now.

Maybe…maybe I’ll do an anime style Monster Musume version instead.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
4 years ago

@Francesca Torpedo, Femoid Special Forces Major
Hmm, female babadook…
/ googles rule 63 babadook and female babadook

It’s only jojo/undertale rule 63 and generic cosplay of the babadook. That’s disappoint.

Maybe…maybe I’ll do an anime style Monster Musume version instead.

Oh noes a trans black woman is cosplaying muh hentai monster girl anime HERESY HERESY EVERYWHERE!!!!1111!1

In all seriousness though that sounds like a pretty neat idea. Oh imagine in another universe this event happens but the media was Monster Musume, I can’t even begin to think what the anime nazis would say.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
4 years ago

@everyone
It also just occurred to me no one ever said it would be anti-feminist to submit to women, which I have also done(I’m bi) it’s just wrong if I submit to men which seems like a silly argument

@Fran
I read your response to the long comment I wrote in the other thread and I’m really sorry about your father and I can’t think of a way to help I can just offer internet hugs if you want them but I have an idea if I’m not being rude to suggest something about your mom. If your dad has been physically, verbally and emotionally abusive to your mother for a long time she might have at least mild PTSD, and her lying to you about ridiculous things that are obviously lies might just be a defense mechanism. Maybe if you sat her down and explained to her calmly you are nothing like your father and will never respond like him could help(if you haven’t tried that already) she may know it logically but not know it viscerally and maybe it could help if you discussed it. Just a suggestion, I do not know your mother so I have no idea if this is a good idea or not, it’s just an idea. Just trying to help if possible.

Also I’m perfectly happy to exchange emails or do Skype(I don’t know what the last thing you mentioned is because I’m computer illiterate) I only know Skype because my brother showed me how to do it so I could see and talk to my niece on it. I’m a touch old fashioned because I started hanging out and making friends before internet was ubiquitous so I still give people my phone number if I want to talk to them. I know that’s considered strange and/or dangerous nowadays and I almost never give it out to people I just met but if I’ve been getting along with someone(I also seem to be a pretty good judge of character, out of everyone I’ve ever given my phone number to, I’ve only had to block 4 of them and that was after either a bad breakup or betrayal of some sort)for a little while, talking on the phone is just so much easier to me than emails cause it’s what I’m used to. From the beginning emails have just seemed so impersonal to me, like something you’d use for work not for friends. I’ve only recently got accustomed to it)But Skype is cool, especially cuz you can actually see the person(to me that still seems like magic😊)Whichever communication method you prefer and makes you most comfortable is fine with me.(I also totally get the not being allowed to have people over. I’m also living with my mom at the moment and I can have a few people over but only people she’s known for over a decade. Pretty much only people I went to high school with)

I hope things are going well for you for the moment at least and I’m sure we’ll figure something out eventually. I hope you had a lovely weekend and enjoyed the weather. Long Island does seem far away to someone who lives in Manhattan(but not quite here be dragons territory like you joked before, that would be New Jersey😉)but I’m still pretty sure we have the same weather and it was finally warm and gorgeous for a few days in a row. I hope everyone else in the NYC area also got to enjoy the warm weather we finally got this weekend.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
4 years ago

@Grumpy: Forgive me if it was covered in another thread, but what was it you were imprisoned for? If it’s actually not something you want to talk about, I understand, but the way you mentioned it seemed to indicate it was for a cause, so I thought you’d probably be willing to share.

BritterSweet
4 years ago

@ Oogly and Francesca

I’ve been pretty confused about the sudden Babadook thing. Where the heck did that come from?

Edit: never mind, I just looked it up. Lol!

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@KK

It also just occurred to me no one ever said it would be anti-feminist to submit to women, which I have also done(I’m bi) it’s just wrong if I submit to men which seems like a silly argument

Not all that silly, IMO. I mean, anyone saying it’s “wrong” is a shithole of the highest order. There’s still the issue of historical, social power dynamics tho. The situations are different depending on the genders of the people taking which role. Women were literally the property of their dads/husbands not too long ago in ‘the west’. That shit still influences society today. So, the actual oppression and dominance of women by men in the culture can’t be entirely separated from the performed oppression and dominance of a woman by a man in the bedroom. Or vice versa. See what I’m saying?

