With Trump pulling the US out of the Paris Climate Agreement like the huge idiot he is, today seems like a good time for another Trump open thread.
Have at it! No trolls or Trump fans.
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Trump Open Thread: June 2017 End of the World Edition
@Sandra
“The democrats could be doing better. But democratic failings are inconsequential in terms of harm, in terms of demonstrated incompetence, and in terms of magnitude next to the bullshit the right wing pulls or tries to pull in every single western country.”
You’re right, the Republicans have beat me, cut an arm and leg off, and then thrown me into the swamp to drown. And as I’m there thrashing around I cry out to my supposed friends “Help me, I’m drowning”, they reply “Stop it, the person next to you wasn’t even left stumps to struggle with”. And yes, when I look next to me, I see others trying to wiggle because they don’t even have stumps. So I say, “Well save all of us, or at least save them and comfort me as I drown”. And my “friends” say, “Shut up, and stop being so selfish”.
Because that’s what you called me Sandra, right? Selfish?
In the end I agree with Dali and WWTH, I hope that the Dems become more progressive and more willing to stand up for progressive values. But also, enjoy your confusion as to why people see you all as “elitists”. You’ve all earned it.
It’s kind of like a spin on the MRA bs: “If you cared about equality, feminists,(Democrats) you’d drop everything to fight for us instead (Republicans). While I keep on trashing you.”
I called you divisive and selfish, Mrex.
Look, Mrex, we get it. You voted for Trump because ECONOMIC ANXIETY™ and are desperately trying to convince yourself that you didn’t help throw the US into civil war at best and nuclear armageddon at worst.
Well, you can stop, because you did and it’s your own damn fault. You idiot. You racist, selfish idiot.
@mrex,
And knock it off with closing your posts with snarky passive-agressive comments such as the “elitist” bullshit. I know you may not realize it, but much of the animus you’re receiving here is due to that.
@mrex
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/128/416/64e.gif
We’ve hit Anakin Skywalker levels of edge…
Notice how often coal workers are brought up in discussions of jobs and the economy despite being a small percentage of the overall population and I’m sure a pretty low percentage of poor people?
Republicans use them to justify destroying the environment and to pretend like they care about worker’s when we all know they don’t. MRAs and MGTOWs use them to pretend like only men work hard because all men slave away in coal mines while women eat bonbons in air conditioned offices. Even though they’re mostly privileged libertarians who don’t give a fuck about poor men.
I suppose it’s because they’re convenient and palatable for TV because they’re white. A poor Latina doing janitorial work or a poor black man working part time at McDonalds is not going to get much empathy from much of white America.
Meanwhile, despite the focus the right puts on them, their situation doesn’t get any better. I think if I were a resident of an economically depressed coal town I’d be pretty pissed off at being used by regressives in such a way.
Personally, I’m for universal basic income. That way no one has to rely on the jobs in their company town staying in their town. Americans would be better off asking for that than we are fighting over scraps and scapegoating each other. I don’t even see any other choice since service jobs are slowly but surely going the way of manufacturing jobs. Those Carrier jobs we discussed earlier? Those workers are going to be replaced by automation. So I don’t see how we’re going to bring those jobs back in any meaningful way either.
I like how many of us have talked about our financial difficulties and our own work on labor issues but that all went in one ear and out the other. We’re all smug elitists who don’t care about jobs and the economy because reasons.
Well, I mean, she said she was sorry for upsetting me. Btw, mrex, you didn’t “upset” me. You insulted me by ‘splaining to me what it’s like to be poor and in debt as if I don’t understand that and didn’t take that into consideration when discussing how pollution and climate change are literally killing people.
Nah, those jobs are going to Mexico.
So let’s talk a little about factory jobs. Ford has 2 large plants in Louisville. There is also a large appliance park. These companies complain constantly about not being able to find qualified workers. They resort to going to high schools to talk up how awesome factory jobs are to get the kids to want to work there. Ford in particular calls in a lot of people for interviews who don’t even bother to show up.
Note: “qualified workers.” Because factory jobs are not what they used to be. You are not putting cars together at Ford. You are tending to the robots that put cars together. Someone who barely passed high school is probably not going to be qualified, while the kids who did great are likely to go to college instead of to Ford. The Ford jobs fall into a trough where the truly qualified candidates don’t really want to do the job, while the ones who do want to do the job aren’t qualified.
