In the wake of the Portland train stabbings that left two men dead and one seriously wounded after they tried to stop a white supremacist from harassing several women, Paul Elam — still probably the best-known Men’s Rights Activist online — posted a tweet that spoke volumes — not about the incident itself, but about the utter moral bankruptcy of the Men’s Rights movement.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/868917239143178240
When other Tweeters objected, Elam doubled down and began spewing insults — aimed not just at his critics but at the murdered men themselves.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869066210964631552
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869068999577006080
In one tweet, he suggested that the victims themselves were the cause of the violence that left them dead.
https://twitter.com/anearformen/status/869064408252772354
In his capacity as a leader of what is essentially a hate movement, Elam has said many terrible things over the years — from his post suggesting that women who go home with men without wanting to have sex with them are “damn near demanding” to be raped” to a short story offering an apologia for — indeed, a glorification of — domestic abuse. These tweets, I think, rank up there with his most reprehensible writings, for two main reasons.
First, as many observers have noted, it was not “chivalry” that killed these men. It was an angry and hateful man with a knife who was harassing women on a train.
Elam thinks it unfair that the tenets of chivalry call upon men to protect women — why should men have to serve as unpaid bodyguards for women, he has often asked? What he doesn’t like to talk about is that these volunteer bodyguards aren’t protecting women from bears — there aren’t a lot of those in my neighborhood — but in the overwhelming majority of cases from other men.
There are a lot of problematic things about “white knights,” as Elam insists upon calling them, but the plain fact is that the “good men” that Elam castigates as terminally stupid would be out of a job if there weren’t so many bad men around harassing and abusing women.
Second, and perhaps more importantly, Elam is essentially declaring war on the very thing that sets us apart from brute nature — our ability to feel empathy for others, including people unlike ourselves. A man standing up for a woman who’s being harassed may or may not be engaging in an act of chivalry but it is certainly an act of altruism and basic human solidarity. It’s driven by the same empathetic and altruistic impulse that led so many non-Muslims here in the US to rush to their nearest airports to protest Trump’s Muslim ban.
This sort of cross-cultural solidarity is pretty much the only thing that can save our country from the hatred and meanness that is Trumpism. We need more empathy, not less.
Elam would rather we raise our sons not to feel this sort of empathy towards women. That’s bad enough. But he’s not the only MRA with an empathy problem. And it isn’t confined to his feelings about women.
It’s not just that MRAs are indifferent towards, if not actively hostile, towards women; they lack empathy towards boys and men as well. Indeed, in one notorious post (archived here; I wrote about it here), Elam literally told the “troubled men” who have turned to A Voice For Men for help to ““go fucking bother someone else with your problems” if they weren’t donating money to his site, which is to say him, as he keeps the donations for himself.
Even though he seems to have taken in literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations over the years, he’s never bothered to even try to set up, say, a hotline for men. Instead, he’s set himself up as a sort of ersatz internet therapist for men — he has no actual training as a therapist — literally charging the “troubled men” he claims to be an advocate for $90 an hour to talk to him on Skype.
But he’s not the only MRA who combines a hatred for women with an utter lack of interest in doing anything altruistic for their fellow men.
In the first few years of second wave feminism in the late 60s and early 70s, feminist activists set up shelters and women’s centers and countless other entities designed to benefit women in desperate need of help. In the seven years I’ve been covering the Men;s Rights movement, MRAs haven’t even set up a single hotline, much less a functional men’s shelter. The only notable MRA, er, victory? Being so obnoxious they’ve convinced numerous media sites to shut down their formerly MRA-infested comments sections.
It’s no wonder MRAs feel such hostility towards real heroes. They’re only heroes in their own minds.
@Newt: Holy cow, that’s good remembering
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmyw30T7Ve1qe6b6g.gif
@PeeVee
Eye of Newt. Ha!
@Newt
Damn, Newt, that’s good spotting even by my standards. *thumbs up*
The universal double standard of predatory people everywhere:
If the predator does something, everyone else has the burden of proving the predator is wrong
If a non-predator does something, everyone else has the burden of proving that person is right
Waaaayyyy O.T., I recall someone here has student debt? Elizabeth Warren on our side.
And once again we see feminists showing their support for male gender roles, and shaming those who refuse to be disposable protectors as cowards (haven’t changed at all from handing out white feathers during WW1, have they?). Somehow I doubt you would attack a woman who was in the same situation.