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
4 years ago

@Axe
I guess I see where you’re coming from in the sense that yes women have to deal with systemically male dominated society, and that sucks. I just don’t get the mindset that jumps from there to what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom. I just don’t see how my bedroom habits are relevant in any way shape or form to my activism, views and/or politics and I especially don’t see how they can have an effect on anyone else. Like how do my bedroom habits disgrace the feminist movement? (that’s a quote, by the way)Or make other women look bad? that is what truly bothers me most about the argument.

So I guess you’re right, if you’re thinking BDSM is “anti-feminist” already, thinking it’s worse for me to submit to men isn’t silly but what makes people think that way in the first place is what I don’t understand. Because maybe I’m being naive but I do feel it’s completely different because I’m being dominated by a man (or a woman)but since it’s my own choice the performed dominance in the bedroom doesn’t seem anything like the actual oppression of women and/or the systemic sexism that runs rampant through our society. I didn’t choose those.

Then there’s also the fact that in BDSM technically the sub is truly the one in charge because you can safe word at any moment and the scene ends. Full stop. There’s no safe word to stop sexism or misogyny or rape culture in everyday society so to me it really does seem very different. If this is naive or ignorant in some way please tell me. I will not be offended cause I know I’m somewhat new to this(maybe not feminism 101 but I definitely don’t have a degree yet😊)

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Katie
Other folks have said a lot of what I would have, including Ohlmann, Axe, Paradoxy,

The short of it is basically yes, they were being assholes.

Me feeling good about myself or me rejecting societal norms just for the sake of it.

I lean towards ‘feeling good about yourself. ‘Course, I have additional reasons for performing femininity very strongly.

Also I’m perfectly happy to exchange emails or do Skype(I don’t know what the last thing you mentioned is because I’m computer illiterate)

Discord is a kinda group chat type of thing. It’s got private messages and probably private chats but I don’t know a lot about the details yet.

In the interest of keeping up with this sort of thing, and because Fran suggested it a while back, I’ve started one for the Mammoth, as a place to take OT discussions when the original thread peters out, or when they’re scattered over a bunch of threads, or when someone doesn’t want to hear about it anymore or whatever.
This should take you to a way to sign up for the app.
@Sally

For example, strippers contribute to the objectification of women as a group, no matter how they themselves feel about what they do..

Some of the men I work with would be utterly amazed to learn that taking off their clothes for money contributes to the objectification of women as a group. Given that they’re men and all, I’m not really seeing how they do either. Maybe give me a hint?

@Axe

more experienced kinksters? I’m new, feel free to tear this whole thing to shreds. There’s a pretty significant chance I’m talking utter bollocks, so hand me my ass if y’all see fit

Sounds about right to me.

@Sandra

I shave my legs. It helps me psychologically. I don’t know if it even qualifies as a statement at all..

This
@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina

WWTH — the problem is how to disapprove of sex work — that is, the people who exploit the women for profit — without disapproving of sex workers.

There’s a lot to unpack right here. For starters, the assumption that sex work is intrinsically more exploitative than any other contract labour. A lot of sex workers are in exploitative situations, to be sure, but so are a lot of farm and factory workers; nobody says that sweatshops are a reason factories should be prohibited, though. Abolition of slavery wasn’t the same thing as abolition of farm work nor domestic services.

@Fran

I’m sorry. Would it cheer you up to hear that the Rojava YPG/YPJ have begun their assault on ISIS’s capital city?

It sure boosted my mood.

Also, while this is still up for debate, it is said that the model of Democratic Socialism currently in place in Rojava is certainly admirable.

They look like having a pretty good thing going from where I stand. Which, admittedly, is very far away.

Internet socialists have been portraying Rojava as a sort of spiritual successor to the CNT/FAI of the Spanish Civil War, except that they are winning.

There’s a lot of legitimate comparisons that can be made.

@ChimericMind

Forgive me if it was covered in another thread, but what was it you were imprisoned for? If it’s actually not something you want to talk about, I understand, but the way you mentioned it seemed to indicate it was for a cause, so I thought you’d probably be willing to share..