It’s not like these jobs don’t exist anymore, or that all the companies want to go to Mexico. But if you can’t get qualified candidates and completely unskilled labor isn’t an option due to the nature of the work, sometimes that’s the only path open.
(P.S.: come to Louisville, it is awesome here)
I also love the fact that when you point out automation is actively putting people jobs, the regressives will counter with “somebody has to maintain them! Those displaced people can get jobs doing that!”
What, all 900 laid off are going to get jobs servicing their replacements? Then why replace them?
ETA: I see PoM addressed this. Well done.
I have seen the steel mills decimate my area when they closed down. So, they started bringing gambling boats to replace them, on the condition that a big portion of revenue goes towards the areas that the steel mills decimated, as that’s generally the area the boats are moored in.
Well, that took off, the capital of my state saw that sweet money roll in, and guess what? Oooh, special legislation is suddenly passed to override the original appropriations. The capital hijacks most of the money meant to revitalize those cities.
Oh, hey, my area is a Democratic enclave, and the rest of the state is goddamned red, so as usual, my area gets fucked hard with a cactus. Because when these boats were voted upon, downstate couldn’t have cared less because all of the problems were in Democrat territory, which was “a blight to the rest of the state”, but once they saw what a moneymaker it was, the tune changed quickly to “you’re a part of this great state, too, aren’t you? Gimme.”
I find it fucking absurd that people bitch and moan about the democrats supposedly want to keep people in some sort of welfare state, when it is overwhelmingly shown which party is actively working towards that by cutting safety nets and appropriating that money towards their own fucking agenda. It’s insidious.
Speaking as someone who’s still working class and, not too many years ago was living on $500/wk (pretax and deductions, try living on that after the deductions and taxes…) I find it laughable that mrex is talking about elitism from the left. Funny thing is that most of the people that I work with on things like this and believe as I do don’t make a heck of a lot of money and we get insulted. Politicians have more, but they always do (they wouldn’t be able to run for office if they didn’t). That isn’t what this is about.
I am not a democrat. I am a socialist. I just happen to have a clear understanding of who is trying to kill me, and who is stupid and can do much better but doesn’t cause much harm either to me or to the country.
Really, this past presidential election was a choice between “Slow and incompetent progress” and “Total fucking evil” and my country chose the former, but since the political system in America is balanced towards total fucking evil, that’s what won.
So no, if you voted for total fucking evil this past presidential election, I’m not going to hold your hand and kiss your forehead and tell you that it’s alright, mommy will make it better. Anyone the neo-nazis kill while they are in office, through denial of healthcare, through encouraging nazi terrorism, through violence against transgender people, through climate change…their blood is on your hands, and that’s something you need to find a way to recover from. You need to find a way to heal where you have caused harm, because guess what: Voting for total fucking evil causes harm.
I’m for universal healthcare, housing, food, clean water, and clean air. For existing. I think that is the minimum duty of government to its citizens.
POM,
It’s my understanding that many of the jobs were being outsourced while the ones Trump “saved” were temporary until the company was ready to replace them with automation.
@WWTH
From CNN:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/23/news/companies/carrier-layoffs/index.html
The story is actually worse than that snippet makes it seem, because automation is indeed going to replace some of the jobs that don’t go to Mexico, and an additional almost 300 are going to Mexico in July. So that’s ~600 altogether going to Mexico, and some unspecified number being replaced with automation at some unspecified point.
Peevee,
In the past, it was actually true that for every job lost to new technology, more would crop up elsewhere. People are making the assumption it’s still the case and will be forever when technology is advancing so far and fast that workers being replaced by machines now is a legit worry. But people are really in denial about it.
The sad thing is, it should be a good thing. We’re close to freeing humans from drudgery. If we implement some sort of program, like universal basic income or something similar, humans from all walks of life can be free to do meaningful work that makes use of their talents, skills, and passions instead of working shitty jobs with shitty bosses just to put food on the table.
I fear we’re headed for a lot of widespread poverty and civil unrest before we get out of the mindset that steady employment is a necessity in and of itself though.