Oh wait that’s right, as weirwoodtreehugger said, saying that women should also take that protector role is misogyny. Feminism is basically chivalry all over again.
Citizen Rat,
Snerk
Fiachra,
http://i.imgur.com/9t3g4f6.gif
I’m wondering why Fiachra seems to think “protector” automatically equals “disposable.”
@ PeeVee;
Been there, done that. At a campground, two women sitting at their tent, a man yelling clever things at them. There was good distance, 100feet-ish, so no immediate danger of physical confrontation. I called the law, then I went and stood about half-way between them, non-confrontational, watching the man. When he would move to the side so he could see the women, I would move, too. When he would take a step closer, I would raise my head or cross my arms. After about 15 minutes, the sheriff arrived and escorted the man away.
In these trumpian times, this will become more common. What to do depends on the situation. Here’s some resources, older (pre-trump age), but still informative.
@Fiachra
What you should do, whenever you see people talking about how reprehensible threatening girls and murdering people, is whine about how unfair everyone is towards men, because as we all know, its all about you.
How about you go away and work on your trolling some place else, because this is pretty weak sauce. If this is the best you’ve got, you’ll need to pick a thread where there aren’t much more entertaining trolls to compare you to, because otherwise it just makes you look boring as well as stupid.
No, Troll. I’m saying that it’s the male gender who created and continues to enforce the predator/white knight dichotomy. If you don’t like it, it’s up to you to solve it, not women. When you take a stand against men acting as protectors, but excuse violent behavior in men, you are the one perpetuating the cycle of violence. Why are you expecting women to clean up men’s mess?
Um, no, we don’t. Maybe that’s what you see? But you’re wrong. And I’ve provided as much evidence as you, so, stalemate I guess?
Why in the fuck is it the responsibility of ANYONE to defuse a man who is in a murderous rage? Why is it not the responsibility of THE MAN IN THE MURDEROUS RAGE to defuse himself and act like a fucking human for once?
Oh, wait, we can’t blame the victims for the violence inflicted on them if we remember that men in murderous rages are agents and not forces of nature.
You are a complete idiot who has misunderstood everything.
@ peeps
Notice how Chessman doesn’t condone bullying, but sidled up to nightmare real quick. Nightmare literally began verbally sexual assault us and yet ………
I don’t expect chessman to stand up for women, cuz apparently that’s our job to woman up, according to him.
And yet…..during nightmares pathetic assault, Chessman was silent about literal CYBER BULLYING. He just keeps doubling down, not noticing the thread burning down around him.
@ CHESSMAN
DON’T YOU CONDEMN BULLYING? DIDN’T YOU WRITE THAT UPTHREAD? AND WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING YOU SIDED WITH NIGHTMARE.
FUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUU
Shit bags like you are easy to spot. Feel lucky that anybody talks to you on here, you fucking piece of shit.
@Weird Eddie, what you didn’t do was blame the girls. Because you’re a good person. And you’re not a selfish person.
I am asking Chessman specifically what he would have done if he were on that train, watching a fucking racist asshole berate teenagers. Because he did not only blame them, he blamed the victims in this for their own murders/assault.
As the toad Fiachra is. Because Fiachra is a selfish asshole. Who decided to come here to shit on the men he’s supposedly valiantly fighting for the rights of.
Every time I come back this thread gets longer, and the trolls less interesting.
My condolences to the families of the two men killed by the murderer and I hope the two girls targeted recover quickly. The wounds on the survivor look nasty, I hope they heal quickly.
And Paul Elam can go to hell.
@ chessman & fiachra
I’ve only once ever been involved in any ‘white knighting’ that’s involved the use of force. But that was nothing like the incident under discussion, and it had a moderately amusing outcome, so it’s not really appropriate to relate in the current thread.
But to the main point; it is true that the intervention of women can sometimes have a de-escalating effect. But that’s often down to the fact that some men won’t (publicly) hurt a woman. Masculinity and all that. But there’s plenty of wankers who will. I’m all for intervention if you feel it’s safe to do so; but I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to put themselves at risk. That applies equally to men and women. I doubt that’s an uncommon attitude, so I’m not sure there’s a culture of ‘disposability’ specifically in regards to men.
Do you have any actual evidence that there is?