He was a draft resister. IIRC it was mentioned in another recent thread, can’t recall which.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

Re BDSM. KatieKitten420 said

If this is naive or ignorant in some way please tell me. I will not be offended cause I know I’m somewhat new to this(maybe not feminism 101 but I definitely don’t have a degree yet😊)

It is absolutely not naive or ignorant. In case my comment earlier wasn’t clear enough: there is nothing inherently unfeminist or antifeminist about BDSM. No matter if you’re a sub or a dom; no matter if you’re sub to a guy or not.
There’s nothing inherently feminist about it, either, in case that needs clarifying.
Having a degree in a related subject isn’t necessary (just look at what Paradoxical Intention has said about being a sub – fucking eloquent and on point). However, fwiw, I have a PhD in gender studies/feminist theory. I’ve done a great deal of research and writing on BDSM. I’ve also been personally involved with it. And it is no more or no less feminist than any other sexual practice/identity.

KatieKitten420
KatieKitten420
4 years ago

@mish

The degree thing was a joke. People are always saying “we’re not here to teach you feminism 101, you can Google that shit” if it wasn’t clear what I meant. I meant I’ve just recently maybe the last five years seeing myself as a feminist and I do not know a lot of the nuances and different beliefs and different factions, etc.

But thank you very much for making me feel better about the topic. It’s something that I’m insecure about and hearing you talk so definitively makes me feel good.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

@KatieKitten420

I figured the degree comment was a joke, yes – but you often under-sell yourself (in your comments here, I mean, as that’s all I have to go on). So I thought I’d throw some academic credibility around in support of your view (like I said, very much fwiw).

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
4 years ago

@KK

I just don’t see how my bedroom habits are relevant in any way shape or form to my activism, views and/or politics

I don’t see how it wouldn’t be relevant. IME, nobody is as good at compartmentalizing stuff as they think they are. Perspective matters, experience matters. How you see the world is gonna be, even slightly, different to how a more vanilla person sees it. And that’s great!

I especially don’t see how they can have an effect on anyone else

Well, in your anecdote and right now, you’re literally talking about it with other people, so your bedroom habits do strictly have an effect on other people. But I catch your point 🙂

Like how do my bedroom habits disgrace the feminist movement? (that’s a quote, by the way)Or make other women look bad? that is what truly bothers me most about the argument

Again, *hugs*, cos that’s some fuckery right there. The only way for someone to think badly of women in response to something you do, is for them to have already had some shit views about women from the get go

since it’s my own choice the performed dominance in the bedroom doesn’t seem anything like the actual oppression of women and/or the systemic sexism that runs rampant through our society. I didn’t choose those

You didn’t choose those, they were chosen for you. And that, as you so eloquently put it, sucks 😛 Still, they do look similar, don’t they? They do present with similar trappings, right? Like, there’s a reason that male subs are often subject to emasculating play while female subs aren’t as often defeminized. Cos femininity is culturally coded weaker and more passive. And that comes from the culture. No, it’s not remotely the same. But “doesn’t seem anything like”? I dunno about all that…

I will not be offended cause I know I’m somewhat new to this(maybe not feminism 101 but I definitely don’t have a degree yet😊)

Yo, I’m both brand ass new and not a woman. So I’ve been in ‘remedial feminism’ for, like, 2 years now, and I’ll probably stay here indefinitely 😁

@Dali

Sounds about right to me

Then I’ll trust your judgement 😊

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

RE: Sex work

So, my new job is storing crap in a giant warehouse for a ten hour shift, with items weighing up to 30 lbs because fuck the clearly superior metric system. The warehouse is approximately the size of manhattan, or it feels like, cause it takes between three and seven minutes to get from the workspace to the bathrooms, break rooms, or time clocks depending on where and what floor you’re working. Additionally, the system dings you if you take too much time doing things.

Even if it’s not your fault, like the fact that the warehouse is already at 105% capacity.

I’ve completed four days of that so far. My feet hurt like hell, as did my arms and wrists, plus a persistent headache and swelling in various areas. Oh, and my typical wide spectrum of psychological problems manifesting after ten hour shifts free from my coping mechanisms, talismans, or anything like that.

To be brutally honest, I am directly trading my physical and mental well-being for money. That is exactly what performing the work feels like.