WWTH:
Oh, I agree completely. I, too, would love to see a universal basic income implemented.
I am just very, very saddened at what the GOP and their shit policies has done to my area, while the money they stole (and yes, I think of it as theft) leaves my area as poverty-stricken and as blighted as before. That was the main purpose of my rant, really.
On the topic of a change in how we view jobs and working, I came across an article that discusses how we should change the “three stage life” model in lieu of an aging population, increased longetivity and the likelihood that people will have to work up to age 70 and beyond in order for economies and societies to still work well.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/04/job-opportunities-should-not-wither-as-we-age
Interesting but it does fail to account for a couple of things.
There are a limited number of halfway decent jobs out there. If we keep raising retirement ages, slots aren’t going to open up for younger people who are already pretty screwed these days as is. More workers competing for a shrinking job pool means working conditions are going to get shittier and shittier because basic supply and demand.
It also doesn’t take into account that working into ones seventies is going to be more difficult for some workers than others. There’s only so many years a body can hold out doing physically taxing work. A lot lower income people are forced out of work due to disability before retirement age as is.
I’m all for not automatically seeing someone as obsolete past the age of 60 but I get nervous when I see people talking about workers needing to work much longer than that. I’m afraid of a future in which some people literally work themselves to death with no retirement options while some languish with no work at all and in the meantime the rich get richer. Kind of like the gilded age.
It’s why I keep going back to the universal basic income as the best solution. People who are willing and able to work into old age can. Part time work would be more viable. People who are no longer capable of work physically would not be condemned to poverty.
Nothing is sadder to me than seeing very elderly carry out grocery workers who are 75 if they’re a day, carrying out groceries to supplement their income.
The reasons are always “I have to. Shrug.” “My pension was stolen.” (In my area, that’s a BIG one.) “My medical bills.” Always something along those lines.
Yeah, it’s really privilege blind when people are just like “tralalala, people are living longer so they’re just going to have work longer, NBD!” Alive doesn’t necessarily mean healthy and strong. A lot of higher income people have the best medical care and work jobs that aren’t physically brutal and provide ample sick leave and vacation. So they age really well and can choose whether they want to retire or keep working and continuing to work is not a massive difficulty for them. That’s a luxury not everyone has.
Yeah, it’s really privilege blind when people are just like “tralalala, people are living longer so they’re just going to have work longer, NBD!” Alive doesn’t necessarily mean healthy and strong. A lot of higher income people have the best medical care and work jobs that aren’t physically brutal and provide ample sick leave and vacation. So they age really well and can choose whether they want to retire or keep working and continuing to work is not a massive difficulty for them. That’s a luxury not everyone has.
Don’t know why that posted twice.
@PeeVee
Which is why I’ll point out that a basic income isn’t a perfect solution. It really only works in conjunction with robust public services. Better gubmint healthcare so older folks aren’t spending all their basic income on medicine. Or rent controls so people aren’t stuck with landlords who gouge knowing they can get more outta people’s UBI checks. None of this is a rebuttal to anyone, and most everyone here likely agrees, just pointing it out…
Can we frame this and hang it on the wall?
@tangentially related to mrex’s blathering about “Elitist middle-class lib’ruls”
It’s sort of ironic, really – I “Bootstrapped” (I fucking hate that word for a hundred different reasons, but just to make my point) my way back off the streets after a particularly nasty divorce left me homeless, so you’d think I’d be a Republican success story… Except for the part where I’m fully, painfully aware that if I didn’t live in Australia at the time, I wouldn’t have had the chance to even try. I didn’t work harder or deserve it more, I was just lucky enough to be living in a country with a safety net, universal health care and no Republicans to take it all away. In short, my experiences made me more left-leaning and more empathetic, not less.
You can also file this under my earlier comment about Democratic/the left’s successes being credited to Republicans/the right.
@Axe, but of course.
Universal health care goes hand in hand with that.
As does rent control, etc. (For the most part, these guys owned their own houses, but had to sell because of rising property taxes; it’s a never-ending circle of grief. Now, they’re beholden to the landlords. Sigh.)
But “muh smaller gubmint!” people seem to have a real problem with that kind of thing.