I wonder why this thread has attracted so many trolls, I understand Chessman he’s been here a while, nightmare probably just choose to troll her because this was the latest article when they decided to, and Fiachra was probably just sympathetic to chessman’s viewpoint… and I’ve answered my own question.
@Axecalibur
Pounded In the Butt By David’s Banhammer.
Wow, so much happened while I was sleeping. Good morning, everybody. And I’m still just on page 7. At least 2 more pages to go!
@ Chessman, are you seriously saying that two terrified 16 year old girls who were being vilified and threatened for their race, gender and religion should have thought “maybe fawning on this man and laying our filthy black Muslim girl-paws on him will make him calm and happy”?
What in the world makes you think that would have worked out well?
Also, you have no evidence the men involved did anything aggressive or confrontational, only that they used calm, assertive words, interposed their bodies, and maybe gently nudged him. These are classic aggressive behaviour management techniques.
@PeeVee
Spot on. The problem is that many people are starting to believe their bullshit. A few days ago a guy at CNN said that the conservatives are right about the left not being actually tolerant and that really pissed me off. I know very damn well that the alt-right and all of their followers don’t give a shit about tolerance, they just want to crush the left and take power.
If the left is intolerant then what about the right wing people (all of them, not just ar) that enjoy attacking young women like Ariana and Katy during a time when discussing terrorism and helping the victims’ families should’ve been nr.1 priority?
While the rwingers were busy complaining about Ariana’s short dresses, Katy’s opinions about Islam and other stuff, Ariana was preparing a memorial concert, and other celebrities were collecting money for the victims and their families. But of course it’s the celebrities that live in a bubble and have no interest in real world problems.
If you have nothing to do but sit on your ass and complain about celebrities during a time of desperation then guess who’s the one living in a bubble here.
I hate their mf arrogant attitude.
And the exact same thing happened in this case. Shall we analyse the problem or shall we deflect, push the murders’ fault on the left and keep spewing trash about them to make us look better and tolerant?
Sorry for going off, I really needed to take this off my chest.
Has anyone else seen these write-ups about “call-out culture”? It bothers me because I feel like if we leave problematic behavior unchecked it makes any observers think everything is fine, and most of my learning about problematic behavior has been from being called out or seeing others be called out. http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/a-note-on-callout-culture/
Thoughts?
In relationships involving domestic violence between a man and a woman (I specify because this is the kind of relationship I have personal experience with) there is nothing the woman can say or do – or not say and not do – that will prevent her from being beat by a man who is set on beating her for whatever thing he counts as some sort of reason for doing so. It can be as ridiculous as not having an acceptable expression on one’s face. Sometimes the abuser will wait until nobody else is there before they start in, other times they do it while people awkwardly stand around and never do or say anything to intervene.
For the people who watched and never did a damn thing like call the cops after excusing themselves from the room, people like that are cowards and should I encounter them ever in the future I will call them that (and probably some other choice things) to their faces for all to hear. It’s one thing to be afraid and in the same room, but if you can manage to excuse yourself to another part of the house and you know what’s still going on because you can hear it through the walls and door, you can call the cops instead of taking the chance that someone will be injured so severely they go to the hospital or even winds up murdered.
And it is my ex who bears 100% of the responsibility for abusing me. He could have controlled himself, he chose *not* to. He managed to control himself many times with people and stressful situations, so it’s not like he was incapable of doing so. Like beating me, it was his choice to refrain from violence with those other people.
@Fiachra
Must be hard thinking with only two neurons. You’re clearly struggling. And btw I can assure you that everyone here would be totally ok with female passengers interveening to defend the 2 girls.
@ kupo
I can see how having a quick word with a mate who’s unintentionally done something iffy might be appropriate; but as to the article itself…
That just seems like a re-hash of the ‘you’ll be just as bad as them’ false equivalency. The tired old trope that progressives have to be the ‘nice’ ones. It’s the ‘tolerance of intolerance’ paradox again.
And apart from that, calling out plays a public function. If someone is being an ass in the public sphere, then I would suggest that this needs to be addressed in the same public sphere. You’re not just trying to correct the individual’s behaviour/attitudes (assuming you even could); you’re making a public stance that such stuff will not is not acceptable. Dealing with the problem in private just seems to normalise the behaviour and suggest that you tacitly accept it. ‘Dinner party test’ and all that.
But just my £0.016 (at current exchange rates)