If you consider this valid and acceptable but have problems with strippers or sex workers, that’s really on you. For not drawing the appropriate parallels. Under capitalism, workers all sell our physical and mental health for the chance to live one more day.

RE: Feminine presentation

I do what I can to present in a very feminine way. It makes me feel better. Long hair, painted nails, sometimes makeup and lipstick, shaved legs, skirts, sometimes high heels…the works. I still feel like a swamp witch, but it helps me assert my femininity.

How I feel feminine, even if it is technically absorbing bullshit ideas about what it is to be feminine (For the longest time, being harassed by men helped reinforce my femininity. Glad I grew past that.), does not affect or alter my actions or commitment to ending the patriarchy and everything that supports it.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Katie, Fran
Speaking of OT, I posted in the last open thread which seems to be defunct about having finished a short story that I’m gonna submit to a thing; I think/hope it’d be y’all’s tastes, and I’d like a few more sets of eyes on it before I actually send it in. It’s got my real name attached, so I’m leery of posting a link here, but if either of you’s interested, you can PM me on discord or email at my nym at gmx.us.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
4 years ago

@Sandra: I really hope you’re not wearing those high heels while doing that work! You have my deepest sympathies– warehouse work ground down my uncle years ago, and I’m certain contributed to his death.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
4 years ago

Here’s the main concern for me if people are singling out women who sub to male doms: if you insist that there’s something inherently patriarchal or problematic about it, you need to explain how all other forms of hetero sex are different.
Clue: they’re not. They’re just as culturally shaped and implicated.
Hence, again: none of these sexual practices are more or less feminist than the others. The logic that some are got feminism to a very bad place, way back in the ‘second wave’.

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
4 years ago

@ChimericMind

I actually lie about who I am to work. I use my deadname, still my legal name, and dress hyper-masculine for that. That’s one of the reasons work is so taxing for me mentally.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Sandra

You’re into fantasy too, yes? I couldn’t recall; same goes for you if so.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

a short story that I’m gonna submit to a thing;

I can highly recommend Dalillama’s story; especially to Mammotheers who like history and fantasy. Also the characters have cool names.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ ignoresandra

my new job is storing crap in a giant warehouse

Just stick the Ark of the Covenant on Ebay and you’ll never have to work again.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Random thought on the ridiculousness of “X is True Feminist Approved™, Y is not” – what about both X and Y? What about a switch*, or a woman who shaves her underarms but not her legs, or a woman who plays shooty-bang-bang video games but takes the occasional break from de-braining enemies to decorate her in-game son’s bedroom and wow it’s really obvious that I’m talking about myself here.

Point is. Do I get only get half True Feminist™ points, or is this an all-or-nothing deal, or what?

*Let’s just take a moment to giggle like schoolkids about Pokemon S&M and the Nintendo Switch. Those names were not focus tested and the world is greater for it.

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
4 years ago

On the topic of choices feminists make, I haven’t seen anyone share this. I found the “currents” analogy really helpful in thinking my way through it.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/choices-not-always-feminist/

had so many things that I wanted to accomplish, and now I can’t, thanks to fucking summer school.
had so many things that I wanted to accomplish, and now I can’t, thanks to fucking summer school.
4 years ago

@Chimeric Mind

Those people tend to get more furious about someone who’s 1% different from them than someone who’s 90% different from them, because when it’s 1%, it’s subject to an intellectual Uncanny Valley effect, and that’s when the screams of heresy come out. Those people are either trying to be “purer than thou” until it gets boring and they move on, or they’re lifelong true believers who insist on dividing the world ever more thinly into allies and enemies, steadily converting the former into the latter. They’ll always say they’re totally going to start making Real Changes just as soon as they can get the movement truly purified, but there’s always a new degree of heresy to be found, and new heretics to wage war against, so they spend all their lives fighting the people who could have been on their side rather the actual problems they supposedly dedicated themselves to solving.

I LOVE YOU FOREVER. Just for this statement alone. I know some of these insufferable types, and I keep struggling to find the right words to describe why they annoy me so much, and you have described them perfectly. 🙂 Thank you.

Herbert West
Herbert West
4 years ago

We should all register and make a game of writing dumber and dumberer allegories.
In fact I’m convinced someone’s already doing this – after all Conservapedia is full of trolls like that.